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SortaRandom

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Posts posted by SortaRandom


  1. advice_didyouknow_en.png

     

    WALL ATTACKS (melee 1.0) STILL EXIST.

    They have survived two full-scale melee reworks over the course of >6 years, with virtually no changes from their initial state. They provide no mobility, are horrifically slow, and briefly freeze the pacing of the gameplay. They have been this way since I first used them in 2013.

     

    I don't recall the last time I activated a wall attack on purpose. I don't ever recall activating a wall attack and then thinking "hey, that was useful". I don't think other players do, either.
    DE, if you're reading this... please remove wall attacks from the game.

    • Like 1

  2. 9 hours ago, R.E.B_99 said:

    since bloodrush now only scales with unmodded CC reverting the changes to it would make it usable again .

    YEP!
    The source of Maiming Strike's overpoweredness has always been the fact that Blood Rush multiplied it. With that calculation obliterated (at last), Maiming Strike in its pre-nerf state would've been perfectly viable without being overpowered.

    DE has repeatedly said that they don't like MS because it promotes a boring playstyle... but surely they could've just fixed the "boringness" of the playstyle instead of effectively deleting the mod? For example,

    • BEFORE:
      Maiming Strike adds a flat +90% CC (additive) to slide attacks.
    • AFTER:
      Maiming Strike adds a flat +90% CC (additive) to slide attacks, air attacks, slam attacks, wall attacks, and heavy attacks. (Basically, anything other than conventional combos.)
    • Upvote 1

  3. It's frustrating that it's been well over half a year since DE introduced this system, but they still haven't properly separated autoblocking from aimgliding.

    The weird part is, when U26.0 dropped, I could swear there were moments where autoblocking in midair didn't force an aimglide (as it should be). Haven't seen that happen in a while, though.

    • Like 2

  4. On 2019-11-29 at 12:21 AM, Scar.brother.help.me said:

    And by the way, forward+E works  even worse when you opt out "align attacks with camera" and wish to spin around and hit in every direction.

    It makes me really happy to see another player point this out. Finding a fellow player who plays with "align attacks to camera" disabled feels like finding a damn unicorn.

    This issue could be hugely alleviated by just letting "forward" include A,S,D in addition to W when this option is disabled (since those will all be "forward" relative to your character), but I guess there are so few of us that DE doesn't consider it worth the effort.


  5. The double-proc thing is always nice for Condition Overload builds. I mean, less nice now, but still nice.
    Also, the CC effect itself can actually be a nice bonus against tankier enemies. It's never been useless, regardless of how often people parrot the "death is the best CC!!!1" thing.

     

    I do wish that they'd revert the stealth nerf, though. As in, the literal "melee stealth bonuses are disabled against Blast-proc'd enemies" nerf, which was coincidentally never documented in patch notes.

    ... And the fact that enemies are immune to Blast's knockdown effect if they already have a Blast icon active. You can continuously land a million Blast procs over the course of ten minutes and the enemy will only fall down from the very first one. (Been a problem since, like, late 2017. Still waiting for this to be fixed, DE.)

    • Like 2

  6. 26 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

    Imagine a target flying above you, it passes overhead, and you track then chase. Old control allow you to follow it, new controls require pivoting on 2 axis THEN make a 180 as it goes over.

    This new system is not an "actual flight system", it's running around in the air.

    I mean, you're not wrong, but I don't see this as a problem. Every Archwing map in the game (including space, and especially in open world) has a clearly defined up/down orientation, and all enemies spawn / move / are oriented accordingly. It's basically just Warframe's usual level design wearing a space flight costume. So, it should use a movement system that's well-suited to such a design-- i.e. running and jumping, but wearing a space flight costume.

    Warframe is very fast-paced and has always been characterized by sudden, sharp changes in direction and speed. Archwing is no different, which makes the slow gracefulness of "rolling" and "banked turns" and all that jazz VERY unsuitable.
    Unless literally every aspect of Archwing is fundamentally rebuilt from the ground-up to accommodate a flight-sim-like playstyle (including map, mission, and enemy design), giving it flight-sim-like controls would never work out well.

