(XBOX)Knight Raime
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Posts posted by (XBOX)Knight Raime
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4 hours ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:
they aren't missing out on it like a one time dev stream or event
They are missing out on being there when it happens
I missed out/ was late on Halo when it happened, and it feels weird to be late to the fun
That is FOMO. More so Fear Of Being Left Out. It stings, it hurts and many people are Vulnerable to it, you don't need experience to know how it feels
If that's the angle the argument is from then I don't see how adding a skip option makes that worse. You have the ability to replay (afaik) the most important quests and you could push DE to simply make all quests if they have any story significance replayable.
4 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:I'm currently playing d2 witch queen (I'm at the final mission) and I can say the story is really good, however yeah, multiple of their dlcs (beyond light, which I also bought, comes to mind) end up having the main content be outside the story with the story only being the doorway to it, instead of the major event that has serious long term effects. (For example, beyond light is really easy, I cleared it within like 2-3 hours, and didn't die at any of the boss fights with my gear being the equivalent of the lowest level nightfalls, and it's only really there for you to get stasis and do the raid.)
Yeah D2 is pretty inconsistent story wise. I'm still a DLC Andy and return to experience the major expansions but beyond that I cbaed to stick around from season to season. Bungie even from the Halo days has been good at world building and creating a universe you want to get stuck in. They've never had a great track record with telling a good story from start to finish. Which probably wouldn't suck so much if their DLC models were much better. But that's a different discussion for another time.
3 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:The difference between FFXIV and WF in that regard is FFXIV is supported by a multitude of different players and communities. In particular it’s strong RP community that doesn’t need a story tying them to the world because they are creating their own narratives. Probably half of the FFXIV community is the “second life” roleplayers. WF has no player driven narrative. It doesn’t have strong PvP. It is a purely PvE game in a PvE world without roleplaying that must have its narrative created for the player.
FFXIV is a theme park with an incredibly diverse set of experiences and an incredibly diverse community
This doesn't work as a counter point because WF started without a "story." Many of the oldest world building blocks have been repurposed/retconned or simply forgotten to time. People were into WF because of it's combat systems and gritty atmosphere. While some of the latter has faded over time the former has only continued to be built upon. I don't doubt that there are some story Stans that are super invested into it.
But at the end of the day you play WF because you enjoy tinkering with the robust systems. The actual difference between FF14 and WF is that FF14 needs it's world and it's immersive elements because the gameplay itself does not hold up due to a lack of variety in actual combat. WF on the other hand can create entirely different experiences using the same stock loadouts. Not even considering crafted weapons, Subsuming, Operators, etc. Gameplay is king and it's what carries WF and always will.
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Just now, KIREEK said:
Paying to skip (regardless of the currency used) is to prey on the FOMO mentality, they know the player wants to be on par with the rest of the playerbase quickly, if you don't do that then you will be missing out.
What i'm saying isn't mental gymnastics, it has been like this for many years, it's not the 1st time a game has implemented this, it's widely known and has been discussed countless times
I essentially stated the obvious
Bro. There is nothing they miss out on because DE does not remove content. You're not stating anything obviously. You're just making stuff up.
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2 hours ago, -Krism- said:
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-New players will just get lost & confused suddenly playing the very end of the story with no context to what happened previously,
- Let them play the game, not a read/listen to a 20 min recap of the fifteen quests they have never played
New players are already lost and confused. The game does not do a good job with the onboarding experience despite the devs efforts to do so.
2 hours ago, -Krism- said:- All quests serve as tutorials for new gameplay additions, (e.g. Operators, Archwings, Railjack, Necramechs, & so on)
You can't buy skill & knowledge
They can simply make tutorials in a different way. Of what you mentioned the game already doesn't ask you to use pretty much any of that consistently except for Operators. To me it's simply a waste of time to force people to build these one off Arsenal pieces if the game isn't going to loop in their uses often.
2 hours ago, -Krism- said:- Investment: New players will not care for the story &/or characters they've never seen before & have no attachments to
They will have 0 attachment to the game due to all skipping the story
That's narrowminded of you. Not everyone plays games to be immersed in story or it's world. Some people purely play for gameplay. WF being as incredibly diverse with it's modding system (added onto via operators and the subsume system) that's more than enough reason to want to play. WF didn't have a story to begin with and it's barely walking now in terms of it. WF is not a story driven action RPG. it's action combat first and people should have the option to get to that and where it's at it's best as soon as possible.
2 hours ago, -Krism- said:- Imagine yourselves as a new player, you finished the first quest of the game & are greeted by "Pay to skip the story to the very end", how do you think that would make them feel?
Simply put, it looks bad to offer a new player to skip your story
It really doesn't. FF14 is well known for how good it's story arcs are and new players are not forced to go through all of it in order to play with others. No one thinks less of FF14 for having this option and it's pretty standard for most "mmo" like games.
2 hours ago, -Krism- said:- Retention: Players who just finished the very last quest of the game before the older ones won't necessarily have any reason to keep playing
Power Level: The players who paid won't have any reason to actually play the game to get new gear as you will have given them everything they need to progress
So your telling me that you only play WF for quests whenever DE adds them? You're telling me that the whole build crafting that WF is known for and loved for by many isn't a reason to keep playing? It doesn't matter what DE gives the players to be able to start playing with their friends. There's zero chance it will be anywhere comparable to a vets stacked available resources. They will not have a fraction of what is possible to do in this game.
