Buff On Braton Puts Grakata And Burston Into A Bad Spot

[Tyrian3k]

The Grakata doesn't need more crit, in fact, that's part of why it's so bad, DE doesn't seem to realize how bad crit is. It's current 7.5% chance for 100% extra crit damage translates to 0.675 extra damage per shot, increasing it's crit chance to 12.5% would only increase this to 1.125, while 15% would only increase it to 1.35. It honestly doesn't matter how much you buff crit on it, between relying on RNG, and how weak it is, it will never be worth it.

 

Add crit mods to it and you have a lot of crits with a lot of bonus damage. 15% chance would be increased to 32.5% chance and 200% crit damage would be increased to 440% crit damage. Like that the crit-mods would give the Grakata a bonus damage of 103.5%. If that's nothing for you, then I don't know...

 

 

They are tier one weapons so they should be bad. However, the burstron has always been pretty horrible in my opinion, an increase in it's overall accuracy (reduce the derptastic spread) would go a long way in brining it back up to par in my opinion.

 

Burston and Braton are Tier 1, the Grakata isn't, not that that would mean anything in terms of balancing.

 

We have to remember, the braton is the starter weapon. It should by all means be the worst weapon in the game. Something has to be. 

 

We aren't talking about the MK1-Braton.

[Xrylene]

Add crit mods to it and you have a lot of crits with a lot of bonus damage. 15% chance would be increased to 32.5% chance and 200% crit damage would be increased to 440% crit damage. Like that the crit-mods would give the Grakata a bonus damage of 103.5%. If that's nothing for you, then I don't know...

 

Sure, you could do that, and use up 18 capacity and two slots to do 13.5% more damage than a maxed multishot mod, costing only one slot and 15 capacity, which is slightly better. I'll admit, if there was ever a gun were you could barely use crit, it would be the Grakata, however I'm not sure you get why I say it's so bad.

 

Here's the thing, we have two stats that almost no guns or melee weapons can make use of due to it being so bad. This same stat performs the exact same function as % damage increases(Serration) and multishot mods, except it's random. While this means if you fire enough shots, over time your DPS will have an average increase, this also means that it can't be relied on in shorter scenarios, like burst fire, or gunning down a few enemies. Let me ask you this, and consider it carefully. Would you rather have ~100% bonus damage over a long period, with spikes and periods of not getting it due to RNG, or ~100% bonus damage all the time?

 

Remember that increasing the base damage of the Grakata will in turn increase every mod applied, especially due to Serration and multishot. Max both of those, and 1 extra base damage translates to 5 extra damage per shot. If fire rate is to be believed, the Grakata fires 20 shots per second, so this adds up to 100 extra damage per second from a 1 base damage increase. I'd say that's an appreciable difference, wouldn't you?

 

Regardless, the Grakata serves no function. The Braton does more damage and is more accurate, the Gorgon does more damage, DE needs to decide what the Grakata's role is. And no, "crit" is not a role, it is a method, however terrible or unreliable, of accomplishing a role.

 

 

Edit: Just realized, you said 15% base crit, last I checked the Grakata has a 7.5% crit chance, unless the wiki has not been updated properly. If it indeed is 7.5%, then that in turn makes that damage boost you list much lower. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use 18 capacity and two slots for ~50% more damage, especially when it doesn't apply on every shot.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Xrylene

[Vitriolic_Crux]

Yeah the Grakata still has 7.5% base crit. And yeah it should definitely have some sort of extra attribute to make it more attractive as a weapon since there's no point in using it given the other automatic primaries. Maybe something like with certain melee weapons, say it does 25-30% more damage to Infested or Corpus since its a Grineer weapon. Maybe let it do double or triple damage to shields.

[Tyrian3k]

Sure, you could do that, and use up 18 capacity and two slots to do 13.5% more damage than a maxed multishot mod, costing only one slot and 15 capacity, which is slightly better. I'll admit, if there was ever a gun were you could barely use crit, it would be the Grakata, however I'm not sure you get why I say it's so bad.

Here's the thing, we have two stats that almost no guns or melee weapons can make use of due to it being so bad. This same stat performs the exact same function as % damage increases(Serration) and multishot mods, except it's random. While this means if you fire enough shots, over time your DPS will have an average increase, this also means that it can't be relied on in shorter scenarios, like burst fire, or gunning down a few enemies. Let me ask you this, and consider it carefully. Would you rather have ~100% bonus damage over a long period, with spikes and periods of not getting it due to RNG, or ~100% bonus damage all the time?

