YagoXiten
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Posts posted by YagoXiten
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Bumping because this thread has more content than the 'official' one on the front page.
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This has been suggested probably thousands of times. It's not a good idea, as many people have said ad nauseum.
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Why did you say EXACTLY the same thing? "Armor" is for damage reduction. Zero Armour is just zero damage reduction, ANY positive Armour number will give SOME damage reduction, and allow Mods that have a multiplier to get a little more, zero times anything on a Mod will otherwise still equal zero.
Try to understand the very simple fact that the "suit" we wear is Alloy. Regardless of Armour being 500 or being zero, weapons still hit that "suit" on the Alloy column and will STILL get a damage bonus.
The damage bonus some weapons get does not MAGICALLY go away when Armour "value" is zero, it would just mean that the damage reduction is zero.
From that post, it seems like there's a little bit of confusion here on your part as to what the OP is talking about. Which is understandable, since OP didn't fully explain, and this is a nuanced topic. I'll give it a shot below.
In Warframe's damage calculations, there is a 'health type' stat. For Tenno in PvE these are: Shields, alloy, and flesh.
Now, having a specific health type changes the damage calculations against it. For many health types, this can be done with straight multiplication. For example, Impact damage does 50% additional damage against shields. So 100 Impact damage against shields will actually take away 150 shield hit points. With armor, however, the formula changes to this one, from the Wiki:
(1 + Health Modifier) * (1 + Armor Modifier) * 300
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300+ Armor Value * (1 - Armor Modifier)
We will use this to demonstrate what OP means.
Let us assume that a Warframe with 15 alloy armor takes 25 Puncture Damage.
In such a case, the Health Modifier would be .0, since Puncture damage does not do additional damage against Flesh. The Armor Modifier would be .15, since it does 15% additional damage against Alloy.
After plugging in those values and simplifying a bit, we get this:
1.15 * 300
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315 * .85
And after multiplying, we get this:
345
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267.5
Which solves to:
~1.29
We then multiply that number by the incoming damage to find the actual damage dealt.
25 * 1.29 = 32.25
Notice how this number is higher than the initial damage dealt! And that this is AFTER the damage reduction percentage provided by your armor! This is because damage modifiers against armor mitigate a percentage of the armor value, and also increase the damage dealt by a multiplier.
This explains why Tenno take additional damage from certain damage types, but it does not explain why the OP says that they should either buff the armor value or remove it to increase the survivability of 15 armor frames. Well, keep in mind that having an armor value of 0, instead of 15, would mean that you no longer have the alloy armor type. (You can see this by bringing 4x Corrosive Projection against the Grineer.)
That would mean that your Warframe would no longer take additional Radiation, Cold, or Puncture damage.
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Weak weapons need an overral buff, not the only ones listed by OP, but all other guns, that are broken because the low damage, bad status, no critical and bad mechanics.
+1
The weapons with the bad mechanics, such as the ones listed in the OP, are the ones who need reworked and looked at most. The other stats are just numbers, which are more easily adjusted.
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Its not difficult to get drops from pile.
/thread
It's not about difficulty, it's about the fact that Mag has say in a gameplay element that she should not.
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First, the game is not make to the main use of public matchmaking, thats why there are clans and friend list in the game.
Second, you are trying to limitate the way mag users play, saind its bad.
Third, non mag players are the same as mag players or whatever frame you use. There will be always people that dont want frame X in the party, because they think its useless, or will screw the combo, like for exemple the way a slow nova can troll an group of loki radial disarm and vauban vortex, so she will just delay their strategy and troll*
Mag haves abilities that dont affect the party too, you are just complaining on 1 of her abilities.
And, maybe ur just too unluck, because you say mag have the abilite to troll everyone's loot, but i never saw one of those mag's you stated in your posts. All the mags i see are smart people, that follows the team, pull loot to help all the team.
If you see mag's pulling loot to hidden areas trolling the party, them maybe its better to report this kind of players.
And the mechanic to pull only loot based on side effects of clients, making anyone that wants pickups need to come close to her, will just make the flow of the mission slower and not friendly.
I just vote to stay the way it is now, and actually fix it to pull the loot correctly, because sometimes the delay can make mag pull loot, but in other people of the party, like she dont pulled it.
There are clans and friend lists so that you can form social bonds and progression through content with people you know over people you don't. It isn't there to replace public matchmaking.
Second, no, I am not attempting to limit the way Mag players play in any way shape or form. If you wanted to camp with my suggestion, it'd work the exact same as it does now, except you'd cast Pull when it is needed rather than spam it. There's no effective change. If you wanted to run around and be a space ninja, it'd also work the same way. The only thing that would be limited would be Mag's ability to command the strategies of the players in her group. I am complaining about that one ability because it is the one ability that needs complained about.
I never said that all Mag players are trolls, or even that I encounter them more than the average Mag players. Most of the Mag players who are interfering with the party aren't trolls. Their strategy just ends up doing so because it pulls loot for everyone, and neither Mag nor the rest of the group get a say in that. And this should not be the case.
