Yg-Dosst
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Posts posted by Yg-Dosst
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Hmm..
You pointed out little bits I didn't notice that I now dislike. Then again I didn't much care for nova when the showed her off but now I like my cute little glass cannon. I'm sure by the time this ones released she'll be something wonderful. Probably.
Oooh a rainbow. -Goes in chase-
It helps when you get an explanation on what was intended.
Like how Nova I'd pretty much a broken battered doll, with a few kickbacks to the 70's: Lava-lamp head, bell-bottoms, and psuedo-science of things not known (was radiation back then, now it's antimatter)
But if they don't look they way they're meant to look, then what's the point of explaining it?
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Ironically enough I've had more than enough anger towards the new Berserker Warframe coming out. I've calmed considerably and can now express my complaints calmly and logically.
I'm going to have to be "that guy" and leak it to everyone as the format of the Council Board typically prevents us from being heard (we are not allowed to create our own threads and are forced to post in a thread 30+ pages long)
Before you ask, yes the Berserker is going to be female.
PMS jokes aside, that's not what I'm complaining about.
The council has had minimal influence on her and I think it would be for the best to take the liberty to express myself in the early stages of her development.
Both her appearance and declared abilities are terrible from a design stand-point. I apologize DE if you find any of this insulting, I am merely trying to help improve the circumstances and lead to a better Warframe. I dearly love this game and everything it stands for, as is why I wanted to have a say in it.
The topic of her appearance is easiest to tackle, so let's begin with that:
Let me first say what DE did right:
The idea behind her design was that she was in Mid-Corpus dissection during her escape, as was said in the stream today. They want her to appear "Skinless" as a defining feature akin to Ember's thighs and Trinity's lobster butt.
They made her skinless, because as a berserker she doesn't wear armor or care to protect herself, this being multiplied to the Nth degree by not only lacking armor completely, but also skin.
This is good because it displays her muscles and there for plays into the berserker role very nicely, it also makes her stand out and easy to tell apart even when recolored.
Also the broken restraints on the arms add mass and weight behind her hits, and shows that she is too powerful to be properly contained. Not only that, but even if they were not beneficial to the theme of the 'frame, it would probably require too much unnecessary effort to remove, considering the depth in which the arm and gauntlet meshes are fused together.
What DE did WRONG, is not as much of a personal opinion as it is pointing out contradictions in the design.
This is what needs to be fixed.
1.) She has no upper body mass. DE is not showing or displaying strength and "rip and tear" rage with shoulders and biceps that small and shriveled. I agree that it should not be made into a flesh rhino with breasts. I would say that she needs to have slightly more or equal the amount of mass Trinity has. They just need more emphasis on the muscle behind the upper arms, shoulders, collar bone, and her abdominal/oblique region, as we all know that the core of a fist fighter is actually one of the most important regions.Edit: These are the two primary section that seem to have a LACK of detail in that region, the Shoulders and the Abdomen. They are essentially white space on the frame. Adding the musculature here keeps the amount of detail even throughout the frame akin to the other Warframes, (Nova is supposed to represent a porcelain doll, and she has less "blank space" then this concept) while emphasizing a fit, lean strength.
Edit-2: After messing around for an hour in Paint.NET, I was able to learn to appreciate how well those "wires" on her legs blended in to look and act like tendons. Mynki is a genius. He just needs to abuse this to make the muscles more APPARENT by color-contrast, and the Zerker can look strong but still be as agile as she was before.
2.) Speaking of Collars, the headgear needs to be removed. The mask is fine, but the collar and "C-Clamp" around the head displays the exact opposite of what the shattered bracers show. Since the collar, a restraining device, is in tact it shows her as weak, and prevents you from defining the neck-collarbone region into something that looks powerful. It also limits the designs you can go with for the alt-helmets before the silhouette is changed TOO much.Edit: I'm fine with it but only so long as the collar is considered part of the helmet or part of a Syandana. In otherwords, if the Collar and C-clamp head gear are optional, even if I have to buy an alt helmet to remove it, then it's acceptable. It'd be a cheap marketing tactic, but it'd still be an improvement on the appearance of the Frame.
3.) Make the claws apparent. This is a minor detail, one that may be impossible to fix, but the claws should be more apparent. Many people are convinced that this is a "Catwoman" war frame and that is most likely not the direction intended with this. I recognize the small size may be due to the models interacting badly with the models of guns, but something as simple as making the entire ending half of the finger part of the claw, rather than just the nail, could do wonders while maintaining the same model size.If anybody is having an issue trying to depict what I mean here's my crappy Photoshop:
Notice it's not much of a change.
Like I said, I love the Art direction, it just needs to not conflict itself.
Now it's still off, by a lot, because I'm not a graphical design genius. But IMO it's closer to being unleashed, unrestrained, and powerful beserker.
We want to prevent "Rip and Tear" from turning into "Me-OW" from a skinless and fleshy ragezerker.
What passed my mind when I saw it: "feline"
What didn't pass my mind when I saw it: "berserker"- - -
Now to address the abilities:
Keep in mind these are NOT set in stone. They are more of concepts that already have some coding behind them. All the more reason to catch this baby in the first trimester. (If you were offended by that joke I apologize)
Berserker!
If you have followed any of my workshop posts recently, I have talked about the next Warframe. I wanted to give the Design Council a look at the progress of her abilities. Be warned these are ideas for abilities and nothing is set in stone yet.
