Maganar
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Posts posted by Maganar
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On 2019-11-04 at 3:15 PM, Dash_Lambda said:
Except executing finishers with the melee key is not intuitive.
When I was a new player, I was extremely confused as to why I would suddenly go from moving around and hitting things to being stuck on one enemy while a special animation plays. I actually thought it was a bug at first, and when I found out it wasn't I continued to consider it a bug in principle. If I press a button, I want to know exactly what it's going to do. Context-sensitive actions should depend on greater context, not circumstances: Gun mode, melee mode, operator mode, menus, etc. are contexts, a fleeting prompt that shows up right before you hit something isn't context.
What's more, tying it with the melee key meant there were certain circumstances in which you would be totally unable to use a melee weapon normally. I used to absolutely hate having an Inaros or Excalibur on my team because their abilities would force me to use finishers on entire crowds of enemies.
And I'm not a spin-to-win guy. My favorite weapon type is brawlers/claws, where I'm not just sweeping up rooms of enemies. So even when I'm going enemy-by-enemy, even when the finishers are fast, even when the animations are fun and satisfying, having finishers on the same key as normal melee attacks pisses me off because I'm telling Valkyr to swipe the guy, not suplex him or climb up on his back and break his neck.
So for some people it's not that finishers interrupt their happy little spinning macro, it's that they hate the disconnect that happens when you don't have control over what your character is doing.
On 2019-11-04 at 7:28 PM, Maxim_M_Payne said:Unfortunately, that's exactly the reason that the re-binding of finishers to X and changing of charge/ranged-gunblade/throw attacks from held E to Mouse3 makes me angry. That is making my character no longer do what I control. There is literally and objectively no keybinding in the entire history of computer games or computer-ported games that is worse and more clunky than clicking mouse-wheel/side-buttons. Who thought Mouse3 was what anyone wanted?
Maxim_M_Payne really brings to light an unmentioned source of the additional frustration for me in responding to Dash_Lambda's rebuttal to my initial post with the absolute absurdity of middle-mouse in the first place. That said, I simply can't follow Dash_Lambda's logic on training new players. If you saw a completely unique animation that was caused only when melee'ing during staggers, blinds, or sleep, why would you ever think it was a bug, especially since it is 100% reproducible? I got extremely excited the first time I did a finisher with Valkyr and realized there was this entirely new melee mechanic I could now do which provided these awesome finisher animations and loads of damage. It never crossed my mind for a microsecond that this was unintentional, and I knew exactly how I had done it.
The thing about ease of use, disconnect, and wanting control over the character that Dash_Lambda brings up rings much more convincing for me and I understand this pain a lot more than the new player experience rebuttal. That said, I'm still with Maxim_M_Payne's reply on this as far as my personal opinion - but this does not make Dash_Lambda's contradictory opinion any less valid.
Right above this, I replied to another of my critics and concluded why I should probably settle for the option to keybind Use and Melee to the same key as I initially suggested, even though I only suggested it as the "no-backbone" solution. It's the option that satisfies my needs and those of people like Dash_Lambda (and the other critic) with only new players that think like myself suffering in this situation. It's the best for the largest number of people right now as I'm seeing it.
....Aaaaand we still need gunblades and glaives back to charge attack for firing and throwing as Maxim_M_Payne brings back up. That's just something I'm not budging on. Just look at how many people are complaining the same thing about the Zenistar and Wolf Sledge as well, which I've come to include in all my latest petitioning comments for this change.
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On 2019-11-04 at 1:15 PM, DoomFruit said:
The way that melee weapons are now, L30 Grineer (at least) get splattered with a single ordinary swing of my Orthos Prime. If they die in one normal hit, why should I be forced into some stupid dance just because they're unaware of me? In fact, if they die in 5 hits, it's still faster to just swing normally at them rather than go into some annoying cutscene. If they take even more punishment, I still do not want to do finishers because I'm standing there motionless while all the other enemies are crowding around me ready to open fire.
It all comes back to control, player choice and movement. If you stop moving at high levels, you die. If you get locked into some long animation, you stop moving. I do not normally want to stop moving around, but if I do, it is because I explicitly stop pushing movement buttons. Not because the game arbitrarily decides "oh, you should be glued to the floor" right now.
On that we can strongly agree, as this is what's absolutely murdering the usability of glaives and gunblades after this update. Both require you to melee the empty air in front of you just to switch to them, to be ALLOWED to do a throw/fire of the weapon (because it's on heavy attack which the game believes is an alternate fire input for your gun... even if it has no alt-fire). This issue has been my other main soapbox for this update.
I just don't believe finishers work like this at all. A finisher completely prevents inputs from the enemy you are finishing, and it's more or less body-blocking for you while you do it since you are so close to it. Instead, I find a much higher risk at high level dying when TRYING to do a finisher and having units like Arson Eximus and Heavy Gunners just ignoring it by activating their cc-immune states (Heat Wave blast and radial fist slam). If they cheese me while I am trying to melee them using the old melee system, I'm still pummeling them with melee attacks while they disregard my stagger attempt (to open them to a finisher) and they'll either die before they finish the animation or likely come out of the animation already-staggered. Now they just riddle me with holes, because I'm still mashing the wrong key and only just registering that my desired input has been completely ignored by an enemy cheese state.
An alternative solution that might appeal to both of us would be to cut the nonsensical enemy cheese states with these cc-immune animations so that no one feels like the game mechanics leave them wide open to be killed in high level content due to things beyond our control. However, I still feel this leaves new players to suffer the consequences in it being even harder to learn melee mechanics like finishers with multiple keys governing essentially the same function ("kill with melee"), and it will still reduce the flow and ease of gameplay for warframes like Valkyr and Gara. Thus, this only feels like half a solution and doesn't truly appeal to me (then again, the freeing us up to keybind as we wish would allow me to complete the solution for myself, and now it is only the new player learning curve that is an issue, which is why that might be the most optimal solution for all).
That said, I don't expect DE to remove these age-old frustration-rich mechanics like the enemies just ignoring your crowd control attempts (while attempting to apply crowd control to you in both the above examples, which is cute) so I didn't offer the suggestion the first time. I'll put it here for your consideration now, though, so you can see where I'm coming from and what I truly want, which isn't to ruin your own gameplay preferences (I know you never said that, but I'm just stating it openly for the record). We're both dealing with the same issue of being left open to enemies standing directly at point blank range in front of them in high level content, but different playstyles mean that our needs are largely at odds and the freedom to keybind might be the best option.