Wither coptering, aerial melee, and parkour 2.0 on the way, having Mag be close for a half second cast of pull is not going to slow down the mission.
Only complain i have towards greedy pull is that...most mag players now are just spamming 1 during all the game and doing nothing more.
And for me,a players who likes to do around 40-60 waves in defense/Survival i'm anoyed.I odn't have anything to say about the mod,but looks like a big part of players now ,won't do more than 20 waves and absolutely want Mesa,Gmag,Frost and Nekros for every T4 defense :/
I don't know,i feel like the mod could be good,but it encourages minimal effort and camping and most players seems to find this normal.
Well i know it's a bit stupid to complain about that but that's really frustrating :/
Agreed, and part of the solution to that is to change the mod to require more conscious input (by making it only pull loot when you can immediately pick it up), and by removing her ability to decide what the team does (by making it only affect the loot of allies that are within a small range around her).
I'm sure there are other solutions, so if you have them, by all means, fire away! I, however, feel that what I have outlined in the OP is a pretty simple and elegant solution to fix most of Greedy Mag's problems with negligible side effects.
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Well if you dont want a mag on your team, them dont invite one, or make a group whit your friends, you are not forced to have your arm twisted playing in the side of a mag, you can just find other group's or play solo or whit friends.
She dont have powers of trolling the group, she was made to help the team, if you dont like this kind of help and like the hard running, as i said, dont play the same groups as mags.
Loki radial disarm forces everyone in the party to shoot at melee only mobs.
SpeedNova forces everyone to have hard times on fast mobs, or hard times finding slow hidden mobs if SlowNova.
Nekros forces everyone to have more health orbs and loot.
Vauban Forces everyone to bounce if he wants or sucks all mobs and loot on hes vortex.
Trinity forces everyone to have max health/shields everytime and max energy too.
Ash forces everyone to shoot hes bladestorm targets before he kills them as they got highlighted on red... ( Sorry i cant hold on this one xD ).
Anyways, making frames abilities dont affect the party is a little weird. Its like making a group a bunch of solo players all togheter.
Mag Pull dont push loot, her augment greed pull does, so its an utility she can use or not.
I fail to see why *I* and every other player should have to decide, out of game, that we always do or do not want our loot pulled, when it is perfectly easy to implement some changes that enable us to choose which we would like in any given circumstance whilst in the game. The former, current system, is binary and requires players to actively avoid the public matchmaking which the game is essentially based around. That's a problem.
Mag has the power with Greedy Pull to troll the group, and she often does it unintentionally. Once again, it's perfectly easy to implement Greedy Pull in ways that this is not an issue.
Essentially, by telling me that I should just not play with Mag, you are telling me that Mag's desire to play the game and in a particular way is more important than mine. This is not fair to non-Mag players. Which is my entire point.
The 'so-and-so' forces section is filled with fallacy, and I do not wish to pick it apart because it tries my patience.
Many frame abilities don't affect the party. Rhino's Iron Skin is not a party buff, neither is Trinity's Link, Loki's Invisibility, etc. There's not an intrinsic problem with some abilities affecting only yourself. Furthermore, as I stated in the OP, the changes I outlined wouldn't mean that Greedy Pull only ever works for Mag. It would also work for allies within a decent distance of her. This way, Mag can pull stuff to you directly by coming close to hit Pull, or you can stand near Mag whilst she is trying to Pull so that she also does it for you.
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They could change Greedy Pull so Mag "magnetizes" herself and her teammates and each player's personal drops collect at their feet wherever they may be if they're in range of her Greedy Pull skill.
That's a pretty good idea as well. The jist of what I am trying to change is that she moves the loot in ways that other players may not like.
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You do realize that mag had absolutely NO use in any squad before greedy mag right? Might as well ask DE to remove her from the game entirely
Pretty certain Mag's Shield Polarize has always dominated against shields, and is a pretty powerful defensive ability for her squad, Pull is a powerful CC ability, and Bullet Attractor is rather situational but somewhat useful ability, right? (Certainly more than some frames.) I'm not saying she was top-tier, or denying that Crush is awful...
But she was never useless, and won't be even if we removed Greedy Pull entirely. All I'm asking for is that she doesn't pull projectiles through walls and for the clients that are not near her. She can still pull loot to you, she'd just have to run near you to use it, or you'd have to run to her. That's extremely basic team strategy that takes no more effort than 'move near Frost' does to receive the benefits of Snow Globe.
Even if Mag were going to be considered unviable after these changes, that doesn't mean that she should have such a poorly designed augment. If anything, having a poorly designed ability is more reason to change it, so that she can be more appropriately balanced after some more tweaks.
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No, no, no. Absolutely not. Don't suggest Augments that change the ability to how it should already function.
If this were implemented it would just be a mandatory mod and all the problems Oberon has elsewhere still remain problems.
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The problem is not the augments lacking synergy, it is that he really only has one power that scales to any notable effectiveness with power strength, so Blind Rage just isn't very good to run.
