Quintinw

This is a very bad and genuinely stupid take and hill to die on. >WE< pay DE >WE< play their game >WE< should be able to tell them what we want for a product they are providing to their consumers And before you hit me with the "But issssss freeee doee~", you know damn well there are some people who fullsend their paychecks to fund them, otherwise there would be no game due to not being sustainable.

Ken didn't do Dante justice honestly, in regards to builds. it's either full-send on Noctua Exalted w/ Nourish or full-send Tragedy with either Nourish or Roar (Would still recommend Nourish though, since energy will be a problem without it). Also has some misinformation with Wordwarden having Multishot and Fire Rate mods on a build he showcased, which have no effect.

Same happened with me at MR13 because I was bored and felt like carrying a 60 Eyes run. Already did it several times by this point. Joined a party, got told I wasn't "Endgame" even though everything I had was, and still is capable of clearing everything with complete ease rn. I heard afterwards that guy failed his runs that day, meanwhile I went to a different group and finished very quickly and easily. Really, MR means nothing. Revert Dante LoS. Keep his range.

Coming in to say that MR means absolutely nothing outside of unlockable stuff. Your MR doesn't reflect player knowledge or skill. Outside of that, I agree with you. Keep Dante range. Revert Tragety to no LoS.

Yo. Stop asking for nerfs to Tragety in the form of lowering the base Range to compensate for the return of No LoS. We shouldn't be trying to compromise on a mechanic that SHOULDN'T be implemented with Dante, much less the game as a whole. Keep his range. Remove LoS checks. No.

Just coming here to say that this doesn't happen to Dante at all, and for Styanax, the only way it happens is if you're: -Not paying attention -Lacking uptime on 4 casts (Shouldn't happen generally with Nourish, which you should be running if you're using Augment), or hitting something to gate or -Dying to your own damage due to the bubble from Malice. Overguard is absurdly strong, but if we're not talking about deleting things like Mesmer Skin there's literally 0 reason to even have this type of discussion lmao.

The cap doesn't matter because he regenerates it over time, so it'll always gate and keep you alive. Also, if you stack 400% P.Str, you can get over 50k.

Forgive me. When I replied to Kat, the Forums didn't update properly to display your reply. If it did, I would have responded at the same time. I can give some ground and agree on Attenuation, but in regards to Invulnerability phases, this is pretty standard in gaming in general, across many genres, so I don't agree there. Boss immunity to abilities is an interesting case and topic, but that's a lot to go through, especially on the forums. I don't agree that the mindset I have in this particular case is an issue. My general stance is that I disagree with taking power away from players they worked so hard for when there are other avenues to your desired outcome that won't cause major issues down the line. And, no, I don't think that this change itself is a major issue, but I do see it as enough of an issue to voice my distain for, as many others have pointed out that it's likely they'll keep doing this over and over whenever something else becomes popular in the small pool of useful options. Also, hurting builds that relied on it previously doesn't look good either. I don't see Nourish as an issue itself. I see the system as a whole as an issue due to the fact that there are a lack of options that are useful or even niche, and hitting Nourish at all isn't the best course of action. You could just say "Alright, well I don't agree, so whatever", instead of saying that I'm wrong when you cut the discussion with no other rebuttal. Well, ok. Honestly, the same logic could apply here in reverse: Why not find a way to make room for a mod that would solve your weighting issue with your own build prior to the change? Or have lower Power Strength to get a lower modifier? Obviously that would be asking for a lot, but the same is true for the other side as well. It goes both ways.

This isn't how this works. A core of a build isn't determined by what we believe SHOULD be. Rather, it's by how the game is designed right here and now, and unfortunately, there are things that require Nourish to work properly. Originally, this system was created as a bandaid to Frames that had an ability that wasn't worth using. However, what instead happened is that now some Frames need them for specific builds to work. The game is too engrained with this current system to look at it otherwise. Which is something I said previously, as well as not every Frame needing Nourish to perform, and some doing better without it in niche circumstances. I'm not against you here. It very much so is nerfed. It being weaker is objectively a nerf. I don't agree that it's ruined, but this change has directly impacted builds that required it in its previous form to function or perform well, and saying that those builds shouldn't exist because of the way you, personally, see the system after it has been this way for years is foolish. Which is the core problem that needs to be addressed by giving other Helminths either Augments or by changing what ability is given by the Subsumed Warframe, not hampering build diversity by making it weaker. And before anyone else says it, no. making Nourish weaker doesn't encourage diversity. It just makes the outlier worse with still no options because everything else is still either not as good or just pointless, which takes power from the player in a game where the point is Power Fantasy.

