YagoXiten
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Posts posted by YagoXiten
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On 9/23/2016 at 2:15 AM, (XB1)InfernusXcanis said:
I'm not sure how, but i can see an implementation like this going pear shaped so fast. So many variables would need to be covered.....
It also allows for a very high level of control with regards to balancing variables.
On 9/23/2016 at 4:54 AM, ScribbleClash said:I hope they don't ever do this. This would put Snipers in an even worse place as they already are and Soma in an even better place than it already is. A gating mechanic wouldn't make things better in my opinion, it just means that APS(attacks per second) weapons will outclass high damage weapons.
Simply put: I do not see how this would be any improvement over the current system.
It would do absolutely nothing to Snipers, assuming that you can do two of the following:
Have multishot
Score a headshot.
Land a critical hit.
Proc a damaging status effect.
Have the correct elemental combo.
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38 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:
The Secura Lecta has an increased attack speed over the original Lecta. Attack speed affects Melee Finisher animations. The Secura Lecta does not have a secondary passive that boosts the speed of Melee Finisher animations.
There was a community moderator who posted in one of the Syndicate weapon threads who said that it had 50% faster finisher animations, and they said that information was directly from the devs. Apparently, each Syndicate melee weapon is supposed to have two passives. Datamining also said that the Secura Lecta had increased finisher speed.
I am well aware that attack speed affects finisher animations. And whilst I haven't tested it, myself, there's a pretty easy way to do it. Simply take Volt with -50% Power Strength from Overextended, cast Speed, and use the normal Lecta to do a finisher, then compare it to the Secura Lecta with no mods equipped.
EDIT:
Here is the thread and said post.On 9/16/2016 at 2:04 PM, theclinton said:Im telling you straight from a dev that the second passive is faster finisher animations lol
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5 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:
I agree that the Secura Lecta's passive was lazily thought out, in my opinion all the new melees needed two things. 1. A small fluff related bonus while having it out, like the, Sancti Magistar, Rakta DD and the Telos Boltace have. Lecta could have had a bonus to shields or to shield regen or something- anything really. 2. A passive that modifies how you use it somehow, the boltace and the magistar do this the best, the Rakta's passive almost seems like it would fit the Lecta better because of Perrin having more association with shields.
The Perrin Sequence's Sequence effect is also Radiation damage. Whilst I understand that the Dark Dagger is a Radiation innate damage weapon, it doesn't have that much status chance (even with Gleaming Blight equipped), and it's an odd effect choice for Red Veil. I don't think it's an outright wrong thing for the Red Veil to have, but it definitely seems like it should have been on the Secura Lecta. Especially when realizing that the second passive for the Secura Lecta is increased speed for Finisher animations, which is far better on a Covert Lethality weapon.
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44 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:
Just want to say to whomever thought they could restrict my ult to "ground cast only"...I don't have to live by your rules.
I succesfully aircasted discharge by double jumping/pushing random buttons while bullet jumping next to a wall....could not reliably do it when I wanted, and it might be something everyone else has already done, but I did it and now nothing and no one can stop me from enjoying volt the way I want to, except large open tile sets
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You can cast it whilst engaged in a Wall Latch. That's likely what happened.
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3 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:
It has everything to do with what OP asked. Sorry if you cannot see it. Players want to prowl and live. To do longer missions or missions with enemies that damage without seeing you, you have to prepare for them. Rapid Resilience, or changing aura to rejuv to counter lost health, or adding health/shields at the cost of power or efficiency or range. If unwilling to make those changes, then you have to kill them before they can affect you which will cost you loot but let you live. Ivara is already borderline over powered. Making it stronger is bad idea.
You're still missing the point.
The issue isn't so much with the increased energy drain on taking damage in Prowl, it's the fact that there are several damage sources that drain it hilariously fast. And even if there's counter-play and ways to prevent it in most situations, there aren't in all situations, and it often ends up that you space out for half a second and end up dead because you rounded a corner with an Arc Trap. It just feels awkward and cheesy. Not to mention, melee hits drain Energy, you drain Energy for moving, you drain Energy per second, and you drain it on damage taken. I think most people would be much happier with a (higher base) constant Energy drain rather than all those relatively arbitrary and different Energy drains. -
This isn't a rework. Or anything resembling a rework, really.
It's a nerf to Energy Vampire, and nothing else changes at all.
Well of Life is no less a dead button than it is now. The healing is still entirely redundant, and the 10x HP increase makes it entirely awful as crowd control. It's now just an awful, unhelpful version of Bastille that doesn't scale with Power Strength, requires more energy, affects less targets, and requires casting a bunch.
Energy Vampire is not even remotely a fun ability to use with this. It's almost exact copy of Devour, but without being spammable CC, and affecting Energy instead of health (and she doesn't have something like Sandstorm to work with it). She can't do anything whilst doing it, it ends upon several very easy circumstances. The sad part is, for a nerf, this isn't even going to affect EV Trinity. She's just going to be forced to buddy up with someone and spam EV and nothing else (which is what happens now, except you can technically do stuff currently). I mean, yes, Link stops CC from interrupting it, I suppose? But that's not really interesting either way.
Link currently grants 75% damage reduction. Blessing is easily modded to grant 75% damage reduction. Together, that's 93.75% damage reduction. It's not going to matter all that much that she can scale Link's damage reduction with Strength. And it'd mean that she'd be at 98.75% damage reduction if she did.
This fixes basically none of the problems Trinity has.
For the record, those problems are:
1. Well of Life is pointless at best, outright harmful at worst.
2. Energy Vampire is boring and horrendously broken.
3. Link is very boring and not particularly relevant, outside of the damage reduction.
4. Trinity doesn't have anything to actually do with her own powers, other than be immortal and break the game with Energy Vampire/Blessing. Which you can easily mod to the point where either all you do is use EV, or all cast Blessing / Link once every eon to refresh your invulnerability.
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On 9/21/2016 at 7:35 PM, MJ12 said:
If you make armor meaningful against Lancers/etc, you want as little health as possible because if a Lancer bullet is dealing, say, 5% of your maxHP, you'd prefer low HP (so each health orb gives you a lot more durability) to high HP. If your armor is not meaningful against Lancers, you result in the problem where it's literally useless because single rapid-fire enemies will chew you up at higher levels.
