XaoGarrent

What about a compromise? Tragedy has LoS by itself, but bypasses the LoS check on enemies tagged with Dark Verse. I suspect this is about high range builds nuking the whole map on regular starchart through walls (forgetting many other frames can also do this with their 4). I suspect this to be the case, because in Steel Path Tragedy by itself doesn't really do that much damage. The status burst from Dark Verse slash procs on the other hand can hit for millions of damage, but Dark Verse always had a LoS check.

Yeah, no. Nothing you said is true. Sweaty tryhards always cry for nerfs, and that's what you yourself are describing.

Any time developers listen to sweaty tryhards, everyone else has a bad time. Never forget this, and fight against the masochists while you can.

So if it's not obvious, the other problem besides the LoS being dysfunctional, is that some people liked the interaction between Dante's 3 and 4 as a tagging mechanic. E. G. tag enemies in different rooms as you travel between them, and then cash in with his 4. LoS is going to destroy that functionality in a game as focused around long segmented corridors as Warframe is.

Also, I think this needs to be said again: Player overguard will never be balancable in its current form. It will always be too powerful for the amount of investment and effort involved, or too weak. Because it doesn't scale with the vast majority of defensive player options, there are very few in between states that it can occupy. Ergo, players can't make choices to scale it, so it's either such a large value by default that it's overkill, or it's so little that a few armor archon shards and an HP mod makes it completely irrelevant.

There is a reason why so many people heard that and just went... The moment they commented on Dante, those of us with a memory longer than ten minutes and a more reality based perspective knew they were going to butcher him somehow. Adding a line of sight check to his 4 is actually how I expected them to do it. Any time they want to make something awful, they get their trainwreck of LoS code involved. Because it sounds reasonable on paper, but is absolutely dysfunctional in practice. So it ends up being a nerf nuke that allows for a lot of pretense and white knighting in their defense. What I still don't understand is why Kullervo didn't get hit the same way by some other mega nerf. Because damage wise, he's stronger than Dante and it was apparent from the first week onwards. Maybe it's the accessibility of that power, Kullervo needs much more build investment and tweaking.

Would you look at that ratio. Wonder how long before they remove the like function from the forums, because they got ratioed.

Friendly reminder that Kullervo and Saryn are still stronger.

The devs also said that pre-rework Volt wasn't meant to be a crowd control frame despite his 4 doing abysmal damage, but stunlocking crowds of enemies, at a time when mass crowd control wasn't as common of a thing. Sometimes the devs are rather misaligned with what they're actually creating. That doesn't mean that what they've made isn't working. Giving every frame an "ult" would be very limiting design wise, many frame designs just don't gel with that whole nuke-the-room-with-your-4 idea these days. I'd argue Grendel doesn't even *have* an ult, just an absurd amount buffs/debuffs and synergy between all of his abilities, along with very high mobility. And that's fine, he's an incredibly strong frame despite his lack of an ult. You could maybe call his 4 a "nuke," but it's not the highest damage ability and it does toxin, which is heavily resisted by armor. Against things other than Corpus, the reason it does damage really has more to do with the armor strip and possibly build choices you've made. And that armor strip helps with *everything.* As does the fact he's a walking ball of viral. Put an Incarnon weapon in Grendels hands, and THAT is a nuke. He doesn't *NEED* an ult. Or take Kullervo, his 4 is NOT his ult. Rather, it powers up or synergizes with his other abilities. Kullervo doesn't really have an ult either, but you could argue that Kullervo has two nukes, and they even work together. You could argue that his 3 and 4 maybe become an ult together, but neither of them are individually. He just does buckets of damage, and he can do it in a number of ways. I don't think anyone would claim he's worse off for not having an explicit ult button.

That in addition to all the crowd control would certainly make him a solid support frame. He has plenty of self sustain, but right now all of his healing only goes to himself, unless he runs combat discipline. ...Which is a valid choice given his enormous health pool and self healing. His 2 is also kind of disruptive, at least until it finishes. He kinda forces everyone to play at his pace. I think he could use a little more supportive design to counter balance that, Inaros is a *little* selfish for the type of frame he is supposed to be. Being able to give his team some healing over time through an offensive ability I think would help him be a little more appreciated on a team.

His 4 is obviously not really meant to be an "ult," as much as a debuff and DoT ability. I don't think its main function is meant to be crowd control, it just does that too. Energy cost aside, it's better to compare it to something like Hydroid's 1. It doesn't need to be super high damage, as it's meant to supplement other stuff, with a DoT and armor strip. It's also fine as a cone (as it's a giant cone), but it needs to spread faster. 4 (and possibly 3) probably should scale to power strength in addition to health, and it should just be faster in every sense. Faster spread, faster armor stripping, faster projectiles. Try replacing his 1 with Wrathful Advance, and running a viral/electric status dagger zaw with reach, Melee Influence and Exodia Force. A setup like this synergizes with his 2, and gives him a really straightforward flow of 4 > 1 > 2 > Melee.