Remember that increasing the base damage of the Grakata will in turn increase every mod applied, especially due to Serration and multishot. Max both of those, and 1 extra base damage translates to 5 extra damage per shot. If fire rate is to be believed, the Grakata fires 20 shots per second, so this adds up to 100 extra damage per second from a 1 base damage increase. I'd say that's an appreciable difference, wouldn't you?

You assume a damage increase of +400% by Serration and Multishot. Good. Grakata has 180 DPS at base, which means 900 DPS with those mods.

If you add crit mods to that you bring it to ~1800. (Assuming the crit chance would be buffed to 15%)

You completely disregard the fact that you can put all of those mods on the Grakata at the same time. There is no "either this or that".

Use Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike and Vital Sense together with the element that is best against the enemy you want to fight and you'll be better off than using 2 additional elements that deal reduced damage or at least no bonus damage to said enemy.

 

Regardless, the Grakata serves no function. The Braton does more damage and is more accurate, the Gorgon does more damage, DE needs to decide what the Grakata's role is. And no, "crit" is not a role, it is a method, however terrible or unreliable, of accomplishing a role.

I'd say the Grakata should be a weapon that can kill faster than both of them at short ranges. It essentially just needs to outdamage a Braton for this since the Gorgon loses a lot of time due to spin-up.

 

Edit: Just realized, you said 15% base crit, last I checked the Grakata has a 7.5% crit chance, unless the wiki has not been updated properly. If it indeed is 7.5%, then that in turn makes that damage boost you list much lower. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use 18 capacity and two slots for ~50% more damage, especially when it doesn't apply on every shot.

Read my first post again. 15% is the crit-chance that I suggest for the Grakata.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Tyrian3k

[MoonicusMaximus]

Remember that increasing the base damage of the Grakata will in turn increase every mod applied, especially due to Serration and multishot. Max both of those, and 1 extra base damage translates to 5 extra damage per shot. If fire rate is to be believed, the Grakata fires 20 shots per second, so this adds up to 100 extra damage per second from a 1 base damage increase. I'd say that's an appreciable difference, wouldn't you?

 

Regardless, the Grakata serves no function. The Braton does more damage and is more accurate, the Gorgon does more damage, DE needs to decide what the Grakata's role is. And no, "crit" is not a role, it is a method, however terrible or unreliable, of accomplishing a role.

 

Question: On the Grakata, would you use a shock damage mod during an infested mission over a crit mod? Taking into consideration that a majority of Infested units are immune to lightning damage, but take full damage from regular white damage and, in turn, critical damage?

 

Likewise, fire damage mod during a Corpus mission? As all Corpus units receive half damage from fire damage sources, and on those same areas take full damage from white, normal sources.

 

Slapping on every damage mod might sound like a more effective way to increase damage, but white damage is not mitigated by armor at nearly the same rate as elemental damage is on certain enemy types. The reduced effectiveness of your elemental damage mods effectively wastes the fusion power required on the weapon for a reduced effect when it could potentially be used with critical chance and damage mods for a potentially greater effect.

 

I don't know the numbers myself, but it is something to consider. If you were to utilize crit mods and only specialize in elemental damage that is greatest against the enemy you face, would it be better than slapping all damage mods on there, even if the damage mods only add a grand total of 1-6 damage per shot, when I've seen frequent crits go from 100 to at least 250?

 

I do agree that in comparison to some other guns the Grakata feels a bit underwhelming, but I also believe that bumping up the crit rate even further could make the gun a much more interesting alternative than simply upping its base damage.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Xrylene]

Part of the message I'm trying to convey here, is that crit is redundant as well as weak. It performs the same function as multishot and serration, except it's random. We don't need randomness, and we don't need a third mod that just multiplies your normal damage. Especially when it is also ineffective on the vast majority of weapons, and as noted before, is not reliable.

 

I'm just going to say this. What about upping it's crit rate makes it interesting? You are just buffing it's damage in a random manner rather than a fixed, consistent one. Are you just trying to say you like it to be random? Because that's all I'm getting out of that, at this point.

[Grilleds]

Keep in mind the Braton has 45 bullet magazine, does the Snipetron's damage in 5 shots, has decent accuracy, and rather absurd DPS even before mods are installed. 

