Ash's Old Idle Stance, A Misunderstanding

[Fundance]

Yeah... the point is that the acrobatic stuff ninjas do would be impossible to do from the stance in the first image... just couldn't be done. I'm talking it's unviable WITHIN the world's own rules. the second image's stance would work (not irl) but it would certainly be good for a basic stance for someone who's going to do acrobatic stuff.

 

Also, it doesn't look intimidating at all... sorry but it doesn't.

And yet they do it all the time in video games thanks to superhuman speed and agility. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here when the concept itself is old hat.

 

Btw, as someone who's done taekwondo, it's not particularly hard to shift from a 'kihup' saluting stance (very square, frontal stance with feet forward used primarily before or after a presentation as a sort of neutral, formal guesture) into a proper form in a split second by taking your weight off and shifting your hips/feet back. I'm -sure- superhuman ninjas can manage it and still make it look practical.

 

And yes, I'm sorry, but it does look intimidating. It really does. It's smooth, mysterious and alien. If a ninja does that pose in a game, anime, or cheap kung fu movie you know that you're either about to fall into two halves, or he's going to divide into 3 copies of himself and kick your &#!. If you've played enough ninja games you'd understand.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance

[Tangerine]

Last of all there's difference between suspension of disbelief and something that just looks blatantly weird. I mean, it's a game right? Anything could happen... well, what if all of a sudden during Grineer mission bunch of medieval knight dudes showed up. Would certainly break your immersion even though it could somewhat be justified by the game, time tear or something like that... nevertheless it would still be weird.

 

That's a big jump from "standing in this position and then moving into combat". There's a lot of things to queue as immersion breakers before that's even considered if you want to follow this strand of logic. Like the fact that extra magazines appear out of nowhere when you reload.

[Otaiken]

That's a big jump from "standing in this position and then moving into combat". There's a lot of things to queue as immersion breakers before that's even considered if you want to follow this strand of logic. Like the fact that extra magazines appear out of nowhere when you reload.

 

Nope... it just doesn't fit. One is fine because it's sci-fi. But I'm led to believe Tenno are elite combatants.. elite combatants don't stand like that, unless there's technology that makes impractical somehow practical. Super powered suit or not this stance is impractical and doesn't fit the game at all. Meaning why would Tenno (highly trained death machines) use something this impractical over something practical? Do Tenno have sense of style or something? Since when? Tenno are efficient soldiers and efficient soldiers don't go out of their way to look badass sacrificing combat prowess in the process. It would be fine if it at least looked relaxed... but it doesn't.

 

You don't see battle droids dressing up in a red dresses do you? There has to be a point... but there's no point here. With Rhino you could at least argue that his massive shoulder and back muscles (artificial or not) are pulling his arms and shoulders that way -> hence his stance. But Ahs's stance just had NO POINT. And that is immersion breaking since Tenno are supposed to be efficient killing machines.

 

It isn't relaxed. It isn't efficient or practical. It isn't intimidating and that is assuming fear is even a factor. There certainly is no evidence of any of in-game races being afraid of anything (better AI anyone?).

 

So Tenno = efficient mercenaries, focused on fulfilling mission as quickly and efficiently as possible -> their weapons, skills and acrobatic moves all help them in this regard -> stance doesn't help with anything, it's even counterproductive -> logic chain is broken, game broke its own rules in its own world -> immersion is broken.

 

The ammo thing is there because there's a reason for it existing and there's an excuse for it existing (sci-fi). That stance has nor reason or excuse... your move.

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Tangerine]

Nope... it just doesn't fit. One is fine because it's sci-fi. But I'm led to believe Tenno are elite combatants.. elite combatants don't stand like that, unless there's technology that makes impractical somehow practical. Super powered suit or not this stance is impractical and doesn't fit the game at all. Meaning why would Tenno (highly trained death machines) use something this impractical over something practical? Do Tenno have sense of style or something? Since when? Tenno are efficient soldiers and efficient soldiers don't go out of their way to look badass sacrificing combat prowess in the process.

 

You don't see battle droids dressing up in a red dresses do you?

 

 

Ugh, you put far too much emphasis on real world situations in a fictional video game. You said it yourself, it's sci-fi. Not real life. Not to mention Ash's old stance is similar to a upstraight military posture, so yes, elite combatants do stand that way. And even if they didn't, fictional ninjas stand that way. 