Shield bash:
X% of current shields is converted into cone of damage in front of berserker. Enemies in the path of shield bash are knocked to the ground.
Intimidate:
A dual-purpose ability, targeted and radial at the same time. The targeted part of this ability allows the Berserker to shut down an enemy from far, causing them to cower in fear. The group part is a nice buff to fellow Tenno.
Targeted enemies will stop firing and moving for a period of time X secs.
Radial group buff X% armour increase to all Tenno around the berserker. X% reduction in stamina consumption.
Last Stand:
Berserker goes melee only, all melee damage is increased by X%. Berserker is invulnerable during Last Stand. Last Stand lasts for X secs. All damage done to Berserker is stored, when Last stand runs out all stored damage is dealt to the berserker unless berserker has killed all enemies around her when last stand started.
Now here is my issue: I am having a problem coming up with a 2-3 tier power that works with her other powers. So I thought I would ask for the Design Council’s help. I was hoping you guys could spur some inspiration. So please post your ideas below! Also tune into the next live stream when we give everyone a first look at the newest Warframe.Shield Bash is glorious. Sacrificing your protection for a massive damage attack sounds great. The synergy between this and the supportive Mag and Trinity characters is phenomenal. And I love the pun of what is a standard "Warrior-class" ability. HOWEVER, this ability requires that she did not take damage before using this, which is rather counter productive but easily overlooked if the other abilities synergize. The more glaring issue is that unlike shields, health does not regenerate. She MUST have some sort of self-heal, which she lacks, if she is to be functional on the long term, against ANY level of enemy. This is also a stretch, but make it cost 0 energy; her shield are already a heafty cost and this could easily work gloriously as a "last resort" ability when you're completely tapped out, a wonderful trope of the berserker, the last ditch effort.
Intimidate does not mix well at all. The ability resembles too much like Nekros's Terrify, and honestly should be something that ONLY Nekros has. A Taunt to pull enemies TO you would be much better. The coding is already in the game to, as the Djiin's Deadly Attraction. Love the Team armor buff though, as she needs a reason to be useful on a team level, without compromising the "lone warrior" feel of the 'Zerker.
Last Stand is outright terrible. I get that you didn't want outright invulnerability, but still this is going to be just another iron skin fiasco and you know it.
(At this point it is entirely my opinion so proceed with caution.)
Now for her ult a melee only mode is absolutely necessary. But make her not use her weapons, but her claws. Since the damage types are changing, I honestly believe it should deal flat, unaltered pure damage to enemies, ignoring armor, as to prevent her for being reduced to an "Infested Specialist" like Ember and Excaibur.
This also makes balancing her easier as you do not have to deal with certain weapons being more powerful or overpowered, nor do you have to worry about glaive/kestrel interaction.
This also means it could more stably be affected by Power Strength mods.
Trust me DE, you don't need invulnerability or pseudo-invulnerabilty. And being forced to kill everything in the room in a certain time makes the killing an obligation, not a fun scenario. A massive movement, akin to Volt speed, steroid, along with being forced into using a Fourth powerful melee weapon, is all you need. The drawback is that you have to get up-close in the first place, where you'll eat a lot of damage, and the 155 energy cost (assuming Blind Rage is applied, why wouldn't it be?) If you feel compelled to give some sort of damage resistance may I suggest you spice things up a bit and use a new dodge chance instead? It's basically invulnerability, just only x% of the time and can be balanced easier that way. Keep in mind she probably has a lot of armor and an armor buff. (Even if she doesn't refect it in her appearance.)
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Thank you for suffering through this wall of text, and thank you ahead of time for supporting this wonderful game.
And if DE actually does receive this message, then please at least let me know you're out there because I and a lot out there. I and a lot of the Council who care feel ignored but care deeply about this game. And while I'm not stating that "I could do better" I just want to put in the analysis of what impression -I- received upon getting the information about this character. I apologize for any previous outbursts, but I do feel very strongly about this and want to prevent players from receiving an unintended impression about this character's design as they are doing now.
Feel free to express your opinion, I would want nothing more than to have an actual discussion about her.
Thank you and keep on killing.
Also, if you agree with me hit the up-vote. It may help DE see this.
~ Yg'Dosst
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The first thing I want to state, is that the picture given to us was just that - a picture. A drawing. With input it can be changed and altered if the artists and graphics designers agree to it.
At the same time however, those cuffs and the neck brace may just be part of the picture to signify where she has been. They may not even be on the frame herself when she's released. Keep that in mind.
That is what I am Asking for.
I Am asking that they Emphasize the Muscle structure,
It plays off of their desire to make her look skinless. and giving her defined muscles do this.
By increasing the upper body strength and mass,
As Well as removing the Head Brace,
Do nothing but play into the idea that she is a meaty beserker whose primary defining characteristic is skinlessness.
If they need something to define the silhouette through walls, the digitigrade legs and gauntlets would do well for that, the Headgear is not needed.
The less "restricted" she appears (as a choker/collar implies) the better she appears as a unrestrained and relentless beserker.
Broken chains and gauntlets implies the opposite, that she cannot be contained, and blend rather well.
The Collar does the exact opposite.
Love the mask, Hate the C-clamp and Collar.
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Her 4th is pretty dumb. This game has insane amount enemies. If she fails to kill every enemy around her, let's say 100, she takes all of the damage she has received? That's not even remotely good.
