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LSG501

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    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by LSG501

     

    17 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

    snip

    So let me get this straight... if I ignore all of the superfluous comments about progress and accomplishment (which I disagree with completely by the way) which are not the main topic of the thread, that entire post basically boils down to AoE abilities killing low level enemies far too easily.... well you're in luck we're getting a 'hard mode'...

     

    14 minutes ago, Xaero said:

    snip

    Ah so no real worthwhile comments again...

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

    Counterpoint, if somebody wants to play the game like 3 other people aren't there, why are they playing on public instead of solo?

    True, they could, but not everyone has an issue with an AoE frame being in the team (which is constantly pointed out a major part of warframe) and also if you join a public group you should not expect players to play as you want them to.

    Funny how you don't comment on my bit about asking DE for the ability to block frames you don't like from being in your squad instead of just removing AoE...., It would then allow others to continue enjoying AoE frames/abilities if they wish but nope... a reasonable solution for both sides of the argument is just totally ignored..

     

    3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

    Reb's interview with GameSpot last year indicates that the number of people who leave the game because it's unbalanced and too easy was large enough for DE to want to do something about it. So on this case it's not that we're organized, but rather that DE themselves actually saw a link between player attrition and challenge somewhere on their metrics, on their spreadsheets. Data neither you or I have access to, but that DE acknowledged exists.

    The difference here between the two groups is that one side remains hopeful for improvements that DE themselves seem to want to make while the other side seems to be keeping DE hostage as implied by Pablo, as they can't do what they want with their own game.

    I'm not saying the game doesn't need enemies 'equal' to the warframe and their weapons, the star map is far too weak in general and that's just down to general power creep, but I don't agree with removing or restricting AoE abilities to do it. 

    In all honesty, it's pretty comical to be calling for 'nerfs' on stuff when we haven't seen the outcome of the higher enemies were getting....

     

    You say DE can do what they want with their game, I'd argue that DE have learnt from the railjack release that they can't just go ignoring players and doing as they want.  They need to be aware of what the majority of players in the game want if they want to continue (in essence) being paid.... warframe is not the only fish in the ocean these days. 

     

     

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by LSG501

    4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

    It doesn't matter if I don't use them as a nuke, but have one walk into a mission of 3 non-nuke Warframes and they kill everything nearly as fast as they spawn while spamming dance emotes.

    1 person shouldn't be able to turn the game off for 4 other players, it would be like trying to play a game of Left 4 Dead while one person is hacking a /killall command every time anything spawns.

    Then don't play public or start pushing DE to add on an option where you can opt out of being paired with (and restricted from using it yourself) certain frames... there are other ways to stop YOU being affected by things that other people enjoy using....

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by LSG501

    37 minutes ago, Aldain said:

    To note, several people here don't want the AoE of say Equinox removed.

    They want the ability to IGNORE WALLS removed so you can't just brainlessly turn it on, hit one enemy a few times and then turn it off and kill everything in the next room.

    And I and many others don't want it removing....  I don't see it as an issue, even more so if you don't use them as a nuke, and personally I'm more concerned about the resulting 'reworks' than I am the issue that people are complaining over...

    Perfect example is the old WoF got nerfed because of it's use on low levels (wasn't an issue imo) but in the rework process (both times) the use as a low damage cc build using firequake was totally ignored. 

    You say about ignoring walls... well essentially that is what happened with the WoF rework, we gained a line of sight ability that targets x enemies and hits them if it sees them (assuming no LoS issues).  Now it might have changed a little on exterminate but on defence etc it's literally the same just with more button presses... you sit in one spot, you press 4, you wait for the enemy to be hit, rinse, repeat and arguably it scales higher now due to the fire status rework.  Mind you I can literally count the number of times I've seen an ember since the rework on one hand.... players have just changed to the next fastest option for low level missions. 

     

    Also it might be worth remembering that Saryn was reworked by Pablo and is one of the frames people are now complaining over....and was also praised as being a really good rework at release.

    12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

    This is true only if you happen to believe that vocal players are higher in numbers than those who go with the flow and don't mind changes that much. Historically, that is not true.

    It's the reason why they are called a vocal minority. They make a lot of noise. One of them makes more noise than 500 people. But he's still one. 