    • Like 3

  7. 5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

    Im 99% sure control space isnt the dodge roll/backflip on any keybind (mostly because DE has a bloodcurse against PC usage by not letting people use modifiers without overly fiddly macro setups), thus why these parts

    dont make sense to me up+down/space+ctrl should result in the same as forward+back/w+s does in not moving you or the last input/keydown overwriting the first one till keyup.

    I feel like you're misunderstanding. I've only been making suggestions for afterburner-- NOT the dodge/backflip/blink/etc functionality. Those should remain bound to the Dodge key (tapping "Shift" by default), as they always have been.

    Right now, pressing down+up (ctrl+space) while on foot produces a Bullet Jump.
    I would like pressing down+up (ctrl+space) while in AW to produce an Afterburner.


  8. 6 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

    We agree on the rest but im not sure how/why the AW dodge should be up+down (feels perfect on being the same key that normal WF dodge is)

    Hm? The dodge binding is exactly the same, though?

    EDIT: To clarify, I want up+down to activate Afterburner. Just like how up+down activates Bullet Jump on foot.
    Dodging (i.e. tapping the "dodge" button, where AW's forward dodge has been replaced with a Blink) works wonderfully already, and should stay the same as it is right now.


  9. 20 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

    Wouldn't it be too easy to accidentally hit things if you're not looking where you're going? It's not an issue with warframes, but for AW it might be. Still, I'd like to have an option for that as there's no fast strafing currently. Jump+Crouch for afterburner interferes with your proposal to move quickly in every ditection. When I press Ctrl+Space, should it 'sprint' up or activate afterburner? Though I would agree with slowing down overall movement but making sprinting and/or afterburner faster.

    I mean, AWs punish collisions a bit more than warframes do, but otherwise they'd be practically identical. The control scheme I'm suggesting is literally identical to the other 99% of the game (aside from the additions of "sprint up" and "sprint down").

    - If you activate press Ctrl+Space, you launch yourself in the direction of the camera. Just like bullet jumping. (It's sprinting that shouldn't be camera-locked.)
    - If you want to "sprint up", you simply hold Space (up) while sprinting. Just like you'd hold WASD while sprinting to "sprint fwd/back/left/right".
    - If you instinctively try to bullet jump upwards by looking up and hitting Ctrl+Space, then you'll Afterburn upwards which accomplishes the exact same thing.

     

    18 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

    Camera for steering is perfect, issue is that the boost (shift) defaults forward movement instead of wherever you are strafing.

    That's what I mean, yeah. Because it defaults to forward movement, you're forced to swing the camera around if you want to move in any other direction. Which is just silly.


  10. I feel like I'm in the minority in that I'm... not satisfied with the changes.
    Like, yeah, the removal of rolling (like, the 6DOF flight sim crap) is a HUGE improvement from before, and I love that up/down is now consistently relative to the direction of the camera. But "sprinting" in AW feels like total poop, because:

    • you can only go forward. Even if you hold S and roll backwards, you're still moving forward.
    • Not inputting a direction = moving forward. Forward input = afterburner. (Seriously, does this not feel weird to anyone else?)
    • Afterburner is barely faster than just sprinting. Probably because it's bound to a key that we already hold instinctively.

    Basically, if you want to maneuver quickly, then you've got to use your camera for steering. In a shooting game. This is bad.
    Don't even get me started about those poor folks who play with sprint toggle.

     

    WHAT I'D PREFER:

    • "Sprinting" lets you move in any direction you please. Just like sprinting in the rest of the game, but this time including up/down.
    • "Afterburner" is activated when Jump+Crouch is held. Just like Bullet Jumping in the rest of the game.
    • Afterburner speed is increased slightly.

    That's it. It would be consistent with the base game's controls, and it would prevent the silly issues of "sprint only works in one direction and forces me to choose between moving and aiming".

    • Applause 3
    • Upvote 1

  11. 13 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

    Not on regular attacks does there seem to be a difference: ~13 damage at 0x, ~13 damage at 12x.

     

    5 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

    As far as I understand, this impacts only skills that dealt extra damage from combo multiplier, like Khora whip. For exalted weapons, it works as other melee weapons. Regular attacks deal the same damage regardless of the combo multiplier. Heavy attacks deal more damage per the combo multiplier.

    Cheers, thanks!

    Yeah, I think that enabling acolyte mods on Exalteds should be the way to go at this point. Or just give them the "reduced scaling" like landslide/whipclaw/etc, so that Excal/Wukong/etc players don't feel pressured to use Blood Rush if they don't want to.


