Renkuya

that's pretty terrible results, good lord. Why something like that needs a LoS nerf is.. confusing. Well, I guess it's not really confusing as they didn't understand why he was popular and what people wanted nerfed about him. They just saw a high initial usage stat and panic hit the nerf button. I'm going to be sad to let the PA and tennocon stuff go but, they won't even talk about the issue, I'm not going to pay them to nerf things and ignore me. Maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree. Maybe DE doesn't care about the forums, they only care about "content creators". A few loud voices over many quiet voices sort of deal.

we don't even need a 100% revert. Dropping LoS alone would return Dante to a significantly better place. He won't keep pace with Mesa/Saryn, but that's okay. Double hitting his 4 with LoS just seems criminal. You need to prime targets with LoS restrictions and then also detonate using LoS. Priming being LoS limited makes sense. Detonating should basically be just targeting the primed targets. It's so silly.

They explained the nerf just fine, he was "dominant". However, they also explained they weren't using any real statistics because new releases kind of break those stats for a while. So this was a purely "Dante seems too popular, let's find something to nerf". Heck, an influx of Nezha players might also be something they saw. The Augment must've gotten a bunch of people who already had Nezha to try him again. This spike in interest made them panic nerf the augment mod. My problem with this approach is the fact that they nerf due to popularity at all. Who cares if people start using Nezha slightly more. The "endgame" areas of the game are dominated by like 4 frames. Who would care if Nezha showed up .5% more often then his current usage stats? Basing your nerf cycles on "what's popular today" just sounds like a strategy to make people hate your game. I'm obviously fine with nerfs that hit obviously OP things. I never agreed with the Trinity change way back in the day but I never had her to the "make everyone on your team immune to damage" point. That being said, them describing the problem of "it entirely trivializes difficulty" made sense. Here we have an example of DE hearing "nerf dante" and a high release usage, and they responded with a totally out of touch nerf. As has been said, it's entirely wild to see that in response to "Dante screws over Inaros/Nidus/Chroma" they nerfed his 4 with LOS, killed the pageflight thing, nerfed the boost of OG but then upped the regen and somehow in 5 days determined that these were the needed steps to be taken. This sort of rapid nerfs are a strong message to anyone partaking in new content: don't. I won't buy the next warframe if they're going to live and die on this hill of "popularity is bad". Your game isn't going to be popular if you're always hammering people for having fun and destroying anything because "it's popular". TL;DR: I disagree with nerfing frames based on popularity, as it risks making players dislike the game. Nerfs should focus on overpowered elements, not popularity. The recent Dante nerf, in response to his high usage stats, seemed rushed and out of touch. Rapid nerfs discourage players from engaging with new content, and a consistent approach of nerfing popular elements may harm the game's popularity.

The crazy thing to me, even if Dante never gets reverted, why can't they say, "We're looking at the Nezha augment"? Dante is debatable, fine. -50% base range on that augment mod is a crime. They released an augment mod and then instantly destroyed it to the point no sane person would use it. And all so Nezha couldn't clear trash off the map...

I had plans to buy PA and the digital tennocon thing. I've bought the last 3 years of physical merch boxes and I've loved doing so. I was in the middle of finishing off pal world with a group of friends and planned to come back and spend then. I won't now. I've been here since 2013, I've experienced a lot of DE's "blunders" but it's pretty stomach turning to see this 35+ page thread being utterly ignored. They're not even commenting on the nezha augment which honestly confuses me to new levels. I've loved and hated Warframe the entire time I've played it, loved it because the lore is great and the gameplay is even better. I hated it because DE seem scattered in what they want warframe to be and throw all this weird crap into the game and then forget about it. I still have friends that won't return because of how railjack launched. I've been talking up DE as of late, I really felt like they were finally getting it and releasing banger update after banger update. There were still some questionable patches but it was way more "love" than "hate". This Dante and Nezha thing feels like old DE, it feels like a company that has their own thoughts about things and entirely ignores feedback. I mean, seriously the initial nerf wasn't even to address feedback, they had a gut feeling dante would be too strong (too dominant) and so they nerfed him the best they could while totally ignoring actual feedback. This new LoS being broken and over complicated is just yet another "DE moment" where you're left scratching your head wondering what happened.

I imagine they have someone internally that just told them, "it's not that big of a problem, ignore it and it'll die down". Which, probably they're not wrong. This will fade as Jade releases and tennocon steals attention away. In the end, this will amount to "remember the community screaming for X years to fix Y problem before it got resolved". If they go the "we know better, we're not listening to feedback" route it'll backfire. Maybe not now, but these things pile up until people have had enough.

This is the thing I found pretty disgusting. Blatantly ignoring the "unnerf dante" crowd seems like an oddly hostile approach from DE. I've held of on playing since the nerf, I probably just won't play until they fix him. I'm really not liking this way of handling things.