 

Where are you in response to coloring Warframes bright pink? Doesn't that make them stand out in combat situations? Where are you in response to coloring ability colors? Or abilities having special effects at all which in a irl situation would bring attention to the combatant?

 

Even right now, Ash's idle would not work in the real world. His chest if puffed out but his legs are bent and bowed, technically he shouldn't even be able to stand for elongate periods of times like that, let alone fight. Using real world situations as an argumentative basis for fictional media will only act as your own folly. Yes there are certain things that should follow for immersion purposes, but you've gone too far down the rabbit hole and your arguments are clashing into each other.

[Otaiken]

You missed the point completely... I'm not talking about real world.. I'm talking about it making no sense withing the bounds of Warframe world. Also, coloring your frame is player's input.. it's not a part of the world building. Also, I can justify his new stance... bent legs are great for balance (so I have a reason for that existing) and I can provide an excuse for it existing (sci-fi, his exoskeleton can support this stance). This is all WITHING THE GAME WORLD. There always has to be a reason and an excuse... in cartoonish games fun is usually also excuse.. but not in serious games.

 

Again... that stance has no point and no excuse WITHING THE GAME WORLD ITSELF. Player's provide input, yes.. in coloring for example. But frames are blank slate... efficient pawns to do missions... they don't stand like idiots just cause...

 

BTW you always need some basic framework in your game, based on reality. Otherwise I could argue that all Tenno should be flying blobs of space-gel and fight space plankton in some nebula. Then and only then would be completely omitting any sense of realism what so ever viable, but it's not. Tenno are clearly humanoid and I could assume even have humanoid biology. So some semblance of realism is in the game whether you want it or not. 

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

It makes plenty of sense in the warframe world. It can be explained simply as such: Space ninjas.

 

We do not get to dictate how Warframes do and don't behave. They are weird alien space ninjas with crazy hi-tech suits. They can stand in whatever impractical poses they want.

 

Ninjas in games have always had a sense of style over practicality and the Tenno are no exception. This is made blatantly apparent when you stealth kill an enemy and your Tenno flourishes his sword as if it was some kind of hula hoop.

 

Hell, Ash's Bladestorm has him practically dancing around targets in a very extravegant and unecessary manner. Tenno pose dramatically after touching down from a cell on Corpus outdoor levels, drawing out the landing pose and waving their arms and everything. It's so ninja and you just don't seem to understand it. I suggest taking some time to read up on video game logic.

 

Even using the Fang, your Tenno twirls the blades in their fingers befor sheathing them. Practical? Nope, it adds an extra second or so to the time required to sheath the blade but it looks hella cool.

 

Kunai style weapons. The idle pose shows your Tenno tossing them about in an amusingly cocky manner. Trained, cold killing machines shouldn't bother to trifle with their weapons like that, and yet we do.

 

Bo staff and Amphis have a lot of unecessary twirling that has no function in attacking. It's not just for momentum either since a majority of blows with those weapons come from basic bludgeon attacks.

 

Several ground execute animations are needlessly flashy.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance

[Otaiken]

Sooo up to this point frames had basically no personality what so ever but oh so suddenly Ash is made flamboyant? So Ash is flamboyant frame? Well, then you can hardly blame someone who played Ash to this point (since frames up to this point are basically blank slates for player to project onto, just with some minor traits) for feeling a little bit upset over DE making his frame (he projected onto) into flamboyant space ninja of ultimate fabulous as opposed to badass he thought he should be.

 

So Rhino is big and bulky because.. well.. Rhino.

 

Saryn is given this tall, proud and sexy pose.. that still looks relaxed.

 

And Ash wants to be a princess... good job DE, way good job. My bad, fits the game like a glove.. really.

 

You guys seen the Volt yaoi fanfic on the net? I know what Volt idle should look like...

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

Ash has always been 'the ninja' frame. He's always been the one who most strongly embodies the ninja trope, which is essentially flamboyant and somewhat anime-campy and has been for years.

 

If you want a badass, no-nonsense frame, go play Rhino. Ash always struck me as the kind of frame people pick for style over substance.