I really don't know where I stand on this. On one hand, Inaros is still overly reliant on just having really strong weapon setups. On the other hand, he has really good weapon synergy in his 2. It might actually be the best grouping ability in the game now. His kit does work now... But it's a tad underwhelming. Especially for a frame that basically demands two green shards. I think he still needs work... But only a little. My suggestions are to make Elemental Sandstorm part of the base ability, and make his 4 tic faster (same damage, but spit up into faster tics to proc corrosive faster) and scale a little harder.

The irony of this is that the one frame that can benefit from more durability in this ability is Mirage herself, and you'll never want to use it for that on her because the light mode is key to ramping up her gun platform ability. Pretty much every other frame in the game wants more damage from it, but now there's no reason to ever use it for that instead of Roar or Xata's. This patch altogether made helminth balance worse, as before there was a reason to use every damage buffing ability. Some more than others, but at least it was relatively balanced. Now Eclipse and Nourish are just hands down inferior to Roar and Xata's, due to the later two being multiplicative, and roar effecting more than just guns. It's never a good sign when a change accomplishes the exact opposite of its stated goal, but I guess when you care more about the subjective reception (popularity) than objective reality, you end up making all sorts of very questionable decisions.

Good thing people play Mirage because she's a tank frame. EDIT: I realize most people are going to miss the sarcasm and satire in this. Everyone is talking about the Helminth ability, yet I bet most people haven't even tried Mirage yet. Which really betrays some shallow thinking. Unlike Grendel, Mirage had her core ability changed, two of them in fact, and her design is in a very fragile place. My build still works... But it's also a very expensive build.

Understand that the devs know that Helminth was a mistake, and anything worth actually using, like Nourish was, will be trashed in due time. Roar is likely going to be hit again once everyone switches to that, as is Xata's Whisper. I suspect Energized Munitions will get hit after that due to the shenanigans it enables on Gauss. I'm sure they'll eventually take a whack at Gloom, too, as well as Pillage, etc. If people are still using the Helminth system, they will probably go around and around nerfing in circles until people stop using it. They can't just remove it, because that would be admitting they made a mistake, something DE is not very good at.

My theory is closer to what the game says and implies.

All that makes clear is that the operator and the drifter don't have a full sense of their own survivability. Neither do we. But the operator dies *frequenly* in actual gameplay, and it's accompanied by some pretty supernatural FX to denote that *something* is not normal. And again, you're assuming you understand how what the man in the wall did works.

Alternately, when wally fused every other timeline's operator into you, all of their lives also became yours to spend- Potentially infinitely if the multiverse is infinite. Remember, we're dealing with something ancient and cosmic in nature, such creatures in fiction are often able to operate on "infinite" terms, even in ways that seem to defy logical physics. If this is the case, every single time the operator "dies," in or out of the Warframe, he pops back into existence as if it was an alternate timeline operator that died. Perhaps to the point of actual, absolute immortality. Basically, the "quantum immortality" meme, but visible and observable to all.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/concern-troll/ That's the point. A body in motion stays in motion. Saryn has for years been the whipping boy of the forum whiner squad, who cry nerf about her any time they're feeling inadequate and need to scapegoat something to feel better about themselves. Except it hasn't made sense to cry about Saryn for a long time, so any time a thread like this comes along a tailgate party of pretentious nonsense sets up camp, full of people who are excited that they can beat their favorite dead horse again. If that doesn't change, *eventually* she'll be in the same situation Hydroid and Oberon is. Especially with Incarnon weapons nudging the game away from a Frame centered meta. (...which honestly is better for the health of the game, as frame centric metas typically gatekeep anything that *isn't* an ability nuker) The point is that the community on this forum has no clue what's good or not because nobody bothers to "do their own research." Else they'd realize the OP is mostly right regardless of his fallible examples. I could come in here with all sorts of examples, all of them a million times more damning, and what I'd be met with is the same attitude of people arguing whatever is convenient, followed by circular butt patting. People are dogpiling the OP and calling him a clown, while they're busy constructing Ringling Bros and Barmun and Bailey, complete with a guest act from the three stooges. Entirely because everyone's brains are 5 years out of date. The Warframe forums are like a case study in the dunning-kruger effect. This isn't 2016-2018 Warframe where the hardest content was sortie 3 and the odd level 100 non-steelpath event, where corrosive stripped 100% armor, and Saryn stomping ESO and Hydron, or Chroma one shotting Eidolon limbs, was the meta. Update your knowledge, or stop posting. Saryn has hard limits and caps placed on her abilities that were based around a game where enemies had less EHP, overguard didn't exist, corrosive completely stripped armor, and the most attractive content was so tightly packed that Saryn could often prevent her spores from ever dropping off. Status has changed, content focus has changed, Saryn has eaten repeated nerfs, and years of power creep on *both* sides of the equation has taken place. We're in a world where Revenant with a Radiation specced crit Hek is meta for some of the most rewarding content in the game- If Incarnon weapons *weren't* gated behind a grindy mode involving random loadouts and buffs that effect normally difficult to scale abilities, Saryn would have basically no place in the peak of the current meta. What's really telling here is that nobody seems to be able to see what Saryn, Oberon and Hydroid all have in common. Right now, any frame that relies on an element not named viral fire or slash (and maaaaayyybbeee radiation just because of alloy armor) is either behind or falling behind, and sometimes even ones that do are still limping unless they're able to stack those elements incredibly fast, or have some unique instant inbuilt scaling. Now watch someone find the exception that proves the rule. The forumites need to learn how Warframe actually scales. Or maybe it's better they don't: If the people on here knew how many things there are now that can match or absolutely blow Saryn away (or just how valueable versatility is) they'd be trying to get everything nerfed at once.

