ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 While rummaging in the Void on a "grab and stab" mission, I was suddenly seized by a strange idea ... what do we really know about the "Primes"? On first cut, the Primes are just warframes with a fancy coat of paint and gold plated bumpers - just gaudy ornamentation to match the Orokin obsession of neutral tones and bling ... The only other difference is a bit of built in power ups for mods - but sooo what - that could be simply achieved with replay and a few forma ... While that may be true, it is clear to me that it is NOT the whole story ... In my opinion DE's crowning achievement with crafting Warframe is not aesthetic - even as brilliant as it is - nor is it the gameplay - even as awesome as THAT is ... No, for me what DE has DONE BEST is leave the much of the story about the Warframe universe UNSAID - leaving it up to the imagination and speculation of the player to "fill in the details" So ... After reading the relevant threads, I concluded that the most widely held view was that the "prime" warframe exosuit represents the pinnacle of Orokin bioweaponry and that it was probably reserved for the elite of the elite of the Tenno BUT ... what is the significance of the resemblance of the outer appearance of a "prime" warframe with that of the Corrupted? Here is one clue: the relationship between the Tenno and the Orokin was NOT a simple one ... Even though the Orokin created the Tenno, it was done so ONLY out of desperation - the necessity to survive the war with the Sentients Before the war, the Orokin feared the Tenno (ref. Mag Prime codex), so much so that they had quarantined them in the Void It was only after (apparent?) victory over the Sentients did the Orokin welcome and honor the Tenno (only to be betrayed on the imperial steps like Julius Caesar) Here is the other clue: for the "Corrupted" the "prime" device (the helmet/head dress device they wear) is not ornamentation ... it is a control harness The device provides the abandoned Orokin ship central AI to have seemingly absolute control over the "host", directing and coordinating defense against further intrusion Whether the device is a "mind control" device which directly controls the actions of the "host" or is an "indoctrination" device that exerts coercion through constant "brainwashing" is not known because we have never seen a Corrupted freed from the device ... Side note: while the net effect may not be externally distinguishable, I submit that the two modes are entirely different IN CONCLUSION: I submit that the "Prime" warframe was indeed the pinnacle of Orokin science BUT it was spurred on by their FEAR of the Tenno In short, the "Prime" is a leash ... an electronic dog collar to keep the Tenno under CONTROL I look forward to your thoughts and critiques ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorq Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 in short - the ornaments on prime parts are actually mind-controlling parts that the corrupted are currently using. Erm, not exactly wrong since there isn't a definite answer to this, but have you considered that the corrupted 'ornaments' that controls their minds are actually made by the same style of orokin construction - which cause the resemblance in the 'golden ornaments' of the prime parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zergla Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The primes are the original weapons, Tenno bases their weapons on them. The prime warframes are simply the first warframes, and the warframes are "conduits" for the Tenno's power. Some leash it would be, the Orokin were wiped out by the Tenno after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistopportunity Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 All the weapons we currently have (not Corpus or Grineer weapons) are recreations of prime weapons which during the time of the Orokin were used by everyone who used weapons basically. Like for instance Ash is a recreation of Ash Prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroFallout Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 "What is a 'Prime' really?" A miserable little pile of secrets, that's what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAYABU5A Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 "What is a 'Prime' really?" A miserable little pile of secrets, that's what. nice C:LOS ref +1 and good post OP seems legit , interesting points u have raised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ zergla ... Respectfully I submit that the descriptor "original" does not address my central point about the "prime" - that is what is their PURPOSE I reiterate that the Orokin's purpose was to control the Tenno For the Orokin civilization to reach such a level of opulence and grandeur it would have certainly mastered the most essential aspect of CONTROL To put it another way ... you don't get to the top by being a dummy Thus, Tenno = weapon, weapon needs "safety", Prime = "safety" NOW regarding your point of how could the Tenno "remove the safety" THAT'S is the REAL question ... So permit some wild speculation: the Tenno GOT HELP Help from whom then? More speculation: the Sentients Why would the Tenno double cross their "creators", their "masters", their "fathers/mothers"? More speculation: because it is human nature to break away from home, become an individual, to be free ... Otherwise, it could be no more complicated that any SMART dog can break it's leash and any mistreated dog can bite it's owner ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatanaWielder Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 This is great! If only we had a bit more lore. Also, take a look at this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170395-a-great-conspiracy/ it might be of your interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) @ sorq ... Yes! The Orokin ship AI would have manufacturing/engineering resources to keep itself in such pristine repair ... In fact, for the Orokin to reach such a level