You should see my suggestion that I've just posted.
With only Melee by the way, which is terrible as of now.
And for reasons that a 6x damage buff can't fix.
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You spent 100 bucks not only for the design council. You also got an absorbent amount of plat, and exclusive items. You also get sneak peaks at things before anyone else does (and don't point out things get leaked. That's not DE's fault - that's asshats being asshats.) And, as you just stated, you DO end up having a pretty big voice on what goes into Warframe next - the Berserker being only one example.
BDSM fetish? Really? Because whips are being added to the game? Or is it because she looks like she escaped from the Corpus?
A: Whips. People have been asking for whips for months now, since even within closed beta.
TL;DR - her current look is story driven. And frankly, she doesn't look bad nor "BDSM" like. Maybe you have a few skulls in your closet friend, because that sort of thing was far, -far-, from my mind when I first saw her. My first thought was - she looks a mix of vulnerable and enraged at such vulnerability. Beautiful, yet grotesque due to seemingly having no "skin". I truly applaud the art team on this one, because they made her incredibly unique. She doesn't look like your typical "Berserker" nor your typical "Warframe" yet at the same time she accentuates both. That is an insane accomplishment.
No, I understand and like the Idea of literally "Skinless" being the exact opposite of having heavy armor.
But the idea basing a Beserker around the idea of torture and suffering and not around Ripping and Tearing is pretty much tangential to the idea of a beserker.
It gives off the impression that she "Enjoys" the pain, torture, and suffering rather than directly displaying the fact that she's a Mauling killer.
The fact that she is still "Lithe and nimble" and utterly lacking COMPLETELY in upper body strength (with smaller arms and shoulders than NOVA) only proceeds to add on to this idea.If the Beserker is based off of rage, and not enjoying pain, then why would she leave the facial brace that is reminiscent of a damned Slaaneshi Cultist/Heretic on her head?
Now that I'm a lot more calm, and with personal testimony from a lot of the council, I do know that that the players have a a lot of input, but the Beserker is definitely not one of them.
The only input was that "Beserker" was one of the options on a poll forever ago.
We were then abruptly formed that most of her abilites were already conceptualized and that they already had concept art out.
IMO. She looks fine from a core concept point. Love the Skinlessness.
But if she is to be a character with an "Only-Melee" state, then she definitely needs a good bit more upper body strength. Yes she's female, but part of what people are complaining about the Beserker being female is that she won't appear to be strong. I, at first, was confident that DE would not make that kind of a bluder. Lo and behold they did.
Just make her look stronger.
Use muscles and muscle structure to further emphasize her skinlessness.Only good things can come from that.
And if it doesn't interupt the model with serious clipping, please make the claws more noticable.
People were specifically asking for NOT-catwoman claws when they did ask for claws.
Secondly please change the face.
Make it look like something other than a spiked facial brace.
The Gauntlets are fine, showing that she was once enslaved or "chained" as well as adding more mass behind her punches.
But the Face is bad.
I get it if you're trying to sell alt-helmets, but if that's the case, don't screw that up as much as mag's alt helms.
The Mask does NOT look "Angry"
We want RAGE!
Not "Helpless, vulnerable, and enslaved"
It's hard to make a featureless face look angry, but if you remove the Choker and the C-clamp on the sides of the head, 90% of that job is done.
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Are we really complaining about a frame that didn't come out yet? Really?
Yes.
This abomination should be voiced on so that it hopefully still has the potential to be changed.
Sitting back and letting the theme, mechanics, and art direction for the game get raped by someone's Braniac BDSM fetish is never a good idea.
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Instead of being completely negative, how about you actually be helpful and give DE your own suggestions, since you actually have the power to?
Sadly at the Council we have no power.
3 of the abilities were already decided.
This look was already decided.
The only "Say" we got was that we wanted a beserker.
That's it.
We got to vote on a Poll with "Beserker" as one of the options.
That's what we spent $100 bucks for.
And we aren't even getting a berserker.
Not to mention that trying to get your opinion heard in a single thread with over 32 pages, and DE was only responding for 3 of the pages.
Often negatively about the Player's suggestions.
At the Coucil board we can't make our own threads to voice our opinions either.
We literally have no power.
Don't upgrade if you're thinking about it.
It's not worth it.
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Will not buy, will not even farm for.
The abilites are more shoe-horned and crappy than Nekros.
Looks even more freakish and unappealing than Nekros.
And I don't want to be seen playing a Warframe that is basically a Bane Rip-off with a bondage fetish.
I was excited for a Muscular badass muscle girl akin to Wonder Woman and the Amazons.
Instead we get some kind of fetishized DC-tier S#&$.
I'm starting to lose my faith in the Warframe Devs, who had birthed such an amazing concept of a game.
And are now ruining it by pandering to sexist, horny 14/15-year olds.
If I wanted those kinds of people to rule the game I had payed 100$ to have a say in...
I'd just go and play League of Legends.
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If you start talking sense then every akimbo weapon would use 2 potatoes in the first place.. d'uh.. coz you know.. 2 pistols.
That's what the extra Cell is for...
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It just means that at higher levels you need to be a specialist to still be effectively killing stuff. Ragdolling allows for additional ways to play the game. You can see it as a glitch if you like, or you could believe that the Tenno have some tricks up their sleeve that are even more powerful than you thought. Sometimes, variety is good. Sometimes it allows for too easy gameplay. Tenno are supposed to be god tier when maxed out. As long as the game can encompass that, it is fine.