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On 2019-11-02 at 1:57 AM, DoomFruit said:
Put it back on melee by default? Absolutely not. I've hated being forced to do finishers for more than 6 years now. If I find a patrol of (relatively) low level enemies and charge at them from behind, I expect to cut them all down in one swing from my range-modded weapon. I do not want to get locked in to some stupid dance with one single enemy.
Give us an option to do so, yeah, but definitely don't force finishers to be on the melee key. This change is one of exactly 3 beneficial outcomes of the entire update (the others being that polearms can finally move freely while attacking and that we finally don't get the simaris scanner kicked out of our hands after meleeing).
See, what you are trying to do is exactly what this update was largely meant to counter. Flailing of range-modded melee weapons erasing the map. But DE took the middle route and tried to cater to both sides to avoid angering people who wanted to keep using the old abusive strategies and now no one is pleased.
However, I don't expect DE to actually risk generating the ire from the substantial portion of the playerbase that wants melee spam to be a catch-all universal key solution to every "challenge" the game poses. That's why I suggest the option to bind them (at our own discretion) to the same thing as a compromise, as you observe and supported. I still think doing so is the no-backbone "easy way out" for DE that leaves new players hanging out to dry, though. New players DESERVE an intuitive melee system that teaches you how to do finishers by allowing you to discover them when you do them by accident - not requiring people to know in advance exactly what conditions trigger finishers, what key to press to do so, and then to execute the finishers.
Moreover, if I want to play a warframe like Valkyr or Gara, I want fluid gameplay that doesn't break as I switch from mowing down hordes with quick melees to staggering a Heavy Gunner or blinding an unlucky target and performing a finisher. Having to switch keys makes the combat choppy and unsatisfying and I've been feeling the shift sense launch. It also just leaves you wide open if the finisher doesn't execute. People will be less likely to discover the fun of playing warframes like these if they have to rebind their keys just to create these experiences. Moving melee and finishers to separate keys by default - even if the option to make them the same exists (which it still doesn't right now) - closes so many doors for new players rather than leaving them open. I'd much rather the melee system disappoint people using range cheese for maximum clearing efficiency rather than new players trying to find fun warframes and mechanics for the first time if someone has to be disappointed, and someone is going to be.
That is why I am still opposed to your stance despite hearing it (and having been aware of it from before), and must still insist the optimal solution is a reversion to Melee key for finishers by default. If DE is concerned enough about the part of the playerbase you represent, though, the option for combining the keybindings needs to exist for those of us that do not play the way you do. To be honest, though, I am surprised your comment is the first to contradict mine, whereas a few others have shown support for me. I expected universal disapproval for my opinion because I thought the range-cheese meta was more popular and that those people would see my comment while coming to the thread to respond about the clunky stances that would be unappealing to them. We'll just have to see what DE thinks of all this, however.
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1 minute ago, AgasKahn said:
I share 100% what you said
3 minutes ago, AgasKahn said:PARAZON AND FINISHERS (all finishers)
First of all, hello!
Short version:
What I can highlight most is the bad interaction with the finisherslarge version:
with the addition of the parazon I have realized that the finishers are activated with the "x" key regardless of whether they are through the normal weapon, or the parazon, making that within a combo a finisher cannot be triggered through the key "e"
How to repair it?
1- possible solution
set the finishers to be activated automatically using the melee attack key2- possible solution
set icons above the enemies by visualizing for the player that they are available to finishers, separating the normal ones from those derived from the parazonwhat i think so the Parazon system? (melee only):
I personally do not like this system, the parazon is a modest but random element, and in a game of a lot of adrenaline I can not be watching when I press x to take out the buffos that give the mods of the parazon, besides they enemys die before I realize that I can finish themHow to repair it?
3- possible solution
set the finishers with a parazon, with a 100% chance of low health enemys, or vulnerable to finishers, separating the normal finishers with the key "e" and the parazon finishers with "x"sorry for my english, it's not my mother language
Your English is easy enough to follow. I'm glad you agree with my suggestions and I also agree wholeheartedly with your own comments that you made in your post.
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26 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:
3. Finishers
That one word shall actually tell all... Damage output at least still nice enough, BUT!!!
Now sleep is useless as you cannot use finisher to kill sleeping enemy (with dual swords at least), so stagger and knockdowns are only ways to make finisher work
AND!!!
New "slam attack" broke it all... I am ok with Lifted status on charged slam! Really!
But not when ANY in combo slam effect deals that status. it is obstructing, as you cannot finish lifted enemy. And it is hard to knockdown enemies with regular slam and guaranteed finish them (because warframe almost always starts combo, and if there is slam effect, then enemy gets lifted).
And i am not saying that this status is actually broken way to control single target enemy (unless it is controllable). Just attack speed with correct stance and enemy will be lifted FOREVER
PLEASE RETURN FINISHERS TO US!!!! WITHOUT THEM IT BECAME REALLY OBSTRUCTING TO CLEAR STEALTH WITH SLEEP AND FINISH... OR Dagger + finish OS combo
It took me two whole days of testing to figure out how, for the love of all things good and true, one is supposed to do finishers anymore. To do a Finisher, we are now expected to hit the Use key when the conditions are met (sleeping, blinded, or staggered).
This is really, really, REALLY bad - by my far my least favorite part of the update despite how much I already hated the change to Glaive throws and Gunblade firing now working from Heavy Attack. We now need to DELIBERATELY stop using melee attacks and press a different key on our keyboard entirely to do......... a melee finisher. Does this seem paradoxical to no one else? We have to stop meleeing to kill something with a melee?
The flow of finisher-opening warframes like Valkyr and Gara is completely lost with X to finish system (not talking about Parazon finishers, but ordinary melee). It's also just plain unwieldy on everything else that uses finisher-creating cc like Sleep, Blind, or Blast-staggers. I don't think DE realizes that it's not just as simple as "use the melee-opening effect and then hit finisher." A lot of enemies cheese their way through ignoring your first (or second, or third) casts of staggering crowd control by using scripted animations that make them crowd-control immune. And which enemies do this? Primarily Heavy Gunners with their fist slam and Arson Eximus units with their heat wave. You know which enemies are the VERY ONES you'd want to use a finisher on to kill more effectively? Yeah, the tough nuts to crack like Heavy Gunners and Eximus units. Under the old system, if they cheesed you by making themselves temporarily cc-immune with that long animation, your attempt to perform the finisher would result in at least doing melee attacks to whittle them down. In the new system, failing to open an enemy to a finisher results in you standing stupidly in front of them as they prepare to wind up their guns and riddle you with holes.
Likewise, it's going to be much harder for new players to learn what abilities open enemies to finishers when they have to KNOW IN ADVANCE the conditions that open an enemy to finishing to even THINK to use the finisher key, since it's a separate key from melee attacks.