of "high civilization" much of the manual labor would be either automated or done by slave/drones As a side note: recall Excalibur's codex entry of how the Sentients used the Orokin technology against them WHAT IF these "abandoned" Orokin ships "lost" in the Void were actually scrapped by the Orokin before the Tenno revolt because their ship AI had been over run by a Sentient AI (like in Halo where Covenant ships could taken over by Alliance AIs?) Edited July 10, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) I don't think the Tenno could even be controlled. The connection and apparent bond they have with the Technocyte virus that stops them from being infested is possibly the same thing that stops them from being collared by a Neural Sentry. And if they could be controlled, how did they betray the orokin, y'know? If they had to break free of its control, they would have to not only stay free of it, but they would also have to keep it secret (possibly difficult; given the orokin's technological superiority either a failsafe or a loss-of-control alert would likely be implemented) and even then, all the tenno would have had to break free, and all be free at once, in order to betray the orokin. Even the very existence of the stalker raises questions; Were the tenno always acting of their own free will, and he took it upon himself to enact vengeance? Or is he still controlled, and forced to endlessly enact vengeance as a result of some 'broken record' AI's orders? Edited July 10, 2014 by AdunSaveMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ Metrofallout ... Ha! That's really funny! I agree +1 ... Even so, for me it is EXACTLY those "pile of little secrets" that makes Warframe INTELLECTUALLY stimulating and not just another pretty "shoot an slash em up" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RespectTheInternet Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ Metrofallout ... Ha! That's really funny! I agree +1 ... Even so, for me it is EXACTLY those "pile of little secrets" that makes Warframe INTELLECTUALLY stimulating and not just another pretty "shoot an slash em up" Stimulating is not the word I would use.... more like "frustrating" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zergla Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) @ zergla ... Respectfully I submit that the descriptor "original" does not address my central point about the "prime" - that is what is their PURPOSE I reiterate that the Orokin's purpose was to control the Tenno For the Orokin civilization to reach such a level of opulence and grandeur it would have certainly mastered the most essential aspect of CONTROL To put it another way ... you don't get to the top by being a dummy Thus, Tenno = weapon, weapon needs "safety", Prime = "safety" Why would we be using the Prime stuff if it puts us under Orokin control? The Neural Sentry that controls the Corrupted is still around, so wouldn't using the Primes be one hell of a risk? NOW regarding your point of how could the Tenno "remove the safety" THAT'S is the REAL question ... So permit some wild speculation: the Tenno GOT HELP My point was that maybe the primes weren't intended to be safeties. Help from whom then? Some would say the Lotus, it does make sense. More speculation: the Sentients Why would the Tenno double cross their "creators", their "masters", their "fathers/mothers"? Because they were forced into their roles. Ember lore indicates that they were sent to the Void as children. They fought the Sentients because they were a threat to themselves as well as the Orokin. Working with the Orokin would improve their chances of survival, and when the threat was removed the moved on for revenge. More speculation: because it is human nature to break away from home, become an individual, to be free ... Otherwise, it could be no more complicated that any SMART dog can break it's leash and any mistreated dog can bite it's owner ... But not every dog across the universe at the same time. EDIT: I like your tone. Polite and humble, that's rare in this day and age. As for the Primes purpose: conduit for the power of the Tenno. Think of it as sun light. Without anything to focus it, the sunlight goes everywhere it can. Focus it through a magnifying glass and suddenly you can make fire. Edited July 10, 2014 by zergla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynin Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 BUT ... what is the significance of the resemblance of the outer appearance of a "prime" warframe with that of the Corrupted? Here is one clue: the relationship between the Tenno and the Orokin was NOT a simple one ... Even though the Orokin created the Tenno, it was done so ONLY out of desperation - the necessity to survive the war with the Sentients Before the war, the Orokin feared the Tenno (ref. Mag Prime codex), so much so that they had quarantined them in the Void It was only after (apparent?) victory over the Sentients did the Orokin welcome and honor the Tenno (only to be betrayed on the imperial steps like Julius Caesar) Here is the other clue: for the "Corrupted" the "prime" device (the helmet/head dress device they wear) is not ornamentation ... it is a control harness The device provides the abandoned Orokin ship central AI to have seemingly absolute control over the "host", directing and coordinating defense against further intrusion Whether the device is a "mind control" device which directly controls the actions of the "host" or is an "indoctrination" device that exerts coercion through constant "brainwashing" is not known because we have never seen a Corrupted freed from the device ... Side note: while the net effect may not be externally distinguishable, I submit that the two modes are entirely different IN CONCLUSION: I submit that the "Prime" warframe was indeed the pinnacle of Orokin science BUT it was spurred on by their FEAR of the Tenno In short, the "Prime" is a leash ... an electronic dog collar to keep the Tenno under CONTROL I look forward to your thoughts and critiques ... I really like this