[Namacyst]

Imho the Braton buff was unnecessary and only a result of continuous whining by the newcomers not owning the Braton Vandal. Before Braton was a choice of several guns to use because it wasn't that much better than other guns of the same "category" but now it stands out too much.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Part of the message I'm trying to convey here, is that crit is redundant as well as weak. It performs the same function as multishot and serration, except it's random. We don't need randomness, and we don't need a third mod that just multiplies your normal damage. Especially when it is also ineffective on the vast majority of weapons, and as noted before, is not reliable.

 

I'm just going to say this. What about upping it's crit rate makes it interesting? You are just buffing it's damage in a random manner rather than a fixed, consistent one. Are you just trying to say you like it to be random? Because that's all I'm getting out of that, at this point.

 

Crit damage is exciting. It performs the same function as other damage mods but through a different manner. On the Grakata, it's used to better effect as it's the only weapon that has a 200% crit damage bonus compared to other weapons' 150%. You keep acting as though you need to choose either or, but you can have multishot, serration and crit mods, while still having room to specialize in elemental damage types and utility mods. The Grakata doesn't need fire rate mods, or magazine capacity mods like other weapons do, leaving room for more damage or whatever you so choose.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Dasmir]

Grakata with 20% critical chance base.. now that is ANOTHER grakata !

[Xrylene]

Crit damage is exciting. It performs the same function as other damage mods but through a different manner. On the Grakata, it's used to better effect as it's the only weapon that has a 200% crit damage bonus compared to other weapons' 150%. You keep acting as though you need to choose either or, but you can have multishot, serration and crit mods, while still having room to specialize in elemental damage types and utility mods. The Grakata doesn't need fire rate mods, or magazine capacity mods like other weapons do, leaving room for more damage or whatever you so choose.

 

I see arguing with you people is meaningless then, you simply like crit and don't care if it's bad design, or that it is terrible on the vast majority of things. Because you have one gun where it's barely useful, you're going to defend it until the end of time, even if that gun itself is also kind of bad and in need of design help.

 

Your statement on either or shows to me that you don't get it. The reason why I don't list crit alongside serration and multishot, is because I, and many other people judging by the anti-crit thread, do not think crit should be random, and thus it's current state should be removed from the game. However, it's people like you that find it "exciting" that prevent this from happening, because for some reason I guess some people REALLY like it when they see tons of little numbers and the occasional big one.

 

In the past, I've even suggested two alternatives, one clearly better for semi automatics, and the other for automatic weapons. The new critical damage mod would add bonus damage to headshots versus Corpus and Grineer, and limbshots versus Infested, while the automatic weapon mod would feature steadily increasing damage if focusing on the same target, with a cap to prevent making bosses a cakewalk. Both of those options are far more "exciting" than crit, because YOU have the power to make them work, not the game. If you want to use the headshot critical damage, then you know you're going to have to aim well to make it worth it, if you want to use the increasing damage on target, you'll know you're going to have to balance burst fire and bullet streaming to bring enemies down fast.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I see arguing with you people is meaningless then, you simply like crit and don't care if it's bad design, or that it is terrible on the vast majority of things. Because you have one gun where it's barely useful, you're going to defend it until the end of time, even if that gun itself is also kind of bad and in need of design help.

 

Crits aren't bad design. Just because the damage is derived by inherent chance doesn't make it an awful mechanic, it just makes it a slightly risky one. If you don't like having the varying factors playing in or out of your favor in the game, then this mod isn't meant for you and you are fully capable of ignoring it, because by doing so, nothing happens to you and you can continue on your merry way. I'm not saying the Grakata doesn't need any buffs; I wouldn't mind more crit because that it what this weapon appears to be built to appeal to, people who like the idea of critical chance with their normal number games.

 

Your statement on either or shows to me that you don't get it. The reason why I don't list crit alongside serration and multishot, is because I, and many other people judging by the anti-crit thread, do not think crit should be random, and thus it's current state should be removed from the game. However, it's people like you that find it "exciting" that prevent this from happening, because for some reason I guess some people REALLY like it when they see tons of little numbers and the occasional big one.

 

The fact that you dislike something doesn't give any substantial reason for it to be removed. Especially considering you aren't forced to use it. It's obvious that the idea of the Grakata, a weapon that delivers small numbers at an incredibly fast rate with, when specialized, frequent critical hits. I've been using my Grakata off and on since release, and just an hour or so ago, I was running a Xini and shredded a 70 Toxic Ancient apart; I had an unusually high number of crits and as a result the damned thing just melted away in a surprisingly short amount of time, faster than I would have killed it with my Braton Vandal... maybe not my Hek (because, it's Hek, whatevs). It was very satisfying, and it actually happens pretty often; when specialized for it, the Grakata crits are very noticeable. And considering that my normal non-crit damage doesn't suffer all that much since I could pass up on specializing in lightning damage (due to Infested immunity), I picture that as a good situation.