Also, "tactical based survivability" is a buzzword that doesn't say anything. When you're playing a warframe dependent on health for survivability and doesn't have an Inaros-tier health pool, if armor doesn't function as it does now, you absolutely do not have any survivability as Valkyr. Your system makes Valkyr less durable than Loki because Loki at least is less likely to take permanent dings to health that don't regenerate, compared to Valk. Every single one of the 'heavy' frames gets shafted save Inaros, and only then because he has 5.5 times the health of your average Warframe base, and somewhere closer to 10 times when fully leveled. Warframes are way too fragile in endgame content, which means you are heavily dependent on making sure enemies never get to fire at you in the first place. This isn't fun, because it means either the game is trivial or impossible, with no in-between. Enemies should be putting pressure on you constantly, but never individually deadly enough that one rando Lancer in a sortie can fire a burst and you instantly die.
The only game which implements an "armor" system like yours is XCOM: Enemy Within, and the result of that is exactly as I said-people use this cap on health damage per hit by finding guys with the lowest possible health to take more hits from enemies.
If you want to create a "balanced platform" the platform should not immediately exacerbate literally every issue the game has. This literally addresses none of the balance issues (overpowered Warframe CC, enemy damage scaling rapidly outpacing survivability, weapon scaling rapidly outpacing survivability scaling, multiple different scaling algorithms being used), while simply creating additional balance headaches.
Yes, it's 'significant' on weapons which are already non-viable. It is literally a straight-up nerf to weapons like sniper rifles which are already not endgame viable.
Except Lancers would be dealing a scaling, flat (versus percentage) amount of damage. And you'd decrease the percentage of health damage they deal by having higher health. And yes, healing would provide a higher percentage of health if you had a lower amount of it, but since having a lower amount, as I just stated, actually increases the percentage of health you lose when damaged by rapid fire, that's rather moot. You'd still be better off running a higher amount of health, because most of the relevant healing in Warframe happens on a high enough scale to where you actually heal less by having lower health than you would if you had a larger pool to fill.
It isn't even remotely a buzzword, or a buzzword phrase. Do the current defensive Warframes have no tactical options to avoid damage other than direct damage mitigation? Well, they all have rolling, and parkour. They also all have the ability to take cover. They also all have some degree of CC from their powers: (Paralysis, Devour, Rhino Stomp, Miasma) They all have some defensive ability: (Iron Skin, Hysteria, Sandstorm/Scarab Swarm)
Loki is already incredibly durable because he doesn't take damage, so it's kind of moot to compare Valkyr to something that doesn't change, either way. (Though that definitely should.)
The note that "it means either the game is trivial or impossible, with no in-between.' is completely true CURRENTLY, unless you play the meta. This fixes that, with the exception of enemies that fire rapidly. And, as previously stated, that is not difficult to adjust. You could literally go in and tweak the damage of enemies that fire rapidly to be lower than it is currently. I could even tell you, mathematically, what a fair way to do that would be. But the one thing that I will say, is that when I die on Volt in Sortie level content, it's never to the MOAs, even with dozens of them shooting at me, unless I'm stunned. Even if I get hit and lose the majority of my health to a single burst from them, what actually does me in the vast majority of the time is a single Lanka shat from a Nullifier, a single step into a Sapper Osprey squad's layered mines, a Bombard rocket, or a Ballista, a Butcher, or a shotgun blast. And even when a MOA is my death, I usually deserved it for some reason or another, or there were multiple of them that I let gang up on me. And it doesn't feel half as cheap.
It does not even remotely immediately exacerbate every issue the game has. It makes them worse for the handful of frames who, currently, have the tools to completely mitigate their enemies, or their enemies damage (And that is why we have things like Nullifiers.). But that means that we can then look at those frames and fix them much easier, and again, it only makes those issues worse in the case of enemies that use shotguns or that use rapid fire guns, both of which are a lot easier to balance.
You fix the base issue of binary one-shot gameplay, and then the outliers become a lot more apparent, and you can establish a smoother and more fair balancing curve.
This doesn't fix Warframe CC, and it fixes one-shot enemy damage scaling (permanently) and with no further changes, the enemies who do not one shot you do not change, though it'd be very easy to fix those with some number adjustments after the fact. It also makes weapon scaling remain essentially the same (so we don't have to give up power) without making them more overpowered, and it makes them less overpowered on lower-level missions, and multiple scalin algorithms being used is the furthest thing from a problem. Intrinsically, anyways. Though I will admit that the Warframe devs do have a habit of changing algorithms rather arbitrarily.
It is literally not even remotely a straight-up nerf to Sniper Rifles, since, again, it's very, very, easy for them to still be able to one-shot any enemy early on (with the exact same loadout as they have now) and this does NOTHING to change damage at later levels, against enemies who have so much health that your weapons can hit maximum without going over the gate value, and they'd still be able to one-shot enemies at higher level, due to the fact that the gate value is set to a range which makes having the correct elemental, or including multishot, or getting a critical hit, or relying upon status, or getting a headshot, or any TWO of those, let alone three, or four (which is easily achieveable) capable of dealing lethal damage on all the enemies they currently can.
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It's a shame they don't get more love. They flat out need DPS buffs, and a new stance.
When they were first released, the Kogake were top tier. They had Physics Impact damage, which was one of the best damage types (only having their damage reduced against certain generally obscure enemies, and it was only a 50% reduction) otherwise they were not affected by armor, and they were capable of innate red crits. For some reason or another.
I like both stances to a certain degree, but Grim Fury has too little kicks, and the break-dancing of Brutal Tide really feels a bit random and hard to control.
I'd really like more round-house and sweep kicks in my life. -
Howdy.
I use the Torid quite a bit, it's one of my favorite weapons. It tends to spike off to the right, and upwards, if you fire it whilst an enemy or object is within a certain range of you. It's generally pretty close. Perhaps that might be what you're experiencing?
No idea why, though. It's a really annoying bug, but it's been there forever. And as many bugs as the Torid has had, it's pretty minor. -
On 9/19/2016 at 3:50 AM, Sikelh said:
Okay and now there is an extra delay on putting himself into the rift waiting for it to register as a hold reducing survivability as well as adding the same delay to leaving the rift which throws off the timing of some melee techniques limbo can use. As well as making errors based off the smallest lag hiccup far more likely.
Livable but I'd personally rather it not.
I like that some ideas are coming that aren't just to drop the rift entirely though.
