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Posts posted by xTerrain

  1. 4 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

    A "moving" and "active" game world is a worthy goal, sure, but little squares on a map that reward mundane stuff and disappear after two hours tops is cheap filler at best. Ask DE to try something else while improving Nightwave instead.

    You might be right.  If they had replaced the system with something that filled a similar role, I probably wouldn't be on the forums at all.  But Nightwave doesn't work for that.  Perhaps a system wherein each node (excluding those of early planets (Earth-Mercury, so new players can be guaranteed the experience of most mission types before really setting off into the more difficult content), Assasinations, Dark Sectors and certain other exceptions) has a pool of up to three mission types that are randomly picked from each time the squad enters it would make the standard missions less sterile, but...I don't know; you wanted an alternative suggestion, see how that suits you.  Reintegrating Alerts is a simpler solution for the current situation while the system is in flux.

    5 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

    Since when has "unnecessary" ever stopped anyone? You're saying that players can choose one or the other, which sounds nice in theory. However, this game is about loot accumulation - the REAL soul of Warframe. People will choose both, "unnecessary" or not. People will subject themselves back into the RNG and snooze-and-lose in order to acquire as much loot as possible - as would be their right to, as it is what the game is all about. At this point, the core objective of Nightwave, eliminating the RNG and snooze-and-lose, would be subverted. This is why they cannot co-exist.

    Of course they would do both.  That goes without saying, honestly.  But because it's unnecessary, 'snooze and lose' complaints would become puerile at best.  Missing out on one particular Alert would be trivial because you can buy the same item from Nightwave with ease after the fact, or could go do a fissure if it was a forma, etc.  There are more consistent ways to get all of the Alert rewards now, so no one would be so reliant upon that RNG system that it would be any real problem.  If someone is so obsessed with getting all of the loot that they can't bear missing their chance at one drop of it, that's not the game's fault.  The two could coexist, because no one is reliant upon one or the other to get the loot they so crave.  'Snooze and lose' would be a much smaller problem.  A minor annoyance, and nothing more.

    Yes, people could choose.  There would be very few who would not gravitate to Nightwave for its consistency, and when a relevant Alert pops up, they can use that as a small bonus.  People would use both because there would be a use for both.  Alerts would be what they always should have been: small, unimportant to miss; a quick mission to do when you're bored.  Not 'the one and only' way to get particular loot, or to do anything.

    "Soul of Warframe" was a bit of an overstatement on the part of @Luciole77, I agree.  But that doesn't mean that Alerts were worthless to the game, nor that they needed to be removed completely.

    5 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

    I'm talking about the rewards pools, you're talking about the rewards delivery. "Purpose" is the end point, you're talking about the mechanism. As long as they reward the same things, they will always conflict.

    Only part of each of their rewards pools are the same.  Nightwave has its own cosmetics, and some higher-end rewards such as the Umbra Forma and Arcane Energize, which were outside the scope of Alerts.  Meanwhile, Alerts had credits, Endo, and other minor resources that Nightwave didn't feel the need to bring in.  By your theory, everything else Alerts had to offer already conflicted with the base game, because it could be gathered from its appropriate missions.  You never had to rely on Alerts for Nano Spores or Polymer Bundles, but if you needed some of them, and an Alert popped up for them, great.  A nice little bonus, and potentially a break from wherever you were to farm them.  By this mechanic, they had value, even while being somewhat redundant and unneeded.  Nightwave simply extended it to the larger and more important rewards.

    5 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

    Right, random cycles of existing missions marked by little squares on a map is so "immersive" and "active." No, RNG in it itself is not a bad thing - all looter shooters are built on it. It's the Alerts' implementation to create the snooze-and-lose mechanism that is objectively bad. Nightwave has its own expiry mechanism, certainly, but you have 3 days to complete a daily, an entire week to complete the weeklies, and you get Creds to buy the items at any time during the 10-week season. This is a far, far more forgiving system for delivering such mundane items than Alerts that expire in two hours tops.

    Yes.  It was subtle.  Worldbuilding mechanics often are.  With the proper mindset, that little square was an indicator that the Corpus are doing something unusual there, and we should go to stop it.  Things were happening.  Little ones in addition to what large-scale warfare and wandering dimensional instabilities.  I would say that increases immersion, but I understand that not everyone will appreciate its ability to.

    You are correct, Nightwave is more forgiving.  It's more consistent, and easier to get what you want out of.  Which, again, means that continued Alerts would not be relied upon for those same rewards.  Lacking that reliance, snooze-and-lose feelings would be greatly reduced, to the extent that Nightwave would still have accomplished its goal, without having to remove a longstanding system that some players enjoyed.

    • Like 1
  2. 56 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

    And no, Nightwave and Alerts cannot co-exist - not unless they are used for completely different purposes. Nightwave's stated core objective is to eliminate the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose. Bringing back the old Alerts system as it was would automatically nullify this objective. There will inevitable be a temptation to double-dip, which means back to being subject to the RNG and snooze-and-lose. This is objectively a step backwards.

    But they are used for completely different purposes.  Nightwave exists to artificially give players another goal to work towards, while Alerts existed as an arbitrary set of missions that players could run without needing a distinct goal.  Both systems are meant to keep players involved even when they don't have anything specific to be doing, but their methods of doing so are entirely opposite, and reach for completely different sets of players.