What baffles me most of all is that people were asking for the option to rebind finishers to a different key from ordinary melee attacks so as not to be interrupted while playing spin-to-win slide-crit whips. DE finally acknowledges that meta is unhealthy for gameplay and reworks melee to discourage it... then implements as part of that same update a gameplay change that NO ONE WANTED except the slide-crit abusers? Seriously?
Return ordinary melee weapon finishers to E by default (melee key), not X by default (use key) as it has been changed to. This detriments everyone now that the slide-crit meta is gone. The only possible argument for finishers to be on that key was from slide-crit abuse. At the bare minimum, let us bind Use and Melee to the same key so we can "opt-in" at our own discretion to doing finishers with melee key. Currently, if I try to bind the alternative key for Use to the same as the primary key for melee, the game unbinds the melee key entirely, rendering me unable to melee at all.
EDIT: I also hate Lifted status personally, because of the reasons you've stated. It is counter-productive to killing enemies and I can't comprehend why DE thought it was a good idea when they already had to scrap the entirely of IPS 2.0 (which would have been Damage 3.0) just because of how negatively the feedback came to them about the plans for Impact procs which would *ragdoll* enemies rather than merely staggering - another counter-productive crowd control that makes it HARDER to line up headshots and kill just as Lifted pulls enemies into the sky where you can't melee them. It's the same mistake again, yet here we are.
That said, I don't expect that change to be removed. Lifted status seems like DE's big selling point of "rule of cool" in the new update, so I don't see them backing out on it. Thus I'm picking my battles. I would happily settle for Glaive throws reverted to held melee instead of heavy attack, and finishers back to the ordinary melee key - or at least the option to bind Use and Melee to the same key on our own to enable that functionality without DE having to change ANYTHING on their end other than removing a restriction in the Customize Keybindings menu.
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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:
Here's my feedback:
Overall, I like the changes to the melee system. I am loving my Nikanas now that they are actually hitting things from a distance, and will try scythes next. But Naramon is useless and dead to me now.
As someone complaining heavily about the way Glaives have been treated and griping seriously about this, I still have to take a moment to tell you that you're going to love Scythes. I was astonished at the way Hate and Reaper Prime just chew through Level 100 Heavy Gunners within only a couple hits and the animations are now extremely fluid and mobile unlike the formerly unwieldy animations. Scythes are a huge win for me. Also tried Nikanas, also liked their animations. Having the long sweep from Blind Justice on the gap closer so that it can be used on-demand is beautiful.
I echo your thoughts on Naramon, and have nothing else to add.
Speaking of maintaining combos, that's just another thing that feels awful about Glaives as I could have complained about in my earlier post. Putting the throw mechanic on the Heavy Attack key now strongly incentivizes players NOT to throw except to execute a target after building up a high combo multiplier, instead encouraging us to just spam faster melee attacks at point-blank to build up the multiplier and then finally throw. As someone else said in reply to me, there should never be a case where players are incentivized to AVOID using the primary mechanic that defines a weapon class, and Glaives are now in that position because of the Heavy Attack binding for the throw. The charge attack "hold to throw" (or fire for gunblades) really needs to be returned to these melees with alternate attack styles.
Also saw someone mentioning this being unwieldy with their Zenistar disc deployment and that makes sense to me, too, based on my experience. Thus, lumping that into this category of melee weapons that need their charge attack returned (though only for the sake of throwing/shooting/deploying) seems fair to me.
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12 hours ago, Vesciroth said:
Yup, it seems like DE was so focused on getting rid of charge attacks because nobody used them on most melee weapons that they unfortunately forgot about the weapons which relied entirely on charged attacks as their normal attacks, such as glaives and gunblades. Using the default feature of a glaive or a gunblade, i.e. throwing or shooting, should not be primarily locked to the heavy attack feature, especially since heavy attacks now eat all your combo stacks. The update has made it both uncomfortable and unrewarding to use glaives or gunblades for the things that makes them unique, which are their throwing or shooting mechanics. For higher level enemies (not crazy endurance run enemies, you will experience this even at levels below 100), I am incentivized to not throw my glaive or shoot my gunblade, because that will eat my entire combo stack, which I need to be able to kill the remaining enemies, and the single heavy attack simply won't kill enough enemies in a single hit to justify using it. We should never be incentivized to not use the primary feature of a weapon.
In keeping with what I have said earlier, we should be able to smoothly and repeatedly aim and shoot gunblades/throw glaives both on the run and standing still, like we were able to before the update, and this should not be a feature locked behind eating you entire combo stack. These shooting or throwing options don't need to have the same 3x damage multiplier the old charge attack had, given the increase to base damage and combo counter building, but they do need to be as comfortable as before and not consume your entire combo counter.
The mechanics of the old charged attack system, while bad and unwieldy for other melee weapons, were perfect for glaives and gunblades. And that makes perfect sense because, if I recall correctly, when the glaive was first released it was the only weapon with a charged attack, because it was the only melee weapon at the time that a charged attack mechanically made sense on. Other melee weapons don't need default charged attack mechanics for normal use, but glaives and gunblades have always needed them
Heavy attacks for these weapons can have bonuses like greater damage or (what I'd be more interested to see) different functionality, like gunblade heavy attacks firing an aoe knockdown/knockback projectile or glaive heavy attacks applying a guaranteed slash proc (these are just possible examples), but what they can't be is the only way to use the weapons for the reasons we love them, the reasons we've been using them for years, which are their old default shooting/throwing mechanics.
I'm very glad to see I'm not screaming into the Void and that other players are noticing and echoing my concerns. Gunblades were always of less interest to me (I mostly just used Redeemer Prime for Profit Taker to cover extra elements, using the Bullet Dance reverse walk combo) so I hadn't gotten to them yet in my extensive melee weapons test that began yesterday (I own about half of the melee weapons in the game I believe as a MR27 player that obsessively buys inventory slots to hoard a comprehensive collection of just about anything I don't hate). That said, I was already worried about their usability going down since I know things like the reverse-walk combo have no doubt been reworked or removed and now I see that I was correct to believe this would be the case. This is very unfortunate.
Heavy attacks are still super "meh" to me (much like old charge attacks) outside of insanely broken synergies like my Fragor Prime that has a +Initial Combo stat from a riven after this overhaul resulting in spammable 3x multiplied heavy attacks that oneshot Heavy Gunners well over Level 100 in a broad sweeping arc that hits everything in 180 degrees in front of you. That said, it's still better than old charge attacks for normal weapons, so I'm not clamoring for "bring back charge attacks!" I just want Glaives, and Gunblades too it seems, to have the old charge-attack style attack so that they can work properly again rather than requiring full melee mode (or dual-wielding with pistols in the case of Glaives) simply to be able to throw/shoot on demand. This is an integral part of their identity and made them unique and allowed skill expression by aiming the throws and shots for a weapon class that normally devolves down to mashing a single key while running through missions.
