DigitalDamage
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Posts posted by DigitalDamage
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How do we know that bulletsponges were made because of Multishot? Any quotes of DE saying that? I am curious about that. How sure are we that DE will reduce mob's health if multishot was changed?
Hmm, good questions.
Simple answer: we don't.
However, the attempt to simulate "boss fights" by giving the bosses high health is absurd. The only boss fight that I truly consider a "boss fight" is The Jackal. This is because it had a weakspot that, if exploited, made it vulnerable. Every other boss in the game doesn't have a "weakspot", they're vulnerable all the time. In fact, for every other boss there's only one strategy: shoot it 'til it dies. Thus, in order to offset their natural "squishiness" they had to be given high health... which doesn't sit well with me.
But that's another thread for another time.
EDIT: Deleted lingering ".
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Eats up the ammo for the additional shot? lmao no
you're making it sound as if everyone has multishot, which they dont. Its just you, playing the game way to much.
The Mod is possibly the rarest you can get and you want it nerfed?
Honestly, ideas like this will ruin the game, not people who use multishot...
The game is a grinding farm fest..
This is the problem in a nutshell. I'm not sure if you've played the new areas but they're filled with "bulletsponges" that are supposed to extend the length of a mission by taking more time to kill, this is the solution the devs have chosen to counter speed-runners who utilized Multishot mods.
This solution did satisfy the goal of stopping speed-runners from actually speed-running; they've effectively found a solution to the problem! This is where we all shake hands and yell yippee-ka-yay, right?
Except this is not the case. These bulletsponges may have hindered the progress of speed-runners who stomped the other content of the game because of their Multishot specced weapons; however, they're complete roadblocks to everyone who doesn't have Multishot mods.
Originally, finding a Multishot mod was like enabling instant-kill. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing, in fact, it might've appealed to some people who wanted to be rewarded for their hard work mod farming.
Where the problem lies is when the devs start to add new content that tries to compete with Multishot. Competing with Multishot leads to the bulletsponges that we've already received with this new content, sure you can handle the new bosses with multishot (or a partner that has multishot) but to anyone who doesn't have Multishot it's nigh impossible.
The point is: yes Multishot is the top of the mod food chain, but it should either STAY a mission-stomper or be completely unusable in its current state.
So I've come up with a different solution.
What if Multishot s allowed to exist in its current state ONLY when you're playing solo? When you think about it Multishot is the perfect mod for solo players. We've already established that Multishot increases your damage exponentially and provides the bonuses of many other mods all packed into one, the problem everyone is complaining about only shows itself when there are more than one Multishot users in one match, COMPLETELY shredding any difficulty the game might have had.
What if every gun had two mod sets, one for solo play and one for group play. Solo play would be allowed to have Multishot as an equippable mod while Group play wouldn't. Once you have a partner join your game you automatically switch to the Group play set and vice-versa.This would allow Multishot to exist without shifting content from "hard to solo" to "downright impossible to solo".
Of course, what good is it to make two seperate mod sets for the sake of balancing ONE mod? I propose that there be a whole new set of additions to the existing mods. Maybe something along the lines of this:
Medic: GROUP PLAY MOD, Increases revive speed by 50% (peak)
Err... that's all I got for now (I'm tired and I have to write a paper), but you get the idea. Obviously I haven't given this TOO much thought so I'm not expecting anybody to outright embrace such a radical change to the mod system that we've familiarized ourselves with but I'll just put it out there.
And to think tI thought this hard for the sake of balancing one mod...
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It seems we've run ourselves into a paradox.
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So let's go over the effects of the various mods:
Damage: general combat efficacy
Rate: DPS
Clip: sustainability in a given fight
Ammo: sustainability in a given mission
Elemental: specialization against an enemy type
Honestly, I feel like something kind of like an anti-rate might be good.. That is to say as I mentioned before, make Multishot into some sort of burst damage mod. Perhaps some sort of falloff due to the percentage of the clip that is full? At full clip, a 70% multishot mod does +70%, but at 10% clip, say it only boosts by 5%? That might be a way for it to be semi balanced and if you want to remain at a relatively high clip to keep the bonuses longer, you have to invest some mods in clip size which might be sufficient to balance things out.. Honestly, the more I think about this, the more I like it...
I kind of like this idea... but I'm not sure yet haha.
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If multishot doesn't cost ammo, what's to differentiate it from damage%? I feel like if it doesn't have ammo, it's just damage and if it does, it's rate...