The game having to manually kill a enemy because it's laying half-way on a box is not a "Trick up their sleeve"
It's a horrendously immersion breaking and buggy system that can lead to abuse.
The entire map-enemy interactions with a mass ragdolling ability like pull, just makes me want to barf.
I mean no insult to DE, but Ragdolling is a terrible mechanic right now and has terrible bugginess with interactions with the scenery, that cannot be accounted for in any kind of intelligent play.
I'm not sure what you're saying for some of this. If her "niche" isn't useful then it's a bad niche. It doesn't matter if Mag has something that only she can do if that something isn't useful in general gameplay. Right now at lower levels at least Pull is fantastically useful. I run Bullet Attractor and Shield Polarize but rarely use them, the CC and "enemy detection" on Pull is just more useful for me, especially when my team gets swarmed. If I eventually have to turn to Crush for that utility then I don't think I'll be complaining much as long as it clears out the hoards of smaller enemies.
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No idea what you're taking about with the ability "relying on a gltich"
Her Role or niche as it was at every point throughout the game before Pullv2, was Heavy enemy management.
It might not be your playstyle with Mag, and I respect that. But that's what she excelled at and it was a very useful aspect to have, as no other warframe effectively handled and contained High Level Heavy gunners and humanoid bosses like Mag did.
She no longer handles ever remotely as well as she used to because of Ragdolling interacting poorly and not canceling Shockwave Moa's and Gunner's knockdown effects, etc. etc. That's why I'm vouching my opinion for it to be returned to knockdown.
And as you mentioned that it's useful when Toxic ancients get caught on the ground and inclines and weren't pulled, to which I replied that it is essentially relying on the poor buggy interactions between the ragdoll effect and the map.
Ragdolling just does not function in a predicatable manner, and the reason I want some kind of stability in that is so you CAN know exactly where, how, and in what direction those toxic ancients, and heavy gunners are going to be going...
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This really comes down to personal preference. Myself, I haven't really run into a situation where pulling someone away from enemies was going to be better than pulling those enemies away from the person.
Personally I'm less concerned about the trolling aspect and more concerned about the potential for accidentally yanking someone rather than dealing damage, which is going to be more frustrating for new players because it'll happen to them more, but absolutely rage inducing for older players on the rare occasions it does actually happen.
Personally I'd rather have a more intuitive to use ability without the possibility of that frustration than I would the extremely niche utility to pull a downed teammate out of danger.
This is, if anything, easier to avoid with the ragdoll mechanics than it was with the sliding. Sliding always clumped those three poison ancients right at your feet, the ragdoll tends to just knock them down and move them a short space and you can control that somewhat with positioning and direction of the pull.
It's actually slightly more than your FoV at least with FoV at default settings, which can actually be a little annoying since sometimes it's nice to only pull part of the enemy, especially since they get invulnerability frames on standing up. I'm fine with the small grace area behind Mag, that's saved me a few times when things get laggy or an enemy suddenly sneaks up behind me though I'd have to test a bit to see how big it actually is. I'd say only a few meters though from what I've seen so far, though I guess it could get pretty big if its affected by range boosting mods.
I'd rather see them fix ragdoll physics than change this to a sliding mechanic. I'd had quite a bit of fun getting above the defense objective and using Pull to yank people off the objective and even over the edge into a pit in some cases. Even if it is inconsistent I find it to be a much more fun to use mechanic than sliding, especially against things like Toxic Ancients >.<
Ash: Damage appears to be untyped for all damaging moves, seems to ignore armor.
Banshee: Sonic Boom is untyped but low damage, Sound Quake is reduced by Armor.
Ember: All abilities affected by Armor except Overheat's Area damage effect.
Excalibur: Slash Dash does Serrated Blade damage, Radial Javelin is Physics Impact damage. The latter is affected by armor on some enemies.
Frost: All damage abilities deal Freeze Damage which deals extra damage to shields but is affected by Armor.
Loki: No damaging abilities except for Radial Disarm's damage to Charger infested.
Mag: Pull ignores armor (may deal Phisics Impact damage meaning it only ignores armor on MOST enemies). Shield Polarize's shield damage ignores armor but the radial blast does not. Crush obviously does not.
Nekros: Soul Punch ignores armor, damage from Shadows Of The Dead does not.
Nova: Null Star deals Serrated Blade Damage. Antimatter Drop deals Laser damage. Molecular Prime deals Explosive Damage which is reduced by armor.
Nyx: Psychic Bolts deals Serrated Blade damage. Absord deals Forcefield Damage which seems to ignore armor.
Rhino: Damaging abilities do not appear to be affected by armor.
Saryn: Abilities deal Poison Damage, which ignores armor.
Trinity: No direct damage abilities. Link technically does unreduced damage but requires an external damage source and it's unclear if damage is reduced or not by enemy armor.
Vauban: Tesla deals Electricity damage. Vortex seems to ignore armor.
Volt: All abilities deal electrical damage, no AP here.
Overall I'd say the majority of abilities do deal typed damage and are affected by armor and since I had to look through all of the Warframes to compile this list I'd hazzard a guess that those abilities that are unaffected by armor have reduced damage to compensate, don't scale with ability power bonuses, and/or have no utility component.