2 hours ago, -Krism- said:- You've been removing more & more grind walls & streamlined the whole game specifically for this reason, so, what was the point if you're just gonna add a skip everything button?
Because having options is a good thing.
1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:I mentioned it's kind of a disservice to the Devs who designed, built and wrote the content. Bit of an FU to them if John Newberry just skips it.
Forcing someone to playthrough something they have no interest in doesn't respect the work the devs put into it either. What a weird angle to argue from.
1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:Despite the consensus of New War in particular being a bit iffy, it was very well presented. Just it's 5-6 hour wall you have to climb to get back to Warframe.
Second Dream is considered a must see.
Not everyone plays for story. I certainly don't. WF's attempt at a cohesive narrative has some decent highs but it's not at all why I'd return to or recommend the game to others. The robust systems that allow you to slurry hordes of enemies in every possible fashion you can think of is the selling point that I'd use.
1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:I personally like a frame as to why I'm doing what I'm doing in universe. Plus I feel I earned my spot doing most of the stuff everybody else has done.
Cool, not everyone has that same mindset. Respect that others have different reasons for playing a game you're both interested in and don't gate keep it.
49 minutes ago, KIREEK said:Pay to skip essentially makes the "hero's journey" into just the "hero", no sense of acomplisment, no learning, no bond with the game, the story or your grind really.
It's a form of FOMO, if you don't play the game then you'll be missing out the fun other players are having, it's a way DE has found to try and exaust the plat the community has, potentially even making some users pay for said plat.
I don't care either way since i plan on playing the game (that's the point of the game afterall) but i know the players that do buy the content will know litle to nothing and won't be around for long, since they couldn't even bother with the earlier portions of the game which are arguably quite good.
This entire sob story with "we're doing it for the poor players who feel like they are missing out on the latest content we advertised" is what irks me really, i know why it's being done, FOMO is a lucrative strategy.I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to think having an option to skip is FOMO. It's not like this is Destiny where they regularly remove content for you to play. The rest of your post is just headcannon with no actual defensible/arguable points.
48 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:The thing is several mmos have this: despite Warframe not truly being an mmo, it still takes after them on several ways like having in-game trading and class types.
Mmos have this so they can make you buy the dlc instead of slogging through all the old content (FFXIV ARR comes to mind) to get to it, which is kinda funny tbh because Warframe doesn't have any dlc or any sort of heavy endgame for people to want to get to (other than clearing rooms of 20 enemies at once).
While I'd certainly rather the devs spend resources into developing a better onboarding system that actually strings the game into something even slightly cohesive that doesn't devolve into spending time waiting for stuff to build so you can go continue the other thing and get on to more story I also recognize that's probably pretty hard to do given what WF is.
I mean Destiny has a MUCH better narrative in terms of structure and pacing (they just drop the ball at telling actual stories with ends,) and this is something D2 struggles to do. They also cannot make a good onboard experience and trying to catch up to relevant stuff even when streamlined can be a tall ask. So they are also offering pay to skip options so to speak. I think WF offering an option makes just as much sense. The only negative take on it is DE is "asking for more money." Which like, fine...But DE has done far worse than this. At least this option is not at all intrusive and WF for the most part is still very F2P friendly. Certainly much better than most other games that can be comparable.
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-New players will just get lost & confused suddenly playing the very end of the story with no context to what happened previously,
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I try not to think about Valkyr. Game feels more fun when I do like the devs do and ignore her existence.
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On 2023-09-29 at 12:20 AM, Lancars said:
Sorry but i prefer being able to dolphin dive with undertow. Run around and jump and and out of it to surprise enemies and silence specific enemies that would cause issues like the wardens in rescue. and No i did not AFK in the puddle like other people i used it more actively.
But now its gonna be replaced with a very boring looking move.
This is my main issue. I will miss puddle but I wouldn't have minded so much if it was replaced with something a lot more cool/fun to use. Plunder is basically just a stat stick which Hydroid's whole rework can be summed up as.
On 2023-09-29 at 2:43 AM, (PSN)ApoX95 said:quite the strong vocabulary for a useful rework of an outdated, classic warframe.
I guess this is what somebody calls 'ungrateful'. keep some perspective and don't disrespect the devs who even make this wonderful game possible.
When someone hands you something that you have issues with it doesn't matter if there's some good in there. You're not obligated to enjoy it or accept it. The idea that someone should be grateful over such a situation is just peak old parenting. Stop simping for companies.
On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:Eh. Reworking Hydroid around Corrosive is a far better play than I thought they’d go for.
It's only going to work because his Corrosive is better than standard Corrosive. Regardless it's a very weird play to make the frame who's always been known for CC with water to become a weapon element dispenser based off of a singular mod.
On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:His 3 adding personal survivability, making his armour strip permanent, and also adding damage to his weapons, also augmenting it makes it a team heal? Not bad, to be honest.
Plunder's armor portion is the exact same thing as Atlas's passive and we already know that doesn't make Atlas a tank. Hydroid has much less armor even in his prime compared to base Atlas. It's not going to make his survivability that much better. if I was looking for armor strip there would be better frames, especially total defense strips. Having all of these effects rolled into one ability doesn't change that it's a boring ability that doesn't make up for the actual gameplay that's being removed.
On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:With his 4 now holding and not flailing, he has way better kill potential, his 2 has better CC for abusing that too, and his 1 now just being a solid 1 cast to initiate? Could be a lot worse for us.