 

In the past, I've even suggested two alternatives, one clearly better for semi automatics, and the other for automatic weapons. The new critical damage mod would add bonus damage to headshots versus Corpus and Grineer, and limbshots versus Infested, while the automatic weapon mod would feature steadily increasing damage if focusing on the same target, with a cap to prevent making bosses a cakewalk. Both of those options are far more "exciting" than crit, because YOU have the power to make them work, not the game. If you want to use the headshot critical damage, then you know you're going to have to aim well to make it worth it, if you want to use the increasing damage on target, you'll know you're going to have to balance burst fire and bullet streaming to bring enemies down fast.

 

I don't disagree that those mods might be interesting and fun. They do sound like something I would look into.

 

But it's still not a valid reason to just simply remove crit chance from the game.

Edited May 8, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Rabidbluedeath]

It could use a buff but I don't feel like the Grakata is useless. I will admit I couldn't stand it for awhile, but I finally maxed Point Strike and have 1 more point in Crit DMG (cant remember name) and its pretty fun to use at close-mid range (you notice a huge difference once the crit dmg starts to upgrade). Its not all that inaccurate in very short bursts (~1 second) and if you can reliably head shot it does take most enemies in the game down quickly. I haven't used it on anything harder than Europa so I can't deny it might suck on the most difficult planets but so far its far from useless. I do notice sometimes the RNG just isn't with me, or is. I average 2-5 enemies a clip based on how the dice rolls but it has taken full cips just for one if im really unlucky. I haven't leveled the Braton yet, my Burston is 30 and so is my Latron. I'm not going to lie and say it feels the strongest but it is the most fun of the 3 (barely above Latron for me).

 

As for the buff I'd focus more on Crit DMG than chance. Its 200% right now with a base of 9. Compared to the Braton (what most people compare it to) of 150% and 20 Base. So the Grakata gets 18 DMG a crit and the Braton gets 30 DMG a crit and this is where I see a problem Shouldn't the weapon that focuses on crits do MORE damage when it crits than the others? or at least even damage? My best idea to make it competitive is give it 10 Base and 300% crit dmg to even it out and leave crit chance the same. It would be more focused on what they want and I would think the increased damage would make it even more viable/attractive as a weapon.

[MoonicusMaximus]

It could use a buff but I don't feel like the Grakata is useless. I will admit I couldn't stand it for awhile, but I finally maxed Point Strike and have 1 more point in Crit DMG (cant remember name) and its pretty fun to use at close-mid range (you notice a huge difference once the crit dmg starts to upgrade). Its not all that inaccurate in very short bursts (~1 second) and if you can reliably head shot it does take most enemies in the game down quickly. I haven't used it on anything harder than Europa so I can't deny it might suck on the most difficult planets but so far its far from useless. I do notice sometimes the RNG just isn't with me, or is. I average 2-5 enemies a clip based on how the dice rolls but it has taken full cips just for one if im really unlucky. I haven't leveled the Braton yet, my Burston is 30 and so is my Latron. I'm not going to lie and say it feels the strongest but it is the most fun of the 3 (barely above Latron for me).

 

As for the buff I'd focus more on Crit DMG than chance. Its 200% right now with a base of 9. Compared to the Braton (what most people compare it to) of 150% and 20 Base. So the Grakata gets 18 DMG a crit and the Braton gets 30 DMG a crit and this is where I see a problem Shouldn't the weapon that focuses on crits do MORE damage when it crits than the others? or at least even damage? My best idea to make it competitive is give it 10 Base and 300% crit dmg to even it out and leave crit chance the same. It would be more focused on what they want and I would think the increased damage would make it even more viable/attractive as a weapon.

 

Your comparison is kind of flawed, as the Grakata fires much more in less time than the Braton, and also crits a lot more often. As it stands right now, Grakata shots do already do more per crit than others, the number is just smaller due to the incredibly fast fire rate.

 

And I wouldn't be against boosting damage, it is one of my favorite guns, I'd love to see it do better in the critical damage department. But DE would need to take care not to break it, because as it stands right now the Grakata is a very well-placed sidegrade to a Braton or Burston, in my experience.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Your comparison is kind of flawed, as the Grakata fires much more in less time than the Braton, and also crits a lot more often. As it stands right now, Grakata shots do already do more per crit than others, the number is just smaller due to the incredibly fast fire rate.