    I also have to disagree with you on Alerts' nullification of Nightwave's core objective.  Nightwave as an addition would have eliminated the players' reliance on the RNG-based alerts, which was the core problem people had with the system.  'Double-dipping' would be completely unnecessary, and so wouldn't result in nearly the magnitude of 'snooze-and-lose' feeling in the playerbase.  At that point, if someone feels slighted by missing a particular Alert, it's on their own head, not that of the game and its systems.  They can still go buy the same item from Nightwave, or find it on the appropriate planet/mission, and have effectively missed nothing.

    Random number generation is not inherently bad, and eliminating it is not the unilateral 'right direction' for the game to be going in.  It was that very randomness that made Alerts both a unique system to Warframe, and a great enhancement to immersion for those that enjoy feeling like the game exists in a moving and active world.  That's where Alerts shone.  The rewards were always secondary, and they're the only part of the system that Nightwave is anywhere near a valid replacement for.

    • Like 1
  3. Nightwave is irrelevant to this thread.  The OP isn't asking for it to be removed, only for alerts to return.  And since the two systems serve completely different functions, it's a fair request.  The only similarity between them is that they reward alt helmets, Aura Mods and Nitain Extract (arguably the least important offerings of Nightwave for veterans).  As such, Nightwave is a decent enough system to give more consistent access to those resources, which Alerts couldn't be counted on to provide at all times.

    However, Alerts were not only about those rewards:

     - They were quick missions that one could hop in and just play the game, without having to scour the starchart for one particular mission that appealed to them.  That's invaluable for players trying to  use Warframe as a quick cure for boredom between productive activities in real life, without wanting to put a lot of time into each session.

     - They made the world feel alive and mobile.  There were always several things going on across the starchart, even beyond the big and obvious wars between the factions that are Invasions.  They weren't specific, but when has the Lotus ever told us why we were doing any particular mission (Much less why we suddenly have to kill everyone because of what she found in their computers) outside of maybe certain story Quests (in which she still usually tried to be fairly enigmatic)?  That we weren't told why the missions were special never meant that they couldn't have been, or that they broke the lore.

     - They offered quick access to decent amounts of other resources, such as Polymer Bundle and Oxium.  This could serve to break up tedious grinding sessions if you happened to need more of one of these resources, and an Alert popped up.  They operated as small bonuses to what you might have been seeking.  The same could extend back to the Cred shop from Nightwave.  When a Nitain pops up, that's one less unit you have to wait on the next drop of Creds for.  It's not something you can rely on, but it's a nice bonus to your other activities.

    The only real problem Alerts had was that they were necessary to progress, even though they couldn't be relied upon to pop up with the right item when someone was online.  That's what gave birth to the 'pay-to-sleep' mindset regarding them.  They should never have been particularly important or enforced.  That's what Nightwave would have fixed if the two were run together.  With all Alert rewards consistently available from other sources, players wouldn't have felt obligated to play the Alerts, much less slighted whenever the RNG didn't go their way for a while.  That's the ideal scenario here.  Removing Alerts was never necessary, and should never have happened.

    • Like 2
  4. I first noticed this with my K-Drive.  I've reached Bondi rank 1 several times on the Vallis, but I've just done a Uranus submersible mission, which distinctly told me my Itzal was rank 29 in its midst.  When it came to the completion summary, neither that Archwing, nor any of its weapons were listed, and upon investigation, Itzal has regressed back to rank 28.

  5. 42 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

    Hour long survivals, profit taker, those are elite challenges. And they're elite challenges that are easier for groups. And for groups that preform via recruiting /assembling a team in advance so everyone can be on the same page. (Because of the whole these people may not synergise properly/know what's expected of them.) It's reasonable to put the condition there rather than "kill 150 enemies using radiation with a friend". 

    Hell, last night I did the eximus stronghold Sortie and got a total of 4 kills towards my total, because there was a banshee nuking everything. And I was better off than the other 2 guys in the squad. 

    Let the newbs have the easier tasks with fewer conditions. They need the standing.

    This is true, and these are challenges that people might be more likely to bring friends along in the first place, but that ultimately makes the 'with a friend/clanmate' part of the challenge even less meaningful.  Would these examples have been any less 'elite' without it?  Apparently so, given the other example of a 'with friends' challenge: doing a sortie, of which we've also seen a variant without the friend/clanmate condition, and it was not an Elite Act, which implies that going with a friend, even when it's not necessary, somehow makes you a better and more capable player.  You've said that there's nothing wrong with these challenges, but the added friend/clanmate condition is just unneeded.  It adds no challenge to the mission in question, and only serves to keep people from completing the challenge, for no reason beyond the wording of the challenge.

    Additionally, you've misunderstood me.  I didn't suggest adding the condition to pre-existing dailies/weeklies, such as the 'kill with radiation' Act, rather adding a different daily/weekly that is simply 'complete a mission with a friend or clanmate.'  Not 'a spy mission,' not 'using radiation damage,' just clear a mission.  Just the one condition, well in line with other daily/weekly challenges.  This would incentivize the socialization that the devs apparently want, without completely throwing less sociable players, or those with less-than-active friend under the bus.  I would find this a reasonable and much better-balanced compromise for all involved.