If I was looking for suspend to set up for kills there are better frames for that. I don't think they did anything to improve his 1's targeting. All they did was remove the charge to have it be base max range cast. Which isn't as big of an improvement as you'd think
On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:I agree that bundling his puddle into Tidal Surge would have been good. Buuut… I don’t think the majority of Warframe players will even notice it’s gone.
Isn't an argument/debatable point.
On 2023-09-29 at 6:41 AM, Rathalio said:If Plunder was only giving armor and stripping enemies, ok it wouldn't so be great even though it would still be a decent ability. But it does more than, the damage buff for weapons is very welcome on Hydroid kit. You are now either suspending enemies in tentacles or pushing them face to the ground with your 1st ability. Then you have to use your weapons to kill them. Which definitely works well and makes sense with the kit overall.
The problem isn't that Plunder isn't a functional/useful ability. It's that it's boring and doesn't look fun to interact with. Not to mention it doesn't at all fit Hydroid beyond the name alone. It's a clear case of functional>flavor.
On 2023-09-29 at 6:41 AM, Rathalio said:Undertow sucked and never had any practical use other than sometimes dodging stuff which can also be dodged with Tidal surge. That would be lying to say it was more than that. Yes you could be invulnerable, but at the trade off of being useless if you used the ability.
Just actually making stuff up. You could puddle to cut off choke points/cover objectives. You could steal enemies into your puddle and then corrosive barrage yourself or cast your 4 to suspend your specific enemies. It was also just stupid fun to be a sentient puddle that could tackle enemies with surge and drown them for a bit. Or splashing myself on allies to heal them a bit.
On 2023-09-29 at 7:14 AM, Waeleto said:Can't believe people are hating on the hydroid rework and defending the PUDDLE out of everything, that garbage ability held hydroid back for YEARS now it's finally gone
DE did what's best for hydroid his kit now is a lot better and has so much synergy, i'm sorry you lost your afk tool but this is for the bestIt wasn't a garbage ability, you just didn't like it. Puddle could've been folded into surge and he still could've gotten your boring stat stick ability for his new third. No one is missing it for it's afk potential nor was that a reason DE sited for it's removal. Why even comment on such topics if you're just going to actually ignore the feedback people are giving. I'm glad you like his new direction. Let us who don't talk about why.
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:Okay, I'm neutral to the puddle, but see... this is where you're getting silly in this.
Because we have actual recorded evidence of just as many, if not more, people saying it's definitely not fun to use. That it was slow, and boring, that dragging enemies in simply meant that missions ended slowly, or that other players were standing around waiting for Hydroid to do something.
And they could've made an effort to try and make Puddle a better ability that would satisfy all the meta chasers. Instead they chose to alienate those of us who liked puddle and what you could do with it.
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:It had no ability to defend an objective, it had the slowest scaling damage in the game, and even the interaction with Corroding Barrage that stripped armour from enemies in the puddle for massive kill potential was completely removed from it.
I mean that's just wrong, unless your definition of defending was just creating a 3d space that prevents enemies from shooting inside. But that's oddly specific and incredibly limiting for no real reason. You'd catch so many other CC tools in the wrong for that. The damage could've easily been changed to percent based if that's what DE wanted out of the ability. But like many other abilities in the game I don't think the fact that damage is present on the ability means it was meant for killing. Also even though DE removed the ability to insta kill with corrosive puddle it was still a useful combo.
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:The only, and I mean the only, tactical use of his puddle I have seen in years of people trying to get Hydroid reworked was with the Arca Titron slam. Where you would charge up the slam, go into puddle mode, drag enemies into the middle and then double-jump out of it to unleash the slam and the Electric procs would deal massive damage due to quadratic scaling from every enemy hitting every other enemy.
That just sounds like you're basing something's ability to be useful based off of killing. That's not the only reason an ability could be good/useful.
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:Compare that to an ability that absolutely must have you priming the enemies with Status to use, where using Tidal Surge to group up enemies and proc that essential first Corrosive Status on them, or Barrage to stun-lock them, or Tentacle Swarm to help defend a location while doing the same thing, where any of those are required first to actually achieve any result with Plunder. It has the same kind of reliance as Grendel with his abilities requiring enemies to scale. Same with this, it requires lots of enemies and lots of procs to get the full potential.
That's not the gameplay I was looking for in Hydroid.
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:Is a one-button to simultaneously gain massive weapon damage, high amounts of Armour, and make any existing Corrosive procs permanent, a bit 'easy to use'? Sure it is.
Not saying it isn't.
But, is getting 10 procs of Corrosive on every single enemy in range, in order to do that one button press, without killing all those enemies first, actually something that requires a bit of tactical use of his other abiliites? Yeah, it kind of is.
You're just misunderstanding the issue here. The push back against Hydroid's rework isn't based on functionality or viability. It's that they're changing Hydroid into something that isn't really recognizable or fun for us. It's a classic case of making something viable at the cost of making it less unique/interesting.
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9 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:
Plunder's armor strip feels like an answer looking for a question. I won't say it's pointless, but depending on you already stripping armor for it to strip armor feels like it has little value when the solution is just kill the stripped enemy. Armor Buff and Weapon damage buff are fine, but it just feels so bland. The anti-armor theme feels overdone.