 

And I wouldn't be against boosting damage, it is one of my favorite guns, I'd love to see it do better in the critical damage department. But DE would need to take care not to break it, because as it stands right now the Grakata is a very well-placed sidegrade to a Braton or Burston, in my experience.

Mostly true, I think you meant to say less per crit than others but crits more often. Unless my math is off, but from what I read on the wiki it does 18 critical dmg without mods, thats not even as strong as a regular Braton round. Hence the Crit dmg increase, the numbers were a suggestion not the hard numbers I would like to see. I think DE envisioned the Grakata as a weapon that relies on crits to do decent damage. So it makes more sense the crits should be stronger than the other weapons, at least to me. But as for the actual numbers I don't know. 5 Base and 600%? It would have to be tested no matter what they did, but thats why the game is still in beta.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Mostly true, I think you meant to say less per crit than others but crits more often. Unless my math is off, but from what I read on the wiki it does 18 critical dmg without mods, thats not even as strong as a regular Braton round. Hence the Crit dmg increase, the numbers were a suggestion not the hard numbers I would like to see. I think DE envisioned the Grakata as a weapon that relies on crits to do decent damage. So it makes more sense the crits should be stronger than the other weapons, at least to me. But as for the actual numbers I don't know. 5 Base and 600%? It would have to be tested no matter what they did, but thats why the game is still in beta.

 

No, I mean, comparatively, Grakata shots do more crit damage than other weapons do. A Grakata will turn 10 damage into 20. A Braton will turn 10 damage into 15. This is balanced by the relatively low base damage per shot, coupled with a very fast fire rate. The Grakata's shots aren't meant to be more damaging than a Bratons per shot, because it fires shots so much faster and more frequently than a Braton.

[Sixty5]

Better route for the Grakata is:

Damage, Multishot, Ap, then whatever else you want. 

 

And don't skimp on ammo boxes, they are only 1000 each, and you easily can make double that in a mission, and if you need any more than one you are wasting ammo with fullauto, 5 shot bursts to the face melt anything.

[Rabidbluedeath]

No, I mean, comparatively, Grakata shots do more crit damage than other weapons do. A Grakata will turn 10 damage into 20. A Braton will turn 10 damage into 15. This is balanced by the relatively low base damage per shot, coupled with a very fast fire rate. The Grakata's shots aren't meant to be more damaging than a Bratons per shot, because it fires shots so much faster and more frequently than a Braton.

 

And your Absolutely correct but here is why I think it needs a buff broken down into just base DPS (this is assuming 100% acc, the numbers on wiki being correct)

 

Braton: 20 (dmg) * 11.3 (fire rate) = 226 DPS no mods

 

Grakata: 9 (dmg) * 20 (fire rate) = 180 DPS, now lets factor in the grakata crits at base. 

 

Crits per 20 rounds: 20 (fire rate) * 7.5% (.075) = 1.5 so lets round it up to 2 just to be generous

 

Crit DMG: 9 * 200% (2) = 18

 

Crit Damage per 20 rounds: 18 * 2 = 36

 

Actual DPS with crits factored for grakata: 180 (base dps) - 18 (the 2 shots that will crit) + 36 (the 2 critical shots) = 198 DPS with crits. 

 

so the comparison: Braton 226 DPS no crits no mods no nothing to the Grakatas 198 DPS. with crits its still 28 behind. 

 

It does more per crit percentage wise and crits more often but even under optimal conditions it still, by the numbers, doesn't measure up. That being said, I still like the gun and its fun to use. Personally 28 isnt a big deal for me but it is for some people. If my math is wrong please let me know, just did this really quick before work. (Might edit later with what the DPS of my proposed buffs would be) 

Edited May 8, 2013 by Rabidbluedeath

[MoonicusMaximus]

And your Absolutely correct but here is why I think it needs a buff broken down into just base DPS (this is assuming 100% acc, the numbers on wiki being correct)

 

Braton: 20 (dmg) * 11.3 (fire rate) = 226 DPS no mods

 

Grakata: 9 (dmg) * 20 (fire rate) = 180 DPS, now lets factor in the grakata crits at base. 

 

Crits per 20 rounds: 20 (fire rate) * 7.5% (.075) = 1.5 so lets round it up to 2 just to be generous

 

Crit DMG: 9 * 200% (2) = 18

 

Crit Damage per 20 rounds: 18 * 2 = 36

 

Actual DPS with crits factored for grakata: 180 (base dps) - 18 (the 2 shots that will crit) + 36 (the 2 critical shots) = 198 DPS with crits. 