  6. On 2019-03-26 at 3:22 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:


    The problem with this stance is that it defeats the purpose of both the challenge in question, and the friends list itself.  If this is the playerbase's reaction to these challenges, then there is NO REASON that they shouldn't just be 'complete the challenge in a group.'  It accomplishes the same task, without having to be loopholed around by temporary false-friends.  That's even less effort from the players, for the exact same result, and using infrastructure that's already in the game (namely public matchmaking), and without making a mockery of the friends list.

    But there's also the question of why these 'with friends' acts are Elite weeklies, since a player that could do the same content solo, or even with a group of random people they don't know, and have no synergy with would be a more 'elite' player than one who requires a known teammate that they can and have worked together with, by definition.  'With a friend/clanmate' missions should not be in the Elite acts.  Just the normal daily/weekly ones.  And to fit with those, they shouldn't be as specific as they have been.  "Complete a mission with a friend or clanmate" would be an appropriate daily, and 3 missions could be a valid weekly.  This would make them much less valuable, and so easier to see missing, even among completionist players, and would make them more open to newer players actually looking to make friends through the game.


    On 2019-03-25 at 10:35 PM, Shaderox said:

    While its nice that alerts as a whole are gone, it would be nice to have some random mission appear now and then that's completely optional and just award some standing or extra wolf creds (or later equivalent), just like how prisoners shows up now and then in regular missions.

    I'm sorry, but...how is it nice that Alerts are gone?  As of now, with Nightwave giving what were Alert-exlusive rewards, continued Alerts would have been completely optional small bonuses that might give Wolf Cred items (as opposed to the Creds themselves, but I can see a Cred drop added to their tables, to give a small bonus and make synergy with the Nightwave system).  The only reason I've seen that people didn't like them was that they were 'pay to sleep,' which wouldn't be any problem now that there are alternative methods to get all their rewards, rather than just most.  I'm not sure why you're claiming that their absence is a good thing, especially since you've gone on to try and re-implement a similar system.  I don't mean to be rude, but...is there some reason for this?

    • Like 1
  7. 46 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:


    That's inconclusive.  It was their stated intent to replace Alerts with Nightwave, not a response to the feedback they've received after implementing that decision.  The closest thing to such a response I've seen is the name change on the feedback thread (Nightwave General Feedback - Challenges and Acts  --> Nightwave and Alerts Removal Feedback).  I would like to think that them acknowledging the two as separate issues is hope for the return of Alerts, but nothing definitive has come up on the forums.

    On the other hand, that thread does include the nearest thing to a reason for the Alerts' removal that I've seen, but their mention of the 'fun factor,' which was a gross miscalculation.  I'm with Skunky Monk here.  I'd like to at least hear a definitive answer.

  8. 15 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

    Find Nightwave grind to be a problem? How about missing alerts? You miss an alert and that reward is out of rotation for a literal two week period. That was a massive flaw. Pay to sleep was the entire definition of alerts, not to mention how far said rewards were spread out across the solar system for seemingly no rhyme or reason. Nightwave and Alerts both interrupt what a player would normally be doing anyways, so I wouldn't say they broke up the tedium as much as they cut down my grind sessions for whatever my current goal is.

    In addition, the only reason to ever, ever play alerts was the unique rewards. Want a Kubrow egg? Alert. Argon? Alert. Kavat? Alert. Pretty much a band aid for either A. Stupid Kubrow egg mechanics. B. Argon drop rates. C. Stupidly low cat codes. Not to mention the actual unique rewards. Who in their right mind would run alerts for credits and endo? Or how about nano spores and control modules? Alerts were mainly filler trash punctuated by occasional useful things.

    That's exactly my point, though.  The pay-to-sleep aspects of the Alert system would have been severely reduced by the induction of Nightwave, because there are now alternative methods to get all of their rewards.  If you need Argon, you go to the Void and do a loot run.  If you need a Kubrow Egg, it's the same thing, but on Earth.  And now if you need Nitain Extract, you can do some Nightwave to get them.  There's no longer anything that you absolutely MUST wait on a particular alert for.  Which would make them a nice bonus if one comes up at the right time, as opposed to something you feel like you absolutely cannot miss no matter what.  If that means that you specifically won't play them, so be it.  That view is not held by all players.  I myself find "grind sessions" tedious and dull, so cutting down on those and breaking the tedium in the game are effectively one and the same thing.  I kid find some Alerts worthwhile to me.

    I would also mention that Nighwave does not provide an easier solution to...any of your examples.  Argon Crystals are now only available through the Void.  Kubrow Eggs, only from Kubrow dens on Earth, and Kavats only through scanning on the Derelict.  I understand that Kavat codes are tedious and obnoxious this way, so I'll admit that it's one thing you might be tempted to wait out an Alert for.  You might have a point against me there.  Perhaps Kavat Codes (and Kubrow Eggs, since I'd rather see the two paired in it for symmetry) could be added to Nightwave's Cred shop rotation to appease you and your peers.  I'd be fine with that. 