It'd give him an actual second ability. And it'd probably come with a reduced cast animation and one-handed casting for flowing purposes.
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6 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:
hi, i see there's no more space for the SOTD aguments in the build of nekros, becuase desacrate become very importants and the decay of the shadows with his number reduced to 7, has nerf the aguments....
We all knows than the Decay of shadows is a problem because is too high and the AI of minnions isn't great.
Can we possible if we change this another aguments?
example: reduce the base decay of undeads to 0.5 but you can't heal the shadows just summon....Will be a new idea , the shadows before the rework was strong and after 60 sec in a build with 200% of duration they can't die for the hand of the enemies at high levels, so this new aguments can help us ? or it's too OP?
It wasn't nerfed. Actually, it was buffed.
120% Before: 6% per Shadow x 8 Shadows = 48% damage reduction.
120% Now: 7.2% per Shadow x 7 Shadows = 50.4% damage reduction.
200% Before: 6% per Shadow x 14 Shadows = 84% damage reduction.
200% Now: 12% per Shadow x 7 Shadows = 84% damage reduction.
215% Before: 6% per Shadow x 15 Shadows = 90% damage reduction.
215% Now: 12.9% Per Shadow x 7 Shadows = 90.3% damage reduction.Also, I'm not sure how you do not have room in your build for it. Nekros generally would run Despoil and Equillibrium, and probably Natural Talent. Past that, Vitality, or Quick Thinking, or Health Conversion, or Shield of Shadows, or some combination of those.. That's a minimum of four of eight mods, maybe five or six if you wanted to be ungodly hard to kill. What're you doing with the other slots? You don't utterly need any other stats. You hit 71.4% damage reduction on Shield of Shadows with just Power Drift, Growing Power, and Intensify. So you have one to three more mods left you can slot on him. If you wanted more Strength, a rank 9 Transient Fortitude or higher will hit just over the 90% damage reduction cap on Shield of Shadows. If you wanted more defense, throw on defensive mods. If you want some Range, throw on Stretch. If you want efficiency, run either Flow or Streamline.
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:
This is what my initial idea was for a unique passive for the Secura Lecta, and I'm glad someone feels the same. Because as whip-wielding economists, Tenno must be ruthless and efficient like the free market to earn their credits on the field.
Having each credit add to the combo counter sounds like a really fun way to buff it, too. I mean, you'd be able to add thousands of hits to your combo counter, basically ensuring at least a 4.5x multiplier pretty early on. It'd still have some issues at higher levels, but at least it wouldn't fall off quite as bad.
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1 minute ago, Retepzednem said:
all it needs is more base damage so its status procs deal proper damage
the reason atterax works in the first place is because it balances out its low base damage by having a 3.0x crit multiplier
so i'd rather they upped the lecta base damage and dropped its crit chance to 2.5% or heck flat out 0% as long it got its damage raised by 50% or doubled
Status procs don't really do damage, though.
Heat's damaging proc does not stack.Electricity damage is utter garbage.
Cold does not deal damage.
Toxin's status proc is amazing, and a good base damage type, but useless without a way to remove armor.
Gas damage is kind of awful, though the status proc is really effective...it isn't particularly great unless you can strip away armor (such as with a Shattering Impact viable weapon, or you have one with innate Corrosive, such as the Tysis, or you can remove armor yourself, or you are playing with 4x CP).
Corrosive procs only deal 'damage' on armored units, and isn't affected by your base damage and also has no purpose after a certain number of procs.
Viral's status does not stack, and is merely refreshed, and is not based upon damage.
Blast does not deal damage.
Radiation does not deal damage.
Magnetic damage is a joke and also does not scale with base damage, or stack relevantly, and is entirely moot when you'd be running entirely Toxin damage against Corpus.
I'd rather they just gave it 25 Impact damage, changed the base damage type to Corrosive, or made it have some kind of status-procs increase damage or channelling damage or critical chance, or status effect damage, or made Electric procs with it reduce armor so you could run Gas / Electric without it feeling awful. -
Chipputer's right. He doesn't need that many changes. He needs some tweaks and some touch ups, not a complete rework or anything.
If I were to change Oberon, all I'd do is move the bleedout slow to his Hallowed Ground, move the armor buff to Renewal and make it a flat value instead of a percentage increase, and then allow Renewal to stay on even when at full health, and not have a duration, and then change Reckoning to make it so that enemies picked up release an AoE in a small area that deals 12.5% of their maximum health split evenly as Radiation (with 25% status chance, affected by Power Strength) and Impact damage, and remove the blind, though the knock-down still remains.
Boom.All of Oberon's problems are solved. The bleedout slow is powerful and would be capable of reviving allies who are on it long enough, helping Oberon to get people back up, or even to get himself back up. Changing Renewal to a flat value and removing the silliness with shutting off at full HP allows it to offer minor sustained damage reduction and healing rather than largely pointless burst heals, and Reckoning now fits its name, working best as vengeance when out-numbered and the Health Orb generation is capable of being relevant at all levels of play. Yes, the blind removal is a minor nerf to the ability, but, realistically, Oberon's Reckoning is kind of absurd. It does some of the highest damage in the game for a nuke, which happens to be Radiation, and it knocks enemies down, and blinds them, and can generate Health Orbs, and with the Augment, create damaging zones that also grant armor.
EDIT:
And make his passive be that Tenno gain reduced aggro from enemies. This is particularly relevant, because it'd mean that the Radiation procs draw more enemy attention than they do now. -
1 hour ago, DiosGX said:
I'm going to be honest, I still fail to see where you got a 1200 out of that at all.
This is also irrelevant for when all weapon stats, health and armor scaling, and every other system get eventually overhauled to actually be balanced. The way it's been spoken of on streams sounds like a better solution than blanketing a few key issues and hoping someone doesn't exploit that too.
Let me put it this way: have you considered how powerful weapons like a kohm and mesa's peacemaker would become based on your first post? It still comes down to more hits = better.
I thought I made that clear. I chose 1200, arbitrarily, because it was a nice number to illustrate the math.
Of course I've considered how powerful weapons like that would become. It's not as though you can't make tweaks to their damage to bring them in line. The point is to establish a system that prevents binary one-shot gameplay, but still allows for infinitely scaling enemies, fast paced gameplay, and skill based survivability, rather than stacking absurdly high levels of damage reduction or CC.46 minutes ago, MJ12 said:You haven't solved any of the scaling problems. You've just made them worse.