Overall I'm unsure why you feel a massive AOE CC/damage ability should be focused on killing single heavily armored targets, especially when Mag's abilities as they stand are very clearly focused on dealing with groups of enemies. If your argument is "but you changed it!!!" then... sorry it's a Beta? Things are going to change and not everyone is going to be happy with those changes. Feedback is great but should focus more on problems, not "please change X to Y because I said so", which, in general your post was not doing. In this instance though I feel you're asking for a big buff to a single ability because it fits your play-style better, not because the buff is nessessarily warranted. I do feel Crush could use a bit of a boost, but not to Armor Piercing damage, that doesn't even make sense.
Well it's not a complaint to fit my play-style.
It's a request to fill her previous niche, which no longer has a frame to effectively hold it.
With the general increase in levels and the effectiveness in armor, DE is going in the wrong direction to try to keep her "Useful" rather than keep her in her role... Which is essentially gives her no point.
People are openly admitting on this thread that crush and pull have become unnecessary and that Polarize and Attractor are the useful abilities.
Both of which are focused on the debilitation of a single target. And yes, Sheild polarize does great AOE damage, but it does not function at all without that "Heavy unit"
While Crush never fit this Niche, but it was a great tool for essentially holding off and outright removing much of the trash enemies and leaving the strong ones there for you to hold off with those abilities.
You're right, the best solution is to fix how ragdolling interacts with pull.
But the best solution would be fixing Ragdolling, but relying on a glitch and random chance on a character based heavily around tactical positioning just simply does not fit.
Now if they were pulled a set distance torwards you (a % of the maximum range), rather than relying on a physics mechanic that's unstable, as it did in the first version of it, that would solve just about all of the issues with toxic ancients, as you just move to where they are at the back of the cone.
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I'm going to preface this with a few things:
I'm a new player, so I'm not up to the really high end content.
I picked Mag at the start intent on sticking with the frame for the long-haul, building up weapons and polarities that complement the frame.
I am too new to have played with previous versions of Mag, but I have seen some videos of those previous versions so I'm not speaking from a place of complete ignorance.
So, having said that...
No. To most of it.
As someone playing through lower-level content Pull feels really really powerful, possibly too much so, but I'm also starting to get to the point where it doesn't just gib through enemies which makes me want to reserve judgement on it somewhat. It's certainly a very powerful nuke ability but I don't like most of your changes.
The rag-doll effect gives you more options to use the skill than a simple floor-drag would, you can adjust how and where enemies fly by jumping and/or changing the direction of your camera and that feels a lot better than a rather lack-luster slide effect.
Ditto to removing the ability to use it through cover. Tighten up the cone a little maybe so it's not ~120 degrees in front of you but the ability to yank people from behind cover is more or less what makes this ability. If you take that away why am I going to take Mag over, say, Volt or Frost?
Being able to pull allies would be nice, but could also get rather frustrating for everyone involved. This is only really useful on downed allies, on everyone else it's only good for trolling. While being able to make a last-second pull rescue would be pretty cool it's also very niche compared to the likelyhood of either accidentally or intentionally yanking an ally out of melee when that's exactly where they want to be.
And lastly, the damage... Just no. Yes, maxing out Pull makes it really really powerful at low levels and maybe it needs a damage reduction, but that's a pretty big maybe. It doesn't scale well and the CC it does provide isn't nearly powerful enough to justify completely removing its damage. This is a knockdown, not a knockdown with a slow, stasis effect, or anything similarly powerful...
As for Crush...
So, yeah, changing it to physics damage would be pretty cool but lots of other Warframe Ultimate abilities are reduced by armor, and considering Crush pulls people up into the air (where they can be freely shot by teammates) and then throws them around anyway it's definitely a more powerful CC effect than Pull. You're comparing it to a single very high armor enemy at high level and then declaring it bad, that's silly. It's like declaring that Frost's abilities need a damage buff because they're lackluster against Infested even though they tear through shields on Corpus and Grineer.
So, yeah, from a newer player, no to most of this. I don't want Toxic Ancients landing at my feet, I don't want to accidentally yank that Exalibur out of melee (or be yanked around by a troll-Mag), and overall I think the ability is more fun now than it was before it just needs some tuning.
First off, as for the people complaining about trolling...
We have Vauban, Who with Flux can drop down 9 Bounce pads around the control panel in a room, and then shoot out the window.
This legitimately kills an entire team, nothing else has any kind of trolling potential compared to that... Yet Vauban still has his bounce pad because it can be legitimately used as a useful tool.
There's no reason that Mag should not have her useful support tool.
And I can say from experience that having all of your enemies pulled through you or into you (or even worse pulled into the object you're trying to defend), is a lot more annoying.
Getting a face-full of ragdolled toxic ancient is never fun especially at levels 80-120
Now Like you said, the cover mechanic is something that shouldn't apply but I do like your suggestion of tightening the cone. The 120 degrees, pretty much your entire vision, is a little ridiculous and probably would be a better fix to the unnecessarily large zone behind it.
The reason for having it as knockdown is to be able to maintain sight of their healthbars, more fluid interaction with frost effects and teammates, increased visibility and stability on the battlefield, and a guaranteed ability to interact with knockdown status without having to wait for the ragdoll to settle on the ground and worrying about random terrain collision errors.
If they refined and fixed ragdolling in general to be less chaotic and more predictable that would be better.