[Otaiken]

Ninjas are flamboyant? Wow... way to take pretty much main traits of ninja and completely invert them. So instead of stealthy, unassuming, discrete, relaxed, strong, fast... we have colorful, wanting to stand out, center of attention, show-off, not relaxed and weak looking.

 

You know that Mario is not a ninja game right?

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

videogame ninjas and ninjas in mythology =/= real life ninjas.

 

You seem to be having a really hard time applying that concept...fictional ninjas are usually overglorified superhuman freaks who make things work when they normally shouldn't. This is even PARODIED in many anime ninjas, like Black Star from Soul Eater who is loud, obnoxious and blunt - or Bang Shishigami from Blazblue (who I might add, also does this pose).

 

Warframe isn't a 'serious' game. There are obvious tongue in cheek references to pop culture absolutely littered through the game already, from the way our frames move to the cheeky enemy dialogue and boss taunts.

 

Furthermore even 'serious' ninja games like Ninja Gaiden employ these stances and tropes.

 

Just be thankful Ash hasn't learned how to do the 'ninja run' yet. Hoo boy.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance

[Otaiken]

Well, certainly don't remember that being the trope from any ninja game I played. I also don't remember ninjas being flamboyant from any other medium... very acrobatic yes, but that's about it. Also, ninjas are still associated with stealth I can hardly see how you can say otherwise. And flamboyant si pretty much the opposite of stealthy.

 

But that stance doesn't even look like some of those examples you've shown me. More like ballet dancer. I mean seriously.. look at it again, there has to be picture somewhere.

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Tangerine]

You missed the point completely... I'm not talking about real world.. I'm talking about it making no sense withing the bounds of Warframe world. Also, coloring your frame is player's input.. it's not a part of the world building. Also, I can justify his new stance... bent legs are great for balance (so I have a reason for that existing) and I can provide an excuse for it existing (sci-fi, his exoskeleton can support this stance). This is all WITHING THE GAME WORLD. There always has to be a reason and an excuse... in cartoonish games fun is usually also excuse.. but not in serious games.

 

Again... that stance has no point and no excuse WITHING THE GAME WORLD ITSELF. Player's provide input, yes.. in coloring for example. But frames are blank slate... efficient pawns to do missions... they don't stand like idiots just cause...

 

BTW you always need some basic framework in your game, based on reality. Otherwise I could argue that all Tenno should be flying blobs of space-gel and fight space plankton in some nebula. Then and only then would be completely omitting any sense of realism what so ever viable, but it's not. Tenno are clearly humanoid and I could assume even have humanoid biology. So some semblance of realism is in the game whether you want it or not. 

 

1. You were talking about the real world, consistently using real world examples. What real world ninjas would do, how to enter combat from Ash's old stance in the real world etc.

 

2. The "Warframe" world is entirely dictated by DE, not you. What fits and doesn't fit is designated by them, so it's only logical that Ash's old idle would've fit in the "Warframe" world.

 

3. Coloring your warframe clashes with your insistence on immersion and proper adherence to whatever worldly logic you're touting, the same way idles do. If the way Ash stands is immersion breaking because people would notice him in a crowd, then what about a bright pink Frost who uses bright pink energy?

 

4. Try bending both legs with feet apart and standing like that for a couple minutes.

 

5. Your reason for that stance being possibly is 'exoskeleton'. Why can't you apply the same argument to his old idle? Don't be biased.

 

Your arguments are collapsing on themselves and you're constantly backpedaling. Exaggerating how Ash's old idle was immersion breaking isn't exactly helping your cause either. You say certain things break immersion, then try to justify how other mechanics that are equally immersion breaking (invisible magazines from reloads, coloring your warframe) by using sci-fi as an excuse but completely ignore applying that same point to his old idle (exoskeleton).

 

You mention how certain things would operate in real world scenarios like how real world ninjas would stand, how elite combatants would stand, how he would be noticed in crowds standing like that, then falter back and say you weren't talking about real world scenarios at all. 

 

What you're doing isn't arguing, you're just scrounging up excuses. This could all be easily cleared if the only thing you'd admit is that you don't like it, simple as that.

[Tangerine]

Well, certainly don't remember that being the trope from any ninja game I played. I also don't remember ninjas being flamboyant from any other medium... very acrobatic yes, but that's about it. Also, ninjas are still associated with stealth I can hardly see how you can say otherwise. And flamboyant si pretty much the opposite of stealthy.