 

so the comparison: Braton 226 DPS no crits no mods no nothing to the Grakatas 198 DPS. with crits its still 28 behind. 

 

It does more per crit percentage wise and crits more often but even under optimal conditions it still, by the numbers, doesn't measure up. That being said, I still like the gun and its fun to use. Personally 28 isnt a big deal for me but it is for some people. If my math is wrong please let me know, just did this really quick before work. (Might edit later with what the DPS of my proposed buffs would be) 

 

The issue I have with this assessment is that it is going in without the use of mods. Nearly all guns are notoriously bad until they start getting modded, at which point their capabilities shoot off like a rocket. The Grakata benefits from crit damage and crit chance mods at a much larger margin than a Braton would receive. And in practice, even with a maxed point strike, which would mean 5 shots will crit in a second, I frequently see more than that number happening. Although the hard math of comparing weapons is also very difficult, because you need to factor in things like length of time actually fired, magazine size, fire rates in relation to the reload speed... there's just too many factors.

 

Better route for the Grakata is:

Damage, Multishot, Ap, then whatever else you want. 

 

And don't skimp on ammo boxes, they are only 1000 each, and you easily can make double that in a mission, and if you need any more than one you are wasting ammo with fullauto, 5 shot bursts to the face melt anything.

 

Ammo boxes seem to be like a secret technique that only a few players actually use. With the credit income blown up in the last couple patches, the purchase of ammo boxes, especially for ammo-hungry, high DPS weapons, just seems natural. I carry a couple all the time now.

[Vanadio]

Braton damage AND accuracy are better than Burston. No one can dissent on this.

 

I'm not a designer but you guys can't make a gun with that $&*&*#(%& recoil! Make a huge recoil AFTER, but not in between!

Edited May 9, 2013 by Vanadio

[0shi]

Yeah, my first purchase was a Burston that I eventually replaced with a Boltor when it stopped being an efficient way to kill things.

Recently I picked up a Braton and have been levelling that, and the degree which it is better than the Burston is amazing -

 

It can be fired single shot with pin-point accuracy

Bursting with it is more accurate than the Burston

It can be fired on full-auto at short range for better sustained damage

 

I really don't understand the balance between the two weapons.

[Meltina]

The issue I have with this assessment is that it is going in without the use of mods. Nearly all guns are notoriously bad until they start getting modded, at which point their capabilities shoot off like a rocket. The Grakata benefits from crit damage and crit chance mods at a much larger margin than a Braton would receive. And in practice, even with a maxed point strike, which would mean 5 shots will crit in a second, I frequently see more than that number happening. Although the hard math of comparing weapons is also very difficult, because you need to factor in things like length of time actually fired, magazine size, fire rates in relation to the reload speed... there's just too many factors.

 

 

Ammo boxes seem to be like a secret technique that only a few players actually use. With the credit income blown up in the last couple patches, the purchase of ammo boxes, especially for ammo-hungry, high DPS weapons, just seems natural. I carry a couple all the time now.

 Except all damage mods scale off base damage so the braton scales better. 226 dps +25% > 198 dps +25%. Crit damage and rate mods are horrible as dps improvements the amount of damage per polarity point is far behind other damage mods. After maxed serration, multishot, armor penetrating, frost, fire/elec there is not much room for crit mods. Without a polarity slot you cant even fit them all. The graakata would need somewhere near base 20% crit rate before crit mods start catching up to a damage mod. This still leaves crit worthless for all other guns so it would be much simplier to buff the crit mods which would buff the snipetron by alot too.

 

Point per point crit mods have to be better than a damage mod for it to be worth it. Picking beween 20% more dps or 20% more dps in a spiky form of crits. Why have unreliable damage when you are getting the same dps from your reliable damage. Serration gives 11.7% more damage per polairity point. vital sense gives 120% crit damage for 9 points. Which is a 13% per point increase if your at 100% crit rate. The Vital Sense mod then becomes better than serration at 90% crit rate. Anything less than 90% crit rate its better to have a serration instead of a vital sense. The elemental damages need something closer to 30% after factoring multishot and scaling with other elemental damages which you cant get even while losing dps on a crit rate mod.