Unless I misunderstood something the plunder armor steal is quite literally just Atlas's passive. But instead of having to pick up rocks you just steal from enemies. If that's really the case then we already know how pointless that is. As it barely does anything for Atlas and he's already much more tanky compared to Hydroid. Atlas's main survival comes from petrifying everything followed by rock slide's invulnerability period which can be abused. Plunder really just feels like a rush job since they wanted to remove puddle but couldn't think of something better to replace it with.
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12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:
Wait, wait wait... You're talking about when Pablo said that Reworks to frames don't typically see much rise in the engagement of players with that frame.
Yep that's the statement.
12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:And he's not wrong. Zephyr's rework, for example, saw her get an overall 1% rise in usage from one year to the next. And that was a minor rework that only accomplished the tiny achievement of lifting her from D tier to A tier.
However, think about that stat. It's like those people saying 'oh, only 1% of people are going to die from the plague' (apart from the fact that they were wrong and it was closer to 4.5% overall), that still means that out of a million people, that's 10K that would die.
I am aware of how statistics work. My point wasn't that the player count for the rework wouldn't increase. My point was that the devs don't rework frames specifically to push people who weren't interested initially to play them. I assumed this based off of Pablo's statement. So with that in mind my conclusion was that reworks are "typically" meant to give love to the people that already enjoy the WF. To which I don't think this rework does that well.
12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:Hydroid has fans, especially ones from back in the day that are still playing now and are going to be incredibly happy that one of their old favourites is back to relevancy.
I am one of his fans. I argue against the relevancy comment because what is "relevant" is unique to the player. As I have mentioned here and elsewhere his rework does not fundamentally change his gameplay unless you played into puddle gameplay. The devs did not replace puddle with anything new mechanic wise for Hydroid to do. You can call him a corrosive bot and frankly why would I bother with that when corrosive isn't hard to mod into basically anywhere else? Not to mention total defense strip abilities exist. If Hydroid could actually do that THEN maybe I could see people bothering with him.
My problem isn't really "grr they took me puddle" even though I adored the ability. My gripe is that what they removed (which i remind you was an actual mechanical gameplay loop) was effectively replaced with a boring stat stick ability that is functionally worse than many other frames out there. What was taken was not adequately compensated for. So the rework is a dud in my eyes.
11 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:And if they had modified the puddle, there will be those who do not like the reworking, that's how it is with everything, you cannot please everyone, there will always be those who do not like something.
I'm not sure what kind of response you are expecting with this sort of reply. There's nothing to actually discuss here. You might as well be pulling "well that's just my opinion" card in an argument/debate.
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25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:
This isn't true at all...
The most popular frame in the game is one that became popular only after his rework.
Saryn is also way more popular after her rework...
To a lesser extent you also have many more people playing limbo and zephyr and grendel...
Just to name a few. I think for the most part reworked frames have become more popular...
It came straight from the devs mouths.
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18 minutes ago, Psianide73 said:
You're saying that Puddle was the entirety of Hydroid's personality? Some personality!
Hydroid was all about violently sloshing enemies around and dragging them into the deep. He does none of that now with his kit and has been remade into a corrosive bot. One is undoubtably more functional than the other, but that doesn't mean it was a wholistically good change.
18 minutes ago, Psianide73 said:There will always be someone, or in this case, 3 people who aren't happy with a rework. It's a shame for those people, but the greater good prevails in this case.
Minimizing the discontent of the people who actually care about the frame doesn't really make your argument better nor do you any favors.
18 minutes ago, Psianide73 said:I'm sure Hydroid will be much more popular after the changes, except with 3 people. 😉
Hasn't been the case for literally any other old frame that got reworked and there were better reworks compared to his. Hydroid won't be breaking that tradition.
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I CBAED to comment on everything from the stream since it was a long one but I'll just skim and put my thoughts below:
Hydroid rework: Since this is the thing I was most curious about I will comment on each thing briefly as I read over them on the workshop.
- Passive change: overall I'm okay with a new passive because his old one had no real usage or value. That being said if they were going with the idea on soaking an enemy I wish it buffed more than just corrosive. Overall good change.
- Charge mechanics: I enjoyed being able to control the size of my CC areas to fit my needs. But admittingly that's very niche. So making them just be max charge is fine.
- Tempest Barrage: On one hand I liked being able to use it to floor mat the enemies immediately threatening me. But the game has changed so much over time which when combined with the rng nature of the ability makes this not really reliable. So making it do a stagger instead of a ragdoll is fine.
- Tidal surge: Nothing to say here really. Good changes.
- Tentacle swarm: Same as above. it's a decent change, no real discussion needed.
Finally we get to Puddle, saved this last because it's the biggest issue I have with the rework. Their reasonings for it's removal are just bad. Straight goofball wack-a-do nonsense.
"Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with."
I don't know where they got the idea that Puddle made Hydroid less fun to play as. You could freely ignore the ability if you didn't like it. Removing it alienates the people who DID have fun with it. You know what I find unfun when playing with others? People playing room wiping frames preventing me from interacting with enemies. What If I get annoyed by people teleport switching me with Loki? Should you remove that too? Ugh.
"It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement."
Did DE forget you can cast Tidal surge in Puddle? Hell the devs could've used this opportunity with the newly buffed Surge to make the interaction between the two better. Also like, maybe just don't bring Hydroid to a mobile objective mode? That's like saying Frost needs to have his bubble turn into being mobile because of moving objectives, or you took him into exterminate.