  12. 8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    Do you think those builds leapt, fully formed, into the arms of the player?

    They literally did, yeah. Up till the Melee 3.0 changes, BloodRush/MaimingStrike/ConditionOverload had been virtually unchanged since the exact instant they were released. Atterax builds were stronger than even the best Zaws and had been around for years prior.

    This is getting super nitpicky and off topic, though, so i'll try to keep the rest of this short.

    8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    -snip-

    You've changed your main argument from "It would be gamebreakingly overpowered!" to "it wouldn't be gamebreakingly overpowered, BUT it would be a small first step towards creating something gamebreakingly overpowered!". What I'm gleaning from this is that the actual overpowered part... does not currently exist. i.e. We can cross that bridge when we get to it.

    The slippery slope argument does not warrant (once again) a core melee functionality being completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons. 

     

    8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    Changing the base functionality to heavy attacks only consuming 60 combo would give most heavy attack setups reliable, low-cost access to massive burst damage that can oneshot a vast majority of mobs. Now add Zenurik on top of that for a cost of 24 combo per heavy attack. That's one level, a very, very quick and easy thing to restore. Blood Rush builds would have access to everything, just as they did before.

    Increase the cost, then, no? That 60 isn't set in stone. (Also, Zenurik should be balanced around the core mechanic and not the other way around.)

    Overall, you still seem to be deadset on viewing the heavy-attack-on-most-builds situation as a very binary "It HAS to be horrifically detrimental to the point of unusability, otherwise it would define the meta and have literally no weaknesses!". I feel like a broken record at this point, but I gotta emphasize yet again that an "in-between" solution exists.

    8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    Is there any reason why, if you are so concerned about not being able to use heavy attacks and light attacks in the same build, you would find mods intended for such a build pathway unacceptable?

    In the first place, I don't want an overall power level increase to scaling builds. I want occasional heavy attacks become a viable option, not THE viable option. Improving heavy attack efficiency would accomplish this, if it didn't cost a mod slot (i.e. a huge chunk of my build's overall power).
    Alas, heavy attack efficiency is so bad at base that trying to improve it means gimping my own build for no tangible benefit.

     

    EDIT: I completely failed at keeping this short lol
    In any case, I've made my point. Much of this post was just me repeating things I've already said, so at this point I'm not sure there's much reason for me to post further.

    Aside from our stubbornness about each of our respective points, I'm glad we could have a civil discussion about the topic! 👍

    • Like 1

  13. 14 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

    And more voice types, while you're at it...

    Literally just a pitch slider would already be fantastic. It would also require minimal effort on DE's part, considering that it's already in place for Kuva Liches.

    • Like 2
    • Upvote 1

  14. On 2019-11-20 at 6:30 AM, Nezha_Rose said:

    After the iron staff nerf I started using Range Wukong of all things, his augment for his 1 can give me a 40m stomp that costs 25 energy. 

    "But Rhino (and or other CC frame) can also do that." Yes. But I dont always have a Rhino buddy, especially when I solo. 

    I do suggest you to try this out tho, its not bad at all.

    YEEEESSS! Someone else who has witnessed the glory of Range Wukong!

    Bonus: Try activating Celestial Stomp, but popping into Cloudwalker before the stasis activates. Stealth damage bonus for days boiiii

     

    OT:

    The wiki states that Exalted melee damage still scales with the combo counter, just with much slower buildup than before.
    ZGOkvMM.png
    I haven't seen anyone on the forums mention this at all (including in this thread), but can anyone confirm whether this is actually true?

    (I'm asking as an avid Excalibur+Wukong player who literally never presses 4.)


  15. On 2019-11-20 at 9:14 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

    Very good point. Thank you. 

    I wanna know, how would you fix this?

    I'm responding to an old post, but I'd change the "lifted" status by forcing Stealth Damage Bonuses (+700% damage, stacking additively with Crit Damage) on affected enemies. Bonus points if the same applied to Impact procs. Give these otherwise-useless CC effects an actual damage incentive. 
    This would also be a huge leap towards solving the issues of:

    • Lifted Status being useless
    • Impact procs being useless
    • Impact-focused melees being less desirable
    • Pure-status (i.e. critless) melees being useless

    in one fell swoop.