 

But that stance doesn't even look like some of those examples you've shown me. More like ballet dancer. I mean seriously.. look at it again, there has to be picture somewhere.

 

Ninja Gaiden

Shinobi

Tenchu

Gray Fox/Raiden in MGS

 

Play more games.

[Fundance]

So then what about Yoshimitsu from the Soul Calibur/Tekken series? Or *shudder* Naruto? Or Raiden from the Metal Gear universe? Or Earthquake from Samurai Shodown? Or Ganford from Samurai Shodown? The aforementioned Black Star and Bang? Hotsuma from 'Shinobi'? Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden?

 

None of these famous and/or iconic ninjas from videogames and anime are in the least bit stealthy to my recollection. There are two kinds of ninja in mythology - the stealthy ninja and the fantasy ninja. Ash and most of this game adhere to the latter.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance

[Otaiken]

So if it looks stupid.. for any reason either preference or that it doesn't fit game world (from my perspective) you agree it can be immersion breaking? Than why are you trying to prove it is not immersion breaking? You just said that it can be. And if it is immersion breaking I'm justified in wanting it to be removed from the game. If I merely didn't like it, it wouldn't be problem. But I don't like it because it's immersion breaking (for me anyway) not that it is immersion breaking because I don't like it.

 

I've provided you reasons why it is immersion breaking for me. You might have higher tolerance but I don't. Hence there's no point arguing. "I don't mind and you're wrong because you mind" is not an argument. I provided reasons why it's immersion breaking and that's why I don't like it. It.looks.stupid. and that's what it comes down to. 

 

Also, I'm obviously part of the majority since it has been removed. Plus quity simply DE botched it. It doesn't even look like the trope you described.

 

EDIT: Naruto didn't stand like that xD 

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Tangerine]

So if it looks stupid.. for any reason either preference or that it doesn't fit game world (from my perspective) you agree it can be immersion breaking? Than why are you trying to prove it is not immersion breaking? You just said that it can be. And if it is immersion breaking I'm justified in wanting it to be removed from the game. If I merely didn't like it, it wouldn't be problem. But I don't like it because it's immersion breaking (for me anyway) not that it is immersion breaking because I don't like it.

 

I've provided you reasons why it is immersion breaking for me. You might have higher tolerance but I don't. Hence there's no point arguing. "I don't mind and you're wrong because you mind" is not an argument. I provided reasons why it's immersion breaking and that's why I don't like it. It.looks.stupid. and that's what it comes down to. 

 

Also, I'm obviously part of the majority since it has been removed.

 

EDIT: Naruto didn't stand like that xD

 

Because it isn't immersion breaking? Have you seen the Kogake's animations? Have you see Ash flipping around etc. in Bladestorm? This game is less grounded than you think.

 

The only reasons you've provided for it being immersion breaking is by comparing it to real life situations. You've done nothing to compare it to other items within the bubble of Warframe, and if you had done so, you would've found your point invalidated.

[Otaiken]

I essentially just made a point that it is SUBJECTIVELY immersion breaking for me (and why). And you are countering that it's for you, again, SUBJECTIVELY fine. And then you turn around and try to push your oppinion as a OBJECTIVE fact. That was the point of my previous point which you REALLY missed this time.

 

Also, I did compare it within the warframe bubble. I said I percieve Tenno as professional and efficient killing machines (with little personal traits) and that's why it makes no sense for them to be flamboyand or show-offs. Is nature of the Tenno not in-game element?

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

yeah naruto didn't stand like that but I'm sure there's at least one ninja in that show who must have at some point. Also he is pretty flamboyant. He wears -orange- for goodness sakes.

 

I agree that they might have botched Ash's stance, but saying it doesn't look like a ninja stance or that it's immersion breaking just doesn't cut it when it's obviously supposed to be that thing a lot of us know as an iconic pose.

 

Also I already gave you plenty of examples as to how the Tenno are flamboyant show-offs, not just Ash.

[Tangerine]

I essentially just made a point that it is SUBJECTIVELY immersion breaking for me (and why). And you are countering that it's for you, again, SUBJECTIVELY fine. And then you turn around and try to push your oppinion as a OBJECTIVE fact. That was the point of my previous point which you REALLY missed this time.