version. Sounds about right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynin Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 EDIT: I like your tone. Polite and humble, that's rare in this day and age. As for the Primes purpose: conduit for the power of the Tenno. Think of it as sun light. Without anything to focus it, the sunlight goes everywhere it can. Focus it through a magnifying glass and suddenly you can make fire. ... and here comes Focus system with its Lenses ... wow, all this stuff just fits together very well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ AdunSaveMe ... Unquestionably the Tenno endowed with the warframe are incredibly powerful but that NEED NOT make them "uncontrollable" ... Consider again what the Orokin had achieved ... an empire the likes that Earth may NEVER see Consider the complexity of such a powerful society ... billions upon billions of people, armies of "civil servants" and bureaucrats, mountains of regulations and legal red tape No, if there is ONE thing about Orokin society we can be TOTALLY certain of it would be that they had "control" down pat ... Therefore, the mere possibility of intentionally creating something that they could not - or at least didn't BELIEVE that they could - control would go against their psyche, their being in a way that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to even conceive it much less build it In defense of your position, I agree with you that the belief of ABSOLUTE control is delusional but hey ... only the delusional think big enough to dream of building an empire Final point: the similarity between DE's warframe characters and Yoshiki Takaya's Guyver is unmistakable and it is probably not coincidental that for Takaya "guyver" meant "out of control" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somedude1000 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Primes int he community though, tend to be a sign of dedication to the game, either through bein willing to buy them using IRL money, or through hunting hem down in the void. Or maybe that's just what I think, but hey, the idea of dedication to the cause is kinda what the the Tenno are about, at least when the cause is the Lotus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) @ zergla ... I appreciate and commend you for your remark regarding politeness Aside from having been a moderator on a very popular site dedicated to PC game modding, I remain steadfast that ideas are best shared with a smile and an open mind Now to your ideas: Question 1: Why would we be using prime stuff if it puts us under Orokin control? Answer 1A: Good point! Maybe we don't?! Meaning some players (not me) shun using the primes because of not wanting to expend platinum or "farm and grind" Answer 1B: Good point! But APPARANTLY we can use a Prime suit and not be taken over by the Neural Sentry. Now why we aren't is NOT known. Speculation: The "abandoned" Orokin ship AI is not running the same "software" as the "original" prime suits. Why? Because the ship has been CORRUPTED too! Corrupted how? Again, Speculation: By the Sentients Assertion 1: Some would say the Lotus Answer: Agreed! In fact - drum roll please - more Speculation: Lotus IS a Sentient ... or at least some proxy of one Assertion 2: Because they were forced into their roles ... for revenge Answer: Agreed! BUT, consider the following: 1.) The Stockholm Syndrome - where kidnap victims eventually assume the psyche of their captors/tormentors, 2.) Revenge is emotion (anger) wrapped into an ethic - a moral system (justice) ... just how will poisoned (by Void "radiation") and sickened (by Technocyte Virus) and brainwashed (Orokin control) KIDS learn about "justice"? Speculation: the "kids" got HELP from someone other than themselves or the Orokin (unless there was a schism in the Orokin world where their was political intrigue going on ... Edited July 10, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ Somedude1000 ... Agreed! The Primes indeed are a "business model" as well as a mutual "thank you" And I, for one, have plied many a coin to the realm for those shinny buckets ... BUT ... what is their "story" INSIDE the warframe "story"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 This thread looks like random philosophy class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 This thread looks like random philosophy class. Speculation is bestulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyTrooper Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Whether the device is a "mind control" device which directly controls the actions of the "host" or is an "indoctrination" device that exerts coercion through constant "brainwashing" is not known because we have never seen a Corrupted freed from the device ... Side note: while the net effect may not be externally distinguishable, I submit that the two modes are entirely different Haha, Mass Effect player on the radar :v Here is the other clue: for the "Corrupted" the "prime" device (the helmet/head dress device they wear) is not ornamentation ... it is a control harness Well, if the corrupted are indoctrinated, so the Prime Warframe can be too, time to put Vanguard/Thrak helmet back on my Rhino Prime hehe hehehe. Serious talk now, the orokin is "dead", so the Prime helmets are corrupted, and this would explain why the Prime Warframes gain full energy when are close to the Void Traps, not only because they are pure Orokin technology, but because, for some reason, the Orokin AI "help" the Prime because of indoctrination, because the AI recognize us as "friends" (more about slaves :v). Really nice thread. keep up the good work. Edited July 10, 2014 by Victor2308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zergla Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) @ zergla ... I appreciate and commend you for your remark regarding politeness Aside from having been a moderator on a very popular site dedicated to PC game modding, I remain steadfast that ideas are best shared with a smile and an open mind Agreed, Insults and