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Dead Body Loot keeps players moving. Space Ninja --> Movement, so Dead Body Loot fits the game. The problem is DE advertising one thing then favoring another and no mechanism for the players to easily choose Space Ninja or Space Camper without interfering with each other. Space Ninja and Space Camper are opposites. They don't belong in a coop game without a coop mechanism to stop them from clashing.
Agreed. And Greedy Pull makes that clashing a lot worse, because Mag decides whether you camp or not. You can still play space ninja if someone is playing camper Ted, but it's a lot harder and vastly less effective.
People have being camping long before greedy pull came.
It will be no different.
I understand this, however, I do not understand why Mag should have such power over the other members of the group. If she wants to camp, that is fine. But other players may not want to, and should not have their arm twisted into doing it.
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In my quest for alternate weapons and play-styles lately, I finally decided to get around to trying some of the weapons I'd never been particularly interested in before.
To this end, I crafted the Embolist, as I love flamethrower weapons in most games, and, I was also filled with glee to at the prospect of a true damage over time weapon being that the Embolist has a 100% chance to trigger the Toxin proc.
Ultimately, however, the Toxin proc scales only off of the base damage of the weapon, regardless of the elemental combos you put on it, and is, thusly, pitifully weak. This is a problem with the Acrid and Mire as well.
This is utterly disappointing. Damage over time is grossly under-appreciated in most video games, and not only is it shoved to the sidelines in Warframe, but the weapons who utilize it are also low tier and rather underpowered.
I vote we rectify this. Instead of having the Acrid, Mire, and Embolist have a 100% Toxin status proc on their base damage, they will deal 4 ticks, one upon initial application, and one every second for three seconds afterward, of 25% of the shot's total damage. This effectively doubles the damage that such weapons deal over 3 seconds, as opposed to 4.5x base damage over 8.
There is no reason for this issue to remain the case. I own both the Torid and the Paracyst, and both have lingering DoTs which scale correctly on the weapon. Clearly there is no technical reason for it, and there is certainly no balance reason for it, at least in the case of the Embolist for certain, though I haven't run the numbers on the Mire or the Acrid, myself.
The Embolist is a Mastery Rank 8 weapon which manages to have less burst damage, less sustained damage, and significantly worse ammo economy than my AKMagnus. Which are significantly easier to acquire.
I am absolutely in love with the look and feel of the Embolist, even with its short range, but it is utterly disappointing as it fails as a flamethrower, as a DoT weapon, and a it's only job--to kill things efficiently.
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No thanks it's fine the way it is.
Logically how would you say it only effects those items when only needed , it doesn't make sense
It would be worth less as a mod
Your trying to balance one mod but that's not the problem the problem is that the whole of war frame is not balanced and by limiting the mod it's band aiding even more in the gsme
We play a game with space ninjas who can travel between dimensions, teleport, manipulate anti-matter, and much more. The gameplay is significantly more important than tangible logic, and it's not anymore illogical that Mag pulls only what is needed than that she only pulls her enemies.
The augment is the band-aid. It's a 'fix' to the excessive RNG and loot table inflation because it enables people to use cheesy tactics to guarantee success and longer endless missions. Balance is fixed one step at a time, and the sooner that the cheap camping tactics and overpowered Warframe abilities get fixed, the sooner exponential enemy scaling and layered RNG can be fixed to make the game actually challenging.
But, that's neither here nor there. My core complaint with Greedy Pull is that it encourages allies to play that way, even if they don't want to. I don't care if camping is good, or bad--my concern is that Mag's ability to decide which the team does just by virtue of being in the party is bad.
Honest question. Who doesn't want a greedy mag in the party? Why would you run around after every wave collecting mods if you can have them nicely piled up next to the cryopod.
I Even in other types of missions, the only people I see getting mad over greedy mag are the hallway heroes because she pulls the loot to her team and they have to stop hallway heroing to come get it.
Other than that I don't see any reason why Greedy Mag would be bad.
Because it's fun to run around and pick up loot between waves. Because the locations of pickups have certain gameplay implications for frames like Nekros, and for high ammo consumption weapons like the Amprex. A lot of the strategy and tactics you are used to and enjoy using get yanked out from under you and placed at Mag's control because she joined the party. If you don't mind her pulling them, that's great. But some people do, and there's no reason that we can't let the player's decide if they want that or not.
Interception missions, especially, highlight the issues with Greedy Pull. Mag will often take pickups, and enemies for that matter, from another radio tower to her, which requires that I go over to her to collect the loot and kill the opponents, except I am supposed to be defending a particular point, and in the meantime, some MOA hacks the console and takes it over. It doesn't just become a mild annoyance, it actually becomes a detriment to the team, unless we decide to cheese the spawn mechanics like Mag is typically trying to do. The result is that the entire team gets roped into camping because Mag wants to.
This can be an issue in some of the larger Void rooms in Survivals, as well. Mag pulls loot I am in need of to herself rather far away, and I have to largely stop fighting the crowd of enemies I have been dealing with to go collect ammo that would have been right there if not for Mag.