 

Also, I did compare it to warframe bubble. I said I percieve Tenno as professional and efficient killing machines (with little personal traits) and that's why it makes no sense for them to be flamboyand or show-offs. Is nature of the Tenno not in-game element?

 

It's only now you mention subjectivity. Don't do this, it's very typical for people in discourses to emphasize subjectivity in the later phases of arguments when they recognize the faults in their points internally. You were pretty O.K talking about it as if it were an objective fact, and that's the nature of arguments. To argue as if the point you're making is objective. Don't backpedal, and let's not sidetrack into a an entirely different branch of arguments regarding subjectivity and objectivity.

 

You made your points, I countered them with my own. Stick to your guns, don't waddle on about how you were only being opinionated.

 

I feel like I'm wasting my time arguing all this about a simple idle stance. I'll reiterate.

 

Ash's previous idle fit his character. It was not immersion breaking, especially not in considerable of the other animations and items present in the game. It is not comparable to flying goo monsters or medieval knights being in the game, that's called a hyperbole and is a weak argument.

[Fundance]

flying goo monsters would not be out of place in this game imo. And Grineer henchmen already follow a semi-medieval theme (their basic units are called Lancers and many of them use very old-school blade combat)

[Otaiken]

There's very little personality to each frame. Up to now they were essentially just suits.. blank machines fulfilling orders. Thats where all those gender switched frames topics come from. Some players percieve themselves as a person that just switches suits. Hence it makes no sense for Ash to be flamboyant since Ash doesn't exist.. he's just suit waiting to be filled. That's why it doesn't fit the game. It depends on what camp are you in. Are you in the every frame is individual and we just play as them as they go about their business. Or are you in the I'm the Tenno and switching suits camp.

 

Or do you see it like I see it. I think Tenno are just pawns, mercenaries.. fulfilling orders efficiently.. militant, ritualistic society. Some of the game elements are just for combat sake (weapons, acrobacy, abilities, etc.) some of the elements are ritualistic (stealth kills, etc.) For these Tenno it makes little sense to be flamboyant. Since Ash is not a person.. he doesn't have goals or much emotion... there's no point in him being flamboyant since he doesn't care about how he looks or seems, he just need to fulfill his mission.

 

The answer to this is NOT objective. It entirely depends on your outlook. My outlook results in this pose to be immersion breaking.

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

And THAT'S why this topic is subjective. Not because of oppinion but also because how people percieve Tenno differently. And it's DE's fault since their lore is so elementary.

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

But I listed a whole bunch of unecessarily flamboyant animations that all tenno have in one of my previous posts.

They -clearly- have some sense of style in the way they move and perform certain actions. that's because by GAME DESIGN and concept, they are based off videogame and anime ninja tropes.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance

[Otaiken]

But I listed a whole bunch of unecessarily flamboyant animations that all tenno have in one of my previous posts.

They -clearly- have some sense of style in the way they move and perform certain actions. that's because by GAME DESIGN and concept, they are based off videogame and anime ninja tropes.

 

I adressed that. There's evidence in game that Tenno practice certain rituals. The evidence of this is the Ether Sword weapons (for cleansing infested). It's both efficient combat tool and ritual item. So stealth kills might very well be ritual way of killing unaware opponent. Acrobacy has it's uses since it's good for avoiding fire and moving about quickly... co it has purpose.

 

Tenno have their masters, their code and their rituals... anything else is not important. Hence why I really doubt Tenno are emotional enough to be flamboyant, they sure have their aesthetics, but that can be ritual too (they essentially live in a big shrine to Lotus).

 

They simply could have learned the ritual way of killing enemies in their training and now they use them along with the more efficient stuff. Again, they themselves are not flamboyant... they just act according to their culture. I somewhat doubt they teach them how to stand though.

 

I actually believe there's a whole army of each frame. So there's tens or hundreads of each frame... I think of frames like classes.. roles... not individuals. So are all Ash flamboyant then?

Edited August 10, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fundance]

So what's to say that Ash standing up straight when not engaged directly in mobility/combat isn't some kind of ritual?

Which, by the way, is exactly what the 'tate' ninja stance is supposed to be in the first place.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Fundance