I'm sorry for this very late reply. Had a couple things going on. Though, due to this, I do believe I am prepared to challenge some of the posts above me. The issue I'm having is the fact that there are some builds that exist in this game that have become clunky or may not work well enough to warrant them existing due to Nourish being reduced in effectiveness. The builds you listed are all builds that don't NEED Nourish to function. Rather, it's an extra layer of either comfort or power that is optional, yet not mandatory. It's fair to say that Nourish losing power won't affect them specifically much. Titania, for example, doesn't need all of that energy from Equilibrium, nor does she need Efficency, as full Power Strength + Nourish will cover all of that alone. The shards you're using can also be changed to Power Strength, if you're comfortable using an Energy consumable at the beginning of a mission. Another example, Garuda, has Nourish to amplify her Talons, but makes little use of the Energy she gets from her 3, especially considering the Molt Reconstruct Augment recovers her health on Ability use, and depending on what you're going for, you could make use of other Helminths for an, albeit small, variety of options. Mesa...is just strong right now, generally. Nourish adds to that and helps cover Viral. The Energy she gets + her already decent damage is just more power on top of her current power, which is nice. If I was to provide an example, it would be Styanax, as I mentioned above. Currently, his best build is utilizing Intrepid Stand, by damaging enemies with his 4. This Augment was made while taking into consideration the current state of the game at the time, and with Nourish in mind. His 3, for me, regenerates 12-13 or so Energy/s due to my Power Strength being well over 400 with everything combined (Mods, Madurai, Molt Augmented). before the change to Noruish, at peak I was generating, I believe, around 60-65 Energy/s, which was enough for me to use Final Stand at will, and to also have enough Energy to reapply Nourish and Rally Point. Now, after the changes to Nourish, I cannot sustain Final Stand anymore unless I pick up Energy Orbs, and there have been times where I've not had the energy to even reapply both buffs. It makes him feel very clunky due to this, because his Augment is centered entirely around using Final Stand as often as possible. Another facet to this change is his damage being lowered, as Nourish Elemental Damage actually increases Final Stand's damage, and it being reduced in effectiveness is a major his to Styanax's damage while utilizing his Augment. I only pointed him out specifically since he's the first one to come to mind. It's very likely there are other builds that relied on the large amount of Energy income to function well. This is something that is in NO POSSIBLE WAY comparable. Nourish gives a lot of bonuses, yes, but Mesmer Skin basically allows you to ignore virtually every possible detrimental interaction. Nourish enables. Enables more power, builds and interactions. Mesmer Skin is a crutch, It removes danger, fear and, honestly, a lot of fun from the game when I don't even have to pay attention to anything. I would agree with you if this was a different game, but this is Warframe, a game about Power Fantasy that has been powercrept to disgusting levels over the years. As an example, I'll mention a different game with different mechanics: World of Warcraft. Let's say, you was playing a Mistweaver, but dealing damage to heal instead of casting spells (Fistweaving, in this case). In Patch 10.1.0, this way of playing was overtuned to insane levels, due to a new talent the class has received. Because of this, it needed to be lowered in comparison to others, because with two buttons, you could heal 10 players to full every 3 seconds. Now, in this case, your quoted statement makes complete sense, and I fully agree with you there, as making every Healer able to do the same, or even halfway similar would cause every match to never end because nobody would ever die, and it would honestly just not be fun. However, in Warframe, the dynamic and philosophy changes completely. Part of the reason is due to the fact that there are many, MANY potential Helminths that can receive changes, either in the form of an Augment or changing the skill provided by the Subsumed Warframe. Instead of making Nourish weaker, it would be much more feasable to take the time to address this issue by applying the aformentioned additions/changes. Another reason would be because there is no real competition in this game, and it's basically a Power Fantasy game with a very, very long timesink investment to get to that power. In my eyes, taking away some of that power because everyone uses it is a terribly poor decision, especially when the other powers that are underutilized are so because they don't offer anything either engaging or potent. I did mention it earlier: It pushes me away from the game when I put in all of that effort and energy into fine-tuning a build specifically for a purpose to only have it reduced in effectiveness or just clunky to play.

It wasn't put on every Warframe, nor was it the best for every Warframe. Some builds don't work anymore because of the nerf, or are clunky as all hell. "I'm happy your builds got nerfed because it was messing with MY build!"

I am absolutely with you, and disagree with the others here. They tried to fix an issue they created with Helminth, and tried to take the easy way out by hitting something everyone has been using for what, 2 years now, or so? Nourish should not have been hit. The solution is look at everything else that isn't used (Ash Shuriken? Why??) and either swap what those Frames' give as their Helminth or increase their value by way of Augment mods. Not only that, it did the OPPOSITE of what they wanted, which was to promote Build Diversity. Now, some builds using Nourish don't work properly, or are just incredibly clunky. It honestly makes me not want to play when I invested so much into my Warframe, Helminth, Mods and Sentinel for this one build, that I genuinely enjoy, to work and one of those aspects (In this case, the core aspect) is weakened, making that time, energy and money I spent mean less or nothing at all.

Nourish should never have been touched, and Eclipse should've just been changed to a toggle. They're trying to fix a problem THEY created by making things people like weaker, in the hopes that we will gravitate to something else to favor, when in reality all they did was remove builds that needed these things in their prior state to function and STILL haven't accomplished anything. And then you have people who say that it "Wasn't that bad of a change" because it doesn't affect them. You want more diversity with Helminths? Look at the ones NOBODY uses (Ash - Shuriken? Why is that his Subsume??) and either swap them with other skills from their kit OR make them worth using. Trying to take the easy way out only causes problems. Hell, Styanax 4 feels 30% weaker after the damage nerf from Nourish, and his energy regen feels much less impactful. He can't even use 4 consistently without getting orbs off the ground now, nevermind using 2 for Strip or even reapplying the buffs, and this is with well over 380% Power Strength.

So uh, Steel Path Netracell? So we can use a fraction of the powercreep you've given us over the years?