And this is 100% a you problem. Try and figure out why. I wasn't aware you could ignore yourself.

Sir, I regret to inform you that you are looking in a mirror.

It's hilarious to me that there's been so much power creep and so many things have changed that Saryn is now starting to fall behind. Yes, forumites, gasp, shock, disbelief! Stick your head in the sand and justify your faith all you want, but Saryn isn't anywhere as powerful as she used to be. There are frames now that do what she does faster. Instead of curling up in a ball and rocking yourself to sleep with denial, ask Loki mains how this sort of thing happens. Sorry reality doesn't confirm you bias anymore.

So, the story behind original Mirage states that her shields failed, and as she continued to fight, she ran out of energy as well. She ended up in a bad situation, while fighting the Sentients, and then she presumably went down and was captured, as it suggests the next time Lotus makes contact with her, she's bound in energy shackles. She's restrained and brought before some powerful sentient, and lotus says she tries to "surge the revive system," but it fails because she's too far away. Mirage then laughs and tells Lotus "not to despair," before she watches her disintegrate at the hands of the Sentient. The bit about surging the revive system is an important detail, because that's usually something the operator does. That's what you're doing when you use an extra life to get your Warframe back up. Apparently, though, Lotus was doing it for her instead. Which suggests there wasn't a Tenno piloting her. This means she wasn't lobotomized by anyone. Not only this, but she was Lucid (if a bit screw loose) and working with the Lotus. So the original Mirage actually fought under the command of the Lotus, and died in battle against the Sentients. That puts... "Oh, how you suffered to become this beast. Yet you laughed at me. Others writhed and raged in the vice, but you, you played the fool. And so it was, that you distorted my design." In *very* different context. I don't think Mirage went insane like the others. I think Ballas *meant* her to, because I think he was driving the proto-frames insane on purpose... But despite the transformation being incredibly painful and Ballas attempting to break her mind the same way he did to Umbra, she somehow resisted... And then she turned the tables on him. The original Mirage *beat Ballas at his own game* She played the same kind of games with him he plays with others, and won. Then she went to fight on afterwards, under the command of the Lotus, until she finally died fighting the Sentients. Because she's not a frame being controlled by an operator, and an actual individual herself, Mirage was helpless once she was captured. There was no operator to pull the Warframe out of that situation, nor was there an operator for Lotus to pull out of the Warframe. I've actually been waiting years to hear the story of her beating Ballas. I'm really curious what she did to turn the tables on him, because the "distorted my design" wording suggests she didn't just attack him or something. I don't think that refers to the design of a frame, I think it refers to Mirage somehow completely screwing up Ballas' plans. His "grand design" if you will.

In China they are only allowed to play a few hours a day, as mandated by god emperor Xi. How else do you expect them to grind anything out in that amount of time. You might want to change the name of your pet before the CCP has DE go after you. More seriously, stop getting things nerfed to garbage because of what a tiny minority of players do. The vast majority of people run Gauss as a gunzerker/speed frame, the fact you can do this really is not a problem. Just wait until you see what Kullervo can do with Thermal Sunder.

Well, it's now hard to decide what is going in my Primary slot, since I went from having a couple steel path viable weapons to more than half a dozen in a period of a couple months. Secondaries are still a tough sell. Most of the good existing secondaries have been nerfed to the point there's no reason to bring them other than utility, which is why everyone's running around with Primer Prime (Epitaph). While a few of the Incarnons are good, most of them have something about them that I really don't like. As a result I feel like I might just run the Lex all the time. Or maybe the Dual Toxocist once I bother to finish formaing it. Can't say most of the new melee stands up to the Glaives or Wolf Sledge. Non-thrown melee just ate too many nerfs. Unless I'm playing Kulervo, of course. Some of his best melee weapons are actually pretty odd. The main way I feel about Incarnons is that I like having more SP viable options, but I wish they didn't nerf so much stuff I used to use into the ground. Where exactly does the Catchmoon live in a world with the Lex Incarnon?