"It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill."
Then just make it do % based damage so the enemies bleed out faster. You did the same thing with Grendel. Overall DE has zero rational reasoning for removing Puddle other than just wanting to change him. Which I'm not unreasonable. If they replaced it with something much more fun or unique or whatever I could be on board. But what did we get? "Plunder." Which is just a boring multi step armor strip (not even a full defense strip) that gives a weapon damage buff and Atlas's passive.
This ability is not at all exciting nor does it even add anything unique to Hydroid. When you remove an ability or significantly change one on a WF it SHOULD be the focus of the rework to justify making such a drastic change. Plunder is not that. Nor do I see anyone going to Hydroid specifically for the ability. I don't imagine anyone who actually enjoyed Hydroid was looking for anything like this either.
Companion rework: Mostly good changes here. Though I don't like that their choice to the interesting heal interactions was just to remove them. Though given how long this rework had been teased and probably restarted I guess it's fine if it means it gets it out the door.
Accessibility+UI: The highlight system is definitely appreciated, no complaints with it so far. Same with the conservation changes. Was probably my second favorite activity in open world next to fishing. So anything to make that easier to interact with and less of a hassle I'm for. The auto melee system is interesting, I don't have anything against it, but I do wish they would make melee combos in general more interesting. The perfect attack system they hinted at has piqued my interest.
Finally I'm pretty interested in seeing how they manage the buff stuff. Lately it seems like most games struggle with making this part of UI decent.
QOL: Focus lens buffs are good. Focus should not be hard to farm up given how important the system is. The shield gating changes was bound to happen and at least on paper sounds completely reasonable. We'll have to see how it plays out in practice to see if number tweaks will need to be made but overall It looks acceptable. I find it very interesting the amount of hoops the devs had to jump through to make their stats more readable. Overall I don't think I have an issue with what's being done here. Archon hunts mechanic I still inherently disagree with and the changes aren't removing it so It's not relevant to me.
Dagath: Design wise she looks pretty uninspired, but WF hasn't really been doing great in it's WF designs or primes lately so it's whatever. Her passive being essentially arcane energize but for health as well is pretty decent. Her 1 just looks like a better version of Yarlie's blades which is just funny to me. But yeah, solid ability. Doom seems weird since it doesn't seem to do anything on it's own (unless I missed something.) Seems like it only exists to buff her other abilities. Which....ehhhh? Grave spirit would've been cool if we didn't already have other abilities that play around dodging death. Finally her ultimate, it's cool. That's basically it.
Maybe I'm too harsh on the devs but it feels like post Gauss/Grendel they've really dropped the ball on making good WF's.
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20 hours ago, Angtynur said:
Hydroid now is just another armor-stripping frame like so many others. The fun is gone. Tidal Impunity makes him a very viable frame in SP. It would have been more than fine to limit this rework to better stats/damage for his 3 and 4. They could have kept the puddle while adding a bonus armor for X seconds for each enemy dragged into the puddle, for example, to improve his survivability. The tentacles just needed more damage / maybe different elemental damage and make it easier for players to attack enemies trapped by the tentacles.
Couldn't have put it better myself. The rework stripped his identity. Like all of the changes he got minus removing the puddle would've been good enough.
16 hours ago, brago90 said:QoL: They have eliminated the skill charges and made skills 2 and 4 more comfortable and consistent.
Personally I liked being able to control the area of effect mid mission with both skills. That being said I do not think removing the charge aspect for just more consistent abilities is that much of a loss to me. So I'm indifferent about it.
16 hours ago, brago90 said:Losses: They have taken the puddle from the king of the puddle but for everyone he will continue to be the king of the puddle. To be honest, the puddle was antisynergistic or redundant compared to the rest of his kit (The 2 encourages movement and the 4 already covers the control).
I find those to be poor reasons to remove something. Old WF design didn't cram 4 abilities into a kit to be some what linked to each other. They could operate independently. I have nothing against WF's current design direction but I really dislike that it's made people think 4 abilities need to fit together in some capacity. Puddle being stationary didn't take away from Surge especially when you could use it in puddle to re position. His 4 might already CC enemies but so did the rest of his kit. Also I enjoyed being able to select which targets I wanted to lock down with Puddle tentacle grabbing.
His 4 to me was always a last line of defense on pods or a thing to drop in one choke point while I was elsewhere with puddle. I never once looked at his 4 as my primary method of controlling enemies.
16 hours ago, brago90 said:Gainings: Hydroid has become the first warframe specialized in corrosive damage, it is able to stack corrosive and viral with a single ability (requires augment), amplifies the effects of the corrosive status and has a new ability that steals armor and increases corrosive damage (which also cures you if the augment is used).
Folding in corrosive damage is nice I guess. But I honestly CBAED to care about elemental themed WF's until the mod system changes. It's just too easy to build for everything you already want anyway that making your frame specialize in one type of damage isn't really build crafting. His 3rd ability seems insanely rushed and boring. Sure "stealing" fits with the pirate theme. But the armor system looks to basically just be Atlas at home which isn't a good thing.
16 hours ago, brago90 said:In general he is much stronger to face most enemies but he will have a hard time against enemies with shields.
In general it's not Hydroid anymore. He was stripped of the character he had for the sake of being streamlined. Even if we set aside my glaringly obvious bias about the rework there's nothing in the rework that makes someone who already wasn't interested in him want to pick him up. His kit doesn't offer any new mechanics, his gameplay is basically the same but smoother, and the new ability isn't flashy or anything. We already know the devs purposefully don't do reworks often because regardless of quality it doesn't seem to push usage stats.