 

Also dps math has been done for guns it puts stuff like the burston paris and snipetron at the bottom of the barrel but it does not take into account useage of the gun like how long your targets are availble and reloading in a lull in combat. Its only dps in a stand up spray and reload fight. It does make a decent guideline on how weapons perform but its all up to the players style on which is most effective.

[Tyrian3k]

Nothing about the fact that both, the Grakata and the Burston, are still in dire need of a serious buff has changed, so I'll just bump this thread up again.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Burston is fine.  The only issue with it is the problem with semi-autos relying on frame rate for their fire rate, but that's not the Burston's fault.  See below for why the Burston doesn't need a buff.

 

 

 

Well, here is my generic response which I'll probably stick more stuff into later so that when more of these threads pop up, I can just quote myself.  I apologize for the length, but this is a compilation of arguments which respond to the statements I've seen posted again and again by those who would buff the weapon.  It is long, but it goes through exactly why the Burston doesn't need a buff.

 

Part I - Intro and Common Arguments

 

Why does the Burston not need a buff?  As I've explained exhaustively in several threads prior, specifically, here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52437-use-of-the-burston/ and here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52449-burst-fire-weapons-rework/ (among others I don't care to hunt for) the Burston has a stupid-low TTK and doesn't need a buff.  Properly modded, it can drop any non-heavy in the game in one click if you're accurate.  Also, because the kick is now vertical, you can control it, meaning that by sliding your mouse down, you can increase your accuracy with time, making the gun eventually able to drop high-level enemies from across the map which I routinely do (Burston is my most-used weapon, accounting for something like 80 hours of in-game time over several updates, so I'm fairly familiar with its mechanics).

 

Oh, and in regards to DPS, the Burston only lacks in immediate DPS.  The moment you account for reload, it BEATS the Braton.

 

If you try to buff the damage, you do zilch to help the weapon.  Why?  Because it can already instagib!  It doesn't need extra damage and by implementing the suggestion of buffing damage and reducing clip size, you'll actually make it weaker for those who know how to use it.

 

If you try to shove the recoil till the end, you'll throw everyone up to the peak of the skill of the most skill-based gun in the game, meaning it will swing wildly from arguably UP to stupidly OP.

 

The gun is fine.  Look, you don't have to like the weapon if you don't want to due to its mechanics, but the fact is, that calling for buffs to it is the wrong way to go about it.  If you say, "Burston isn't fun, let's reduce damage to 18 and shove recoil to the end," while I'd very much dislike that thread as well (I love the current mechanics and you have no idea how happy I was when I read the change to the current system in the patch notes), the weapon very likely would be balanced for average users.  You'd have a point though: most users don't like the skill-based nature of the Burston and most people have to get used to it.  There's not a whole lot of difficulty in this game and the other weapons aren't skill-based, so why should the Burston be?  Why should it be something that you have to adjust to?  An argument made before was "I shouldn't have to adapt to the weapon."  And it was by a person who had honestly tried the Burston but just couldn't seem to like it.  Look, the gun isn't for everyone.  Not even close.

 

What the Burston is though is a skill-based weapon that can instagib any normal mob and puts out better DPS against bosses than the Braton.  When used properly, it is good at distant targets.  It isn't for everyone, I'll admit that, and I'm not even remotely the best person with it.  In previous patches, I've argued for and against buffs to it and honestly, I don't believe it needs one now.  Look, I hope I don't come across as angry or something, it's just that I feel like a broken record in these threads.

 

Regarding ammo efficiency, I only ever run out of ammo on the thing if I'm in a defense mission and get lazy about picking up ammo.  It's really not an issue for normal circumstances.

 

The Burston is a great all-around weapon, capable of many of the key features of other weapon classes, making it very powerful when used properly.  It isn't for everyone (burst weapons never are), but many do like it.  It starts off weak and really needs a potato to start doing real damage (everything comes down to TTK for this gun in the end) but maxed out is a monster and lives up to its title as a balance between semis and autos.

 

 

Part II - Summary of Problems

 

Fundamentally, there are three things that make it seem underpowered.

 

1. People intrinsically hate burst weapons.  Some people just suck with burst weapons or just hate the mechanics of them.  If you are one of these people please be hesitant to give feedback on the performance of such a weapon and at minimum add disclaimers.

 

2. It snowballs much later, requiring a potato far more than other guns to shine.  This has to do with what is required for it to instagib enemies.  For much of its life, it requires two bursts which makes it vastly inferior to everything else out there so players that don't love the mechanics immediately aren't going to put in a potato and/or the time to rank it up.