Hmmm, think about this: Ok lets remove greed pull. People will stop camping? No. Why? Because they can still Loki+Vauban+Speed Nova on any survival mission, camping in a corner, killing them easy and having to only walk a few meters to grab the vortex loot, them walk back to position.
They will always find ways to camp, mag greed pull actually gives some diversity to the camping thing, while you dont need to be exactly vauban speed nova and loki, making it works on other frames and helping other players to farm.
If players are camping way too much, well thats the easy and noob way they find to have fun, if you dont like it at least you can do a team of friends and play missions on hack/slash mode.
And making mag pull everything, actually is a good downside, if you only spended like 5 energy, you will waste a energy orb, meaning you will not stay still in front of mag all time, or it will be inefficient, making players actually walk a little more. Thats what i think.
Sidenote: Players are happy on greed pull mag, you know why? because nekros can be used now at least.
I've already said, the changes I've suggested are not intended to remove or affect camping as a group strategy. That is not my main concern. Do I think camping needs changed? Yes. Do I think it is unfun and removes difficulty? Yes.
But I already know that changing Greedy Mag will not fix that issue. It is a much broader scope.
However, changing Greedy Pull so that Mag cannot hijack the loot from her team as she sees fit will definitely make her less of a selfish frame to play with. That is the main issue I am addressing here.
All that my suggestion really changes is that each player gets to choose if they want Mag to pull their loot or not, rather than have it forcibly brought to her.
And Nekros has been plenty playable since before Greedy Mag was even a thing.
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You're definitely being over-dramatic. It's not like Mag scatters all drops to random places. It's pulled to one spot. In defense is usually the pod, in survival it's usually not too far from where you are in the same room. You're either running towards a bunch of scattered drops or a pile of drops. I fail to see how this is such a great inconvenience. You're scrambling in both scenarios.
I don't buy the whole "I need a bed of orbs or I can't function" excuse.
I will agree that I hate camping. I leave a group that wants to camp. This isn't a Mag issue though, is a player base issue.
Yes, and that one spot is wherever Mag decides it should be. There's no reason that she should be able to decide where I am required to collect the loot that I've worked for on a whim. And the fact that she can is a problem. It significantly affects the game-play of everyone else in the group, and it has no reason to. I have listed very reasonable changes to the augment in the OP that enables her to use Greedy Pull to help her team, or to camp, without invalidating either play-style or the her teammates who do not want a Greedy Mag in the group. Either refute my argument, or refine the suggestion, but please do not pretend that Greedy Mag is perfectly fine as is and ignore everything I've said in this thread.
I don't mind the mechanics of Greedy Pull as much as how it seems like players just spam the crap out of it making the mission much more difficult for everyone else.
That being said I wouldn't mind seeing the augment changed so that if you use Greedy Pull it no longer affects enemies. It will only affect object. That way a player has to make a choice.
That's the core complaint with this. The mechanics of the augment is what make it so difficult for everyone else, so I offered ideas to change it so that it is no longer a detriment to those not playing Mag.
Why complicate things if they don't need to be complicated?
Because they need changed. The way Greedy Pull currently works is obnoxious for those who do not want a Greedy Mag in the party, and enables a play-style which, though some find enjoyable, causes a plethora of balance issues and trivializes content.
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Mag Greedy Pull was make for utility, making mag actually usable. Shes close to trash and was forgoten for more them years before she back in the use, just like trinity after nerfs.
Well, camping was always an option, because running all over the map makes enemies respawn not work well and things like that.
I agree it need some physics changes. Lots of times it just bugs, dont pull anything or make pickups "unpickable"
Lets see how far this can go.
Mag's always been pretty good, since well before Greedy Pull. She's just never been in the meta because she's never been gamebreakingly overpowered like the majority of the meta cast.
My issue is not with her camping--it is with her essentially forcing the rest of her team to camp if she chooses to.
So why is this necessary? So I can wait longer to get items then for enemies to come flying at my head?
Even with a slight travel time, it's still significantly faster and longer range than getting them by walking over them, and you can duck out from behind cover to cast it, and then retreat. Honestly, the travel time for pulled pickups is not the core of my suggestion, it's just to make it feel a lot smoother than the weird instant teleportation.
The point of the changes is to prevent Mag from messing with the loot locations for anyone but herself and allies who are standing close to her. This prevents her play-style, whatever that may be (typically camping), from impeding everyone else.
You lost me here!
It was a response to someone else, who believes that pickups are poorly designed to begin with.
First you need to GET greedy pull. A syndicate mod.Second it doesn't make you do anything. You can pickup stuff or run through the mags pile to re-equipped. You do not have to camp. As if camping is a issue in most mission objectives anyway.
Syndicate mods are by no means exceptionally hard to acquire anymore. It takes a few weeks to get there at first, but the people who have had them since the Syndicates first came out have had ample time to purchase them and duplicates, and they don't sell for all that much platinum.
Furthermore, the difficulty of acquiring a mod should not mean that Mag has the capability to ruin her teammates experience by running it.
A Greedy Mag doesn't necessarily force you to camp, no. But a Greedy Mag who is camping will twist your arm into doing the same even if you don't want to.