    The others really only took me up to three looting runs on their respective tilesets to get what I needed, which I find wholly acceptable, as I enjoy a slow, meandering loot run from time to time (in solo, naturally).  You seem not to, and I'm sure you're not alone.  But you still had options besides waiting for the right alert to show up, and if it did show up for you, great.  You didn't have to do as much of the thing you didn't like.  Which made Alerts potentially valuable to you.  But I would argue that waiting around for the Alert that would give it to you was not necessary.

    As to your last questions, someone who is bored might feel like running a quick mission just for kicks, and the list of Alerts makes a nice little set of suggestions as to what to do, without addressing the whole of the solar map to find one mission they feel like doing.  Which is invaluable when you don't have a specific goal to run straight for.  I won't say that credit, etc. Alerts were good.  "Filler trash" is probably a good term for them, but I don't think that it invalidates the whole system.  At worst, it necessitates adjustment to the involved probabilities.

  9. 1 hour ago, Morelle said:

    It definitely could use some tweaking. But as for "coexisting" - I believe they had a reason to just wipe them off. Compatibility issues, internal resources, etc.


    I've missed that part. Please be so kind to send me at least a list of technical specifications for DE servers, proving that they possess enough capacity to process Alerts on top of all the upcoming content. Also a research that shows absence of any conflict, code wise, between the old system an any of the new ones.

    I missed a part too: do you have a source for that, or is it just an assumption?  If that's their reason, then sure, but you're the first I've heard of any server troubles related to this, and I have difficulty imagining that the list of alerts was anywhere near that sort of drain.  And even then, it sounds like a server upgrade is in order, before they start removing enjoyable gameplay elements from the game.

    As to code conflicts, how?  The two systems in question are build completely different from one another.  I'd doubt there any relation in the code, much less one that both interferes with their coexistence and can't be worked around by the programmers.  I don't see any reason to assume that this is an issue.

    1 hour ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

    Because the development team felt that the alert system was too antiquated and too flawed to properly bring back, and instead went forward with creating a new system designed around removing the flaws of the old one.

    Or in short: Because the two systems would be redundant, and increase player workload.

    They...really wouldn't be.  Heck, if anything they'd work wonders together because you could do half the Nighwave challenges IN Alert missions with no problems.  The only thing they share is rewards, and not even the big ones from Nightwave.  And that's not a problem.  it's a choice.  If you need Nitain or whatever, and the alert shows up, that's one less thing that you need to uncompromisingly focus on Nightwave for.  That's good.  It can serve to break the tedium of the typical grind.  That's been an important function of Alerts since their introduction.  Giving resources and even credits could keep players from JUST playing the one mission or planet for far longer than they'd enjoy it.

    The only "flaw" with the Alert system was that it couldn't be counted on to consistently supply the necessary materials that were next to exclusive to it.  Which would no longer be any problem with Nightwave beside it, being a consistent, grindier source for those same rewards, freeing up Alerts to get back to providing a potential break from the tedium that is grinding for resources for players with less-than infinite patience in doing the same exact mission over and over again.  Alerts should never have been unilaterally relied upon for any singular, unique reward, but they should have, and they should still, exist.

  10. What you're saying is true.  Nightwave brings in a lot of opportunity to get the rewards that people wanted out of Alerts.  And it does a good job of encouraging players to do things they wouldn't normally bother with.  It's a good concept, and will be a solid system moving forward.

    However, I disagree that it is a 'great replacement' because it does not replace alerts.  It replaces the bad aspects of alerts.  Namely, the reliance on an inconsistent system for needed resources.  Alerts should never have been necessary, and you should never have had to sit around praying that the one you wanted would show up.  But there were other aspects of alerts that were good:

     - They made the world of Warframe seem alive and mobile.  Like there was always something happening.  Not something of dire import, but something. 

     - They allowed for a break in the standard grind for other resources, like Oxium, Nano Spores, etc. by opening up random missions across other areas of the game away from the farm-level you'd likely been doing to death. 

     - They offered an easy way to jump into the game and experience the fun of it, without the need for a specific goal  to work toward. 

    Those were the main reason alerts existed.  Nitain and helmets were not their primary role.

    I've actually been really enjoying Nightwave thus far (though Nora only gets more annoying as time goes on), and bringing Nitain more readily to players in need of it is a good call.  But it does not necessitate Alerts being removed from the game.  Nightwave is, ultimately, another grind, which alerts should have been able to make lighter and more palatable.  If the two had worked together.

    • Like 2
  11. 5 hours ago, dpencil said:

    @Andvarja I appreciate your perspective. I certainly was not trying to insinuste that constructive criticism was unwarranted. I gave my own feedback and suggestions a few pages before. 

    The toxicity I am referring to is people calling Nightwave garbage, calling for Steve to be fired, and saying they are done with Warframe because of it. This is all massive overreaction and immense negativity for a system that has many very positive features. I played Elder Scrolls Online consistently for years and was very active on their forums. Those devs got raked over the coals a lot, and in many cases they deserved it. Coming to Warframe, I saw a community that stood behind the dev team and recognized their dedication and care for this game and this community. It's just been disappointing to see similar behavior showing up here.

    I'm sure there are people being rude to those who voice concerns about this or that aspect of the system as well, and that's also not good. We should all strive to be level-headed, civil, and thoughtful in our discussions. 