The armor change makes Valkyr and Chroma and other armor-based Warframes unplayably fragile-at Sortie levels, a single Grineer Lancer is doing something like 25 damage a shot, with 20 shots a second-Valkyr looks at that under your system, and instantly falls over dead. In fact, they lead to the hilarity that an armor-based Warframe should have as little health as possible. Similarly, your multishot nerf is a solution looking for a problem. It doesn't actually solve anything-most of the endgame weapons you see will perform just fine without multishot because they're shotguns or have other good qualities.
Running as little health as possible would actually make smaller damage instances kill you quicker. So you would still value health. And as of now, a Lancer would be dealing that kind of damage. But it's not as though we cannot adjust the damage formula. Or the specific armor values of each Warframe. That's as simple as changing numbers. Or, if you wanted to be a bit more nuanced, you could just add a brief half-second or so of invulnerability for only the Tenno when they take a combined total of damage within a certain time-frame that is equal to their gate value. I'm also not sure why Valkyr should be upset that she can be killed. We should all want to encourage is tactical based survivability, rather than merely having the highest passive damage reduction in the game.
I didn't invent this system and run the full calculations on it to make it perfectly balanced. Though I could, if you'd like. I did it, as I just said, to invent a system that removes mandatory mods, diversifies modding, rebalances existing weapon classes, fixes survivability issues, and fixes enemy scaling issues. The point of it is to create a baseline system that all things are based on. I don't pretend that it wouldn't require follow-up changes or some other tweaks. I'm just asserting that it would provide the most balanced platform for balancing the game and preventing trivialization of it, whilst keeping things like infinite scaling and absurdly powerful weapons.
The multishot mechanical change is done for exactly that reason: It doesn't nerf the current endgame weaponry. What it does is allow it to be significant to certain weapons, but not to others, and makes it competitive with other options like recoil reduction, rather than being a given mod tax on every single weapon.
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20 hours ago, DiosGX said:
Let's see, I could do 1000 dmg, and have armor applied to my damage once. Or hit for 500 twice, and have armor applied to each hit, lowering the damage twice...
Why?
1 minute ago, DiosGX said:Where are you even getting these numbers from? Did you completely misinterpret what I said or what? It has no bearing to my comment at all.
There's your previous comment. I was assuming you were expressing concerns with what I said about multishot, questioning why it would be worth using, or something to that effect.
I just used those numbers on a whim to illustrate why multishot is relevant under this system. -
1 hour ago, ShadowFox14 said:
Double credits on kill. Which either doesn't even work, or we can get uneven credits basically, because I'm getting amounts of 135 and 261 credits from mobs that I kill with the Secura Lecta.
But even if it worked, every 8th mob drops credits, and that's so abysmal it barely even makes a difference.
Also, it's a MR8 weapon. If you reach that rank, you pretty much don't really care about the credits from the mobs. You can do a simple Dark Sector mission which gives 20K for just finishing a 5 min survival. Nobody cares about an extra 3K credit that you can get from mobs in that time.
All the other syndicate melees have passives that help the player in combat (even if they are hard to use, like the charge attack on the Sancti Magistar) and they are mostly useful. Compared to those, the Secura Lecta doesn't deal more damage, and the passive is so useless that I can't even see any change.
The Secura Lecta would be a pretty good weapon, nice range, good status chance and deals an okay damage as well. I also find the Coiling Viper stance actually quite fun and pretty fast.
This weapon could have such amazing passives, and yet we get this. I had many ideas when it was confirmed that we will have different passives, but didn't know if I could submit my own ones.
So I'm just giving you my ideas that I had:
Because it's basically an electricity weapon, could be
<[no channeling cost]
<[100% electricity proc while channeling]
<[every time you hit an enemy you gain X amount of energy]OR because it's Perrin Sequence, the passive could be
<[each X amount of credit picked up would grant you X% damage buff]
<[every X amount of credit would give X to your combo counter, hence increasing your damage multiplier]And I could come up with better ones, these were just the results of a few minutes of brainstorming.
Some other Syndicate weapons even have 2 passives, so keeping the double credit and adding a second one that's good for combat would be the best option that would suit everyone's needs.YouTube, the Warframe Forums and Reddit are all filled with disappointed people about the passive. That should mean something.
Please, DE, think about the community this time, and not about what YOU think is good.I'm a huge fan of either granting channeling damage on status procs, changing the base damage type to corrosive or adding impact to the base electric damage, or making each credit picked up add to the melee combo counter. That last one would actually be amazing. We might have a weapon besides the Redeemer that can feasibly hit a 5x Combo Counter.
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3 hours ago, Arkvold said:
Not at easy as you think. Corpus and Infested would need armor added to nearly all their non-boss units. Corrupted would need armor added to all of their Corpus-derived units. Plus you'd have to consider how much armor you're adding.
The reason why I made the comparison to nullifiers is this - nullifier shields effectively have capped damage on both ends of the range, and any damage above the the cap or below the cap is clamped to the nearest cap. Your system would do the same to literally every enemy in the game, only having no lower cap and the upper cap based on the victim's armor. Your system wastes a lot of damage output on a lot of weapons. Even factoring in that stealth kill and headshot multipliers would be factored in after the gating effect, any damage outside the gating would be lost and not multiplied. Meaning that eventually, as health scales up with level, there is literally no way to one-shot an enemy with attacks that, by all rights, should one-shot them, no matter how powerful or well-built your weapon is, because the maximum amount of damage they can take is capped.
For example, say that, due to armor, under the amount of damage an enemy will take is capped at 500, and your weapon is guaranteed to do more. Your stealth finishers on that inflict 4x normal damage, after all modifiers are considered. So long as that enemy has 2,000 health or less, it dies, sure. But the moment that enemy reaches 2,001 health or more, it doesn't matter how much more damage you stack, so long as your stealth finisher damage modifier is 4x, or that armor value isn't reduced, you cannot one-shot that enemy anymore with a stealth finisher. And it will get incrementally worse as their health scales up. At 2,501, they can not only survive a stealth finisher, but also another hit from anything you can throw at them. At 5,000 health, they can take two straight melee finishers and live.