 

3. Players don't seem to realize how to control the spread when in fact it can be controlled quite well.

 

Likewise, there are fundamental issues with buffing the weapon.  As it stands, it becomes ultra-powerful later but has a much slower start than other weapons and also has a higher skill ceiling than other weapons.  The problem becomes how do we get it to late-game power sooner without buffing lategame all that much.  The following are issues with this.

 

1. If you push recoil to the end: the gun becomes a significantly better version of the Latron

 

2. If you buff the damage: players that are already good with it will do even more stupid damage and you still won't alleviate the problems related to how an entire extra burst is required which eats up a bunch of time.

 

3. If you buff the RoF: it can already instagib, so this will just make it better and punish lack of skill less at higher power levels.

 

The only three options I can think of then are...

 

1. Leave it as-is; minor adjustments to stats won't really help because it has to kill you with the first burst or it becomes horribly inefficient.  RoF doesn't help much either and reload is already low enough that it puts the Burston on par with the Braton against bosses.  This leaves the Burston a good but niche weapon loved by some but discarded by most.  This is my preference.

 

2. Rework it: I don't know what you could do though because the same principles would apply, instagib it or suffer.

 

3. Adjust crit values as per Part III.

 

 

Part III - A Proposed Change

 

Honestly at this point, the only thing I can think of is perhaps buffing the skill floor of the weapon, making it more accessible.  You absolutely do NOT want to buff the high end which is already incredibly powerful when used with skill.  The only thing I can think of would be something along the lines of increase its crit chance to 7.5% and it's crit damage to 200%.  When firing out 3 shots, that'll give you 1-(1-.075)^3 = 20% chance to get a shot that does double damage so instead of a 63 damage burst, you'd get an 84 damage burst.  This shouldn't affect the high end too much (I'll get to numbers in a bit), but perhaps this extra touch of damage would make ranking it up and pre-potato more worth it.

 

Regarding DPS, let's compare with crits the Burston and the Braton with these proposed changes.

 

-Before Crits-

Burston: 3*3.3*21 = 207.9

Braton: 11.3*20 = 226

 

-After Crits-

Burston: 207.9+207.9*.075*2 = 239.085

Braton: 226+226*.05*1.5 = 242.95

 

Idk..  Maybe it would help by making an extra bullet more likely and thus net the player more kills early on while still not impacting later on too much.  Crits are mainly used for increasing likelihood of instagibbing, so hopefully, this could be used to give players a taste of the power to come without boosting that final strength too much.

 

 

Part IV - Valid Uses

 

Why Burston vs X

 

- Vs Braton: Burston can instagib, Braton can't, making its TTK lower.  Also DPS is only 8.7% different and once accounting for reload, the Burston actually comes out on top

 

- Vs Gorgon: much more accurate at range when used properly

 

- Vs Hek: obviously much more powerful at range due to lack of falloff.

 

- Vs Latron: for non-stealth missions (the Latron appears to have dampened sound, not alerting enemies, but only making them more wary), the difference is preferential.  The Burston will punish missed shots more due to lower RoF but will reward hits more.  Risk vs Reward and I'd call it a fair trade.

 

- Vs Paris: once again, for non-stealth missions, the decision is preferential.  The Paris will deal more damage against single targets, so ranking it up will be easier, but its RoF is much lower, being a bow so misses are punished even more heavily than on the Burston.  Once again, Risk vs Reward.  Largely preferential, but I find that the Paris can't down enemies fast enough when in mobs, so I'd pick the Burston.

 

In short, the Burston really is a balance between styles and the reason you should play it is when you are looking for a good all-around weapon that isn't the Braton.  The Braton is a great gun and depending on playstyle may be better for you than the Burston.  It just depends on the person IMO.  Experiment and see which you prefer.  It is totally up to you.

 

 

Hopefully all that has cleared up why the Burston is fine as it stands or at most should only be buffed in regards to crits.

 

[Tyrian3k]

You make a false assumption, Volt, the fire rate of a burst weapon is the amount of bullets it shoots per second, not the amount of bursts you can fire with it. The burst delay on the Burston alone is almost a second and I just tested it again just to be sure of it (Tried it solo on Terminus and had no framerate issues).

Just see for yourself how much faster a Braton can empty a magazine compared to a Burston.

 

So 21*3.3 = 69.3 is the maximum possible dps of the Burston, which can never be reached to 100% thanks to its semi-automatic mechanic.

 

I'd be happy if the Burston actually was fine, but it most definitely is not.