So if the rework wasn't done to push new people to picking him up it must've been to make those who actually like the WF want to use him more. To which the jury is still out, but I'm going to say it won't.
2 hours ago, Wgr617 said:Horrible what the people that doesn't like hydroid is doing/saying about Hydroid.
He is a fun frame, not for high content? Well there's like what? 40 other frames? A better way to make Undertow more util? Oh you can keep undertow as a panic button and add the fuction of plunder in the number one... But no, I saw the stream on youtube and Pablo was saying that his 4th war reworked so it now holds the enemies in an ankward way to make it more easy to shot em, BUT they keep tidal surge that literaly sweep away enemies! Is extremly confusing what the vision of these people is about the game. They ruined the last original and fun frame just to please who?
Not the ones who liked to play with Hydroid for sure.
The same that happened to Ember and World On Fire, instead of adding the mechanics to world on fire (more damage more energy drained) they just removed another original & unique skill.
Exactly. He would've been fine with some QoL. This could hardly be called a rework to begin with as the gameplay for Hydroid is still the same for a majority of the people who touched him. All they really did was remove the loop around puddle since puddle is now gone.
1 hour ago, Psianide73 said:WoF could be used to afk farm.
It's insanely easy to farm trash tier content. Devs didn't rework either frame to deal with afking.
1 hour ago, Psianide73 said:Also, you seem to be part of a very small minority. The Hydroid rework announcement at Tennocon got the biggest response from the crowd, and with good reason.
Hydroid has a very small community. Putting faith in majority reaction is yikes. Hydroid will continue to be barely used because Hydroid's issue was never viability. People didn't enjoy his gameplay loop. All the devs did was remove the loop. So now you just have a walking shell of the frame that doesn't do anything new or offer any new and interesting gameplay.
No one is going to go pick up Hydroid because his 4 no longer rag dolls enemies repeatedly. No one is going to go pick up hydroid because he does more corrosive damage. No one is going to go pick up Hydroid because he has Atlas's armor passive. The rework wasn't for people to pick him up. It was to make him better for Hydroid fans and they fail to do that in my opinion.
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1 hour ago, Fiendir said:
Worst part of all; you knew this backlash would happen. This is the exact same problem of the initial Regal Aya disaster. And worse, it has the exact same objectively S#&$ty solution of "devalue plat even more" that is at best... Ignorant. Very ignorant. And at worst, downright malicious and deliberate.
Yeah of all the goofball things that surrounds this situation I find this one to be the most peculiar. Whenever I hear discussions in other GAAS games specifically with premium currency WF is always brought up as an example of a good system with it. Yet the introduction and now further inclusion of a second premium currency that directly competes with platinum in many areas seems to be at odds with how WF has always been. It boggles the mind that a company would consider hurting one of the objectively good things about their game especially when so many people use it as what is essentially free advertising for DE.
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1 minute ago, Sir_Androidno17 said:
I purchased the pack Day 1ish.
I have no need for Plat and Aya and I can see the frustration for people not wanting to pay a higher price. I also understand why they would resist a cheaper bundle etc as to not put out the people who purchased it already. But for me I have a great solution.
Keep all the packs as they are and offer the skins and cosmetics at a lower price individually too and for the people who purchased the pack originally like myself give an "Heirloom token" that can be used on the next Heirloom pack to maybe get one of the skins for free.
Yeah I think the main take away for DE should really be that the community just wants more options for purchasing. FOMO will forever be an on going discussion as long as GAAS is being made by most companies. In this case I don't think FOMO is the main issue and more it's adding pressure to the lack of options that exist for people who actually want to support DE still. Of course I could be totally wrong though.
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While this change does add more statistical value to the packs (strictly speaking when it comes to RA and Plat) this wasn't the major concern nor ask.
The primary issue I am seeing being discussed is the FOMO tied to it. I don't/didn't think you guys would go back on this but perhaps you could find a way to explain why you're taking a limited time route with it. People have been comparing it to founders/calling it founders 2.
The other issue is that many people (myself included) do not wish to have Regal Aya in the bundles. There could be a whole separate discussion tied to that for sure, but the primary reason for this ask is because some people would like a cheaper option to have the skin(s) and new cosmetic.
If I understand the post here it seems like the primary concern was to not take away value from people who've already bought the packs. If that is correct than similarly to how increasing the plat gotten does not shift the value then neither would offering a different bundle that has no Aya. Or even just allowing direct purchases instead of bundles.
Hopefully the discussion about these cosmetics is still open for more changes.
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7 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:
lol u read all the post??
You asking if I read the whole thread? No. Just commented on the title.
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3 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:
lol
I know it's the ability most people find awful on him but I genuinely enjoy zooming around with surge as a puddle and stealing bodies with said puddle to then drown them further with rain. It's definitely not the most efficient way to play. But I always found it to be fun.
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No the inclusion of regal aya is intentional. They want to push the second premium currency since the appeal for it is basically next to zero for any long term dedicated WF player. Prime resurgence is quite literally the devs trying to bilk people out of money for something that's long existed in the game now. Trying to re-sell that for only irl cash is gross and they know it. So ofc they're going to forcefully bundle it with pretty new cosmetics that people don't have and would very much want.