Do you see how this is a problem? This is not only unsatisfying, but also outright dangerous. It devalues normal attacks and normal damage and requires you to look for ways to bypass the gating mechanic in order to kill enemies efficiently. Finishers become more important as they're the only means of bypassing the gating to any degree, which means that, paradoxically? Ash becomes more powerful in this environment - or did you forget about his ability to trigger finishers on enemies stunned by Smokescreen or those he Teleports onto? And the fact that Bladestorm is Finisher damage? You cite him as one of the reasons you dislike playing in Sorties, and this idea would just make him that much more potent. Corrosive Projection will become more important as Armor is still the god-stat that determines everything about your ability to take damage, even moreso than it already is. Why have shields at all in this environment, unless armor applied to them, too? Why have any other aura mods besides Corrosive projection, since that's the only one that'll actually help you kill anything faster.
You complain about explosive weapons invalidating things like snipers and other single shot weapons. That's not a fault of the explosives - they're just doing what explosives do - maim and kill multiple victims at once. They got nerfed recently in that they no longer auto-headshot unless you actually detonate the explosive near the victim's head, so that their head is the first part of the victim touched by the blast. So now they're working-as-intended. It's just snipers and bows that need an overhaul to function as the ranged fingers of death that they should be. Yet your idea would hurt them because it punishes bodyshots - they now have to land a headshot to bypass any degree of armor gating. Warframe's a fast-paced game, you don't always have the opportunity to line up a perfect headshot, especially with a bow.
Your idea would do nothing more than induce frustration, wasted calculations, and make people wonder how they can have weapons that inflict tens of thousands of points of damage and still not kill anything with it, which is both unintuitive and unrewarding. It would take one of the reasons why Nullifiers are so hated right now ("why can't my sniper rifle or Opticor pop that nullifier shield like a soap bubble?! It goes through bombards like a freight train!") and expand it to every enemy in the game. Please take it back to the drawing board.
Adding armor to a unit is, mostly, merely setting a variable to a value. If that's the case, you could probably add armor to every single enemy in the game on your lunch break. As for how much armor to add, that should be pretty easy to figure out. I could also do that on a lunch break. You just need to calculate how resilient you want enemies to be. 500 for things like Corpus Techs, 300 for things like Comba, etc.
You seem to be ill informed. See, actually, as health scales up per level, you can still very easily one shot them, provided your weapon currently has enough damage to do so. The gating is based off of maximum HP. Not their current health. Not their base health. If they have 2500 HP and 300 armor, then the cap on your damage would rise from 500 to 1250. And the 4x multiplier would easily dispatch them. So, no, I do not see how this is a problem.
Nor do I see how this would only allow finisher damage to be relevant. There are still a great many other ways to bypass the gating. Fire rate, multishot, elemental combos, headshots, critical hits, status damage...At least one of those is available fairly reliably to every weapon in the entire game. Corrosive Projection is not the only way to improve your damage. Just because there is a gate in place does not mean that your damage is irrelevant. As enemies health gets larger and larger, your weapons will eventually fall behind to where they cannot do more damage than the gate protects from. In that case, your basically hitting an enemy for exactly as much damage as you can do with a full loadout.
My apologies, I had originally included that it would be added to shields in the first post, and I did talk about it later in the thread, but I must have cut it out whilst editing the post. I'll just go ahead and add that back in.
That IS a fault of explosives. Explosive weapons should flat out be weaker against single targets than dedicated single target weapons. Right now, many of the explosive weapons are some of the strongest single target killers, on top of being able to mow down hordes with little to no effort, accuracy, or thought. And, it does not punish body shots. It rewards headshots. There is a huge difference. The only time that you would be unable to instantly kill something that you can instantly kill now would be a bodyshot on a slow firing weapon without multishot, a proper elemental combo, critical chance, or status chance. I honestly cannot think of a single weapon in game that would have an issue meeting the criteria for that. The Penta, for example, fires slow and has little status chance, and little critical chance, and it can be difficult to get headshots. But if it were running Radiation damage, it would be capable of dealing 65.625% of a Bombard's HP with a single explosion. And that is without multishot. Under this system, if you mind the fact that you'll have to put a little more effort into killing heavy units, you run multishot, or you builld for critical hits or status. Or you just aim.
Nullifiers are very different. They have a gate on the damage they can take per frame, and also ignore multipliers like critical hit. This is based upon damage instances.
It's only marginally unintuitive, and it is not less rewarding. You would still need your weapons to deal large amounts of damage to kill enemies, especially as their level increases. However, it changes modding progression from being a one-way ticket into godhood into a means to merely progress further in the game. It keeps lower leveled enemies more relevant than they are now, without making them difficult to kill. At the absolute most, it would take you three shots to kill a Bombard. And that's bodyshots, without damage type considerations, or armor reduction effects, or status chance effects, or critical hits, or multishot. There's not a single weapon in the game that this would slow down, if you ran a loadout accounting for it. -
35 minutes ago, Arkvold said:
The idea of enemy armor not scaling with enemy level is great. Warframe armor is static save for mods, I don't see why enemy armor gets to scale. It would end a lot of the scaling issues that occur with armor, causing armor to be the god-stat that determines whether or not you can kill an enemy.
I don't like the rest of your idea though. Why? Because of two reasons.
Your health gating based on armor idea fails in the face of enemies that do not have armor. Second of all, it ensures that no enemy can die in one hit unless you have obscene levels of multishot and enough raw damage to put them down. We already have an enemy that can't die in one hit - it's called a Nullifier, and the fact that they can't be one-shot outside of their bubble is a huge reason why they're so tremendously annoying if you're using a heavy, slow-firing weapon and don't have a rapid-firing alternative and can't safely close to melee range.
I do not want to play Warframe if every single enemy has the same kind of durability as a nullifier outside of its bubble. Gating mechanics are fine when applied to players, because any given player is going to endure a lot more attacks being thrown their way than any given enemy. Giving gating mechanics to enemies just serves to artificially lengthen their lives and thus the time they spend being a threat to you, and it both cheapens and weakens a lot of weapon types.
For instance, if your idea were implemented, forget playing a sniper rifle at all. Not only do rifles have less multishot potential than any other weapon (they have no equivalent of Lethal Torrent, and Split Chamber provides only 90% multishot, compared to Barrel Diffusion's 120%), but sniper rifles are built around the idea of one-shot, one-kill. Their slow fire rates and reliance on carefully picking your shots while under high zoom magnification (and thus having no situational awareness beyond what you can see with the scope) ensures that, if enemies can't die in one shot it's going to take a very long time to die compared to other weapons.