    DE just don't want to face that. Even if it's a minority, mainly because they tend to be not only loud, but organized. They know where to put the pressure. They know how to make it hurt. They know how push it to the front of Reddit. And at the end it becomes a PR nightmare.

    And you could say that about those asking for the changes to AoE too.. THEY could be the vocal minority.... as you say the could just more organised (all in one spot) and vocal about it than those that don't see a reason for things to be changed.

    Why would those happy with the current abilities have a need to complain about them when they are after all happy with them as they are. 

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Pretty often. They stand out the most so brought up frequently.

    So...  it's still just 2 things.... the frequency is just people starting their own threads instead of using existing ones

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Do you remember what this whole thread is about? DE stated it's a problem. And it's pretty obvious, you just refuse to admit it.

    Actually if you read the OP you will see that Pablo even says what I've been saying.... they can't go massively changing abilities because players will complain... in other words players like the abilities as they are...

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Yeah, but I don't see anyone demanding to remove the abilities. Stop making stuff up, it doesn't magically become an argument.

    But you are... by removing AoE you are essentially removing that ability and turning it into something else, often a far worse option.

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Imagine a game where you need to press one button on your keyboard to instantly complete the mission. Would anyone call it fast-paced? Being fast-paced doesn't mean having short missions.

    You mean like the games which are designed where you need to press a button to 'win'... there's an entire category of games which is literally press a button or combination of buttons at the right time to progress to the next level....

    And being fast paced doesn't mean we need to be stuck in for excessive amounts of time either...

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    You did see enemies dying around you, but you didn't see them dying couple walls away from you. If there was LoS restriction, your impression wouldn't have suffered anyways.

    You made the assumption that the AoE abilties were damage ones.... I never said that...  and actually in this case it would have suffered because the mission would have taken longer... speed nova.

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    So, in your opinion it's good to have a crutch for the sake of keeping another crutch. Right? By the way, what do you mean by unnecessary grind? I can only think of Hema clan research, why DE are so reluctant to change the requirements is beyond me. But it's just a single gun.

    Actually I have the hema research done in my clan, we worked on that as a clan and I don't see that as an issue personally.  Unnecessary grind is anything stuck with low drop chances specifically designed to make you go back, to inflate player numbers, or more often as not to get you to buy it with plat... the reason to go back shouldn't be about the grind, it should be about enjoyable and replayable content, something which DE struggle with in all honesty.

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Yeah, they totally haven't doubled Intrinsics gain. And they haven't tripled Titanium and Asterite drops.

    Um you do know that railjack wasn't (some might even say it still isn't) popular.....  and you do know that outside of buying the skins or trading for avionics the only things that require plat in railjack is the slots (that we're not told about until we hit unlisted limit) to allow us to claim more weapons/components, I wonder what you need to make them, oh right... titanium and asterite.  You say it was to benefit players, to a point it has, but there's also an underlying aspect where DE will see plat sales if more items can be built easier.

     

    3 hours ago, Xaero said:

    You should re-read OP's post, specifically Pablo's quotes.

    Actually I think you should because I clearly read it better than you did....

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

    You'd be surprised at how many people would agree with that viewpoint, though. Almost anyone who has played other horde shooters or tactical shooters knows pretty well how damaging unrestricted and plentiful AoEs can be to game design. And the sheer amount of concern for difficulty that floods the forums, which DE themselves acknowledge, seems a pretty good indicator that people enjoy challenge.

    And you're just making assumptions that align with the viewpoint you're trying to put across...  unless there are hard figures given you can make assumptions either way.  The fact that Pablo said in the interview that the players would be annoyed with any changes to abilities say which side likely has the higher number.

     

    3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

    And nobody is saying to remove abilities and the uniqueness they provide, just to keep them in line so that this game doesn't reduce itself to simple grinding because all the fun is sapped out by brainless skills that play the game for you. Warframe is indeed weak as a game when you remove abilities, but it is equally weak if combat provides no sense of accomplishment and the whole gameplay loop boils down to "grind for the next shiny thing".

    Except that is essentially what is being done when you remove the AoE of certain abilities... you take away the uniqueness of those frames and you basically end up with the exact same abilities but with a different coat of paint on them.   This game is and never was designed to be accomplishment based... seriously why people think that about warframe I have no idea, it's literally a game where the entire 'achievements' rely on rng (luck) and grind.... and that is on purpose as this is to push players to buying things with plat.