It is extremely difficult to play without adapting to her tent pitching strategy when she pulls the loot that everyone else in the party needs to herself with virtually no cost. Since Mag is not moving, and you have to stay close to her or be unable to loot effectively, it just becomes strongly incentivized to not move.
Honestly, even if Mag does decide to move around, she'll often drag her stash of loot with her, thus even when not done to be intentionally harmful, it turns Warframe into 'Where's Waldo?' as you try to find wherever it is that Mag has placed the loot you need and have worked for. Not to mention the rampant Pull spamming ragdolls enemies to often hilariously unpredictable locations, which makes it rather hard to shoot at them or to attempt to melee them.
It just becomes easier to give in and start roasting marshmallows than fight your Greedy Mag 'team'mate.
And that's the core problem.
Does it really make your life all that difficult to get pickups from a pile? I mean seriously?
If it's not that difficult to pick up loot, then why run Greedy Mag at all?
It matters. Significantly. When I play Nekros, staying close to my Shadows and using Desecrate to create a carpet of Health Orbs is how I survive on high level content. Mag yanks them away from me and puts them in a pile somewhere, and I have to adapt to this or die.
When I am on any other Warframe and want to collect Energy or ammo, or credits, or mods, I don't like having to find a specific member of my team to ask them if I may please loot now. I also don't like how this often turns into standing safely behind cover on a pancake whilst I wait for Extraction because fighting Greedy Mag is more difficult than most enemies.
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I don't think Health Orbs need to heal more, just drop more. As any Nekros player will tell you, a steady supply of Health Orbs will keep your team at full HP for ages. But they never drop from enemies, and that's an issue.
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The problem is not the ability, it's the fact we have these weird "dead bodies drop stuff" mechanics.
What I am about to say are not suggestions, I'm just making a point:
Energy should be a game mechanic, not an Orb drop. Ammo should be something that we can pickup EXTRA amounts of, store, and then "burn" as Restores (in place of the current Restores), so when we use up full clips, we use a "timed" mechanic to unpack the extra ammo and fill up our active reserve. Dropped Mods from enemies should be something that gets added to a party pool and given to anyone at the end of the mission, as long as some basic "mission requirements" are fulfilled. About the only thing that COULD stay is some resource drops from dead units, maybe.
If we had this as an example, rather then the current stuff, we wouldn't need Greedy Pull mods, or Vacuum or have to run around like idiots and could concentrate just on running the mission at hand.
How many times have you ran back 5+ tiles because someone marked a Rare Mod that you might want, that dropped from some stray enemy, and you ran from the Extraction point to go pick it up?
It's rather silly we still have Diablo mechanic in our Ninja game.
My core complaint is that the Mag player is capable of manipulating game mechanics so that other players, regardless of their desire to do so or not do so, are essentially forced to play the same specific way as her. (My second, albeit less decisive, complaint is that the playstyle she is using is also an unhealthy one. This point is somewhat moot, however, as it is cyclic: the RNG heavy design encourages it, and the playstyle as it currently stands encourages more RNG to prevent content being trivialized.)
I believe firmly in the drop system. It encourages players to take risk, plan their movements intelligently, stick together as a team, and makes killing enemies a fun objective in its own right--who doesn't love the Grineer pinata raining loot when s/he goes flying across the map from your Paris Prime shot?
Not to say that I believe the current drop system is perfect--Energy Orbs in particular create problematic gameplay concerns which I will likely address in another thread at a later time--but the drop system is not the problem to my argument for changing/nerfing Greedy Pull.
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I've played a fair bit of LoL so I see what you're driving at. I think the problem though, in my view, is simply that by the way the game is designed right now, many warframes have abilities with the potential to troll big time, and there doesn't seem to be an easy solution to most of it besides: Be host, setup how you want, hope things work out. The problem with changing things too much is that it can break other things.
So you implement a check so Mag can only pull stuff that she or other players need. What about loot drops like mods? Those aren't necessary for gameplay in any way. Does she still get to pull those? That's still increased trolling potential. Does she not get too? It takes a lot of the utility out of the ability. Carrier can suck up mods, but Gmag would no longer be able to pull them in this scenario, unless I am mistaken with what you guys are suggesting here -- loot drops don't seem to be needed or necessary. Note: Obviously mods are necessary to be good at the game, I mean during the mission, picking up a mod drop has no affect on the overall outcome.
It's the same thing with Limbo for example. Sure you can roll to get out of banish, but he could just do it again, and again. Valkyr can troll people with ripline, Loki can troll people by switching places with them, Vauban and his bounce, etc. Vauban and spamming any of his abilities to literally ruin the FPS of players with not amazing computers and basically force kick them from the game.
There are tons of issues like this, and I feel like changing the way the abilities work is more of a bandaid fix that will just cause people to cry nerf/buff again and again, and won't actually fix the underlying issue at play here. And in my opinion, the underlying issue is this: DE does not want to make these powers stop affecting other Tenno so much, because it would break a lot of actual, cooperative gameplay. On the other hand, because of that, it leaves a lot of trolling potential.