However the current system of ragdolling was designed for kicking, hitting, and exploding enemies AWAY from you, and has poor interactions and interactions when the physics are moving TOWARDS the source.
Even if Ragdolling has the ability to make enemies go airborne by "Jump-pulling" That's even worse, and that in and of itself can be a form of trolling on higher level enemies where the damage no longer matters, shifting about and mucking up the order and positioning of the enemies.
Also on the Topic of Damage types for Crush.
No very very few warframes have abilities that don't ignore armor.
Especially not Ultimate abilities.
Crush does not function or have much use at High levels compared to say "Saryn"
Against Most Grineer, and Infested ancients, leaving her to only be somewhat useful against the Corpus.
Even Volt is more useful against Grineer than Mag, with his electric shield.
Teammates and only teammates "Being able to shoot at them" does not justify the use of 100 energy when say a Saryn could just wipe them completely and in an instant.
Making Crush Armor Piercing damage would essentially shift this focus to being weaker against light infested, and excelling at handling Grineer heavy units and ancients.
Which was Mag's original role, the effective handling, trapping, debilitation, and killing of Single Large, shielded heavy units, rather than being able to wipe entire waves of crappy trash swarm mobs.
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It's also the very same coding that affects such abilities as Nyx's Absorb, Excalibur's Radial Javelin, and so on, which are widely regarded as incredibly weak because the target can make themselves half-covered behind a box and block all of the damage... and these are ultimates, which you think they'd have a little more respect for.
You wouldn't believe how frustrating it is to cast Absorb at the top of a ramp and miss all of the enemies at the bottom of it because you clipped on the floor a little.
The principle is that you turn on a flashlight, everything you illuminate <70% is affected, and everything even remotely in the shadow is safe from you. Given these maps though, there's a lot of shadow.
With the current and immediately previous iterations of Pull, the shadow is ignored in favor of slamming enemies into other magnetic structures- that being the walls and barricades that were "saving them" in the first place.
I'm okay with the idea of Pull not bringing enemies all the way over to Mag if the enemy physically is blocked by a structure, and you're right, knockdown is much more effective than ragdoll simply because you can keep shooting knocked-down enemies.
But honestly, I prefer being able to slam enemies into waist-high railings and pull some trickery from behind cover over being forced to run out into the open and getting shot down by the dozen would-be snipers cowering on the opposite end of the room.
You know you're right.
Especially with the magnetizing the scenery bit.
The cone's a little big IMO, but I'll take out the bit about cover in the morning.
Knocking down people are still a benefit and just because they have their big toe on a chest-high wall shouldn't cancel it.
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Since this is probably to be moved anyways.
And trust me, once this gets moved to Fan Concepts the thread will instantly die... (It's below even Off-topic)
I'd like to say this:
While I may look like an &#!,
Taking Rhino, Throwing on a Vanguard Helmet and Using his ability slots for other Statistical mods...
That's pretty much exactly what you're asking for.
Some people even legitimately build like this because that's the play style they want.
However Iron Skin is left on for obvious reasons.
Just ask someone for their Iron Skin only Rhino build.
It's really effective.
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Of course, pull is fun therefore NERF IT NERF IT ....................
No wonder DE decided to have an art festival today. Apparently that's the only thing that is nerfer proof!
It's not a nerf. It's changing the functionality of Crush and Pull back to what they were before and optimizing it for that role.
Yes, that involves removing the damage on pull. But it was never meant to do that before this random Shoehorned attempt to make Mag into a crappy half-Nova.
Pull WAS fun before the $&*&*#(%& update that completely changed it's appearance and function.
Let me get this straight, I love Mag with all of my heart, and the last thing I want is for her to become sub-par again.
She just needs to be Mag, and DE needs to stop trying to make her just another nuker.
That's all I'm asking.
*Gotta Snip it*
You don't know how much it means to me that we're actually discussing this:
If I remember right, Not being able to target things behind cover is actually in the game already... I think one of Banshee's abilities.
The "In Cover" is actually coded VERY well.
You can only see allies as silhouettes when a certain % of their body is covered by objects between you.
Unless I'm mistaken the game uses a similar code to determine "In Cover" and likewise would be able to pull Grineer as they peek around cover etc.
Even then I can see it at least knocking them down rather then dragging them.
Mostly an Aestetic and logical quirk for me, but I can see forgoing that.
But my main issue with it is being able to hit people while cowering behind a box. The damage making that even worse.
Toxic ancients have always been an issue for Mag, and always will be, but that would make the necessity of positioning (what I enjoy the most about Mag) to be more prevalent.
The Change back to Knockdown is also more aestetic but It's for improved stability on the battlefield, for you know, improved cooperation in a cooperative game. It's much easier to track and kill a target that gets knocked down and drug to your ally, rather than fly up in the air in a random manner and float listlessly to your ally.
It's easier to track and maintain aim on a target if all of the enemies around it fall to the ground, below hip level, in a uniform manner. Expecially if your enemy is behind or at the end of the AOE.
Ragdolling and pulling causes crap to float about and in some instances makes it impossible to see your target. Expecially if your enemy is behind or at the end of a cone.
Now you do have an argument there for Physics Impact damage vs Armor peircing.
I'm not sure which one is better.
But I know for certain that Physics Impact is the damage that pins people to walls when projectiles are involved.