Also, I thought piercing technically counted as an element..
That's the problem with Multishot, it's either a jack-of-all-trades--which is what we have now, or a redundant mod. I wish there was an easy way to balance it, but its entire concept is hard to balance while still making it "unique".
You might be right about piercing being counted as an element, I'll have to brush up on the intricacies of the damage formula.
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I thought you wanted multishot to cost ammo?
I don't think I mentioned that, if I did then it was probably miswording on my part because I strongly feel that multishot shouldn't cost ammo.
Wouldn't it be just simpler to reduce multishots percentage. The real problem that makes multishot stick out is it has 98% damage increase mod vs a 25% damage mod. The reason multishot still would be a blue mod when its lowered to 25% cap would be that it still scales your total damage instead of your base damage.
For example a 20% fire mod + 20% elec mod + 20% multishot Snipetron hits for 100 normal, 20 fire, 20, elec, and fires an extra bullet 1 out of every 5 times So averages to 120 normal 24 fire 24 electric a shot.
While adding a 20% ice mod instead of multishot would be 100 normal, 20 fire, 20 ice, and 20 electricty damage.
168 damage with multishot vs 160 without.
Multishot already competes when its at similar amouts to other damage mods. The thing that makes multishot stand out is the mods cap at 98% instead of 25%. Too keep its power as a blue mod and to give it strength to make up for being unreliable it should cap a around 50% per mod.
We also must remember to allow low level multishot mods to still be effective. A 5% chance to multishot would not be worth using a mod node on. Damage mods also have to be looked at for the boar. Try sticking a damage mod below 20% on a level 1 boar. It adds less than 1 damage per pellet so the mods add 0 damage. We don't want issues like this to occur with lower levels of the multishot mod.
I think I already tried to address this with my suggestion (which was really just a bunch of other suggestions).
The problem with Multishot is that it scales exponentially with other mods. That's why I suggested that Multishot still retain the percentage that it has now, except that it would have a .5 modifier and the extra shots only deal base damage (multiplied by the .5 modifier) and also NOT apply elemental bonuses. These extra multishot bullets would still be able to be modified by +damage/+armor pen; however, the Multishot modifier of .5 would always be applied first. This would keep the shots from scaling tremendously.
Also, only one element is used during damage calculations. If you have 2 different +25% elemental mods only one element is used, but you still get the effect of the other element.
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So at this point you are suggesting multishot be made to deal 50% node damage of the weapon? Why not just build more RoF?
Cuz ammo
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I retract my statement under a single premise: 25% damage is peak damage, so for the math to hold up, 75% must be peak multishot.
Whoops, I forgot about that :S
My bad, I haven't found anything past 75% so I just assumed that was the cap...
I think we are onto something here.
I agree, this might be a good change.
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If Multishot does not eat up ammo, it's superior to fire rate, by far. It's also +clip, +max ammo, in one mod. If one mod attribute can do three things, why bother with the other three?
As Volt said in the comment above me (at the time it was the comment above me), if the previous suggestions are implemented and multishot just does base damage with a .5 modifier on base damage--and without elemental/damage modifiers--it becomes a "fairly decent" mod.
Let's take the Strun, for example. Let's say this Strun is equipped with 2 +75% multishot mods, and we use multishot with the modifiers that I stated above, let's try to get a rough idea of the probable damage output.
NOTE: Damage calculations with shotguns regards every pellet as a seperate "bullet". Thus, they have to be accounted for individually. I also won't be calculating for armor deductions.
Base damage: 120 (12 damage * 10 pellets = 120)
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Upgrade Nodes: 180--nodes stack multiplicatively ([we must first get damage per shot] 12 damage* 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 17.5 [rounded up to 18]; 18 damage * 10 pellets = 180 damage)
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Multishot Multiplier: +140% ([we're using base damage] 12 damage * .5 modifier = 6 damage; 6 damage * 14 pellets = 84 damage)
Total: 264 Damage.
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Now let's take 2 simple +25% damage mods and slap them on the Strun.
Upgrade Nodes: 60 (10 pellets* 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 14.64 [rounded up to 15]; 15 damage * 12 pellets = 180 damage; however, since we're using damage mods we must only apply the bonus the upgrade nodes provide, in this case the bonus is 60: 180-120=60)
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Damage Mods: 180 ([remember, every shot is accounted for seperately] 12 damage * 1.5 modifier = 18 damage; 18 damage * 10 = 180)
Total: 240 Damage
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As you can see, Multishot will still do more damage, but not by a significant amount; this small difference is justified once you consider the fact that Multishot is only available through blue mods and are much more scarce than +Damage mods. The added utility of conservation of ammo is also marginalized when you consider that +damage mods can provide almost the same ammount of "bang-for-buck".
