Hydroid Needs a Rework in Warframes Posted August 26, 2020 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: Clearly you have not seen this; because that is exactly what this person was doing. Which is why Nujintuai was not a reasonable person and was using false logic. And no, they were not implying that he is "reasonably effective". They outright stated if he could do the content, he didn't need to be changed. I don't know how you think this is going to lend credence to your argument, because it doesn't, due to the fact it is blatantly clear what they were saying as well as the fact that you are not them. Yea, they pretended like they didn't take the word need to its literal extreme and acting like if Hydroid could handle the games content at all, then he did not need a change, instead acting like I was "putting words in their mouth". All you need to do is go back two pages to see that was the logic they were using and acting like just because Hydroid could get through the Steel Path, that somehow meant he didn't need a rework. Their logic was flawed and they knew it, which is why they did a completely typical response of someone when they have clearly lost and just accused me of putting words in their mouth before slinking off tail between the legs. That's why I never bothered replying to them, since that accusation was so blatantly false and laughable that it wasn't even worth the time and now you have just used it, which makes your response even more hilarious. I did see what he said. But part of the reason that you're supposed to interpret people charitably is to divine why they make the arguments they do. Most flawed arguments are made because they're trying to communicate something complex and nuanced and a shorthand version is easier than writing walls of text that no one will read. Especially not when people refuse to engage in good faith as you've bragged repeatedly about doing. The context of this thread is not improvements to what Hydroid is or seriously addressing his current problems. It's a complete reimagining of him with little if any resemblance to his current self. If you're going to just ignore that incredibly important detail I can see why you might think 'Hydroid needs no changes' is some absolutist and absurd stance that he needs literally zero help. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: You claimed it was not a problem not two post ago. There's a difference between classifying something as a thing that could use improvements and classifying something as a problem. But you're so committed to being disingenuous I suppose that nuance must have escaped you. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: I don't interpret people charitably when they use hideously flawed logic like; "Well I can survive in the Steel Path" "If he can do the content, then he doesn't need a rework" and "You just don't know how to play properly". That is the kind of nonsense that immediately tells you that the person who said is very clearly biased and not open to any kind of constructive conversation whatsoever. You are also within that crowd, since you claim that Undertow is not a problem when it very clearly is. You are joking right. Each and every one of those frames you just mentioned have far better CC capability than Hydroid. Even though Zephyr's 4th is similar to Hydroids, at the very least her tornadoes are 100% guaranteed to pick up enemies reliably due the mechanics of tornadoes and the fact range also helps their reach. Please remind me, which of Ash's abilities have relevant CC? Which of Trinity's? 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: I mean honestly, if you're going to say Nyx has worse CC than Hydroid then you might as well just say he's the best frame in the game. And you wonder why I don't take people like you seriously. There you go again with silly false dichotomies. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: No he has more survivability than her due to his puddle. So what? People actually use Banshee Prime more than Hydroid Prime according to the official usage chart; I am well aware of the chart. It's been mentioned quite a few times. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: So yea, while his puddle makes him more survivable than a frame who basically has no defence abilities at all, that doesn't mean its suddenly a good ability. That is a fallacy. I never argued that. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: I take you're referring to Tidal Surge, a terrible travel ability which is demonstrably slower than bullet-jumping. At what duration, exactly? 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: And so what if those frames you mentioned don't have an in-built travel ability? Do you honestly think that will make someone pick Hydroid over any of them due to that? Again, another ludicrous defence. I never claimed that that would make someone pick Hydroid over them. I was only responding your absurd statement that he's better than no other Warframe at anything. He is objectively faster than several other frames, he's objectively harder to kill than several other frames. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: Ah so now you're going for another fallacy by assuming that I've never played Hydroid. I suppose if you've dug that far already you might as well keep going. This may blow your mind; I play Hydroid and I hate Undertow. I love Hydroids theme, but he simply is not worth using at all due to the way his abilities work. Which is why he needs a rework. Also, who cares if certain players like yourself think the puddle is great. The majority don't and that's what counts. Citation needed. The fact that the forums like to complain about Undertow is hardly proof of a majority. You did, however, just provide rather strong evidence that you're more interested in what you imagine Hydroid to be than what he is or ever has been. It can be hard when you want to like something more than you actually like it. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: You're absolutely right. You don't need to be the best of the best, but you do need to actually be good at something. Hydroid is not. He is a student of none and a master of none. He has no advantage over any frame at all and there is literally no point in using him when you have so many better options out there that do what he does, but far better. He's good at a variety of mission types. I'd much rather have him on an Interception or Defense mission than Ash, for example. I'd rather have him on Survival missions than Banshee. He's not great, but he's certainly not a chore to play and do well with. He's a generalist. A mediocre one, sure. But that's not the same as bad. There are plenty of ways to improve him which don't involve removing him from the game and replacing him with an imposter using the same name. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: That is why he needs a rework. He doesn't need to make frames like Inaros, Nyx, Chroma or others irrelevant, but he does need to to offer something that would give a player pause for thought when choosing which frame to run with, because right now the amount of thought people spare for Hydroid is about as much as the dust mites in their bathroom carpets. What a strange list. Nyx is already irrelevant. She's in worse shape than Hydroid is. Chroma's rather irrelevant outside of a handful of very specific things. Quite frankly those two in particular perform worse than Hydroid on like half the mission types. 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: He needs to have something that the otherframes do not have and right now, all that he has is the fact that he is absolute trash when compared to any other frame in his category. Inefficient damage, inefficient CC and inefficient utility/survivability. The main strikes that determine a Warframe's usefulness. Usefulness for what, exactly? And just how useful do you expect a frame to be? 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: Stat increases will not help Hydroid. The main reason why he has remained a joke and unpopular in the community since his introduction, is due to the way his mechanics work. His stats are an afterthought if the mechanics are garbage. His mechanics are inefficient, awkward and just plain awful. Half of his ability are RNG based and the other half are just useless. You and other like Nujintuai just don't want change purely because it means you'd have to leave your comfort zone. That's not an excuse to not have a rework, especially since he is in such a bad place at the moment. Tempest Barrage's RNG is more of a quirk than a serious hit to its reliability (at least, prior to the status stacking patch breaking it). Tentacle Swarm is an issue, though, yes. But you can improve his mechanics substantially with just tweaks. I'm quite comfortable leaving my comfort zone, actually! 35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said: A rework would be a far bigger buff than just some hollow tweaks that solve none of his core issues. These frames have bigger problems than Hydroid.... See this is why I dismiss any argument that says things like this. Completely ludicrous. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling actually, considering you say a frame like Mesa has bigger problems that Hydroid. Once again I'm just going to stop replying, because its clear to anyone how poor these "defences" of Hydroid are and there really is no point in talking to someone who says that the top-tier frames have worse problems than the worst frame in the game. Mesa has more or less one ability: Peacemaker. Ballistic Battery is probably the worst ability in the game. No one is fighting to have Mesa in their squad for Shooting Gallery or Shatter Shield, either. Having one good ability, one trash ability, and two set and forget abilities is an awful lot of wasted design space. That's a far bigger sin than being mediocre at any given role. The efficacy of Mirage's Eclipse is based upon tileset generation and rarely if ever gives its full value. Prism's cast animation is awful and both its damage and CC are redundant and inferior to her augmented Sleight of Hand in most cases. Sleight of Hand itself is rather awful without the augment, too. Quite frankly, I'd much rather play a mediocre generalist like Hydroid than a cobbled together specialist like Mesa whose only claim to fame is having the biggest and most irrelevant overkill numbers.