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The below "complaint" is pretty minor but I want it on the record. Ignore if you want:
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I have one overarching gripe that after doing nothing for the last couple hours (possible longer) except Simulacrum testing melee performance (yes, their AI is on before anyone says anything about stealth multipliers) which is that it feels like there is absolutely no real room for skill expression. I know this sounds counter to what DE intended - and it is - but it's true. DE succeeded in raising the skill floor (slide-crit spamming through missions just isn't going to cut it in high levels anymore), but they also significantly lowered the skill ceiling by making it so you can mash the melee key while doing whatever you were already doing (running, blocking, or both) and you'll just automatically wallop the enemies with a ton of effects that cause them to get erased within seconds. As long as you engage content with more than just a macro on your mouse button, you're already performing as well as you ever will. The only thing that *vaguely* feels like skill is gauging the distance right on the Block+Forward gap-closer to make the most use out of it, and even that is "meh" as far as skill expression goes.
That said, I don't see a way around this without just full reverting to the previous system, and that's neither realistic, fair to the devs, nor even the best idea (considering the death of slide crit meta and other positives make this an overall better system. Thus, I want the above gripe to be taken only with a grain of salt: I'm putting it out there for the record and for DE to consider, but it's probably just a necessary sacrifice we're going to have to make.
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On to matters of greater concern, now.
Glaives.
Oh, dear heavens, what has happened here? Someone got the bright idea to make the new Heavy Attack key into the Glaive Throw.
No, no, no, no, just no. This was a horrible idea. It is no longer possible while wielding a primary weapon to immediately charge and throw your glaive. You have to do a "normal" melee strike first to enter melee stance, and then heavy attack. Simply hitting heavy attack doesn't work because it's the same key as alternate fire and the game doesn't recognize that as a heavy attack command while primary weapons are equipped (it thinks the attack is alternate fire for the weapon, regardless of whether the primary even has an alternate fire). Worse, the first melee attack in the ordinary combo roots you in place. Thus, in order to throw your glaive with a primary or akimbo secondary, you must stab the air with your glaive pointlessly, rooting yourself in the open to get shot to pieces, and only then heavy attack.
As if this isn't bad enough, the Heavy Attack to throw the glaive now roots you in place at the end of the swing, which was previously not present. Since you are often in the open when throwing glaives (since you need a line of sight), you are now rooting yourself twice in a row (once to swap to melee by slashing the air in front of you, a second time to actually Heavy Attack) in a wide open area surrounded by lines of sight. If you're not playing a tank, you're dead at this point in any content of higher levels.
What happened to the whole "gun and blade" concept that glaives executed so magnificently by letting you seamlessly strike with both gun and blade regardless of whether close or far from opponents?
Dual-wielding glaives with ordinary pistols is completely unchanged from before, which just adds to the confusion. Now, in order to get the much better glaive throwing mechanic of "hold melee to throw," you must use a one-handed pistol and keep it out all the time just to get the glaive to work as glaives always should. For anyone who has not been playing since before this change, this is only going to add to the confusion by adding a completely different set of mechanics and rules to the system if you have a particular weapon/melee combination. In other news, the proc-applying pistol with Condition Overload glaive strategy is now more insane than ever with +120% per status effect, so I guess that tiny bit is a plus. Then again, the strategy only works and isn't horribly unwieldy specifically because dual-wielding glaive throws haven't changed so you can actually take advantage of the increased synergy instead of being forced to root yourself twice just trying to throw your weapon.
I know why DE left this in. It's because the dual-wielding is completely incompatible with the idea of Heavy Attack governing glaive throws, since the heavy attack key is again preoccupied (by the alternate fire of the secondary weapon). This shows just how flawed the whole idea is. This really needs to be reverted ASAP, because my favorite class of melee weapons feels like it got thrown into a dumpster fire in a patch that is otherwise just massively buffing everything across the board for the most part.
TL;DR - Actually using glaives as throwing weapons instead of slashing wildly with them is now super broken and sufficiently unwieldy that it's just going to get us killed in high level content. Revert their throw mechanic back to "Hold to throw." If you want, leave in the Heavy Attack key as an alternate way to 'auto-charge' a throw (only needing to tap it rather than hold it), but return to us the ability to hold the key down to make the throw occur. Several interactions, like primary-to-glaive-throw swaps are just completely broken in this iteration and it's killing the entire fun of using glaives. This is like the removal of manual blocking all over again. Please don't wait as long this time to bring it back or you're going to drive me positively batty.
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One final thing, but much shorter. Trying to use the blind mechanic with Vaykor Sydon is an exceptionally good way to get yourself killed now. The fact it is bound to the heavy attack key, and the heavy attack has a very long wind-up animation, means that if you misread the stack counter or don't have time to look and just try to blind, you end up leaving yourself sitting in the midst of a large group of enemies you were trying to blind, but now rooted in place and performing a slow animation that leaves you wide open. So you just die.
Not sure what to do about that, but a simple solution would be for hitting Heavy Attack on Vaykor Sydon specifically to not register if you are holding down block and don't have full charges? I just want to see something done about it. The weapon's unique mechanic is meant to divert fire from you (while setting up enemies for the unaware damage multiplier), so having any misstep result in leaving you wide-open to enemy fire just feels counter-intuitive.
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I can confirm that I am experiencing this with the Twin Kavats jets as well.
Seems universal to all of them - they are using default colors for everything which is pretty obnoxious. Looking forward to a fix.
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37 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:
There is a third option. DE could pull a Euphona Prime and create a brand new weapon that doesn't have a non-Prime variant like they did with the Banshee Prime Access.
But I still think it will be the Daikyu Prime as it's the only Tenno bow left and it fits her as well as being long overdue.
Indeed, I had forgotten to consider this option, but it's up there, too. Unlikely, given the rarity of the events (Dakra Prime with Mag Prime, repurposed from what was going to be a Cronus Prime as I understand it, and only once ever again with Euphona Prime and Banshee Prime), but possible!
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12 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:
[...]
PS. Zhuge Prime actually silent. Atleast, Ivara's Prowl isn't break when firing the bolt...
IIIIIINNNNTTTEEERREEESSTTTTIIIINNNGGGG...