Obviously, this is only a combination of theory-crafting and layman's mathematics but I hope my time wasn't wasted in trying to provide justification for my opinions.
EDIT: Tried to make things look neater.
EDIT 2: Also, I just noticed, but by your logic +damage mods are also inherently broken because they also provide +clip/+ max ammo; and why would you need more fire rate when you just kill things outright in fewer shots? I hope you're not offended but personally, I think you're blowing things out of proportion.
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I feel like if you make multishot consume ammo, it'll just be like fire rate except that it will be multiplicative with it so you'll have to build ammo mods in as well. Wouldn't you just be better off building damage then?
Exactly, I brought up that point a few days ago when someone commented on multishot. Multishot has many appeals, but one of its core appeals is that it does more damage without utilizing ammo; if multishot has to be nerfed then nerf the damage it provides, not the utility. A lot of the previous suggestions are great (make it deal base weapon damage, reduce multishot bullet damage by a percentage) and would help bring multishot back in line with other mods.
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considering charge attack > normal melee is a constant, the higher rate doesnt.. do much.
charge attacks are always stronger better than normal strikes. im still baffled by why people dont use charge more often and insist on that ungodly shaking.
Because of the appeal of an "all-melee based fighter". Warframes have the potential to boost the tap-E damage of a weapon fairly high because they can be equipped with +melee damage modifiers (which don't increase charge damage) and STILL have +melee damage--or whatever mod you desire--on your weapon of choice. On the other hand, if you specialize in charged attacks you only have the weapon itself to add +heavy charge speed or +charge damage.
Of course, you can have an all melee based fighter focused on only charge attacks if that's what you desire, but some people enjoy walking around with +melee damage on their warframes.
On another note, the fact remains that the Dual Zoren doesn't have any sort of competitive edge against other melee weapons; those nice +melee damage mods that you put on your warframe really don't account for much because the bonus is so low on Dual Zoren (having a boost of 30% on a 15 damage weapon is a very minimal difference). Also, the charge damage is also laughable at 50, which, to my knowledge, is the lowest base charge damage in the game.
Fire rate and Crit rate are the only things that the Dual Zoren has going for it, which means that you should stack +fire rate/+crit chance, right? Not necessarily. If you put enough fire rate mods on the Dual Zoren they end up having a fire rate that is faster than you can click which leads to a lot of broken attack animations that break the fluidity of the weapon (of course, you could make a macro/hotkey that will do the E tapping for you like I use, if you guys want I can post the macro I use on AutoHotKey). That leaves you with +Crit chance, which is something that I really want to try even though the +crit damage was nerfed because it seems like a fairly viable build based on the stats that the Dual Zoren has.
I'll come back once I level my Zoren to 30 and post whether I've had some success or not, at the moment they're level 21 so it'll still be a while before I get to 30.
EDIT: Gramerz
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does the fire rate mod increases the heavy charge speed also or only the general attack speed?
Just the general attack speed, there's a specific mod for heavy charge speed.
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yes holy god yes. dear god yes you guys are so amazing.
hold on i gotta go change my pants
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I was about to make a post about buying in bulk, good thing I checked.
I agree OP, +1 from me.
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So just like the title says, I think we need some sort of material sink. By this I mean we need some sort of Blueprint that takes A LOT of materials to make, the method I propose of getting rid of excess material is by having some sort of aesthetic upgrade to weapons we can already make.
What I mean by this is instead of only having 1 Scindo blueprint there'll be 2; the normal scindo and the "Aesthetic Scindo", something simple, like maybe just a re-skin to make it Golden Scindo. These two weapons have identical stats, the only difference is the look. This would let people who love the Scindo make a statement that they... well... love Scindo.
I only say this because I'm literally swimming in materials right now, you name it, I've got at LEAST 50 of it--and those are the rare materials, the common materials i have over 10k of in some cases.
Now I understand that new weapons and warframes will be added so I don't expect this excess of materials to last; however, I still think that maybe having a version of weapons that would serve solely as vanity items would be an interesting feature to have.
EDIT: Spelling.
