Update 7.x Weapon Balance Notes

[Thelonious]

The point is that adding new weapons is pointless if there isn't a reason to use them. If one weapon is the absolute best of its class, then why would anyone ever use anything else? This makes the game boring because there's no options. You want to use an assault rifle? Then X is the only thing that makes sense. See what I mean?

Ideally a game like this would let its weapons be good for different reasons. There should never be one weapon that is good in all situations. Hence, balance.

But then you can argue about the purpose of mastery rank restricted weapons.

I mean, look at the notes, both Hek and Gorgon are barely on par with their respective unrestricted alternative choices.

[V0LK]

The point is that adding new weapons is pointless if there isn't a reason to use them. If one weapon is the absolute best of its class, then why would anyone ever use anything else? This makes the game boring because there's no options. You want to use an assault rifle? Then X is the only thing that makes sense. See what I mean?

I realy don't. First - players will always buy new guns just because they new and they got bored with old one. I doubt there are many players who would say "Nah, I don't wont that Paris, I have a HEK". Second - you think it's okay to nerf old guns into oblivion to make room for new ones? And lastly - Vandal(or Gorgon) and HEK are still the best, so instead of nerfing them why not make other tools more fun to use?

A week haven't past since 7.0 but I already feel kinda bored. I can't progress with my frames because I simply can't find useful mods and now weapons are boring to shoot from. It's a crime.

[TraumaHunter]

Not wanting to start a fire here, but the newest weapon update to the lex has made the gun absolutely garbage, what happened to the hand cannon/sniper I use to have?

What are you smoking... it got a buff.

[Sealgaire]

It's interesting that no one was whining about nerfs after playing with they're favorite weapons for a few days after update 7, but now that they've released the actual numbers all the armchair game designers come out of the woodwork and cry about those same weapons being "useless" now.

Steve has said before they don't like to focus on "spreadsheet balancing", and this is the reason why. It's more important that each weapon feels unique and fun to use without being worthless compared to others. I think these changes are a step in the right direction when viewed from that angle.

[FierceRadiance]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the purpose of the Vandal weapons was to give Beta testers something of a reward, for helping debug and perfect the game. But by nerfing these weapons, DE turned both of them into essentially Just Another Gun. Yes, if a group temporarily stops playing for a few seconds in-game, the other players could see that it LOOKS a little different from what they have (or have access to), which is nice.

But I think I speak for most testers when I say, given the choice, we'd rather have a gun that does more damage for a reward, than a gun that looks somewhat different. No sarcasm intended, but I've been playing for 90+ hours, and so far, nobody has stopped to admire my weaponry. They do occasionally appreciate me saving their lives by helping them kill something, though. And if there are better guns to use, nobody's going to see my Vandals hidden away in my inventory. I'd like to have a solid reason to take them out and use them.

DE, respectfully, please consider restoring the damage to the Vandals. Whether you do so or not, they were a very nice thing for you to do for us, and I know we're all grateful to have them. But restoring the damage would be appreciated.

Edited March 23, 2013 by PanUmbrian

[LoRDxDeMoN]

It's interesting that no one was whining about nerfs after playing with they're favorite weapons for a few days after update 7, but now that they've released the actual numbers all the armchair game designers come out of the woodwork and cry about those same weapons being "useless" now.

In case you've been out of the loop, people are too busy hunting newbie mods in Mercury to notice that their guns suck.

[Sealgaire]

In case you've been out of the loop, people are too busy hunting newbie mods in Mercury to notice that their guns suck.

And they weren't using their guns while doing so? Either people are happy with the performance of their weapons or they're not, and if I've learned one thing it's that people on this forum let it be known when they're not happy with something.

[brokenland]

always good to know

[Implodingbanana]

guys im not excited about the new nerfed weapons but look t it this way if something was easy would you want to keep playing something without a challenge? you know i havn't noticed a change in the weapons my vandels are still great i didnt even know they were nerfed until JUST now plus along with the nerfing we got a ton more awsome stuff like the new warframes and weapons. This nerfing has made me want to play even more in order to make my vandels stronger with mods plus the vandels should be a sign that you are apart of this game with a strong community. also remember what dosn't kill you only makes you stonger so this nerfing didnt kill you it should make you want to challenge yourself.

[LoRDxDeMoN]

And they weren't using their guns while doing so? Either people are happy with the performance of their weapons or they're not, and if I've learned one thing it's that people on this forum let it be known when they're not happy with something.

Oh, there are plenty of less-than-positive topics about update 7. With no mods, removed skill trees, and a hidden damage nerf, you can only blame the obvious suspects.

[DalaiLlama]

Well, part of the cumulation of what I've seen and experienced from Update 7 (though knowing myself, I likely forgot some important details) can be summed up in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

The Good: When I was playing a defence mission, trying to score headshots and... well fighting in general, has definitely gotten harder. More nervewracking even, and definitely fun. I played one defence mission with a Paris on Grineer that was so nervewracking that I was legitimately tired at the end of it all. But the fact that I had to almost completely rely on headshots to pose any sort of effectiveness against enemies leads us to...