Your idea would also interfere with stealth kill mechanics. A stealth kill occurs if you can drop an unaware enemy with a single shot, whether it be from melee range with a Stealth Finisher, or from a distance with a sufficiently high-powered weapon. Being unable to kill enemies in one shot means that stealth kills from range become impossible (and bows become useless, as their main advantage over a sniper rifle is their silence), and that melee stealth finishers only serve to soften up victims, who you then have to take out with normal melee attacks.
Explosive weapons would also lose value. No longer could you blow up a crowd of weak enemies with a single shot, as their gating mechanics would ensure that they survive it. When I grenade a pack of chumps, I expect them to die, not be blown over like I'd just shoved them on the playground, only to get up and start attacking me again.
Making your idea work would require a lot of exceptions to the gating system, modifications to existing enemies, and a terrible amount of snowflake coding. I can't support that.
Add armor to enemies who do not presently have it? That seems like a pretty easy solution.
I'm not sure why you'd think that it would be anything like what a Nullifier has. This is based upon damage instances. The Nullifier's bubble has a capped rate of reduction per frame, and that's very, very different.
Did you miss the part where headshots and damage type and critical multipliers are factored in after gating? I think you missed that part. An enemy with 300 armor would die in one shot to a sniper rifle that normally would one shot it, so long as the hit were a Criitical with a 2.0 multiplier or higher, the shot was a headshot, or if you had multi-shot. You could also use Corrosive Projection, which would reduce a 300 armor enemy to 210, which would mean that you'd only need to have the proper 75% elemental combo multiplier and enough damage to kill them.
A stealth kill would still very definitely be possible, considering that, as I just explained, one-shotting enemies is not a problem. And, again, stealth finishers are a multiplier which, as I mentioned (though not explicitly in this case) would be calculated after gating.
Explosive weapons losing value is part of the point of this. You're worried about gating harming snipers (which, as I've detailed, would not actually do so at all), and still want to keep explosive weapons as they are now? I love my friend Mike, I play with him a lot. I still get really tired of his Amprex destroying everything in the room behind cover before I can even pull charge a shot on my Lanka. And he's usually pretty nice about it. I solo sorties, because if I go into them all it is is Tonkor, Simulor, Bladestorm, Exalted Blade or whatever the flavor of the month room destroying cheese is. It gets old. If we have weapons that can put out sniper level damage on an entire room, why the hell would anyone use an actual sniper or single target weapon?Anyways, you would still be able to blow up weak enemies in droves, provided you're using the correct elemental combo, or getting headshots, or criticals, or some status proc, or you use Corrosive Projection. You would not, however, most likely instantly kill the heavy units like Bombards in a single hit with them. You might have to possibly fire twice, or just use multishot. I'm sure the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor would be just fine with a teeny slap on the wrist irrelevant nerf that requires they take half a second extra to kill heavies rather than just everything within 15 meters. And I'm sure people would enjoy using a lot more different weapon types if there was less competition to mow down crowds with AoE damage and CC weapons.
It really doesn't require that many exceptions. You just calculate multipliers after the gating. And Warframe is built off of an awful lot of snowflake coding, though I don't see why this would have to be snowflake coded at all. And that's really not my concern, it's not as though I'm capable of knowing their coding or how it'd interact with it. I don't work on the game.
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2 minutes ago, Angrados said:
Okay, so the concept is interesting. But I have to ask, and perhaps this is the obligatory silly question: You mention max health for Warframes, but what about shielding? How would the gating behave with a Warframe's shield, if at all? Unlike Inaros, most Warframes do have a certain level of shielding that allows them to mitigate a degree of oncoming damage- would this gating technique give rise to new shield builds, if that behaves on different principles than the health gating system?
The way it would work on shields is the exact same way as it works on health, and it is based upon maximum health, but shields regenerate unlike health, and they have a different interaction with various damage types.
Take Volt Prime, for example. He has 1110 shields with a maxed Redirection. Without Vitality, he has 300 health. And his base armor is 100. An armor of 100 means he cannot take more than 75% of his maximum health in damage from any single hit. With 300 HP, the highest amount of damage in a single instance that he could take would be 225. If he were to equip Vitality he would be able to sustain a maximum damage from a single hit of 555. Now, at first, this seems like Vitality would be a bad thing to equip, since it would mean he takes more raw damage from large hits, which lowers the effectiveness of his shields since he could take more damage on them, even though the percentage of maximum HP remains the same. But it is important to remember that the gating only protects against large hits. The result is that while he ends up gaining less longevity for his shields by equipping Vitality, he gains a much larger pool of health against smaller hits, such as those from a Lancer's Hind. Vitality also adds a large pool of health to be converted to Energy with Rage. And it also enables Fast Deflection and Fortitude to see some play, because increasing the rate that you gain your shields back can make up for having 555 shields depleted from a Bombard rocket, rather than 225.
On other Warframes, such as Valkyr, you would be able to gain a very large defensive boost by equipping Redirection and Steel Fiber with no Vitality. In that case, 1200 armor and 300 HP means that she could take a maximum of 60 damage per instance. Whilst this may sound very strong on the regenerating pool that shields are, it would mean that she would not be able to run Rage. It also does not help her much against Corpus Techs, because their high rate of fire will still be able to chew through her.
Against enemies that are low level, remember that this gating would change almost nothing, because enemies would already be unable to hit you for more than the gate value.
At the same time, though this may provide you with significant defense at very high enemy levels, you are by no means immortal. The sheer number of smaller hits you will take will very quickly whittle you down. Enemies with shotguns can likely still one shot many frames, because even with no Vitality, Volt taking 225 damage from eight pellets (and remember, that this is before calculating in damage type, is is possible it would be more than 225 damage, if it were Impact against shields, for example, it would deal 337.5 damage) with only 300 maximum HP would kill him. If he threw on Vitality, there's a good chance that even though he allowed each pellet to rise a bit above 225 damage, they would not be dealing so much damage that his health would be completely depleted, and he still would be protected from at least a single Bombard rocket. This gating doesn't protect you from everything. Being one-shot by a Detron Crewman could happen, but in general, we do not want squishy frames to be immortal. We just do not want them getting one-shot against unavoidable things. And enemies with Shotguns have limited range, and can be avoided. You could still die to two consecutive Bombard rockets that come in one after another, but there's also a good possibility that you could avoid at least one of them.