I just finished building it, but haven't claimed it from the foundry yet, disappointed in the Alarming firing sound enough my reaction to it was mostly -_-
I'm going to Simulacrum test it and see if it triggers enemy awareness states. It might be one of these weird cases like gunblades, which are part of a weapon category that is associated with being "silent" so they don't break Prowl... but still trigger enemy awareness because they ARE Alarming. If it at least doesn't break Prowl... hm... might be worth some use anyway, since in most public matches enemy awareness is already triggered by allies anyway...
Thanks for this tidbit.
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2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:
That was rather unexpected when DE had announced it. Them having done that though kinda reinforced the idea that Daikyu Prime would be finally released with Ivara Prime.
But honestly I think DE is just having a hard time trying to figure out the stats for a Daikyu Prime. I say this because the only thing the Daikyu really needs is more crit chance and it would easily shoot to top bow. That would give it both high status and high crit making it a stupid damage hybrid weapon. And that's without a riven.
Again I'm not exactly counting the Lenz as that's pretty much in a class by itself especially since its the only non-silent "bow" and being more of a grenade launcher type. 😀
Indeed, DE seems to have a problem these days with trying to make everything a crit weapon, ESPECIALLY enhanced versions (Prime, Vandal, Wraith, Prisma). There are precious few recent exceptions - Glaxion Vandal comes to mind which has almost the same stats (including awful low crit) as the base but is massively more powerful because of an AoE that spreads damage and status on any point the beam impacts (it can easily fully armor strip and wipe squads in almost no time with a Corrosive build).
I have a good feeling Ivara may be primed with Daikyu as well, which should be a couple prime accesses off based on the release schedule (you never know though, especially with how Atlas just got shafted). Daikyu and Cernos Prime are my favorite bows and it would be an exciting time (even if my Daikyu riven disposition is going to tank - but that was mostly to counterbalance the changes during that primary weapon stat overhaul a while back where they inexplicably nerfed Daikyu base damage heavily and hence one-shotting power and provided unilateral buffs to things like Dread and Rakta Cernos, so I'll have gotten my money's worth from buying it off someone). However, DE needs to approach this carefully if they don't want to create a massive meta shift in bows. If they just slap crit on it, as you've pointed out... Things could get out of hand quickly. And no gimmicks readily come to mind that would be suitable for Daikyu Prime, so that's a hard sell, too. What to do?
If DE remains perplexed about this as they very well might, I would hope to see Ivara come out with Attica Prime, since Rubico Prime and Zhuge Prime have now been stolen off the list by other primes in the time since this thread began with speculation. Just... for the love of all things good and true... Attica Prime better be silent. Making Zhuge Prime alarming was a massive slap in the face for the all the people waiting for primed crossbows, since an innately silent weapon (saves the mod slot for warframes like Ivara that would often silence other weapons) is one of the key selling points of crossbows.
Bows, crossbows, and snipers are what come to mind when I think of Ivara Prime. Baza Prime is the only fringe case that I think would still make sense. All snipers have been used up, Daikyu is the only remaining Tenno faction bow, and Attica Prime is the only remaining Tenno faction crossbow. Of course, this is all assuming DE actually releases the prime access in a way that complements the warframe thematic... which we have all been assuming. I think there is a good chance they will, but we can't be certain. They might just come out of left field and release something silly.
Her release secondary, Talons Prime, could still be on the table.
I also do actually really like the idea of a Veldt Prime here that came up. Veldt I have found quite unimpressive in its release state, so I feel it deserves a second chance to prove itself with an early prime. If they gave it Silent firing as a gimmick (since the base is Alarming, as with all guns outside Baza) alongside buffed stats, it could make a very strong thematic complement to Ivara since it really does have that hunting rifle look to it. "Sniper lite" someone called the theoretical Veldt Prime if it went down a path that plays up its unique scoping - this would allow it to slide its way into that "sniper" category that fits Ivara without actually being one of the snipers since they're all gone now.
All we can do is wait and see. The pool of thematically logical possibilities certainly has narrowed heavily since this discussion opened months back.
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21 hours ago, MagPrime said:
She wasn't supposed to be Artemis. Her initial design was based on a tree frog, not Artemis or anything close to that particular pantheon.
And I can tell you that when it came time to vote on her name in DC, the majority of the members were vehemently against "Artemis" as being any part of her overall theme.
Regardless of what you believe, Artemis has always been a part of her theme.
It is probably more strongly a part of her theme in this skin than in the original, actually.
The problem is more that the artist abandoned ALL of the rest of her theme in order to accentuate the Artemis angle to the maximum degree, but oddly decided to do it through a guard to one of her temples.
Stag horns on the helmet are a dead giveaway, as the stag was a symbol of Artemis. This exists only on the new deluxe, not on the original.
The artist IS trying to do an Artemis theme. There's just no way around that.
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10 hours ago, Aeon94 said:
I like the deluxe, gives me warrior-huntress vibe and helmet is based on deers which is symbol of Artemis ( Goddess of Hunt ). There are also some quite nice features like hip-quiver, arbalet and dagger on lower right leg ( you can see it when you look closely ).
She became a medium to heavy armored battlefield archer instead of forest prowler and it caught my interest.
OP;
Calling it horrible and telling that to never add it into game is just disrespectful.
Artist who designed this deluxe also designed Ivara herself too, he knows his creation better than you and this is the direction he wanted his baby to take. He can make some alterations with feedback but don't expect it to be scrapped.
The references are all too vague and hard to pick up. You say yourself just how closely you have to look just to see them. If these were properly played up, I would have few qualms, if any. Even after you state it though, I can't tell that thing on her hip is a quiver - and I know the ones you mean. I just have to assume you are right because nothing else makes even a vague amount of sense. It took other people explaining the helmet had antlers before I could see them at all despite considering Greek mythology a strong point of mine, with Artemisian iconography being a personal favorite. I know my Artemis symbols, know of the stag iconography - still couldn't see it without aid. The skin just looks bland with some accessories tacked on to try and vaguely indicate "well it's still Artemis kinda, if you think about it enough." This really is lackluster for a warframe whose base skin powerfully blends multiple themes effectively, and the deluxe skin struggles to even implement a single one of the few themes on the base skin.
Definitely not a fan of these "cosplay" skins as I call them where it looks like one warframe is trying to cosplay another - a heavy battlefield armored unit strongly fits the description of several other warframes in the game (even if not archers) which is what's leading a lot of people to draw comparisons with other warframes that it "looks more like" (and it does). We have the same issue with Ember Vermillion doing a phoenix theme when birds are Zephyr's theme - making it feel doubly mocking. The Ember deluxe skin feels terrible for Ember users, and draws light to just how much DE has shoved Zephyr aside as if she is to be forgotten entirely, giving a deluxe skin more fitting for her to another warframe while shelving plans for her deluxe into the indefinite future. These skins are never received well and I really wish DE would stop with the thematic overlap to other warframes.