And that Armor piercing deals 50% extra damage to Heavy Grineer, and 50% LESS damage to Light Infested (Not Ancients)
The main issue is that, will 650 damage kill a high level charger? And is the extra damage on Grineer worth the less effectiveness on Chargers?
I know for a fact that Armor peircing will do a full 1300 damage to Ancients and deal 1950 damage to Heavy Grineer.
Maybe that'd be something to put in the OP as a question...
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Oh and to state something else: almost every warframe once they reach a certain level are auto kills on lower and mid level enemies. to say that it is an auto kill on lower level enemies is not surprising....it should be!!! Once I reach a certain level, and have the right loadout for her I better expect that if I see a level 25 Grineer they should be dead, unless its a nightmare situation.
Mag is still mag, it didn't change that unless you know how to really use her well, once you hit the higher levels you will get pasted pretty much whether or not its the old pull or the one we have now. Plus I do appreciate NOT having a block party sitting at my feet when I pull them to me. I am willing to prove my point that I will run with anybody in Outer Terminus anytime I am on to show what the changes have done for my high level game. and why I want them to leave pull alone for the most part. If they want to tone down the damage a bit, ok fine, but leave the rest alone cause I have realized how to use pull to maximum effect and crush I still spam it for the"10 to 12 second grace period" a team needs to recover/save a fallen Tenno.
If you're around in 3.5-4 hours I'll gladly take you up on that offer, but right now I've got an appointment in a few minutes.
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yeah well, you either blind or unexperienced.
Thanks for the Ad Hominem, great argument you have there.
Mag was my second warframe, because I played back when she wasn't a starter, and she was the first Warframe I got to level 30.
I've been through almost every one of her changes, I've seen back when Sheild Polarize was laughable and not the great and perfected Sheild ripping tool like it is today.
Even back then she was still one of the greatest Frames and was almost necessary for High-ranking Infested missions and a good number of high-mobility bosses.
If I sound offended, that's because I am offended.
Now please orchestrate your point and reasoning more clearly and I may be able to address it.
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Sorry you need to leave this alone, I can bet you guys never really tried to use pull in higher levels have you? I know I have and to be truthful its some of the best battlefield control around for this one reason(( And NO it does not kill anybody in one or many shots of using pull on Outer Terminus)): It breaks up the wall of lead and death the Corpus and Grineer have when they are charging you. Cause I know that when I am running Pluto I NEVER hear once "Stop using pull, its too chaotic, I cant shoot them!!" NOT ONCE I have heard that cause usually when you see 20 Corpus with 2 railgun Moas closing in and that wall of laser death is coming, pull knocks them down and when the start getting back up, they are dead cause I dont give them the chance.
If you cant take advantage of the 8 seconds that it takes them to get up to kill them, you really need to check over your loadouts. The only things that survive a Pull/Crush KO is Heavy enemies.
But I will agree with you that the armor pierce is a good idea and tie it to the powering up of the Crush Mod since for some unknown reason a disturbingly large group of players DO NOT level up their Warframe mods. Its one of the reasons I wonder how people play this game when they dont even fully take advantage of the mod system and level up their cards.
You entirely missed the point.
Like you said, or incidentally implied, the damage is completely arbitrary and unneeded.
Pull is for the CC. And while the Ragdoll is an interesting addition. It's not nearly as effective as sliding them knockdowned to your feet, where people can clean it up easily with Melee and no bullets spent. It also allows for execution attacks on Heavies.
And being able to choose between dragging your allies out of a fight, and dragging the fight out of your allies has always been my favorite part about Mag, that's just not possible anymore.
Also the 187 damage WAS with a Max level Crush.
It's laughably underpowered.
While Pull just doesn't function as it did or should.
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yeah. lets make her useless again.
mm, however i don't care about pull or crush, until shield polarize works as it works i am ok with you ranting.
She's never been useless
Just difficult.
Plus wiith all of the other additions of core game mechanics and mods, (Namely Knockdown Executions and Heavy Impact) the Damage on her pull is unneeded, unfitting, redundant, and unnecessary.
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Mag is pretty much my favorite Warfame.
She has had a largely tactical and subjective role on the battlefield, with most of her abilities being useful in ways that you can't measure with a damage indicator.
Mag has always been buggy, full of glitches, and a poster-child for testing new physics features in the game.
While I am Glad that Shield Polarize and Bullet Attractor have been fixed and made useful.
Pull and Crush are now Broken and dysfunctional.Why is Pull Broken?
It doesn't pull. It's a Massive Cone Armor-ignore damage nuke that you can snipe an entire map with behind a box, causing a large amount of enemies to die and fly spasmodically across the map.
It's effects does more than a good bit of other Frame's Ults for only a quarter of the cost.
Because it Ragdolls rather than Knockdown-and-drags, the enemies fly chaotically all over the place.
This is Aesthetically and mechanically annoying for both me and other players.
Not to mention that at early levels of survival and Defense, she one-shots just about an entire wave in two clicks.
This isn't fun.
Not for me, not for the other party members on the team.
Especially when I wanted to play a CC boat...
It's too simple to scroll up (what I have it set to) and then to see an entire wave die in a bland and glitchy manner.
How to fix Pull:
First off, Make it knockdown to pull, not ragdoll.
While it's nice to see DE try to put the new physics effect on the Magnetic Manipulator... It doesn't work.
Those that die from the pull fly across the field, disrupting and annoying the players.
Those that do not die, fall to the ground limply and get stuck on it, not being pulled by the attack.