     

    Mechanically, I honestly haven't had any problems with the lifting. I see people comparing it to Jat Kittag, but the ragdolling has always been fairly controlled for me, and the enemy has never drifted backwards so quickly that it flew out of my reach.
    I do use Primed Reach on all of my builds, though (along with stances that don't root the player to one spot), so take this with a grain of salt.

    • Like 2
    • Haha 1

  16. 3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    How many overpowered builds were there in 2.0 again? Two? Three? Blood Rush with high range, Memeing Strike, Condition overload...

    If something's Overpowered, then it's overpowered. That has knock-on effects.

    What do those have to do with heavy attack efficiency? Do you really think that making heavy attacks not-completely-detrimental will be even remotely close to the overpoweredness of BR+MS or BR+CO?

    3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    I'm more concerned about the Blood Rush scaling builds. Frankly, the main thing limiting those setups right now is their inability to make full use of heavy attacks, giving them high sustained damage, but not having a good burst damage option without losing their main source of damage, just as Heavy attack builds lack sustained damage. Giving them access to a cheaper heavy attack - especially since an option that takes absolutely no mod capacity already does exist in the form of Zenurik which would absolutely stack - could negate that entirely. And, that would indirectly affect the heavy spam builds because their main niche is now taken by another build that also fills another.

    Considering that the hypothetical monster would render all of the good 3.0 has done moot? Yes, especially since it would be caused by base functionality, which is much harder to precision-nerf than mods.

    It is worth the cost, especially when adding in a mod dedicated for this would fix it with far fewer potential repercussions, whilst also enabling a potential third viable build route to enter the picture.

    There are a crapton of things limiting a standard combo-scaling build. You make it sound like adding a bit of heavy efficiency will remove the only barrier between a BloodRush Dakra Prime and literal godhood or something.
    In reality, adding reliable burst damage to your combo-scaling builds can already be simulated by holding a shotgun in the other hand. Yeah, it removes the only intrinsic "weakness" of such a build, but... it's not exactly gamebreaking, is it? (I realize that the shotgun example is kinda cheating since it requires a dedicated gun slot, but you get the idea.)

    If improved heavy attack efficiency causes the burst damage from heavy attacks to happen too often for heavy-attack builds to look enticing, then the devs can tune this by simply increasing the base combo cost a bit more. DE is fully capable of making micro-adjustments; it's not as if heavy attack viability is on some binary scale from "literally suicidal" to "game-deletingly-overpowered" or something.

     

    Look, your entire argument is based on the idea that improved base-heavy-attack-efficiency will unleash some freakish leviathan monstrosity of an overpowered build into the game... yet, aside from that tidbit above, you haven't once explained what such a build might actually be.

    Would you mind elaborating on this? As in, giving a realistic example of a genuinely gamebreaking, fun-deleting build that would be possible with a bit more heavy attack efficiency, but isn't possible right now?

    • Like 1

  17. 2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    If a property - in this case, light attacks benefiting from combo multiplier - has to be modded into a weapon then by definition it is not the default state. The default state is the base state. That much can still be built to provide - not adding in additional functionality whilst still making it stronger.

    I get what you mean, but semantics. Potato potahto and all that.
    As long as you understand my point that "using heavy attacks = shooting yourself in the foot for the VAST MAJORITY of melee weapons, and this is bad", that's all that matters.

     

    2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    I do see the problem, but we also need to bear in mind the potential outcome. Give this community an inch and they will take the golden mile. Offer base functionality to let the two sides interact even slightly, and somebody's going to figure something out sooner or later and we're back to square one.

    I feel like a decent solution might be a mod designed for this 'jack of all trades' playstyle. It'd probably have to make scaling mods incompatible with one another (like true steel/sacrificial steel), to be safe but since the mods aren't typically used together anyway it shouldn't be too bad. I see this being a Nightmare style mod.

    Battle Frenzy: +30% crit chance, stacks with combo multiplier. +60% combo efficiency. I'm not so good with numbers so balancing is probably a bit off.

    If that's incompatible with Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds, that gives a mod that's a fair bit weaker than Blood Rush, but offers the benefit of being able to use heavy attacks.

    I feel like you aren't putting this issue into perspective.