The Bad: Weapon nerfs, mod nerfs, passive nerfs, and perhaps some other changes that Update 7 brought to the table were initially and still widely recieved as unwelcome in the first place. Why? Well, what resulted IMO was an exponential increase in difficulty ingame in a way that tipped the frustration vs challenge scale by a massive margin, far more than the seeker could ever hope to achieve (thats... actually debatable...). Missions that were previously fun were now impossibly... well impossible. A player that would previously fight level 40+ infested went back to avoiding missions with level 24+ infested. Sure, anywhere from some to many of our egos were left damaged. But looking at the big picture leaves us with...

The Ugly: Whatever isn't the first 3-4 planets (likely an exaggeration on my part, but point understood) is pretty much impossibly hard. At the moment anyways. I dare anybody reading this post to take on the Hyena with a party of randoms and try to achieve the same sort of victory pre-Update 7. Or Victory at all. Because I have attempted that mission for a much needed control module many times and have yet to put that mutt to sleep.

I acknoledge that with time, players will become stronger and better equipped to tackle the new higher difficulties to an extent. I acknoledge that the Update has been out for what scarely feels like a week, and needs much, much tweaking. I acknoledge that Warframe already has a reputation for a "balls to the walls high" difficulty, as I saw on a games review website one day, and that many of us gamers are barking up a deaf tree as goes for large scale "macro" changes.. However, we gamers aren't exactly a patient people, realistically speaking. After having invested so much time into this game, I know many who have questioned whether or not it was even worth... practically starting over. I know some have questioned if fixes for new problems would ever come, assuming the developers even viewed them as problems (which is often not the case) and if they would in a reasonably timely manner. I know a good several who have already quit.

...All of which really is a shame. I used to use my Latron with impunity before Update 7 popping heads and having a jolly good time. Yes, I was popping heads quite easily on anything other than the final worlds. Yes, to be expected, as I considered myself and end-game player at the time. But after Update 7, not the case. I tire talking about it, but not the case at all. And by the way...

It's interesting that no one was whining about nerfs after playing with they're favorite weapons for a few days after update 7, but now that they've released the actual numbers all the armchair game designers come out of the woodwork and cry about those same weapons being "useless" now.

Steve has said before they don't like to focus on "spreadsheet balancing", and this is the reason why. It's more important that each weapon feels unique and fun to use without being worthless compared to others. I think these changes are a step in the right direction when viewed from that angle.

Seal, I can tell very accurately that when I went back to Ceres, (of course before getting my face ripped off, tanned, then processed into a designer handbag) my Latron didn't feel like my gun anymore. What was once a spear gun was now and still is a potato gun. To be honest, I wasn't whining about my old weapons because I had found the Paris, and was loving the heck out of that thing. Why? Because all my old weapons suddenly (for the lack of a better word) sucked. I find it laughable that people wouldn't complain about a problem like the downpowering of weapons; they just pipe up when they see the proof, and louder when they see the numbers.

I remember the Devs saying that they wanted to add more end-game material; turns out their method of appeasing the end-game community was to revert us all back to the bitter beginning and have us start all over again. Not that that's a new concept in gaming, Alan Wake pulled it off in one installment to mixed success. Though that set of words spells most of it out ATM: mixed success.

Edited March 24, 2013 by DalaiLlama

[Traithan]

My Lex numbers are crazy today. By UPGRADING my Damage, Armor Pen, and Multi Shot mods, I've went from 320 crit headshots to 177. But its been a few places in between.

This has all been on the same level, I've been farming Vor all day. Numbers are just changing inbetween game sessions. No clue why other than potential bugs with mods, or they are nerfing Lex on the back end. Other sidearms seem fine.

[CapricaSix]

+1 Why has the Vandal been so badly nerfed? It is no longer special. And The Lato prime why nerf the most exclusive weapon? It was not OP.

+1 Lato Prime needed a buff if anything, not a nerf! Exclusive weapons should be above average otherwise there's absolutely no point in having them. Same goes for Vandals as well, but in my opinion Primes should be superior to Vandals, and they're both in desperate need of a heavy buff!

Edit: The difference between the Braton rifles is also ridiculous, now there's absolutely no incentive to upgrade to a different Braton from the Braton MK1. Not to mention Braton Vandal has been reduced to nothing more than being a "Braton with a different skin", only 2 dmg higher than MK1, why not just make it a skin in that case?

Edited March 24, 2013 by CapricaSix

[lukehall]

+1 Lato Prime needed a buff if anything, not a nerf! Exclusive weapons should be above average otherwise there's absolutely no point in having them. Same goes for Vandals as well, but in my opinion Primes should be superior to Vandals, and they're both in desperate need of a heavy buff!

+1

[Ranzou]

umm.. so the weapon status writen in arsenal is not changed yet but the effect does?

[Alienami]

I recall seeing a dev saying something lo the effect that guns like the BOLTOR and BURSTON were not end-game type weapons, guns like GORGON and HEK were. This made me upset. I wanted to play with a weapon that suited my playstyle, not what was forced upon me to compete in end-game. It seems now the devs are trying to put all the weapons in line but with variations on how you gear the cards in them. I am fine with this.. (but now regretting vendering my pro'd-STRUN...I somehow knew this day would come and I didn't listen to myself!)