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I just hope puddle isn't what gets chopped. I enjoyed that ability a lot. I also find it funny that Hydroid is getting a second rework when we got frames like Frost who have more of a need.
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tbh with how scummy it is I was surprised they didn't full send and also limit the number of heirloom skins as well.
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1 hour ago, Lionsheart89 said:
I mean, it looked okay to me. Not awful, but just okay
Same. Skimmed the whole thing. I'm definitely interested to see where it's at later on but I'm also not like. Foaming at the mouth wanting more.
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8 hours ago, Silvertap said:
Actually my build for Day & Night turned out to be fun: If u manage to let 4th skill up (with its augment) and change between night and day contantanly you will auto CC the enemies, while in night u can cast sleep, and while in day u can weaken enemies. Also if u use duallity augment it becomes more interesting. Try to fit Brief Respite and rolling guard can work too. It became quite fun to play... I'm still testing her, but this Day & Night cycle build is fun, and NightSleep is quite strong too.
mm. Might be it then. I don't use the augment that lets her keep her progress on her 4 upon switching. I find her other augments to be more useful for me.
8 hours ago, Silvertap said:Well, the thing is, she is highly specialized in stealth, but Artemis Bow is not that great, even with the augment + Streanline Augment, it is more worth to use another gun. If her Artemis Bow augmente didn't have the headshot condition she would be in better place for an easy play, i mean, your team mates won't wait for your aim at the enemies head, when u finished your first shot your friends will had already killed all enemies. I'm not saying that she is bad, or invalidating your opinion, if that is how u feel, i can respect that, it is just that as u stated we disgree with each other.
Yeah a gun would do better for sure. My point really wasn't that I have 3 top tier builds for her and more I can suss out 3 unique ways to play with her kit. Which I find pretty absent in most frames these days. Apologies if my initial post on her was confusing.
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12 hours ago, Silvertap said:
This is the Feedback section, so here it goes:
Mesa: People gona hate me but, in my mind i aways see her as the most unreliable warframe in the game. She isn't bad in anyway, actually in my view she is in between medium and strong, and if i can make her full kit work she tends to go more to the strong side, and that is where the danger lies, after 40 Mot Minutes she starts to be ineficient, and sometimes potentially "oneshooted", i aways ask my self "how?" - Maybe i'm not very skilled with her, but her kit always passed a sense of security that doesn't belong to her (IMO), i guess that is my main problem when i play her, i start to relax and then death comes, actually i aways give a small laugh when i see another mesa die, and think to my self "ha, there goes your 'supremacy' " Actually the only thing that really botters about her is that she doesn't scale that well, in higher lvls using peacemaker is a waste of time, on the other hand, if it wasn't like that she would be too OP. So, my evaluation of her is: she is a 1h frame, i bet she won't do wel in steel path. (don't hate me people... i also had i time when i was in love with this frame)
Honestly I'd like a kit refresh for Mesa. Not because she doesn't work (because she's still rather good despite time passing by with little changes to her kit,) rather I find her gameplay to be rather flat. Clearly her kit is about using her 4. But it's so...uninteractive. Baruuk is also very much about his 4. But I feel like his other abilities kind of stand on their own enough. I wish there was more to her gameplay basically.
12 hours ago, Silvertap said:Hildryn: I like her, her augments did well for her, her exalted gun got stronger wich is also very good, i don't know if it (gun) will scale, but now that shield gate is a thing she might be a good frame to have in your party since she easily restore shields. She is very resistant, can handle enemies easily too. I guess she suffers the same grendel's prejudice from people, because she isn't in "society's ideal" shape people tends to find excuses to hate her. But she is very good, not a very offensive frame thought, but she has defense, CC, weakens enemies in area, and energy drops. Sometimes i hear people complaining that DE doesn't release good frames anymore, but i have a very diferent opinion about that, majority of the new warframes from a year and a half ago are very strong, people just lack experience with while loose their time looking at warframe's butts.
I've just never liked the concept. Even if her kit was made better all around I still don't think she'd see much gameplay. She feels more like a test bed of ideas rather than a frame.
12 hours ago, Silvertap said:Equinox: It has been the warframe that i spent the most energy to try to make it work since i started to play this game, i even used a Umbral forma on her. Day form has an easy logic, but she is too squish, even with shield gate, but as a nuke she works, shame that i couldn't make a "warrior" build for her, all i could do was a "build" that changed from day to night and night to day to cc enemies while i build 4th skill, but that is hurdle to play (feels like playing Diablo III in higher rifts, i don't like this kind of struggle). I tryed builds that could be used with both day and night, i tryed night builds like tank, sleep, slow and suport. Night suport is almost useless, it works, but is slow, and almost all other support frames are better then her in this aspect. Night Slow, doest the augment works? i can't feel the diference, when i notice i could do it i though "wow another nova to play" just to be dispointed. Night Tank, full umbral + hunter adrenaline + a bit of range + Arcane grace + Arcane Guardian = A very good tank frame, that weakens enemies damage, i like it very much. Night Sleep, everyboddy know how she works righs? And with shield gate this gives her another tankness form through CC and Briff Respit and 4th skill, not bad, not my favoret, but works. Night works better than Day, but Day is more used because is nuke ans "cheesable" , witch makes her more popular as squish than tank. I feel that i still have more tests to do with her, but she is wierd, i feel like i should make her work as an ever changing between Day and Night, but that is very hard to do, her passive should be "have 2 extra mod slots + points" lol.