In my opinion, the real solution is something people have been asking for for a long time, a vote kick option for the group, and maybe even one specifically for the host (or some kind of system like this). This way hosts who set up missions and have problem players who are not doing what they were asked, can be kicked. Then, another person can be invited in their place before any objective in an endless mission is completed (if they are trolling or not doing what you asked, you'll probably know by then). Or, if it's a random group and one of the squad members is being a big problem and not playing well with everyone else, they can actually be vote kicked.
I think that would fix a ton of these warframe ability can troll problems, and a lot of other ignorant/lying/won't cooperate player issues in general. Right now, the only way to ensure a good group is to literally play with people you already know and trust. No matter what, there will always be trolling potential for a lot of abilities, but if we can kick, we can actually deal with trolls.
I agree that there is a problem with many Warframes having trolling abilities, but the difference in (most) of those cases is that there is not an incentive to use them to screw over your allies, nor do they do it as a side effect. Limbo can banish you and prevent you from hacking consoles, yes. But he has no reason to do so except to be a jerk. If he goes around Banishing every enemy so no one can damage them, you can still at least use your powers to kill them, and his own progression is halted by this trolling tactic. With Greedy Mag, what is optimal for her is not necesarily anywhere near optimal for you, and she's going to harm you whether she really means to or not in most cases.
You are mistaken as to what I mean. Loot drops can land in different locations for each client. I see no reason why Mag couldn't pull the mods for herself, and only pull them for the clients who are standing near her. Energy Orbs and Health Orbs would be pulled in a similar fashion. If you are standing near Mag with less than max Energy or max Health, or max Ammo, she would pull that, too, if you needed it, even if she did not.
A Vote Kick option could be handy, but most Greedy Mag players aren't INTENDING to force a specific playstyle. They're using Greedy Pull so they can camp, which is fine. The problem is that it makes it difficult for everyone else in the group to avoid camping if they don't want to. Because of this, fixing Greedy Pull is much more beneficial than everyone just being able to remove Mag from the group if they don't want to camp.
Yeah, I'm with you there. Many people I have run with recently (from randoms to friends to clanmates) all see Greedy Mag as a "necessity" and refuse to allow other playstyles. Every game invariably ended with us hiding somewhere while the Mag pulled loot. We often didn't even make it that long in Survivals due to the poor location we stayed in solely because of the idea that "Greedy Mag makes this easy."
Suddenly, no matter what frame and weapons I brought or what I wasn't hold beforehand, I'm forced to hide somewhere or risk having messed up spawns due to my allies' placement and no loot thanks to the Mag.
It's also incredibly annoying in matches where I'm actively killing, run to grab some energy/ammo/mod/etc., and watch helplessly as the drops instantly travels 50m away through walls to an ally hiding in a corner.
It was a nice augment at first (and can be nice in solo), but it's gotten more annoying than anything.
If the augment must be kept, just change it so that the pulled items are only moved for the Mag herself. If I Pull a mod towards me, that mod would not be affected on other players' ends. Drops already aren't always in the same locations for hosts and different clients (most clearly seen in Archwing), so this could take advantage of that.
This is basically what I am suggesting. Mag pulls pickups she can immediately use, rather than all pickups, and pickups for allies who can also use them who are standing close to her on the cast.
Well, I can only say "I tried", I really encourage players to play the way they feel like to doing so, what you want (stop them from playing their way) is just as bad as what you blame them for. I may blame some players for doing things like rushing to void as fresh tennos with 1 or 2 warframes, as it's not good for their enjoyment of the game (and the community) to be there and answer questions they should be able to find answers to. But then again, haters gonna hate. If you want to complain, do it. I honestly don't see them complain about people that don't camp like people that don't camp about the ones that does it.
Has this community reached the point where you want people to have a less funnier experience with the game because of your selfish desire or fake sense of right and wrong blinded by your own game style?
I don't mind if Volt wants to go set up an Electric Shield tent and stay there the entire mission. I don't mind if Nekros wants to stand on the Cryopod and use Desecrate the entire mission. I don't mind if Limbo goes around in Rift Walk banishing a single enemy at a time. None of those playstyles, not a single one, prevents me from playing the mission in my own way or impedes the other members in the group. Greedy Mag, however, forces the rest of the group to go find her to pickup the ammo, energy, health, mods, and credits that we have worked for. It ends up promoting everyone to camping, because it's just easier than to try and fight with an ally.
Nerfing Greedy Pull because you don't like camping or feel that it encourages the practice would be a rather selfish change.
It asserts that DE should support your playstyle at the expense of someone else's.
Players camped before greedy Pull and player's will camp if (or when) it gets nerfed or removed.
A wiser course for you would be to choose to not camp and not join groups that plan to do so.
Another wise course would be for DE to implement a LFG system and allow players to add LFG notes to themselves after setting their status to LFG.
There are other people who share your interest in playing endless modes without camping choke points.
You just need to make an active decision to play with them instead.