I applaud the effort, just need to heed the community a bit. I am willing to see how this plays out as tweaking progresses.

Though, one friend did quit, he didn't want to re-gear in a game he had already geared up in. Usually I would be right there with him, but I spent real money in this game and enjoy it and want it to succeed. Re-gearing hasn't been so bad, except finding Shield Capacity mod; which I had to buy from store in a card pack...ugh... but without doing so I would have been very gimped.

Edit: Friend is now playing again and loving the game more than ever.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Alienami

[Tyzh]

Seal, I can tell very accurately that when I went back to Ceres, (of course before getting my face ripped off, tanned, then processed into a designer handbag) my Latron didn't feel like my gun anymore. What was once a spear gun was now and still is a potato gun. To be honest, I wasn't whining about my old weapons because I had found the Paris, and was loving the heck out of that thing. Why? Because all my old weapons suddenly (for the lack of a better word) sucked. I find it laughable that people wouldn't complain about a problem like the downpowering of weapons; they just pipe up when they see the proof, and louder when they see the numbers.

Do you just mean you didn't have your Latron modded? It's base stats were buffed...

[DalaiLlama]

Do you just mean you didn't have your Latron modded? It's base stats were buffed...

Over the course of collecting and equipping what mods I found, I can tell you that that Latron still was not my gun, if you're inclined to know.

[Sealgaire]

Over the course of collecting and equipping what mods I found, I can tell you that that Latron still was not my gun, if you're inclined to know.

Looking at the notes, the Latron got a huge boost without being nerfed at all, so I have no idea where you're coming from. Are you saying the listed changes are innacurate?

[TraumaHunter]

Looking at the notes, the Latron got a huge boost without being nerfed at all, so I have no idea where you're coming from. Are you saying the listed changes are innacurate?

yes. The types of mods you can equip to guns have changed. Mag size being 15 is not something that existed in the old mod system.

30% increase is 20... 20. The ammount of grinding for those 5 extra bullets (which means 3 kills instead of 2 kills before reloading with its super crappy reload which ALSO can't be "Modded" up like it used to?)

EDIT: anyone who actually USES the guns knows that this is one of those problems that looks like its fixed on paper until you actaully try to use the thing.

Edited March 25, 2013 by TraumaHunter

[CagedMind]

Do you consider latron to be a good weapon to use now? 20% dmg increase is a lot. Plus with the changes to game you won't be using a high fire rate and trying to shoot before it's done recoil.

[DalaiLlama]

Do you consider latron to be a good weapon to use now? 20% dmg increase is a lot. Plus with the changes to game you won't be using a high fire rate and trying to shoot before it's done recoil.

I used to use the Latron extensively before Update 7. Now I don't even touch it. May be a somewhat accurage answer for your question.

[Renan.Ruivo]

I hope that this "weapon balance notes" is not something set in stone, but something to share with us, the community, and gather feedback about.

Because as you guys at DE probably have seen, some pretty known faces that stuck out for you during the initial "UPDATE 7 RAAAGE", and now me included, aren't happy at all with 3/4 of those changes.

Nerfing the Prime weapons was the complete opposite of what you should have done. Nerfing the Braton Vandal breaks DE_Steve word that he wouldn't touch it. That gun was limited edition, meaning only a handfull of people have it compared to the current influx of open-beta players, and even before the suggested nerf it was being outshined by the Paris.

Nerfing the Lato Vandal (and for the same reason the BV as well) is, in my opinion, bad advertisement bait. The infamous bait-and-switch. You gave us great weapons while we were in Closed Beta, told us we would keep them as they were and now that we are in Open Beta you pulled the rug. I have good reason to believe that this wasn't the intention, but intentions don't matter. What matter are actions.

I'm pretty sure that i don't need to tell you guys that you have more guns in the oven at this very moment for the players to fiddle with, so i really don't see the need to try and make all guns of each category be more alike each other.

I, for one, would love to see a revised Update 7.x Weapon Balance Notes based on the feedback you, DE in general, were given in this thread.

[CagedMind]

People need to realize you can't have exclusive weapons outclassing others. If I joined after closed beta to be screwed cause I didn't join before It would leave bad taste in my mouth and might leave right then and there. With that said why does lato vandal even exist it has terrible stats lol.

I used to use the Latron extensively before Update 7. Now I don't even touch it. May be a somewhat accurage answer for your question.

It got buffed in update 7 lol. Unless somehow the mod changes specifically hurts latron more then others. At one time I was using it for a while but it was outclassed badly by boltor so I started using that.

[DalaiLlama]

Nerfing the Prime weapons was the complete opposite of what you should have done. Nerfing the Braton Vandal breaks DE_Steve word that he wouldn't touch it. That gun was limited edition, meaning only a handfull of people have it compared to the current influx of open-beta players, and even before the suggested nerf it was being outshined by the Paris.

Incoming Paris Nerf, then. Sir, you could not have predicted it better.