    A core gameplay mechanic is completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons, and you're defending this state because... one or two new overpowered weapon builds might appear?

    Look, the solution to this whole issue is literally to make heavy attacks consume fewer hits at base. This makes heavy attacks usable (read: not spammable, not gamebreakingly overpowered; just usable) on scaling builds, and that's it. This buff would have virtually no effect on heavy-spam builds, because getting any use out of it would require both Combo Duration and Attack Speed, and melee weapons have a finite number of mod slots.

    If the worst case scenario DOES happen, and some ungodly overpowered weapon+build+warframe+arcane combo does emerge, then... it can be addressed and nerfed separately.
    Keeping this hypothetical monster in its unborn state is NOT worth the cost of-- repeating for emphasis-- letting a core gameplay mechanic be completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons.

    • Like 2

  18. 8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    In the default state, they are both usable. In fact , they lead into each other nicely. If you don't build for either blood rush or for heavy attacks, then that system works entirely as intended. Combo has no effect on regular attack damage - I have tested this - so unless you explicitly mod for it, you have no reason to not use combo to hit big heavy attacks. That means the normal, intended gameplay loop of 'use light attacks to build up to heavy attacks is still very much alive and kicking. You can still build for it.

    Is it as powerful as min-maxing to either end of the spectrum? No, but that's what the term min-maxing means. Minimising one element to maximise another. Allowing the maxed power without an associated minimisation was the major problem 2.0 had and was a huge part of why melee 3.0 was necessary in the first place, leading to things like Spin-to-win and other grossly unbalanced setups.

    When I said "default state", I meant a typical build with Blood Rush on it. It's not default in the sense of "no mods whatsoever", but I meant it as a standard, run-of-the-mill build that you'd see frequently on the majority of weapons. As opposed to the default state that you're describing (i.e. defined by a lack of scaling or heavy attack mods), which nobody will realistically be using once they actually... you know... obtain mods.
    Saying "you can still build for it" is a bit disingenuous. Yes, it can technically be done, but you know as well as I do that it's laughably nonviable on the vast majority of melee weapons. You don't end up with this so-called "default state" by not minmaxing-- you end up in this state if you go out of your way to build your weapon poorly.

    Also, in this thread about scaling-versus-heavy builds, spin2win (a subset of scaling builds, which we can all agree was a bad part of Melee 2.0) isn't really relevant.

     

    8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    The playstyle is still probably too weak, and work still does need to be done, but setting it up that melee can benefit from both sides of the min-max pie is not the right move. As-is, Heavy Attacks are still limited by their weaker light attacks lowering their crowd clearing potential, and Scaling Builds by their lower burst damage against larger targets.

    Okay, I feel like a misunderstanding has occurred.
    We're not asking for the ability to take full advantage of scaling builds and heavy attack builds (i.e. the opposite ends of the specialization spectrum) at the same time. We're asking for the ability to use occasional (non-minmaxed) heavy attacks on scaling builds without instantly destroying the scaling part.

    For comparison's sake-- even the most specialized heavy-attack builds can still use light attacks if the player so pleases. While it obviously won't be optimal for damage (save for extremely weak enemies), you aren't penalized for doing it, and it can even be useful against very-bulky enemies.
    Scaling builds, on the other hand? A single heavy attack will instantly break the backbone of your entire build.

    You see the problem here, yeah?

    • Like 2

  19. 6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

    I disagree, primarily because of what 0% base efficiency does.

    In effect, it creates a divide between heavy attacks and scaling mods. The two are incompatible. Whilst this might seem bad, consider - that means that Heavy attacks can be allowed to be really strong without too much worry that in the process, DE will wind up buffing Scaling Builds back to 2.0 levels (which defeats much of the purpose of 3.0). Likewise, Scaling can be tuned however DE wants whilst also letting them play with Heavy attacks. Consider any time DE have tried to introduce a mod that was clearly designed to allow underperforming weapons to flourish, but it wound up just improving the meta instead - Hunter Munitions was probably intended for this, the idea being that it's not a very powerful mod but lets there be a niche alongside pets. But we all know where that went.

    The efficiency thing lets DE balance two separate things and modding options in the same system. That's very valuable.

    That's an interesting way of looking at it. Honestly, though, I'm not finding myself in agreement.