hostility will get a debate nowhere. Now to your ideas: Question 1: Why would we be using prime stuff if it puts us under Orokin control? Answer 1A: Good point! Maybe we don't?! Meaning some players (not me) shun using the primes because of not wanting to expend platinum or "farm and grind" But what about the once that are using the primes? We can't see any sign of them going bat-S#&$ and being taken over. Answer 1B: Good point! But APPARANTLY we can use a Prime suit and not be taken over by the Neural Sentry. Now why we aren't is NOT known. Speculation: The "abandoned" Orokin ship AI is not running the same "software" as the "original" prime suits. Why? Because the ship has been CORRUPTED too! Corrupted how? Again, Speculation: By the Sentients Or it might be because the primes weren't intended as shackles to begin with. Though your point about the ship being corrupted makes sense, it could even be the reason they were sent to the Void. To separate a sick sheep from the herd, so to speak. Assertion 1: Some would say the Lotus Answer: Agreed! In fact - drum roll please - more Speculation: Lotus IS a Sentient ... or at least some proxy of one She very well could be, Shame we don't know any of her backstory. Assertion 2: Because they were forced into their roles ... for revenge Answer: Agreed! BUT, consider the following: 1.) The Stockholm Syndrome - where kidnap victims eventually assume the psyche of their captors/tormentors But do the Tenno feel fear and sympathy? Can they feel anything, or do they think of everything analytically and logically? If so, they might have thought of the Orokin as a potential threat. A threat to great to leave around. The empire was weakened after the war, striking then would make perfect sense, if they wished to eliminate the threat with minimum casualties. 2.) Revenge is emotion (anger) wrapped into an ethic - a moral system (justice) ... just how will poisoned (by Void "radiation") and sickened (by Technocyte Virus) and brainwashed (Orokin control) KIDS learn about "justice"? Speculation: the "kids" got HELP from someone other than themselves or the Orokin (unless there was a schism in the Orokin world where their was political intrigue going on ... They were kids, not infants. Depending on their age, they might have developed that basic sense of justice if they lived normally in the orokin society. Kids get their morals pretty early. I should know, I've been one, and I remember thinking in terms of "eye for an eye" for a pretty long time. If they grew up in the Void with that thinking, with no outside influences, it might have stuck with them until they grew up and were thrown into the war. If they were slaves they might have been influenced by other slaves that were angry with their tormentors. When they were sent to the Void that anger stayed with them and grew, again with no outside influences, and when they were thrown into the war they might have realized that the Sentients were the greater threat and saved the Orokin for later. Edited July 10, 2014 by zergla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 @ KatanaWielder ... +1 for the link - REALLY great reading - STRONGLY recommended @ Victor2308 ... Assertion 1: Haha, Mass Effect on the radar Answer: Haha! You got me! BUT ... it was only after reading your remark that I remembered the "Geth" story. At the time when I made that post I was just crunching ideas. Still, your comparison is entirely valid Assertion 2: If the corrupted are indoctrinated, so the Prime Warframe can be too Answer: Valid point but consider the following analogy: I have a PC. It runs DOS 6.2. You have a PC. It runs Win7. Same "hardware", different "software", absolutely NOTHING in common. So the Prime Warframe need not be "enabled" to communicate with the "Corrupted" Orokin ship AI/Neural Sentry Assertion 3: The Orokin is "dead" Answer: Their civilization collapsed and their royalty/highest leaders murdered by the Tenno (at least at the Terminus event - maybe the slaughter was carried out over the entire system like Vader's rampage at the Jedi Temple) BUT that need not mean that ALL of the Orokin are "dead". The simplest answer could be staring us right in the face ... IF the Orokin were just humans who had built a grand civilization, then the purely human remnants who still remain (including the Crimson Tide?) are "Orokin" - or at least their direct decendants Assertion 4: (since the Orokin are dead) the Prime helmets are corrupted Answer: Mmmm ... Interesting take on it - has a real satisfying "of yeah, sure" feeling to it. BUT ... if as you claim they are all dead, then anything that had "smart technology" built into - i.e. some kind of limited AI controlling system - including the Prime weapons would be "corrupted". Meaning that only an Orokin could use a "Prime Weapon" or a full fledged Orokin proxy - i.e. a Tenno outfitted with a Prime suit - could Assertion 5: Would explain why the Prime Warframes gain full energy when are close to the void traps Now here is something I don't know a thing about ... Are you saying that the Void makes a Prime stronger? @ Robodoge ... Thanks for the "keep it real" post If by "philosophy" you mean its original meaning of "love of truth" - meh, more like "I dig wiggin' out on cool ideas" If by "class" you mean "I teacher - you student" then Hells to the no ... I am here to just have fun And finally, if you mean by my style of "Assertion/Question/Answer" in responding to other's posts, the answer is still no - no, this isn't meant to be class ... its just the way I find it convenient to keep my own thinking straight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 frankly no one but de really knows, since if you read the mag described it talks like mag was prime, but eculs described just says he was the first. my guess is the primes are what happened when the oriken try the corrupt the tenno but they fight back and take control leaving there free will unlike the void creaters we fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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