It won't protect you from everything. But it will give you a fighting chance in far more circumstances than we have currently.
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28 minutes ago, DSpite said:
1) Stop fighting enemies of level 200+ because you are not meant to. DE will implement enemy balance when it starts balancing FRAMES. Stop trying to go 1+ hours in Defense. You are farming. I know that, DE knows that, we all know that. You are basically saying "please make my farming easier against high level enemies" when the opposite is what needs to happen.
2) We have an entire ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more killing power then enemies. The only thing that saves them from one being one shotted at all levels is the scaling. You take that away we one shot level 500+. First, lower OUR killing power, THEN fix the enemies.
3) I fail to see what that changes on actual weapons that fire bullets. Might as well not use it, and then we have another slot for a BETTER damage mod. Split Chamber is a Mod that should do DIFFERENT things for DIFFERENT weapon classes, the Mod itself needs to change.
4) No. Things like crit spots are the perfect things for weapons like Snipers, or people with good accuracy, AND a reason to waste less ammo against tough enemies, instead of the standard "pray and spray" techniques. If anything, enemies need a more CLEAR definition of where the critical spots are. Taking out Loaders in Borderlands by shooting at joints was one of the most FUN things about facing even high level loaders. We should have MORE of that, not less.
You are requesting "fixes" to a problem that does not exist unless you face enemy levels that are FOUR HUNDRED PERCENT higher then us.
Please feel free to list how many games you know that has players facing off against enemies even twice their max level and still managing to just walk over corpses at max running speed. The word "level" has to designate "a scale" and when level 30 Frames face off against level 200 enemies, it should mean "instant death", not "a slight bother".
1. I don't fight level 200+ enemies. In fact, the highest level enemies I've ever seen in a mission have been level 125 or so (unless you count the 9999 Tactical Alert). I could fight higher level enemies, true. Though I will admit I do test weapons in the Simulacrum regularly against level 110 enemies, and I do run damage calculations on enemies of level 140. I do not enjoy Defense, and so I do no more than 20 Waves of Defense ever, and even that is a massive rarity. There is no reason to farm against high level enemies anymore, with Void 2.0. This is entirely a pointless section of your post.
2. That's precisely what this does. I'd be happy to run the numbers by you to prove this. Under this proposal, we no longer get one shot by Bombard rockets or Ballistas. We are, however, still capable of going down virtually instantly to Fusion MOAs, Lancers, Detron Crewman, etc. as they deal multiple instances of damage. Our AoE weapons like the Synoid Simulor would be unable to easily terminate the entire room in a single shot, as it would take at least two explosions to destroy even the weakest of enemies, unless you could deal enough damage with the proper elemental combo multiplier, or a headshot, or a critical, to ensure their destruction. And that would still not be enough to terminate things likes Bombards and other heavy units which have more aggressive gating. This balances AoE weapons. Single target weapons such as the Soma Prime would still destroy and mow through single enemies as they do now, but the trade off is that they are single-target. Shotguns would be able to one shot anything, up to a point similar to now, as would Snipers. In essence, fire-rate, hit count, accuracy, critical hit rate, status chance, and damage type, all become relevant factors for dealing with the gating, which is now necessary. You'd have a variety of ways to achieve succes depending upon the weapon and what you enjoy the feel of, rather than aiming for strictly a DPS race.
3. On assault rifles, not much changes. Correct. But this opens them up to mods like Stabilizer, Hush, Critical Delay, Fast Hands, etc. This is diversifying the class. AoE weapons change, so do shotguns and snipers. Quite a lot, actually, depending upon the stats of the weapon in question.4. Headshots are not removed. Critical damage is not removed. In case you were not aware, a Critical Hit with the Dread, baseline, does 2x damage. A headshot does 2x damage. But a headshot that is /also/ a critical recieves an additional 2x multiplier (a total of 8x damage). This is the reason that critical damage is king. It is a multiplier, that also comes with a free multiplier. This is the reason that weapons that are critical weapons, which have a hard time getting headshots, are significantly less viable than they appear to be on paper. It actually skews game balance, and rewards a particular multiplicative damage increase (critical hit) more than others, like fire rate, high base damage, or status chance.
5. These fixes are relevant at all levels of play, and I'm not sure why this escaped you. It makes it more difficult for higher geared players to chew through lower leveled enemies. So rather than a Mastery Rank 22 player coming into a mission on Mecury in Public mode and being immortal and being able to kill the entire map with his Rakta Cernos' Blight proc, he is just immortal. This also means that people like Mag will not be instantly killed in T4 missions. And yes, this does happen, and no, these are not level 200 enemies. These are level 40 Void missions. It can happen even on Pluto to certain frames. Level 200 enemies under this system would still be a significant challenge. You would merely not be one shot. You would, however, still be very capable of dying in a few hits. And you can still be hit in rapid succession by Lancers and killed. But you will not be killed because you took a single tick of damage from a Sapper Osprey mine.
12 minutes ago, DiosGX said:Let's see, I could do 1000 dmg, and have armor applied to my damage once. Or hit for 500 twice, and have armor applied to each hit, lowering the damage twice...
Why?
If an enemy has 300 armor, and 1000 HP, lowering 1200 damage to 500 is more than a 50% reduction in total damage dealt. Lowering two instances of 600 damage to 500, however, will be only a ~16.67% reduction in total damage.
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21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:
With regards to the multishot change, then what's the point of multishot? To have a less accurate weapon?
17 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:This rather defeats the purpose of multishot. It won't increase the damage so it's not a stat buffer, and it won't increase the spread enough to pretend it's more useful for clustered enemies. At best, it'll be a slight status boost, for a horrendously high cost.
I was hoping someone would bring this up.