I've never liked her personally. The idea of 2 frames in one is interesting to be sure. but I don't think it pans out. Especially since you really can't use both effectively. You build for one or the other.
12 hours ago, Silvertap said:Ivara and Limbo: I will put then here together becuase i have the same complaint about both, they are the very best for some specific content, but i would like to have some good auternative builds to play then. Don't get me wrong, i know that there is ways to play diferently, but those are not very efficient (specially in Ivara's case) and cluncky (specially in Limbo's case). These are thing that could be solved with better augments, for exemple if Ivara exploding arrow exploded not only on head shots or if Limbo had a less chaotic and more offensive augment (isn't he mage? More focus dude!!)
Well that is it, i will keep doing my feedbacks when feel like it,
Sorry for the bad english.
I'll have to disagree here. Ivara has very direct styles to play. I have one for spreading sleep, one for spy missions, and one for using her nuke arrow. Limbo's way is less direct. For him I have a small bubble but long duration for him to be the primary defense for static objectives. I have a huge range medium duration build Strictly for kuva missions to seperate fodder enemies from the guardians. And then I have a medium range low duration build for him. This is the one I use for normal gameplay. I basically lock choke points or groups of enemies down by having them constantly pop in and out of the rift. it effectively lets me kill enemies safely whilst not impeding on ally gameplay.
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2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:
Yeah and all 3 are being replaced by gear items and arcanes. Something you can put on any frame. At least Trinity can insta heal the lures in eidolon fights and make the fight a lot easier. I gotta give her that. Btw, i used to love Trinity. But that was when she mattered and also when self link damage was an interesting mechanic.
Trinity specifically stopped being required because individual frame survival went up just in their base kits alone. That still doesn't mean trinity is designed poorly. I'd say it's a good thing that we don't need dedicated supports for high end content anymore.
2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:No. There's no single arcane or gear item that allows you to push out millions of damage on enemies for the whole team. Don't you dare think Banshee is being used as a cc frame outside of excavation/mobile defense in which soundquake does a better job and allows afking. Elevate is a great tool for cc-less frames or just as a general arcane for safe void dashing and shutting down enemies on arrival. Not a replacement unlike heal arcanes that make healing abilities obsolete.
I didn't touch on damage once at all with that part so grats for moving the goal post.
2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:I'm definitely not agreeing with her being the "most outdated" nor do i agree with sonar being her only ability "worth using". You must use all first 3 abilities in tandem for best results. All i'm saying is that 1 and 3 CAN be improved and perhaps her 4 reworked (but that's up for debate). But "can be improved" can be applied to almost every frame. And Banshee works damn fine already. Especially after watching the Warframe partners complaining about the incoming "hard mode" narrowing down weapons choice and bullet spongy enemies. Just more reasons for Banshee to shine.
Semantics. OP wants to update the frame mechanically to current day WF standards. You agree she can be touched up. That's literally all I pointed out.
1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:I agree with -that- point. It clearly wasn't the entire point though--another objective was to start a fight. Mission accomplished, well done, everybody...
...but not you, Knight Raime. You really need to get with the program. 😉
I definitely haven't read the entire thread so I can't really comment on that. I disagreed with some of the particular words chosen with the opening post. I merely felt to comment because the discussion seemed to get away from itself.
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2 hours ago, Dragonofdarkness13 said:
Honestly Hysterical Assault is one of the Augments that cemented it in my head we NEED a Dedicated Augment slot because it should just be part of hysteria at base.
Fixing Paralysis would give her more group uses ...
So Hard Mode is something that is up coming, so picture a Defense mission, Banshee drops a quake to stop Enemy advancement , Mesa clears out the trash, and while they are doing that Valkyr is now able to Paralyze a quaked Heavy gunner and execute her .. so she can be taking tougher units.
That scenario seems to be what Paralysis was designed for but it doesn't perform. Valkyr isn't a 'group frame' not all frames have to have a focus on providing buffs for the team, but despite her being more of an independent frame , you role in a group is still important. She doesn't do mass CC, or trash pick up, or point defense... You see that big enemy thumping their chest and running toward your buddies or the defense target... it's her job to trade blows with it and you can see that in her kit.
Ripline to get to the heavy enemy or to get the Enemy away from the defense target, Warcry to bolster her armor slow the Enemy's actions and increase her attack speed (( it affecting allies is just gravy )) Paralysis to stun tougher enemies for a faster dispatchment or very least a larger chunk of upfront damage , and then hysteria for when the crap hits the fan and she has to attack and defend at the same time .. or attack amid area damage .. or perhaps too much trash is around the heavy target.
Point is she's her own frame... and she doesn't need to be given powers similar to others to do similar jobs ... All I'm asking is that the powers she was given WORK and Paralysis doesn't work good enough and needs to be fixed/reworked.I'm merely pointing out that the supposed uses you're looking for can be done from else where whilst bringing more to the table. I'm not against your changes.
Nourish isn't the problem
in General Discussion
Posted
Helminth from the get go was going to be a gamble. It was never going to land on it's face perfectly because of how wild the game is for your arsenal. I'm personally of the opinion that it should've never been made as a system. Or at least helminth should've been something that created new abilities that could be used on all frames. Not take WF abilities from other frames. Regardless there is no "good" way to fix it, but I don't think that makes it badly implemented.