    I can't help but feel that you're referring to one of my prior posts, given that I did use the 'garbage' line.  I will take the opportunity to apologize for this.  I had just seen the hour-long survival challenges, and I was...overzealous against them.  It was less than called for.

    I still maintain that an hour is too long for a single session required for any sort of specific reward.  Especially if the challenge for it is going to be repeated regularly, which these Nightwave challenges are.  That's only going to burn out non-endurance running players.  Which does not mean less-elite players.  My complaint with these challenges has never been my ability to do them.  It has been my lack of desire to.  Long-term survival has always been part of the game, and there have always been people who do them.  I have never been one of them, but there's no doubt in my mind that I could do these challenges.  I simply have no desire to.  And I can't put my finger on any specific reward that would give me that desire.

    And yes, you can miss some missions, as everyone keeps saying, but there's no telling how many of these endurance challenges are going to show up.  It's been two endurance-running challenges so far, but how many will there be next week?  Or the next?  The more of them there are, the more necessary it becomes to do several of them to get to the end of the series.  That's what I dread with the current system.  And it's what's going to lead to burning out of myself and many others.  I mean this as no threat, as I do not want to lose my will to keep playing Warframe (it's a wonderful game), but I know it's going to happen if endurance running becomes a central aspect of how to progress.

    That's what I was trying to communicate.  I fully believe that Nightwave itself is a good concept, and it's already gotten myself, and surely many others to do things in-game that we'd been ignoring.  But it fails as a replacement for alerts.  Because it doesn't replace them.  It took them out, and expanded a totally different part of the game (the in-mission affinity challenges).  Whether or not alerts were typically played by veteran players, that is a reduction to the game.  That's my stance on things here.

  12. Alright, I've posted a few of my concerns on another thread.  Let me just attempt to reiterate here:

    Nightwave is an interesting concept.  I've seen similar daily challenge type systems work in several other games.  It's a viable addition to a game of this type.  However, it should be an addition.  not a replacement for the randomly generated missions that were Alerts.  This removal was unneeded, and ultimately was a bad decision.  Alerts were a great way to get on for quick, casual bouts when you didn't want to consign yourself to hours of gameplay, or deciding what aspect of gameplay you wanted.  You didn't need to decide on a specific goal to work towards, just get in and have some fun.  Without them, you need enter into the task of finding a mission with a clear picture of what you want to do, what faction you want to be fighting and what level and/or tileset you want to pursue the action in.  Which can be a chore when you're bored and just looking to entertain yourself with something.

    They also brought in other rewards that were not exclusive to them.  You could do an alert for 300 Oxium if you were needing the resource.  That's a decent amount of Oxium, and a break from tedious farming the same mission continuously and/or over and over.  This was an important aspect of Alerts, and it made the game liveable for middling players who aren't yet resigned to grinding the same thing for hours on end.  The problem wasn't the randomization of these missions and their rewards, that was a good system, and much more unique to Warframe than Nightwave's daily/weekly challenges are.  The problem was that there were some rewards unique and exclusive to these random missions.  With Nitain Extracts being next to exclusively from Alerts meant that they couldn't be consistently obtained without a frustrating amount of sitting on a the mobile app/a tracker-site/ etc.

    (On the other hand, I did actually like the idea of a Warframe that came through them.  It was hardly the only Warframe that isn't consistently available (e.g. Nyx from Phorid), but I'll also admit that I've never really cared for Vauban, so I may not be the best voice on this topic.  I digress)

    Giving consistent access to these rewards is a good thing to do, but I fail to see why that meant removing the previous system, which gave significantly more than just those rewards that are now more available in the cred exchange aspect of Nightwave that is now replacing it.  It also gave some feeling of self-motivation to the Tenno as a faction, since nearly all other objectives are at the behest of some other syndicate or group, including Nightwave with Nora's involvement in giving the objectives.  So in my preference, bringing Alerts back would not involve them with Nightwave at all.  It's not needed, and to be honest, I would not like to see Nora put into more of the game.  She is annoying enough already.

    I also have concerns with the 'with friends/clanmates' challenges.  I can appreciate the attempts at getting players to socialize, but it doesn't belong in elite challenges.  If it were a standard weekly of 'play 10 missions with a friend/clanmate' or a daily of 1-3, without any specific requirements as to what mission or what level of a mission, this would work much better.  You'd have newer players, who are not established in their clans or their ways, adding friends which could last their entire Warframe Career, or get involved in clans that might actually play together, rather than create their own new clan just to get themselves the Dojo labs, and their associated weapons.  Putting this requirement on an already-elite challenge, for a relatively large Nightwave reward, is just alienating players that would otherwise be all over the 'elite' label, by right of their soloist tendencies, not as opposed to them.

    You might also consider replacing it, or adding to it, an 'in a group' in general, as opposed to having specific relations with the people in said group.  Half or more of the non-elite challenges should be things that people are likely to do without paying attention to Nora's screen listing them, or else they're stealing gametime from the actual play, which is in no way what daily challenges are for.