No, it very much so does not defeat the purpose of multishot. You see, with a gating mechanic in place, the Dread or the Lanka, even with infinite damage, would have their damage reduced to 37.5% of a Bombard's maximum health. Whether that Bombard is level 8 or level 140. That sounds like a problem, right? After all, it'd be pretty awkward to have a weapon that can deal insane damage in a single shot to be unable to kill a very low level enemy. That is because this system is based off of reducing single instances of damage. But multishot would reduce the damage dealt of each shot, and in compensation, allow you to deal two instances of damage. In essence, partially bypassing the gating.You'd be able to deal 75% of a Bombard's maximum health, rather than 37.5%, since you hit twice. With critical hit multipliers, or elemental multipliers, factoring in after the gating, you'd actually be able to deal 2 [Critical Multiplier] x 2 [Multishot] x 37.5% [Gate] of a Bombard's maximum health, for a total of 150% of its health, killing it. Or if you were using Radiation damage, and the shot did not crit, you would deal 1.75 [Radiation] x 2 [Multishot] x 37.5% [Gate], for a total of 131.25% of its maximum health. If you did not hit the gate, because the enemy has far more HP than you are capable of dealing damage, then you gain no direct upgrade from multishot as far as damage goes, though you might if you factor in status procs. If you hit the gate easily, even with multishot installed, then perhaps you would be better off using Elemental damage, or critical mods, or fire rate, or reload speed. This makes each weapons loadout vastly different, depending upon what you are going for, since it is no longer all that important to specialize in pure damage.
Weapons like the Soma Prime, who fire very quickly, would likely never deal enough damage per bullet to worry about the gate. So they would be wanting to specialize in pure damage builds. Multishot would still remain an option, but would not be mandatory, since the gate bypass would not matter. On high level enemies, anyways. On lower level enemies, though, a fast firing weapon would hit the gate, and would want to include Multishot, because it would, otherwise, drain more ammo to kill an enemy. But they could also run Ammo Mutation. Against higher level enemies, the status procs might be valued enough to run multishot.
Depending upon what weapon you are talking about, this would add either a very significant amount of build variety, or they would still have one build, but it would be far different from other weapons.EDIT:
In other words: Modding becomes about options and choice.
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Hello, ladies and gents. I've a laundry list of simple suggestions (which will, sadly, probably never be implemented) to fix Warframe's enemy scaling, mandatory mods, and individual Warframe's survivability issues in one fell swoop.
1. Armor applies to shields, and is changed from a percentage damage reduction on all damage to a gating mechanic per damage instance based upon maximum health. In other words, rather than 600 armor reducing 1000 damage to 333, and 2000 damage to 666, all damage greater than 33% of maximum health is reduced to 33% of maximum health. Thus a Valkyr with 740 maximum health and 600 armor would be unable to take more than 247 damage in a single instance. A Valkyr with 1200 armor and 300 health would be unable to take more than 60 damage in a single instance.2. Armor values are now static for enemies, exactly as they are for Warframes. A level 140 Heavy Gunner would have 300 armor, the exact same value as a level 8 Heavy Gunner.
3. Multishot now splits the damage dealt evenly between the total shots, rather than adding more that deal normal damage. So rather than Split Chamber allowing your Torid to fire two shots each dealing 500 damage, it would fire two shots each dealing 250 damage.4. Headshot critical bonus removed. Critical hit multipliers, elemental damage multipliers, and headshot multipliers are factored in after gating.
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1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:
Gas Normal Lecta kills Grinner Augmented Armor in Sorties with no Corrosive Projection
Gas Normal Lecta also kills Grinner Elemental Enhancement in Sorties
I did say Melee status procs do not fit most playstyles in my previous post.
Inaros, Banshee, Ivara, Excalibur, Equinox, Oberon, & Mirage are who can exploit Gas Stealth Melee DoTs ; Saryn with Gas Lecta Quick-Melee or Gas Serro can also stack DoTs at an insane rate
These are Frames that benefit more from Status Stealth Multiplier melee than crit viable melee weapons.
The largest benefit that Secura Lecta would get without needing Weeping Wounds is the access to Red Crits on Slide Attack while still maintaining a Gas Status build or enhanced attack speed with Berserker.
(Primed Pressure Point, Primed Fury, Primed Reach, Volcanic Edge, Virulent Scourge, Body Count, ________,_______)
Either Weeping Wounds occupies a slot or if 100% status is obtainable because of passive mechanic then a player can slot Maiming Strike & Blood Rush, or Berserker
If those aren't much of a buff...then we we aren't seeing things on the same page.
Even if DE didn't want to create a new mechanic....a base status chance buff from 25% to 45.5% would be most ideal for those that want the option of Status viable melee rather than the more common crit heavy weapons.
If the desire is for the Secura Lecta mechanic to be more beneficial to overall gameplay: the Doubled Status chance Multiplier could be applied to the characters weapons so that merely carrying a Secura Lecta and picking up credits is just status chance buff to all equipped guns.
I actually love status weapons and builds, for the record. The loadout I use on Sayrn is Corrosive Mutalist Cernos, Viral Tysis/Pox, and attack speed/crit Shattering Impact Mios. The problem is that it's niche and gimmicky and only viable on those few frames. And you could still do that on the Atterax almost as easily, so it still doesn't make the Secura Lecta stand out...
Da Fense: How Gating Pens Warframe Balance
in General
Posted
The gating is a constant, however. So it likely would be able to work quite nicely.
It's not the best system out there, and I won't pretend it is. But is is capable of allowing fair endlessly scaling enemies, without intruding upon our current levels of power. And I think there's something to be said for that.
High RoF weapons would be powerful, but those sorts of weapons do tend to be somewhat lackluster in the AoE horde destroying weapon meta.
There are plenty of ways to bypass the gating, and it would not matter against the highest level of enemies. Offensively, anyways. It's a pretty strong upgrade defensively, for all Tenno! It does nerf our current 'god-frames' but, that nerf means consistency, and allows us to re-balance things appropriately.
Even exceeding the cap, you'd still be able to one-shot an enemy with multi-shot and the correct elemental combo.
Yes, actually. I typically run the Mutalist Cernos on Sayrn, and the Lanka on Volt. Nekros tends to run with either of those two, or the Synoid Simulor for simplicity's sake when farming.
Yes, exactly! A critical multiplier of 4.4x would be more than capable of one-shotting a Bombard with 500 armor with this system.
Status chance needs some reworks. But it does factor into this.
Corrosive would not be idea. You'd actually be able to run a number of things and still be relevant. Electric has a .5x multiplier, but with a multiplier of 4.4x, you'd be able to two shot any Bombard you can currently with the /appropriate/ elemental combo. So you'd have a bit more freedom, if that makes sense?