    Having "scaling builds" and "heavy attack builds" so distinctly separate from each other means that you'll only ever be spamming one type of attack and never touching the other. This is bad for the simple reason that spamming a single thing is boring.
    For those who've played the game in its earlier phases, this situation should look familiar-- it was a major problem that Melee 1.0 had, and the monotony of spamming one attack type over and over was a huge part of why Melee 2.0 was necessary in the first place.

    It's been, like, six years and we're barely past square one in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it's great that players have the option of specializing into a heavy-spam build or a scaling build if they so please-- but basic attacks and Heavy attacks should BOTH BE USABLE IN THE DEFAULT STATE. The devs intended for heavy attacks to be occasionally woven in between regular strikes, but the current state of the game does not reflect this.

    This isn't even that difficult to solve either! Instead of wiping the entire combo counter, heavy attacks should decrease your combo by 60 at base (i.e. -3 combo tiers). Enough combo is lost that heavy-spam is discouraged (and that dedicated heavy-spam builds won't get much use out of this buff), yet it's not going to completely destroy your Blood Rush build if you throw one out every now and then.
    I'm sure this isn't perfect, but it's definitely a place to start.

    • Like 1
    • Applause 3

  20. Hm... I'm not sure that giving operators more lines (in their current style) would be great. It's disliked by numerous players because the lines rarely fit the context of the situation and don't match what the player's thinking at all.

    On the other hand, I think there's a lot of potential to be had in using Operators for "voice commands". So we can hit a button, and then your Operator pops up on the side and says "Need healing!" or something.
    Team Fortress 2 executes this flawlessly, and games like Overwatch use a more simplified version of this that would fit very well into Warframe.

    • Like 2
    • Upvote 1

  21. On 2019-11-14 at 4:23 AM, Xaero said:

    I like the idea of ephemeras with sound, no need to remove it, all we need is a toggle.

    Toggles are always a nice option. That, or adding a "Player Ephemera" slider in the Audio tab, so the ephemera's sfx can be noticeable without being obtrusive.

    (Bonus points if it only mutes our own ephemera, without affecting other players'. It's only obtrusive because it's an endless buzzing noise right in front of the camera.)


  22. So, let me start off by saying that this ephemera is bloody fantastic, and when this issue is fixed, I will be equipping it on literally everything ever.

    HOWEVER, my one gripe with this ephemera is that it produces a wide "glow" (dynamic lighting) effect that harshly flickers on and off, illuminating the character and the surroundings, as the electricity arcs. This is already straining to look at on its own, and it produces a very nasty "rippling" effect (from the top of the monitor to the bottom) wherever screen tearing is an issue.

    Now, Warframe is a game filled with bright flashing lights, but the sheer harshness of the rapid glow flickering (and the fact that it's attached to your character, i.e. it's really close to the camera and it doesn't go away) makes me concerned that this effect is more seizure-inducing than the rest of them. I don't have epilepsy, but I'm noticing much more eye strain than usual just by equipping this ephemera and walking around the orbiter.

     

    SOLUTION:
    Turn the dynamic lighting glow into a "constant" effect-- i.e. let it always be on, so there's no flickering. Alternatively, instead of flickering between "bright" and "off", let it flicker between "bright" and "slightly less bright".
    (The sparking effect itself is fine!)

    • Like 1

  23. 20 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

     

    Stance & Weapon Changes: 

    • Crimson Dervish:
      • Fixed Crimson Dervish not having it’s sliding heavy attack hooked up.

    Crimson Dervish's what now

    EDIT: So it looks like "sliding heavy attacks" are just the second swing in the "heavy attack combos". That's way less exciting than I thought it was going to be.


  24. 1 hour ago, tigerbeatsdragon said:

    4. This is not something that pertains to this update, but it's been bothering me for years. Shortly before POE and focus 2.0 came out, stealth was hit with the nerf bat in an undocumented change. Prior to the nerf, you could maintain the stealth damage multiplier on a single target as long as you did not physically touch them with your warframe. After the nerf, only the first hit gets the stealth multiplier no matter what, and you have to wait 5 or so seconds for the multiplier to return before you get another single stealth multiplied hit. What bothered me the most was that NOBODY talked about this. I scoured youtube and these forums the day it was nerfed and I only found 2 posts mentioning it before the threads were closed by mods. Interestingly, the behavior of blinds did not change. Blinds give the stealth multiplier as long as the enemy remains blinded. While people used to think of Loki as one of the best frames in the game, after the gass fixes and this nerf he essentially faded into obscurity. Not to mention that Naramon was really broken back then, essentially invalidating Loki and I think thats why the nerf happened. Despite this, I initially thought it was a bug and decided to wait before posting anything. I've waited 2 years. I think it's time stealth be returned to its former glory.