    Finally, the long survival challenges.  I do find an hour of these too long.  Without refreshing the map, or changing location/tileset/enemy-type,an hour of survival is excruciating.  People run them.  People run significantly more than them, but they've historically done that to challenge themselves, not for the sake of an external reward.  Endurance running is a specific playstyle that isn't held to by everyone.  Putting an extreme challenge like that is forcing everyone to have that playstyle, which many find undesirable.  And very not worth the 5,000 standing you're giving for that sort of a challenge (sure, you can do other challenges during the mission, but you can ALSO do other challenges during other missionsAnd beyond that, you've currently had some long-survival alerts (e.g. the recent 'war with [faction]' weekends), which were only up to half that time, and didn't regularly repeat.  These now are weekly challenges.  Which means that they'll turn up regularly.  This will destroy people's desire to play the game after a few weeks, and you'll be left with only the fraction of current players that are endurance Runers.  Something like thirty minutes is far more fair as a compromise: it's short enough that non-endurance-specific players might be willing to do it 2-3 times a month, but is long enough that it does take some endurance.  And if it's not challenging enough for people, or in your eyes for the rewards being offered, put a dragon key requirement on it (a general one, not specifically Slumbering or anything; that way you can get teams with varied debuffs and teamwork becomes potentially more important).  That's always fun.

    Nightwave is potentially a good addition to the game.  It needs some tweaking on certain challenges, to make them more doable and worthwhile, given the rewards listed, but otherwise it could be good.  As an addition.  It should not be replacing alerts.  I say again, that's a bad move.

    So, massive post.  Thank you for the time it took you to read that.  I hope it helps

    • Like 1
  13. ...Not even an umbral forma is worth this kind of garbage...  There are people who might want or be willing to do an hour of survival.  It's not unheard of, but players do so for their own amusement.  Warframe has long been a game of freedom, in that you could play how you wanted.  Do what you wanted.  It has a lot of content to explore and do, and challenge, and push to the limits of, but with this sort of weekly challenge, you're demanding that we push the limit in a specific way beyond what most players probably consider fun, or even 'worth doing,' especially if it's a regular occurrence.  I've heard of people going for two hours or so even before Nightwave, but there has never been any reason to do so other than challenging oneself, and that was good.  The game itself gives the option of pushing the boundaries of its system into untold extremes, but at the end of the day, you could leave after five minutes.  Ten for an Alert.  It was recently lowered to five for invasions because players didn't want to be potentially stuck in the same mission for 30 minutes for similarly valued rewards.  And the special ones for community events (one of which is still going for the next 12 hours, indicating that this statement is indeed current) still only went for 30 minutes.  That's half the time for, currently ten special Void relics, and a double-resource weekend later.  Doubling that for a mere 5,000 Nightwave standing is ridiculous.  I'd compromise for 40 minutes, but that's as high as I'd go for this system, more than likely whatever rewards are offered.

    And let's not forget that these challenges are weekly.  If these are kept, we're going to end up with 60-minute survival missions as next-to-necessary every 2-3 weeks.  It's going to become the norm for 5-minute missions to last well over an hour.  In my estimation, that kind of soul-crushing tedium isn't going to be worth anything in this game.

    And then there's the 'with friends' challenge.  I don't really have a problem with this, as a concept.  It's quaint.  And I can definitely see it socializing new players, as they try and find someone to occasionally message for no real reason, and make a real-life friend online through the game.  But...thus far, it's only been attached to elite events.  And then the 'do one Sortie' mission isn't EVEN an elite challenge when put in without the friend requirements.  And sure, elite players may well have active clans, but the right answer for that is a CLAN-BASED variant of this for CLAN challenges.  That would be acceptable, and be FAR more appealing, I'd wager, for those with proud, active clans.  The challenge should be 'play [a or some number of] mission(s) with a friend or clanmate.'  Not a specific type of mission.  Not a high-end mission for large rewards.  Just a mission in general.  That would be fair, and far more likely to get people to actually make friends, rather than what's being encouraged now, which is "go out, add a friend, run the specific mission, and then delete them and never talk again."  That's not what the friends list is for.  That's what public games are for.  If you must keep with the 'elite' social challenges, have them use public matchmaking.  That's both more fair to people with small friend lists, and in line with what you're actually looking for.

    Again, the concept of daily/weekly challenges is a viable one.  And Nighwave seems like a good (Nora's very existence notwithstanding) and potentially-rewarding way to implement them.  I'll put forth again that this should be done alongside alerts, as opposed to in place of them, but the concept itself could be good.  If the challenges aren't egregious overestimations of what players are typically willing to do for the wholly-unworthy challenge reward.  I know the elite ones should be somewhat challenging, but hour-long survival, or arbitrarily requiring a friend in the group for one that was already reasonable does not fit that bill.

    • Like 1
  14. Nightwave is an interesting concept.  I'll give it that, but it feels like a reduction in the game.  I can understand trying to give more consistent access to valuable rewards, but the removal of Alerts was...just a bad idea.

    Firstly: the randomly-generated missions were not bad.  Or outdated.  Or in need of replacement. In certain temperament of boredom, I've been known to come on to Warframe without a clear goal or objective.  Just the desire to shoot the helmet off some fifty or so Corpus, or stab some Grineer; to play the game.  And without anything specific to do, the randomized list of alerts, different as it was every time you came back, it became a set of missions to arbitrarily do to just get yourself into the game, without having to look across the whole map, decide what mission-type you want to play, what faction you wanted to fight, and then scour some three planets to find a node that fit the bill.  The Alerts were a quick set of suggestions of what to play.  The rewards were almost unimportant, and they're the only part that Nightwave replaces.