Some content is extremely difficult to solo. Therefore you join groups. Sitting around in Recruiting asking for specifc team compositions to avoid Greedy Mag drastically slows down completeing content. A much easier fix is to make it so that Greedy Mag no longer gets to control where the loot goes for the entire group. Only herself and perhaps players near her.
The problem is that Greedy Mag pretty much FORCES her team to play with her strategy. She is one of four people. She brings Greedy Mag and the rest of the team's opinions goes out the window. What you are basically saying is that it is fine for her to force her team to adapt to her playstyle, and that is my responsibility to find a group to cater to me, rather than everyone being able to go into a mission and play their own way and cooperate with each other on fair terms. Because it is not fair that Greedy Mag's 'team strategizing' comes down to 'Mag wants to stand here, so you'll stand here or suffer.'
This is sort of like what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. Instead of trying to nerf/buff every single ability that could potentially negatively affect another player in coop (with the unintended consequence of possibly breaking that ability for legitimate coop potential), we should have some sort of better grouping system. Whether it's a vote kick at least for the host, or for the group, or some kind of better LFG system, the true solution is to give us better control over the way our squad is set up. The group should be able to band together to kick a troll, a host should be able to kick a player in the lobby, or later, and invite someone else, if the player is not following what the host asked for, or is generally being a pain.
Whilst I agree that there should be some options for such a feature, I do not believe this is needed in the case of Mag.
Greedy Pull enabling camping is not an issue. If you want to camp, by all means, go for it. I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes, I enjoy it. I have a Volt, a friend has a Limbo, we've definitely set up a Cataclysm / Electric Shield combo and pitched a tent. The difference is that if I go into public doing that, the other members of the group are free to not do that. If I was on Greedy Mag and decided to camp, the rest of the team has to play along because I control where their loot goes, and they need and want that. So they either leave because I have an unfair say and they don't like what I am saying, or they stay and adapt to my whims. Neither of those options is fair for those three other members of the group.
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Greedy pull could possibly use some modifying, but part of it just depends on the skill/playstyle of the Mag as well. Right now, in the interim, you can solve this by hosting and if someone does use a greedy mag, ask for a different playstyle. Ask for a Gmag who isn't a pure camper, because they aren't all campers.
Not that I play Gmag, but I've played around plenty who do, and they do not all come equal. Some are just campers, and the way they camp in certain missions is actually a detriment to the team, other teams it's really helpful if that's the strategy you planned. Hosting solves all of this because you get to plan the strategy and walk if people won't cooperate.
I was playing an intercept once with some people, I don't remember where. The gmag didn't just stand at an intercept point and use greedy pull over and over. Instead, she hopped around to other people's points and pulled all the nearby pickups to a spot near that squad member, so we could conveniently grab all the pickups without running too far from the spot we were guarding.
And then she would run back to her point regularly to keep an eye on it. Really cool, and can show how a helpful player trying to help the whole team can be absolutely amazing with Gmag exactly how it works now.
A lot of warframes have abilities that can greatly mess with other warframes abilities/playstyles. Gmag is only one of many that way, should the ability really be changed, or should we teach people to play better and control our own missions by hosting?
I'm going to look at League of Legends for a moment to demonstrate an example. For those of you who are not familiar, Anivia is a character in League who can create a wall of terrain that blocks both enemies and allies. Ideally, this is used to block off enemy characters to either isolate and kill them, or to block them off from a path they would have chosen to attack you from.
This ability, as you can imagine, can be used for trolling, and be detrimental.
Greedy Pull is similar to this, in that it can be undeniably helpful, or also be used in a way to promote trolling.
The key difference, however, is that typical and optimal way to use Greedy Pull, because of the other mechancis in the game, is to camp and invalidate your allies. Anivia's wall, however, does not have this problem. It is not more beneficial to use it in a negative way, so though there is the potential for trolling, it is not typically used in this fashion.
I am all for teamwork, I am all for Mag pulling pickups to her team when they need it. But the ability does not currently work to support that playstyle over the camping setup.
The changes in the OP fix this issue by making it so that she is only able to pull pickups that are needed. As I have it worded, it is currently only for pickups needed by Mag, but one could easily incooperate a check that will pull objects that benefit allies within say, a static 5m, so that it will also work for her team, but it will not do things like enable her to pool resources into a camper's fantasy, and if someone does not want Mag to yank pickups to her location, they can always stay away from her.
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Hmm I don't think that way, I think that Mag's pull should attract both credits and resources/ammo, but not affinity/health/energy. Why? because the first ones are in metal cases (i think) so they should be attracted, but the latter ones are just floating energy. This would still make people run for health/energy but would make a good pile of ammo for the players.
In this game, like it or not, we are not given any kind of "you should play this way" or "that way of playing isn't allowed" so complaining about camping isn't right, you know... If you don't like camping then don't do it, if you want to go and kill stuff around the map running then do it, no one is stopping you from that.