     

    Yeah, WF's playerbase has always paid little to no attention to melee stealth attacks, despite them being as powerful as the most popular crit builds for as long as they were.

    Note the past tense, by the way-- DE has slowly but surely stealth-nerfed the crap out of stealth attacks to the point that it's difficult to rely on them, let alone build around them as your primary source of damage. Stealth mechanics have always been inconsistent between major updates, and over the past year, these changes (undocumented, of course) have been almost always for the worse.

    I am 100% in agreement that stealth melee needs to be made more viable. Maybe not by straight-up allowing multiple consecutive stealth hits from invisible frames (cue Loki + Telos Boltace flashbacks), but... consistency has been a worsening issue for a long time now, and even the best stealth frames are currently kinda crappy at what they do.
    Examples of unwelcome undocumented changes (some bugs, some not) that I'd like DE to revert:

    • Blinded enemies become completely immune to stealth damage bonuses while affected by a Blast proc.
    • Blinded enemies will often stop receiving stealth damage when knocked down via some other method (e.g. Slash Dash, Void Blast), but... inconsistently.
    • Enemies are completely unable to receive stealth damage bonuses within 5 seconds of spawning. (This destroys the viability of stealth-melee builds in modes like ESO.)
    • Non-Blinded enemies are unable to receive multiple consecutive stealth multipliers when knocked down or ragdolled. (This destroys any ability for Invisible frames to land more than a single stealth hit. Formerly, you were able to knock down enemies with a silenced Blast proc and then enjoy consecutive stealth hits before they stood back up. This was the only way that Loki/Ash/Octavia were able to compete with the likes of Excalibur in terms of stealth damage.) EDIT: This seems to have been reverted since U26.0, but who knows how long it survives before it's removed again.

    It's a shame that stealth melee is in the dismal state that it's in, because aside from "special" weapons like Redeemer, stealth damage bonuses have been basically the only way to make pure-Status melee builds viable. With the recent Condition Overload nerf (i.e. with status builds losing one of the only damage multipliers they had), this has become even worse.

     

    Stealth attacks need a rework. Players should be able to activate them more consistently, without having to be shoehorned into a "blinding/sleeping" (Excal, Inaros, Ivara, etc) or "invisible" (Loki, Ash, Octavia, also Ivara, etc) frame.

    If I were somehow in charge of a rework, here are some of the mechanical changes I'd make:

    • Hitting an enemy from behind will always produce a stealth bonus, regardless of the awareness state of the enemy. Smaller weapons (daggers, dual daggers, fists, etc) will have a "backstab cone" of nearly 180 degrees (similar to Spy in Team Fortress 2), whereas larger weapons (polearms, whips, heavy blades, etc) will have a much narrower cone.
      Each enemy's "backstab cone" will become wider when they're not specifically targeting the player.
    • When hitting / bumping into an unaware enemy (e.g. from being undetected, or while Invisible), enemies will only become "aware" (i.e. stop taking stealth damage) after ~1.5 seconds from the first contact. Reduce the time taken for this to "reset" from 3 seconds (current) to 2 seconds.
    • Enemies will always receive stealth bonuses while affected by "Lifted" status.
    • Enemies will always receive stealth bonuses while affected by an Impact proc.
    • Expand the variety of abilities that force enemies to become unaware; e.g. Bastille, Spellbind, Stomp, etc; such that Blind/Dessicate/SleepArrow/Rest aren't the only options in the game.
    • Very minor, but add a melee equivalent of Hush/Suppress. (Melee weapons DO make noise when colliding with terrain, and the only current way to nullify that is by playing Banshee or Hushed Loki.)

     

    EDIT:
    Sorry for kinda dumping all that into your thread!
    TL;DR: Melee stealth damage has become crappy and inconsistent, even for the frames best suited for it. It needs a rework.

    • Haha 1
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