    Secondly, there were other rewards from alerts, besides the rare ones that you've put under cred exchanges now.  Less important ones, by right of not being exclusive, but a decent quantity of general materials or credits were also there.  Speaking from my own experience from a while back, before I had nigh-endless stockpiles of next to everything, 300 Oxium was nothing to scoff at when it showed up.  These missions weren't JUST for the big rewards.  Most of the stuff on them wasn't exclusive, and it wasn't necessary for it to be important to someone who was trying to get a particular resource that showed up.  And honestly, the most exciting alerts that cropped up were always those with Forma Blueprints, which without Alerts, are now exclusively from void fissures, since they're not available via Nightwave.

    I understand the need to get more consistent access to the rewards.  But I don't think the randomization was the problem with Alerts.  The problem was that these random missions had exclusive rewards.  Rewards that couldn't be acquired in more consistent ways, which led many players who didn't spend all their time on the mobile app, or some tracker website, staring at the alerts list waiting for the right one, to consistently miss their desired item.  And with the new Nightwave system, there can still be a large gap of time when you can't get any creds toward the thing you want.  If you're rank six, and have spent all your creds, it's going to take you nearly two weeks to get the next drop.  During which time, the perfect Alert might have been able to drop if they were still around.  Nightwave's consistent availability is great.  It is good that Nitain Extracts can now be purchased at any time, provided the proper currency.  But I think the two systems to get them and the other rewards would work better together.  Daily challenges have done wonders in other games, but if you start cutting other content to make room for them, you're going to be left with people who just grind out the daily and then stop.  Alerts were small, but they would occasionally bring someone back several times a day.

    Finally, I'd like to touch on the lore side of things.  Alerts didn't have much lore attached to them directly, but that they existed was good for the feel of the game's world.  Mainly because they gave it some subtle mobility.  Something was happening at this node, so the Tenno should go and do a thing to stop it or something.  It wasn't specific, but what in this game ever has been?  I've still never known what data I'm stealing in most spy missions.  There are still things like this, what with sorties and invasions, but Alerts and fissures were the only ones that the Tenno did for themselves.  Everything else is some third party faction giving them orders, and then presumably paying them for it.  Alerts were just...satisfying Lotus' curiosity, at best.  They were simple and quick, and even with the rewards being small, you felt like you had a reason to be doing the thing you were doing.  Without them, you're stuck with someone else's priorities, or laboring over the arbitrary choice of which node you want to visit next after every mission.

    To summarize, Nightwave is a good addition.  It brings more rewards to the table, and offers some more consistently than they've been available in the past.  But it should be an ADDITION.  Removing the Alerts to make room for it was not necessary, and is likely to cut playtime in the long run.

    Also, Nora annoys me.  I just had to mention that.

    • Like 1
  15. I honestly like this idea, and partly because the OP nature of a ‘finished build.’  Once you have that build finished, you have nowhere to go.  This would give some more progression at the endgame, as Uthael mentioned.


    Additionally, most augments aren’t unilaterally better versions of the abilities.  They alter how they work and how they’re used.  Very few can be considered a direct upgrade for all players of the warframe, and those that are could be considered pointers to deficient abilities, rather than the ‘augment’ they’re supposed to be (i.e. Hydroid’s Corrosive Barrage, which only really serves to make the ability relevant to high-level grineer).  Throughout most of the game, the need for a mod slot to change the ability is good, and causes a lot more thought to be put into builds, but once you’re through to the endgame, and have spent hours maximizing all that you can, using the augments is nearer a detriment than it is an upgrade, since you have to sacrifice power, not to have a better ability, but to use the ability as you want to.  Getting that mod slot back would be a good final upgrade for your build at that point.


    Another aspect that hasn’t been very discussed in this thread is the operator tie-in mentioned in the original post.  This makes a lot of sense, given the lore, and how the operator has been gaining more control over their arcane void-powers over the course of the story quests.  It seems reasonable that they would find ways to reshape the abilities for which their warframe uses it, akin to the amp’s refraction of their void beams.  I’m less certain of being able to toggle the augments in-mission, but this would give some attention to the synergy between operator and the specific warframe.  Don’t get me wrong, the focus trees and their effects on Warframe gameplay are great, but they’re also very general.  As of this moment, operator gameplay only cares that you have a warframe, and occasionally what role you’re playing with it (specifically in the case of Vazarin’s Mending Soul, which gives some preference healing); there is no effect or preference to what warframe you use.  I think I'd rather like to see some such preference, and augments seem like a reasonable way to bring it in.