     

    3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

     

    Because then you are having fun chasing an illusion and hating the process, which is necessarily riddled with RNG and poor reward structure just for the staggering speed at which we can complete encounters. AoE is fine as a concept and an integral part of every shooter, however it should be something you work for if it's paired with high damage. Good examples of this in warframe do exist: Gauss's 3 combo with redline shreds enemies, but requires preparation (Redline up and running, and a double cast); Garuda has great AoE potential, which requires set up (Her talons ability + a decently charged dread mirror). AoE is fun, but that fun is watered down if it's given out like candy and not treated as a reward for mindful ability usage and coordination. Let's get back to grinding for a moment. If some of the outliers are toned down, and missions take a while longer to complete, DE can then put meaningful rewards for our time investment, instead of the usual fodder that pads the RNG of good drops. And on top of that you'd get a better combat experience, since you'd have to think and would feel the thrill of risking loss if you are not careful. It's a win for everyone.

    Not everyone wants to spend a long time in missions.  Take railjack for example, one of the main reasons I (and many of my clan etc) didn't do railjack was that it was just taking too long to do a mission, the reduction in enemy levels meant the missions go faster so more are playing it....  Look at the amount of people that leave at round 5 in defence, the lack of real interest in survival etc... the large proportion of players prefer bitesize, faster missions and if you start making things take longer it will turn players off the game.... and it's not like warframe doesn't have competition these days. 

    I also find it comical that you're complaining about AoE abilities and then basically praise 2 frames that are arguably at the upper echelon of the issue that you're supposedly complaining about....

    You also keep making the assumption that removing AoE is going to make a better combat experience, not sure how you can do that when you're basically downgrading the experience that people are coming to the game for... even more so when you consider the reworks we get when AoE has been removed in the past.  Look at the melee rework... can you honestly say that has made combat 'better'.... I wouldn't say it has, in all honesty it has major annoyances with some weapons now, a perfect example is jumping past the enemy with heavy swords when you do one of the combo moves...

    You've also made the assumption DE would adjust drop rates to compensate... they wouldn't imo because their entire reason for the grind is to increase plat sales and if something takes longer after a rework then they benefit by more people saying 'sod it, I'll just buy it'.... perfect example is railjack, we got the revisions yet there are now avionics which basically don't drop and you can only get via plat. 

    And you might have noticed from liches...players don't enjoy 'losing', especially if it's for no real reason....

    And I'd bet you do this as well... Look at how most of us end up doing sortie spies solo because we don't want to run the risk of an idiot failing it and aborting so we end up failing etc.  I know from a personal perspective that it annoys the hell out of me when it fails due to something stupid (usually outside of my control too) etc because we lose everything, that isn't a thrill of risking loss, that's annoyance because I've wasted my time... I don't like wasting my time in ANYTHING. 

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Xaero said:

    I always see "nerf Saryn", "nerf Bramma" posts.

    So pretty rare then... considering that is just 2 things out of what 350....

    7 hours ago, Xaero said:

    I'm talking about overall gameplay. Unrestricted AoE is a part of it, and this part in its current state harms the other parts of gameplay.

    Again this is only in YOUR opinion.... other's won't agree with that viewpoint.

    7 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Was it the reason for you personally? I've yet to see anyone who started playing this game because at some point he or she would be able to stay in one place and occasionally press "delete enemies" button. Warframe is advertised as fast-paced action game, not as semi-afk clicker.

    Actually the abilities were a big draw for me personally, it is one of the main things that makes warframe unique in the 'fast paced action game' genre (it's not really an action game imo but still) as it was for many others that I know in game, as I've said warframe is incredibly weak as a game when you remove the abilities.... also the irony there with you bringing up that warframe is fast paced when you were earlier saying 'what's the rush'....

    Also I remember these AoE effects being one of the first positive memories I have in this game as a newbie who didn't have access to them... it gave me something to aim for as it was impressive to see at that stage of my time in warframe... now as a long term player I know about clans, in game friends and recruit chat so if I want a group of like minded players I can get them, I know that I can build frames in multiple ways which don't all rely on AoE aspect of the frames... but I also know that AoE effects can greatly speed up the unnecessary grind that is imposed on us at times so I would never want them nerfed because there is literally no way DE is going to reduce the grind needed for things, it would hit their plat sales.