I've said before and I'll say again that deluxe skins deserve leeway to reimagine warframes, but these thematic overlaps and extremely loose and vague references are not the way to do it. If the original artist wanted to double down on the Artemis take and shove all the other themes he blended into the original Ivara (tree frogs and sneaky forest ranger tropes), then I believe he has license to do so. But this feels like a really feeble attempt at even capturing that single theme. He did a stronger job capturing the various themes even when he had MULTIPLE in the original skin! For DE to expect platinum for this - for the artist to personally request that he be able to make this skin and then deliver this "mediocre-at-best" delivery - just doesn't cut it for me at all.
RE: your opinion on the OP.
I get you, but with how far this skin strays far and wide from anything recognizable as Artemis, or Ivara, or.... just anything remotely expected... the artist is going to have to be responsible for pulling such a betrayal of a concept he brought to life for us. I would be more understanding if this was made by someone else (though no less disappointed and heartbroken). For this to be from the original artist, who brought us something so far superior with the original product and then personally requested to make this, with no excuses since he MADE the original and should know it best? It feels like a betrayal of the highest type, and people will be angry even if they shouldn't say things like this. You're right, yes, but this is inevitable given the circumstances and the artist needs to face this sort of criticism or we will get betrayals of concept like this again, more heartbreak, and more outrage.
Personally, I have not been commenting on any of these threads in the expectation anything will change at all. It's MUCH too late. What was revealed to us looks like a final render. There is no way that is going back into planning stages - even for small changes (and small changes wouldn't even be enough). DE and the artist are going to be way too committed just because of the time and money invested in getting it this far, even if there wasn't the fact this is going to be a highly emotional skin for the artist who is going to no doubt be recalcitrant about keeping even this botched product because of his personal connection to Ivara and resultant belief he knows best. I have provided suggestions about what could be changed on one thread (can't remember if it was this one or another) but I do not expect them to be pursued, and that is not the reason I left them. The hope is more that the artist might see what could have been an acceptable middle ground that would not have created such a hostile community reaction while pursuing his artistic goals, because that's all I can do at this point. If I'm going to have to suffer such heartbreak as knowing the warframe I've committed myself to so strongly is never getting a proper deluxe skin, than at least I have to feel my emotional distress is serving some greater cause. Helping the artist grow and create products that avoid this reaction seems to be the only cause I can realistically commit that distress toward, so that's all I'm trying for at this point.
I don't realistically expect that to happen, either. The artist is probably going to be blind to criticism on this one because it's so personal, and the odds they see my comments in the first place are low. But I consider the odds of anything changing to be effectively zip, nil, zero, and zilch. Better to at least feel there's a small chance something comes out of this than nothing at all, I guess, but I'm going to be devastated by this for a long time.
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On 2019-07-09 at 12:36 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:
It has always been my perspective that deluxe skins are the only chance people get to take actual liberties with design. They get to take bigger risks. Where as Tennogen seem pretty restrictive. Meant to build upon the current base but give it a slight theme. And primes take the current base/theme and crank it up to 11. For the most part this is how things have been minus things like volt/octavia deluxe.
The creator of this deluxe is the same person who created Ivara. They stated in a twitter post that this skin is meant to contrast her current look. The current look being described as frog princess hunter. The deluxe skin being described as a forrest guardian archer with some elvish influence. So instead of having an organic, stealthy, cloth like look we're getting an armored archer warrior type look that has some feelings of nobility/protector vibes.
Ivara already has 3 tennogen skins with 2 alt hats that already play off of her base/theme being a hunter of sorts. It makes sense that they're not continuing that route. Personally there is a lot I like about this skin. I like the face plate looking hollow with glowing eyes making it feel like it's some possessed armor. I like the details with her hands. Most warframe hands look like velvet/rubber skin extensions of the main suit. These look like actual mesh hands with metallics on the digits. I like the layered armor effect with the open tummy slot that has the crest towards the top. I like how it looks like her upper back has a gem in it. etc. I am worried about the two tone decision as it made fashioning things like equinox default rather difficult.
I think the biggest "sin" from this skin is simply that she wasn't recognizable as Ivara. Sure she's got a knife, cross bow, arrows, and a quiver. But those feel like things included to tell us that it's ivara. Rather than us just seeing Ivara. Even deluxe's that take a pretty big departure from the base or theme like Frost's Harka skin still manage to make you recognize the frame. Ivara's deluxe just doesn't do that. Granted I didn't think of any particular frame when I first saw it. But still. I think it does work for her. Though I am reserving final judgement of it until I can color it.
For those expecting to see a more "high detailed" look on her base or theme you have her prime to look forward to later this year. And the door is open for multiple deluxe skins now as Nova and ash are about to get their second one's.
But this is the thing: I disagree - strongly - that the Tennogen skins play up to Ivara's theme. They more closely resemble her model but her themes? Not at all. They abandon them and steer far away... as I personally think Tennogen is inclined to do, made by external sources.
DE I expect to show more restraint, and better reference the original themes. I believe deluxe skins, since they can change the model, should be given leeway to reinterpret the warframe as a new delivery on the same themes. But this does not deliver on Ivara's themes. It tries to. But it is shocking to me that the original artist, who so powerfully blended three themes (Artemis, ranger tropes, and organic treefrog appearances) could so wildly divert into an unrecognizable direction and consider it a simple reinterpretation of "his baby."
The helmet, though it fails and looks like a knock-off Khora helmet, is trying to give the impression of a stag - one of Artemis' symbols. The artist claimed she was now supposed to look like a temple guard - so referencing the worship of Artemis. But now she has descended from being a goddess, to now being the mere protector of the shrine to the same goddesses. I'm even flexible on my interpretation of the ranger tropes, allowing more warrior-themed aesthetic options, so long as they deliver on the concept of a traveling warrior (ultimately, what the word "ranger" refers to). But this doesn't even play off of those takes. This doesn't even make an attempt to reference the ranger tropes or treefrog look, or any of Ivara's other signature aesthetics - the skirt or the single ocular sensor in the middle of her brooding, hoodlike helmet.
If the artist wanted to do a temple guard take successfully, we should have seen a heavy armored reinterpretation of her skirt, with actual model material instead of just emissive glowing lights. It could have given the impression of Greek pteruges to properly reference the Ancient Greek origin of Artemis that he wanted with this temple guardian look. At least then we could have visually recognized Ivara. Secondly, he should have extended the antlers on the helmet SIGNIFICANTLY. Three, four, even five times as long. I could not tell it was even supposed to be stag horns until it was pointed out to me, and I know my Artemis. Make them large and prominent to powerfully symbolize this cervid interpretation of Ivara (that more heavily plays toward the Artemis part of her theme), as opposed to the amphibian one of the original.