  16. 3 hours ago, dynomitedestryr said:

    read the description for banish now

    and probobly because DE does not like trolls


    I can think of two ways the old Limbo could be a troll, as you say.  Since you weren't specific, allow me to answer the concerns of both:

    1. Someone who Banishes other players to the Rift for the amusement of watching them flail at no longer being able to pick up things, or to do damage.  Firstly, recall that you can roll to get out of the Rift.  Admittedly, this wasn't very well publicized to those who didn't use, or research Limbo in specific, but it was possible. Secondly, note that the new Banish is an AoE ability, which means that it will be far easier for Limbo to accidentally Banish an ally that didn't want to be Banished (which was likely the case more often than not with Limbo players before the change, as it was very easy for an ally to walk in front of him at the wrong time without realizing).  Now you can be Banished for merely standing near to the wrong enemy (melee users beware).  This effect was then worsened, not helped, by the new Limbo system.

    2. Someone who sits around in the Rift and never interacts with enemies or contributes anything to the team.  Given how complicated it is now to Banish any enemies and join them in the rift for combat (as previously posted in the original update 20 thread, you must come out of the Rift (dodging across the room nigh-uncontrollably), Banish them and all their buddies to the Rift, then jump back into the Rift (again, flying across the room, and squandering a majority of their knockdown effect, no less) just to make use of your most basic ability), and considering how every Rift ability now uses an area of effect (meaning that your choices are either spend all your time dodging uselessly around into and back out of the Rift to bring smaller groups of enemies in to join you, or use Cataclysm and Rift Surge to bring everyone and their dog into the Rift (which either includes your allies, likely as not giving you the title of troll: definition 1, as they can't pick things up as soon as Cataclysm wears off and you're relying on Rift Surge to keep the battle going, or excludes your allies, leaving you all alone against all the hordes of enemies, and doomed to fail because you're playing a squishy frame, balanced for spending most of his time untouchable in his own plane of existence (or you could use Stasis to stop everything, confusing your allies even if they're with you, as they can no longer deal damage for the duration of the ability, which again would likely get you labeled as a troll: definition 1))), this 'just sit around in the Rift and do nothing useful' sort of behavior is actually encouraged by the new system and its lack of time limitation.  These trolls will become more common, if anything.

    I would ask you here which definition you meant, but seeing as both concerns invalidate your initial statement, I don't see the need.  However, on the off-chance that your concern is not among these two, then please enlighten me, as if there IS any valid reason for this amalgamation of a new system, I have yet to hear of it.

    I still claim that a stationary Riftwalk, and/or the ability to use Banish from the other plane (perhaps at a reduced AoE or reduced damage (lower damage may actually make Limbo more fun to play at the lower levels, which is where he's normally attained, since the enemies might be able to survive entry into the Rift)), would make the new setup much more bearable than it is now.

  17. Alright, having played a few rounds at various levels as limbo since this update, I can now honestly say that I'm less than impressed.

    The primary reason for that is the fact that bringing enemies into the Rift is now egregiously complicated.  Previously, you could just hit a button and bring them in, but now you have to come out of the Rift (flying uncontrollably across the room, no less, skewing your aim), hit the button, then come back into the Rift (again, flying across the room for no reason), and then you can fight the one enemy that you wanted to fight, along with several that were just there.  This was clearly done to balance the new lack of time limit to your being in the Rift, but ultimately it just makes the whole system fail.  Additionally, I would consider the multiple enemies banished at once a fair compensation for that, since you're now bringing the whole battle into the rift, as opposed to just one or two selected enemies that either interest you or look like they'd be trouble for your friends.  Sure there's a knockdown effect on banishing, but that's not helpful since by the time you get back in the Rift, and situated with your new position, they'll already be back up and raring to go.  I understand that there's some concern about Limbo never exiting the Rift, and never doing anything to help a team, but with this convoluted Banish setup, that's precisely what your're encouraging.

    I've implied an additional problem with the 'dodge-to-enter-the-Rift' system.  That was a good idea, in theory, and the lack of time limit and energy cost is nothing if not enticing, but when you're not moving, and you want to hop to the other plane of reality it's rather annoying to suddenly be thrown to some other point on the map.  Now, since I almost never roll in most of my frames (the slide does about the same thing, but more controlled) using this button would be fine.  However, if I"m not moving, I...don't want to move just to enter the Rift.  So, if pre-existing motion could be considered in that setup, that would be much better. a stationary shift would also reduce the problems with Banish, as it would make more efficient shifts, and therefore the necessary shifts to conduct a banish would be much more doable.

    As far as Stasis goes, I definitely dig the idea for it; time-stopping is always fun, but it feels a touch at odds with the rest of his moveset.  Also, the enemies under its effect can still turn, which is odd, but I think that's a glitch more than anything else.  Those are really my only issues with this, and ultimately I don't put too much weight on the first one.

    The new Rift Surge is interesting; it's supposed to be a way for us to get people into the Rift even if we're still in the Rift.  The trouble I have with it is that to use it, we still have to go through the whole process to get someone in the Rift before we can do this.  And with Banish now effecting multiple targets, most of the targets will already be in the Rift by the time that Rift Surge is used.  Perhaps this problem changes form in extremely high levels (I've yet to do any sorties), but from what I've seen, this Rift Surge isn't the most useful of abilities.

    Limbo has always been about control over who can and/or will do battle with him, and I feel that he's lost quite a bit of that in this update.  I think these issues could be fixed with either a stationary riftwalk, or by allowing Banish to work on enemies in the other plane.  Or both of these solutions.  That would work too.

    Thanks, and I look forward to trying out the rest of the new material.

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