     

    So far I've seen nothing other than it being your opinion (or more accurately your dislike for it) as a reason to nerf AoE... so there is literally no reason to carry on going any further with this back and forth.

     

    No fissure, no Orb Mother [ Glassmaker ]

    in General

    Posted · Edited by LSG501

    I've still got loads of thermia left over from the very first time the fractures appeared...  so this issue only really affects 'newbies' who haven't done it before and as said it will come around again later.

    Personally I'm skipping it as I just don't have a reason to do it other than the ephemera and well I'm not farming it for them....plus it's far too long winded (although 10x syndicate is far worse) for just 7k standing imo.

    Not to mention, last time I did it albeit a fair while ago now), it was still bugging out at the doors...

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Xaero said:

    Nah, people hate it. If they were happy with it, it wouldn't be frequently brought up on forums.

    Actually outside of the imo unwarranted complaints over the old ember wof it's pretty rare that AoE attacks are brought up in the grand scheme of things.  Also as mentioned numerous times on the same forum, is a very small number of the overall player base and in all honesty probably the least listened to, compared with reddit and twitter for example, when it comes to the game.

    2 hours ago, Xaero said:

    That's fine. Complaints about AoE being almighty will be replaced with complaints about AoE not being almighty. But gameplay wins. And these complaints will be temporary. Because no one initially expects AoE stuff to ignore walls and obstacles. It's common logic.

    You keep saying gameplay while totally ignoring that using the current AoE IS gameplay as well... and may well be the reason that that particular player is even playing the game, so while you say complaints will be temporary you're also ignoring the fact that a change might actually mean players just stop playing instead of complaining... and don't assume removing a major part of the 'power fantasy' from the game would bring in more players because warframe as a 'point, shoot and melee combat game' isn't that great on it's own. 

    2 hours ago, Xaero said:

    I don't see a problem. Are we in a hurry?

    Generally speaking... yes, most players don't want to spend any longer on a mission than necessary when the primary purpose of the mission is to grind as much of whatever as needed as quickly as possible.... and things like defence take far longer than necessary due to the speed at which the enemies travel to the target so speeding them up (along with the small damage buff) with a speed nova to allow for faster access to the rewards, such as the relics we want/need, is a common thing in my experience. 

    2 hours ago, Xaero said:

    No need to. All AoE stuff should be treated the same way. That includes enemy auras and attacks too btw.

    Apart from the ancient toxic scream/aura being a bit overpowered I don't have any real issue with the enemy aura's as they are if I'm being honest so saying they'll be included doesn't really change much imo. 

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    25 minutes ago, Xaero said:

    Not everyone will agree, but none of them will give any valid arguments. I can understand why some people would be against that though. If you play a game with cheats for too long it will be very difficult to play it fair later.

    I can give a valid reason why to not remove it.... people enjoy using them, that's a valid reason whether you agree or not... you can't term an ability natively in the game as a cheat, that was a conscious decision by DE to add these types of abilities and there will be a LOT of complaints, assuming they just don't leave, if they're changed to the way you're suggesting.

    There's also the fact that nerfing aoe abilities to be blocked by walls would also affect frames like nova and nyx (amongst others)... you know the frames that allow us to speed up defence or slow down interception etc.  And you can't just go about selectively allowing some while not allowing others.

    • Like 1

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by LSG501

    1 hour ago, Xaero said:

    I've been playing Excalibur all these years and I don't recall having any issues with LoS-dependant Radial Blind.

    Clearly you haven't been taking that much notice... but then excalibur is the poster child for warframe so...

    Quote

    Why should there be a system that is basically going to replace it? The change doesn't benefit you personally, but it benefits the gameplay overall, because it tones down the most efficient/efortless way of dealing with enemies and makes active playstyle preferable.

    There is also no reason why abilities that magically appear from nowhere should ignore everything. Anyone who has some experience playing action games would expect cover having at least some meaning. When a boss in some game launches a map-wide AoE attack, you naturally take cover behind walls or obstacles.

    Yet I disagree with all that...

    Ultimately I don't want a game that is little better than any other point and shoot game (which in most cases are far better than warframe at that aspect of the game).  Toning abilities down to suit YOUR preferences would ruin the essence of what brought many of us into the game, the abilities are basically the only unique part of warframe.