As it is, it makes a few bland and easily ignorable references to Artemis, then goes with noble warrior tropes slathered heavily over the rest (hence why people are seeing Gara in it, who is infused with that theme) and then calls it a day. It is devastating to me that the original artist, who did such a stellar job on the original base skin, delivered such a lackluster interpretation.
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14 minutes ago, MagPrime said:
Oof, this hits so hard actually. Firstly, to hear him downplay his original design as not badass and instead "adorable space frog princess" despite her rippling musculature seen from behind and unorthodox hood-like helmet design that felt much more brooding than other female warframe helmets. Secondly, to hear his actual interpretation that she's now a temple guard.
She was supposed to be Artemis? Not a bored temple guard dumped in front of an Artemisian temple and forced to wear a stag headdress to symbolize the goddess whose shrine she was protecting? Kind of a downgrade, isn't it, to go from a goddess..... to a temple guard protecting the shrine of the same goddess.
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I'd like to know the origin of this skin before I sign.
On one level, I want anything done with DE's professional touch that they've brought to make so many wonderful deluxe skins to give my favorite warframe an appropriate deluxe skin instead of... that nightmarish reveal. On another level, I need to know this artwork was internal to DE. If this isn't DE's concept, it'd be downright art theft for them to build a model from an outsider's fan concept. Pardon me if I'm supposed to recognize the artist name. I'm afraid I don't.
If it's internal to DE, as another proposed skin by another artist who was also prompted to provide Ivara deluxe concepts despite the personal request of the original creator to make this skin, then I must sign the petition. It is a superior delivery, which I find regrettable to admit with the person who brought us Ivara's incredible design having personally requested to make a skin I would be downplaying, requesting that a colleague's be put in as a substitute.
But I can't sign if its external to DE, I'm just sorry.
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As an Ivara main, this deluxe skin is positively heartbreaking. I withheld buying Tennogen for Ivara for ages because the Tennogen artists did not play into Ivara's themes: Artemis, ranger tropes, and organic treefrog influences. At last I bought the Astrea skin because of the skirt emissives and close match to the original look, but I only use it with the default helmet. Even NOW, I still take to reverting to the base skin (which I have with my original color patterns on a few cosmetic loadouts - and I have more than one Ivara) because it is so powerful and compelling as an aesthetic for me, which the Tennogen designers have never captured.
The deluxe, finally on the table, should have been a godsend. Even more so with the ORIGINAL CONCEPT ARTIST working on it at personal request. This was at last perfect.
Except... he put out THIS?!?!? What is this? This doesn't resemble Ivara in any way. It looks like a new warframe, and in several ways even resembles different existing warframes (the helmet looks plucked off of Khora). Her proportions are all out of whack. Ivara was never the most feminine of female warframes from in front, which I liked perfectly well, but this design looks downright masculine at times. The shoulders are padded outward to be even wider than her hips (which have always been wide), creating a very boxy and rectangular profile befitting a man.
But let's forget that and get right down to the meat - Ivara's core thematic elements. Treefrog, ranger, Artemis. We lose the illusion of her wearing a hood (ranger trope) that the default has. We lose the leafy skirt that looks like organic mimicry (treefrogs) or a wrap as Artemis is sometimes protrayed in Greek bas-reliefs (Artemis). We lose the mottled skin patterning (treefrog). We even lose thematic elements that were unique to Ivara that didn't even have to do with her special themes, like the single ocular sensor being replaced with a generic Khora-like helmet that gives an impression of two eyes.
This design is incredibly bland and betrays everything that made Ivara who she was as a design without playing into her themes in any new ways. She feels awkward and masculine in silhouette. It's genuinely heartbreaking for someone that had been so strongly committed to Ivara's original design and themes that I even eschew Tennogen to play using the concept artist's original design, to now see that design completely tossed aside and abandoned by the original artist himself, at his own request. This is devastating for me.
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EDIT: With additional scrutiny and browsing the comments (I had read most before posting, but missed a key response) I have finally puzzled out the artist intention. The helmet - though I'm sorry, it fails catastrophically at this - is trying to give the impression of an antlered deer. That is to say, a stag. Stags, for any who do not know, were a symbol of Artemis. Thus, I at last see where the artist went for a reference to the original themes and tried to imagine them in a new way. But to earn my approval (even if not my purchase most likely as I do not like this direction), it would need to succeed as a cervid interpretation of Ivara. This does not succeed - it does not even come close. It looks like a masculine interpretation of Khora. I need something far more evocative of Ivara in some form to be able to recognize the validity of this different take on an Artemis-themed warframe.
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Used Hildryn for today's Uranus Shotgun Only Exterminate Sortie stage, hoping to use Balefire Charger primarily instead of worrying about the weapon restriction. Activated it like normal, but as soon as I got to a submersible section, everything went wrong.
By entering the water with Balefire Charger active and over-riding my weapons, the game became confused and made me fully Unarmed in submersible archwing mode. I could see my melee and archgun strapped to the wings as they are when holstered, but could not use either and my weapon read as Unarmed. This persisted until I left submersible mode. That was, however, not even remotely close to the end of issues.
Now that I was leaving archwing mode with Balefire "active" as far as the game seemed to be concerned, it wouldn't allow me to reactivate Balefire Charger, forcing me to use only the shotgun through the rest of the mission. Hildryn's other abilities could be cast fine, but Balefire was locked out with the message "Ability Use Prevented" just as when in a Nullifier field or affected by Comba or Scrambus locking out an ability. This persisted until mission completion.
As I've insinuated, I believe that since I never deactivated Balefire Charger, the game believed it to still be "active," thus it was trying to override my arch-weapons with the exalted weapon. However, sine the archwing does not have the exalted weapon, it just forced me into an Unarmed state. When I left, it once again still considered the ability active and therefore could not be reactivated. That is my understanding of what went wrong with the code here.
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8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:
I like to refer to this as "balance of extremes." It involves creating a thing - a Warframe, a gun, an ability - which is objectively terrible to the point of nobody using it... Except one single aspect which is supposed to make it all worth it. Overwatch had Roadhog who was everywhere and extremely popular... Up until they nerfed his Hook one-shot combo, and he became pointless until a massive amount of rebalancing. Payday 2 had the original Minigun which was very powerful in theory but slowed you down, had no ammo pick-up, was hilariously inaccurate and generally had no real selling points. Consequently, few people used it. Even as far back as City of Heroes you had Instant Healing, which made Regeneration overpowered... Until it was redesigned and all of a sudden Regen was "awful."