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I wonder...if the warframes are actually a biotic android race, made by the orokins, and are controlled remotely by a Tenno. Lotus looks human, and she is a Tenno (one would assume), so the Tenno are just human controlling the warframe by some means (telepathically/electronically?). This explains why you can have frames of different genders, as you are simply "assuming direct control" on one of those warframe.
Basically the tenno have a race of slaves, engineered to be weapons, fighting for their causes.
I was thinking the exact same thing; only instead of "a race of slaves" I just thought of them as Drones. We already have Drone fighter planes, it wouldn't be too dumb to think that we could have a Drone human-like machine.
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I was discussing this with some of my friends the other day, I would love if they implemented an arena just like the ideas suggested in this thread. +1 for every suggestion.
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I'd like to reference a great and terrible game called Call of Duty. If you guys are familiar with their prestige system. Players would gladly start from scratch over and over just to earn a flashy badge and a + 1 on ranking statistics. Could this also be implemented on warframes/weapons? At level 30 you are prompted asking whether or not you'd like to prestige, and it resets your warframe all the way to lvl 1. You're rewarded with perhaps new avatars for your profile, or maybe the suit itself changes (very minorly) for example the decal on the shoulders of the excalibur warframe would begin to emit light, and then become brighter during prestige ranks, or certain colors would mean certain ranks.
This would quantifiably introduce another level of competitiveness and boost the longevity of the game.
Look to the precedents, devs, and gimme dat flashy shoulder badge that sparkes n S#&$.
+1 to both this suggestion and the OP's suggestion.
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Thanks for the suggestions guys, I think I'll try out the Jackal mission for a little while and then try Callisto.
Thanks again for the suggestions, I appreciate it :)
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Any map that you can solo is good.
Remember to bring a lex or something so you can deal the final blows with your braton (and preserve ammo).
That's a pretty good idea, I think i'll have to try that
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I really hope we get some proper female/male models for every warframe in this game. Lotus has clearly stated "you will master the Warframes", that should not include random gender changes. You are playing as the same Tenno all the time, the only thing you do is change Warframe which grants you new combat abilities. The devs should consider a complete remake when it comes to this. I really hope that picture in post #1 is a sign of what I'm thinking.
As a female marine and gamer myself I think we need some lady Tenno's destroying human vessels >:3
If they do decide to do this they would have to make it fit within the lore that they create for the game, otherwise It'll leave a horrible taste in my mouth.
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Any map in specific? My Braton is fairly weak at the moment, only level 23 but it does far less damage than I was expecting
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I'm not sure I'll get a response that I didn't already know but it's worth a shot.
Where's the best place to level rifles--specifically Braton? I say this because I end up running out of ammo even on the most mundane missions.
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I've leveled both to 30 and, contrary to popular belief, I actually found Fragor to be easier to level. Honestly, as long as you level either weapon on the faction they're meant to be fighting (Scindo vs. Infested/ Fragor vs. Grineer) you should have no problem leveling them.
The only thing that you should be concerned about is whether or not you have more trouble with Infested or Grineer. Some people genuinely have problems against Infested and that's ok--if you're one of those people grab yourself a Scindo. Some people have problems with Grineer, grab a Fragor. I won't push any position onto you but just know that the Fragor does have a weird hit-box; sometimes when you think you should've hit a target it turns out it somehow "missed". Of course, this is only with the tap-E combo, the charge attack and the slide attack work perfectly fine.
Some people have said that the Scindo can still remain relavent when fighting Grineer because of the fact that it's tap-E combo is able to stunlock/knockdown enemies; however, keep in mind that while you're doing this combo it will generally take longer than the Fragor to kill an enemy and you'll be a sitting duck if you're just trying to slice down the one Grineer that overextended from his group and vulnerable to his buddies' shots.
Another thing to consider is the fact that while you might be forced to use armor piercing mods on the Scindo to remain effective against Grineer (if you choose to do so) the Fragor does not have that problem, freeing up valuable mod space. This means that on pen-and-paper the Fragor is, hypothetically, a potentially stronger weapon than the Scindo; however, in practicality, none of that matters if you are uncomfortable with the tap-E combo and unable to land your shots (it does take some experience with the weapon to know when you can and cannot hit something).
If you ask me which of the two is my favorite I'd say that it would have to be the Fragor simply because I like the way it looks--nothing more, I'm a fairly simple person, and you know what? I'm fine with that.
How it feels when I play frost after farming him for days
in Off Topic
Posted
So it feels like you went to a thrift shop?