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    44 minutes ago, Xaero said:

    Would disallowing AoE stuff to go through walls and obstacles take anything away from this power fantasy? I don't think so. It would greatly benefit the gameplay though.

    In all honesty, DE's line of sight is pretty shoddy with obstacles that basically shouldn't affect anything blocking stuff... and to be fair this also affects melee hence why we don't always connect with visible targets, so linking it to abilities would need improvements. 

    So if they were to remove abilities going through walls etc then they also need to improve the system that is basically going to replace it and until that is done there would be no benefit in removing AoE through walls for me personally...

    Having said all that there is no reason why abilities that magically appear out of the sky from nowhere shouldn't be hitting on the other side of a wall, same thing goes for 'sonic' abilities (which would naturally go through walls in the real world) and even to a point temperature based abilities could go through walls too. 

    Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    IMO, warframe isn't a game where you come to use your brain, it falls in what I call 'mindless fun' category of games.

    While I wouldn't say no to some slightly better AI (especially on spectres and pets etc), trying to turn warframe into a challenge, which in most cases will just find a new meta and be cheesed anyway, just isn't really right for this game. 

    If you want a challenge in a game there are other options out there, let warframe be the 'power fantasy' it's designed around.

    • Like 1

    I miss Scarlet spear

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

    Wich is what bothers me , why ? if we think about the priews events they had twice less content and way much less rewards yet community enjoyed those more.

    Can't say I overly enjoyed the last few events either in all honesty...but then at the same time I can't really think of what they both were, think one was the water gun thing (didn't like that at all). 

    • Like 1

    I miss Scarlet spear

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    6 minutes ago, Faultron said:

    Cant understand why we cant have real content for this game, instead we are forced to play with these missions over and over.

    You know scarlet spear was literally 2 maps doing the same thing over and over again right...

    • Like 14

    After update it feels like every 2nd avionic dropped is Form Up

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, HoustonDragon said:

    Still haven’t seen Tether after farming up to rank 9 on all the Intrinsics. I’m just writing it off until the RNG gods decide differently.

     

    Also, had an excellent crew the other day in Ruse War Field when I forgot to swap off Public. Kudos 🙂

    Had quite a few tether drop (even enough to give a few to clan mates and still think I have a spare left).  Issue for me is void hole and countermeasures, having just managed to get a fiery phoenix a bit earlier.  RNG is a royal pain at times like this because like you I'm pretty high up on the ranks (10,9,8,10) and it makes me wish that we could just grab mods from a store after earning enough standing for it...

    After update it feels like every 2nd avionic dropped is Form Up

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Yeah the drop rates on avionics need a serious look at imo... it really does feel like they've taken the grind out of intrinsics and stuck it into the avionics instead.... 

    Some mods are dropping at a far higher rate than they need to while other mods are literally not dropping....

    Not to mention anything around 1% drop chance, such as connic nozzle (really...) void hole, tether (which I've had multiple times) etc is just stupidly low in the first place and no idea why hyperstrike is 2% drop chance (at best) while form up is 48% (explains the stupidly high drop rate)... I'd class hyperstrike as a 'needed' mod, especially as you go up the levels as it increases turret damage, while form up is imo a troll mod in the wrong hands.

    I'm lucky I've got most of the 'basics' from before the rework but damn I'd hate to be a newbie trying to get some of the 'basic' mods you need to progress through the maps...

    Railjack boost nerf

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

    Yeah boost is consumed much too quickly now. Over short distances my Railjack is certainly faster than before, but over the really long distances it feels slower, because you can’t get those 4km drift launches like before. I know there’s that new avionic that increases speed when not near enemies, but I don’t have it yet so idk if it fixes the issue or not.

    I'm pretty sure I do have the mod and as much as I'd like to use it I honestly can't see a slot I'd swap out to use it... essentially it's a band aid mod which shouldn't be needed.

    Railjack boost nerf

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I'd be 'happier' if they removed the excessively high drain boosting, it has such a a low duration it's hardly worth imo.  I'd also like it to 'automatically turn off' when it's empty, like well everything else in the game which turns off when empty, so I don't need to keep switching it on and off all the time due to the short duration...

    • Like 12
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