If you knock them down, the terrain functions much better at funneling them towards you, like it always has worked.Secondly, tighten up the cone of effect.
For a the FIrst BASIC ability, being able to hit everything in and beyond your sight (120 degrees) is a little ridiculous, especially so when comparatively every other Warframe's abilities does not have a Area of Effect this large.
Tightening the cone to about 60 degrees would allow you pull on just the Center ~25% of your screen.
This is a good thing.
Being able to precisely aim at a section and pull only the cluster of enemies you want more proficiently would allow you help avoid pulling those Toxic Ancients that have always been the bane of Mag.Additionally, Restore some of its old features, teammate-pull for one.
These were both fun and useful features of pull.
Being able to pull a downed teammate out of a poison cloud was great. Because they can now move while downed does not make this ability useless by any means.
How do we make the new AOE pull work on team-mates?
Simple. If the cursor is over a team-mate, it pulls only that team-mate. The ability is focused just on them.
If it is not on a team-mate, then it resorts to the mass enemy pull as usual, leaving team-mates out of it.
Lastly, remove the damage.
I know this is going to give me some flak, but she doesn't need it.
It's was and has always been a support utility tool that was designed for cheap Mass CC; as that is her function: a CC support Warframe.
The fact that it kills outright, rather than being able to drag them and then finish them off, is not satisfying in any manner, and I actually feel the need to apologize to my teammates for ruining the enjoyment of actually killing things themselves.
Mag is NOT AoE Damage Nuker #17
She is a Tactical Crowd Control Support character, leave her ult to deal the damage.
Speaking of her ult:
Why is Crush Broken?
It's underpowered. It's useless compared to the massive damage capability and CC that Pull is.
Pull does 300 damage to level 80 Ancients. Crush does 187.
Pull costs 25 energy, Crush costs 100.
The ragdoll on pull lasts ~1.5 seconds for me, And while Crush lasts 3 seconds total, it has 4 times the cost.
See the issue?
Pull is 8x more efficient for the damage and 2x more efficient CC.Arguably the AOE size is pretty much the same.
Pull was originally the Cheap CC tool while Crush was her primary source of damage.
Crush is now useless because of Pull's massive (relative) damage and efficiency.
How to Fix Crush:
Make it Armor Piercing. Not Armor Ignore, Armor Piercing.
You're picking up a large quantity of shrapnel and forcing it into them as well as breaking their spine.
There's no reason It shouldn't do MORE damage to Heavily armored targets, rather than Lighter-armored ones.Not to mention Mag has
This way the massive 1000 damage AOE Nuke becomes a useful tool for clearing at high levels, rather than being completely outclassed by Pull.
That's it. Just change the Damage type. It's that simple.
If you fix Pull by reverting it back to it's old role and function, that'd be the majority of what it takes to fix her.- - -
Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully Mag gets fixed to where she can FINALLY stay as her old tactically-played Crowd Controlling self, and leave the Massive AOE and Nuking to the Seven other Warframes who have that role.
~ Yg-Dosst
EDIT: Removed request for Cover-blocking, replaced with Tightened Cone Angle request. People made some very good points.
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Anyone else got any ideas for possible abilities
or even names?
We all know that if this somehow ends up on the Design Council it'd be voted on for a name?
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Well, the idea is to have enough armor and % damage reduction stacked to make the regeneration effective for her in combat, and a somewhat decent recovery tool between fights, and add a decent counter to when poison clouds start to stack up in one area.Nice Idea, but healing is not that great in this game. In later stages all that matters is crowd control and Weapon. Despite this being great Idea and so on I would say better change her abilitys slighty. Give her crowd control agro on her with damage reduction/heal and ability to revive automatically after a short delay if she dies maybe so that she would be viable and outclass Rhino.
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I'd prefer they made the berserker frame concept thrown around in the council into a female tank frame. Plantframe doesn't do too much for me as a concept.
But Rhino IS the beserker.
Or so I can tell.
At least from the fact that they added the Damage buff Roar to Rhino after the Beserker idea went down well with the Design Council.
If you make a news one , then Trinity would be useless...and with what you put , we need only one the second will be useless right?
Theire already problems getting a Trinity in your games so another one will be still harder , exept for the first week of release where people would play it only for mastery
Well not exactly.
Trinity is useless because Rhino just dominates to the point of not needing the "Oh crap" buttons and sustainable energy that Trinity can supply. You can blame her lack of appearance on the Energy regeneration Aura and Rhino's Iron Skin.
Having a Female Tank with a HP regen akin to a reversed Poison cloud wouldn't make Trinity obsolete at all, as that's not by any means even close to the "Oh Crap, Full Shields, Health, and Invulnerability" button, and it requires team coordination for the heal to work slightly.
And even then, that's the only kind of heal I can see making sense on a Plant Warframe, and isn't exactly necessary.
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You can only stand not playing the game for so long.
But overpowered ult's are the standard for casters so it's irrelevant...What the REAL issue here is:
Why the Hell does Mag's Pull do the full 300 damage to ancients, but crush only does 187 out of 1000?
And better yet, why the hell does Mag's pull do damage AT ALL, much less being more Damage/energy efficient than her ult?
Raging Over The 'zerker 'frame
in Warframes
Posted
Heh... silly me. I forgot to put the "n't" on wouldn't. Sorry for the confusion but I agree with you exactly.