Complaining about camping in this way is perfectly legitimate. I'm fine with someone playing Volt, and someone else playing Limbo, setting up an Electric Shield, and sniping enemies from across the room whilst invulnerable. Those two players doing that doesn't stop me from running around and killing enemies and playing my usual way. They are not impeding me. They do not require I join in. I can, if I want to, stand in Cataclysm or have Limbo banish me. But I do not need to.
Greedy Mag, however, selfishly pulls all of the loot to her. So wherever she is standing, I have to either repeatedly run to, to aquire loot, every minute, or stand nearby. Since Mag can do this whenever she wants, every other party member is FORCED to adapt to her playstyle. And, to make matters worse, not only does she force people to play this way, but on many missions...this is optimal, because it trivializes content and helps to overcome the grind wall that is Warfarm.
So camping with Greedy Mag extorts you to play along with her for two reasons: One, the metagame, which you can ignore, and Two, the Mag player controls where drops go. That one you cannot control. Since you're pretty much forced to camp due to the lack of drops otherwise, AND it's just plain easier and more effective...You pretty much must either pitch a tent or leave the group. And no player should be able to single-handedly control gameplay like that.
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Just add line-of-sight mechanics that DE seems to like adding to a lot of other skills. :) And Greedy Pull shouldn't pull items through "solid" objects like walls and crates and the like.
That doesn't fix the problem, though. Yes, now Mag has to step out from the box to use Greedy Pull, but then she does, moves two steps, pulls it behind the box, and carries on as normal. This is a band-aid fix that does nothing to fix the intrinsic problems with the ability promoting camping.
Furthermore, it doesn't change that fact that Mag, whether she's trolling and doing it on purpose, or merely just using Pull to try and help herself, can steal pickups from her team and place them in unhelpful locations.
Seriously, try to play Nekros on higher level content with Greedy Mag. So much of your survivability comes from picking up Health Orbs, that you drop instantly if you're not around a Greedy Mag when she's spamming Pull, because you're never in range to pick them up and then they're with her.
It encourages way too much passive play.
Like it or not it is part of the semi-open world that we play in. We are given the choice to play our game our way. If you are not compatible with a member of your squad find a new person or squad all together.
It's one thing if you don't like the way your group is playing. It's quite another if you're not allowed to play your way at all because of their strategy.
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wai chu hatin de gud stuf?
I fail to see how it's good that I'm practically extorted to play a fast-paced action game like a casual iPhone game because one other player in the group has decided to spam one ability.
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I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but I have a max rank Flame Repellant and I'm not afraid to use it.
Greedy Mag should get changed:
First, the ability should only pull to Mag pickups that she can immediately use. IE, it only picks up Health Orbs, and Ammo if she is below maximum. If she has 275/300 Energy, it would only pull one Energy Orb. Basically how Carrier works. Second, the objects being affected should have a travel time as they get to her.
EDIT: For clarity, Mag would always pull mods, credits, and affinity orbs, to herself as these are always desired, and the travel time is there to imply that LoS is also necesary to pull a pickup.
As discussed below, some allies may want Mag to pull pickups to them, as well. Therefore, I suggest that in addition to the above changes, Mag will also pull needed ammo, health, and energy pickups (mods, credits, etc. too) to her for the clients that need them within 5m or so of her. This can be done as drop locations are capable of being in different locations for each client, so she wouldn't be able to Pull loot unless you stood close to her and wanted her to.
I know that, on paper, Greedy Mag is meant to pull pickups to herself, or to her team to be helpful in a pinch. It's meant to allow her to pick up an Energy orb or Life Support pack from across the room when she couldn't safely run there. And I know that some people play her exactly this way, and that's great.The problem is that due to the mechanics for Greedy Pull, camping is encouraged for the entire party, regardless of whether they want to, and here's why:
We meed pickups.We need ammo, we need Energy Orbs, we need the mods and the credits and the Health Orbs. To get those, and to be promoted to run around like ninjas hacking through the opposition, rather than spending the entire game hidden behind a box, we have to go run over them. Greedy Pull removes the need for this. It is easier to sit behind a box with an Energy/Health/Ammo restore and be cheap, because Warframe AI and grind mechanics. I know that I do not have to play like this, if I do not want to. But it IS generally optimal, which means players have a reason to do so. And if you have a Greedy Mag in the party, you aren't given a choice. If the Mag decides to camp, you had best bring a tent. Because she is going to camp, and she is going to pull your loot to her, and you are not going to be able to pick it up unless you play along and stay close. And it's not as though there is a much of a limiter to how often Mag can pull the pickups, or how far. She can drag them halfway across the map with a few quick casts.
Maybe it's just me, and I'm alone in feeling this way. But I am sick of playing Nekros and having safety net, my carpet of Health Orbs, pulled away from me to whereever Mag decides they should be. I am tired of finding normally easy to complete objectives rendered utterly uninteresting by content trivializing magic pancakes and the Mag that usually guards them.
Trinity's Energy Vampire And Energy Color.
in Warframes
Posted
It should be changed to energy color, I agree. Blessing, for quite awhile, used to always be green. Then it was tinted green and your energy color, and now it's just your energy color. I play a lot of Trinity, and this has always bothered me.