I think it's really impossible for us to continue this conversation in such a manner. Your post was a mile long, my post would need to be 2 miles long, your response could probably push 3. So, let me just cut to the heart of the matter. In my opinion it's okay to have a standard and nerf/buff towards that bar. They reacted too quickly with dante, they didn't have the data and they clearly didn't understand the "nerf dante" complaints until it was explained in detail to them. They've appeased the the Inaros/Nidus/Chroma users, the rest of what they did in regards to dante was way early. They tested him before releasing him, they tested the augment mod before releasing it. There is no reason they should've left the LOS off or not realized how much power the augment gave. In a knee jerk reaction they hammered the augment into useless and dante into a position he'll probably struggle to be good in SP+ difficulty. I think they could've probably just flat left nezha alone, I'd be impressed and honestly pleased to see Nezha on the same level of saryn. Saryn is in fact, fun to play. Mesa is also a blast to play. Both get called "OP" but that's because everything else kind of sucks. This game is a mix between a TPS and an ARPG, you kill hundreds to thousands of enemies a mission collectively. This isn't Gears of War or something, it's okay to kill an entire room, nerfing things to make them cost more or require more effort to reach max range, is acceptable. It's not acceptable to have a jank LOS on a skill that feels 100% better without it. Heck, ask any Ember player and they'll tell you not hitting things because of some totally random factor doesn't feel fun. That's what we should be building around, fun, not "omg they might be half as good as saryn so we should nerf them down to a shadow of themselves". TL;DR: There is a mentality around buffing weak things and nerfing overly strong things that is healthier than "massively nerf anything remotely worth using". Few games have done this but the philosophy favors fun more than anything else and at the end of the day, that's why we're here, to have fun. My question specifically for you (and I do/did read your full message, the TL;DR: sections were actually pretty amusing) how overtune was dante? Do you think he could compete with Octavia/Saryn/Revenant/Mesa? Do you think he was good but not quite as good? Are you basing any of this off of usage statistics or metrics of any kind or is it just a gut feeling? Should we really be nerfing new frames everyone is hyped about because "my gut tells me so"?

Notice how they're also very obviously not mentioning it either? This is your augment mod now, maybe in 2-3 years they'll bring the nerf down and ask to be pat on the head for making a "really good adjustment". Fixing the problems you make shouldn't get you a parade, but DE manages to do it year after year.

See, that all sounds good but you sort of complain about a thing that exists and the solution being taken away. If things get snagged on walls, what's the best method to fix that currently? Run over and kill said thing. If LOS wasn't a problem, we'd be able to just smack them through the wall with an ability. Or, look at it this way, I can shoot my gun through walls if I build punch through, but I can't do the same for abilities because "reasons". Now, granted if they would change vortex to pull only LoS, when that grineer lancer gets sucked into the backside of a crate, he'd stop being pulled. He'd then stand up, and likely just ragdoll back into his stuck position. Maybe it won't always be this loop but it'll still suck massively for the vauban/khora that now can't do what they do because they're in a cramped space. The more sane thing would be to just ignore LoS but apply Punch Through logic to the abilities. If you gave every frame 5m Punch Through and ignored LOS, the problem would drastically improve for the better. You wouldn't have to worry about that one grineer lancer stuck in a corner or something, your abilities could still pass through MOST obstacles. Hell, you could even scale the punch through off the range of the ability. Like for example, if Nezha can spear people in a 30m radius, you could say it punches through 15m, 50% punch through might be high, it might not be enough, but it's a hell of a better option than rolling the dies on even the improved LOS. LOS sucks in a game like this, it's totally fine for a competitive class shooter, which warframe isn't.

So then how is it not blatantly, "we don't want to listen to the players, we want to do our own thing"? Which, hey, that's fine.. but say so. You can't just sit there and pretend to be community focused when you blatantly don't listen to the complaints.

plus this is really weird behavior for them. Constantly putting out PR speech riddled announcements about, patting themselves on the back for "listening" and then ignoring all the feedback unless it aligns with what they want.

it doesn't need to be like that though. there are elegant approaches. Nerfing his range would honestly be better than LOS. Asking for us to not complain so they don't react in spite, that's a them problem, not an us problem. If they react in spite, they're doing so towards their customers and that generally doesn't end well. It already has a crazy energy cost because you have to cast 3 skills to get 1 nuke. I'd rather them do something like Punch Through for abilities. You can reach 70m out but your punch through only goes through like 4-8m, something less probably. Then I can probably safely say "oh, I see red on the map on the other side of that thin wall" and do something other than physically go into that room and try to get LOS on all the enemies after casting Dark Verse on everything so I have a CHANCE to nuke. LOS is stupid in a game like this and punch through would go a long way to finding a middle ground between LOS and multi-tile death frames.

This worked for my wife.

Wife is in the same boat, I linked my account before Tennocon, she had to link hers again. Doesn't the drop expire today? Is she just SOL because of high traffic?