In my experience, balance of extremes never works, or at least doesn't work well. It creates niche items which are hard to balance and constantly teeter-totter between "too powerful" and "too weak." Trying to fix an underperforming Warframe or Cat by throwing in a single out-of-context highly desirable ability is the wrong way to go about it. You still have a Warframe people don't want to play, except now they feel pressured into playing it because of that one thing. As I said, I'm fine with making loot-boosting abilities mutually exclusive, but this has to come with additional changes beyond itself. That's the problem with balance of extremes.
That's a good way of putting it. I'm part of the crowd that dislikes the entire concept of loot-enhancement existing and factoring into the balance equation (yes, I understand energy and health orbs are part of loot enhancement - I am an Ivara main! - but I wish it stopped there instead of extending to resources), but which accept this is a looter shooter so that sort of stuff is going to exist. But if it's going to exist, it can't be this extreme. Like you've said, this creates an extremely niche identity based entirely around a single function. Niche warframes, weapons, and pets are fine, of course - but when the niche application is "it's compatible with a single particular mod" or "you spam one ability and ignore the rest of the kit," then you have a broken design that is unappealing to play and justified exclusively by something that can wildly swing between overpowering and useless.
My distaste for looting abilities is best summed up with this other post:
On 2019-05-27 at 4:01 AM, Xzorn said:I personally don't think loot based abilities should have been a thing in the first place.
We're not actually gaining anything globally by their existence. DE considers them when they assign drop chances and you might have noticed most of the new high end drops cannot be affected by loot abilities nor Vacuum. It would be better to replace them with something and normalize drop rates so that these farming metas have a more broad spectrum. Instead of mandatory bring X-Y-Z +%Loot frame it becomes more about what group comp will maximize performance for the task at hand.
If DE is already making looting abilities non-functional on important things, and now nerfing looting abilities as a whole.... why have they been so gung-ho about adding them? Why can't ordinary resource costs be rebalanced around an inability to boost drops? This is what we should really be seeing, and looting abilities should be replaced with +% chance of health orb drops (for Nekros and such) or +% chance to steal energy orbs (for things like Ivara).
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On 2019-05-24 at 12:21 PM, DrBorris said:
It feels like an over-correction. DE saw people stacking like 8 loot abilities on a single enemy and it was broken. There is a reasonable line and people past it. Rather than just cap off the extreme fringe farming strategy that most people did not even know about, they swung so wide they hit a big chunk of the loot farming meta.
[...]
I agree with what you're saying but I want to expand upon your sentence at the beginning here with my own thoughts. All of what follows is meant as feedback toward DE and not directed at you - just quoting you for reference on that first sentence you wrote. I agree with your proposal that splitting the loot system into several "bonus drop checks" instead of simply "Ivara and then everyone else is one, exclusive check" might be a way to solve the underlying issue, but I want to segue into a deep concern of mine about the underlying philosophy here.
Here's the thing though about "people stacking 8 loot abilities" - DE just released two major game-changers in the looting meta in sync: Khora augment and Chesa (reworked precept). That was the final push that took things over the edge: and it was two recent additions to the looting meta that DE themselves put out there as incredibly boring recycled abilities (Khora augment being a weaker Pilfering Swarm and Chesa precept rework being a recycled Desecrate).
DE could have given us something new and exciting with this augment and precept; instead they gave us two more recycled and very boring abilities. Then, as soon as people used them, DE gets flustered and decided to nuke the entire looting meta - literally remove the entire concept of loot stacking.
Meanwhile in a corner wearing dunce caps, Nekros and Hydroid have had exceptionally lackluster kits since their releases (which just about go back to the dawn of time) that have never been addressed - "well they can loot and who else can do that?" as the only justification. It gave them a niche role (since their overall design was unimpressive to most players including myself), and now that role has just been imploded.
What we're looking at is a core issue in DE's mentality in regards to looting and "unpopular" warframes/pets. A warframe is unpopular (Hydroid)? Just give it the best looting power. A pet is also unpopular because its precept is bad and/or has been overwritten by a new mod (Chesa)? Just give it the best looting power. Etc. People need loot. They'll start using it - for loot if nothing else.
That's the mentality, and it doesn't fix the core issue - these things aren't fun or appealing to pick. Hydroid never became exciting. No one gets super proud of their Chesa and goes ham polarizing it with Forma unless they've just about polarized every other item they own. Looting power is just tossed on as a bandage on a flesh wound to "give them a place" and now DE is tearing the bandages off. Of course it's going to hurt when half the skin comes with it.
Chesa is now worse off than before - if you actually care about looting, you'll take Hydroid for the 100% drop rate and Chesa does nothing (at least it would pick stuff up between Defense waves before? ...which was borderline nothing, but at least SOMETHING until Fetch was introduced).
I'm getting distracted, but all of the above does have a bearing on the situation so I'm not deleting it. I will get back on track though. The point is this: if DE doesn't want people to stack looting, then they sure as heck better start coming up with better "identities" for warframes, ability augments, and pet precepts than "well it can loot hurr durr." That no longer helps anyone if the loot can't stack. AND they better change a lot of the existing ones. DE CREATED this many forms of loot multiplication in the game. If they didn't want that much potential to stack, they never should have made that many and instead should have come up with more compelling reasons to play the warframes and use the pet in question a long, long time ago. It's hypocritical they would release such boring, recycled content.... then nerf (that is not a fix!) as soon as people decided to stack it with the existing content (since all of this recycled content is nothing new, the only fresh application was to stack higher than ever before).
A separate issue not related to your post:
All of this is to say nothing of the fact resource values in this game are currently balanced around the formerly possible loot stacking - that now is not. That is going to massively increase the new player grind, which is something DE has said they are worried about being too large and that Nightwave was supposed to help fix (and it is a step in the right direction but with some unfortunate backfiring involved). I don't understand how they think they can do something like this and not harm new players trying to onboard. I'm utterly baffled DE can't see the long-reaching consequences of this change and why they would be so heavy-handed on the nerf when they've claimed to worry about things like new player onboarding.
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On 2019-05-10 at 4:55 PM, Tsudzurao said:
You're either a new player, a returning player or just a slow learner, because honestly, it was 100% obvious that DE would make Wolf ridiculously easy to farm in the last few days. I was personally expecting a craftable or buyable with ducats Wolf Beacon and was actually surprised that they didn't bring it with the last Baro.
Take this as a lesson for the future when playing Warframe: Never, ever farm stuff on day one, and if there's an set duration for the event, wait until at least 2/3 of the time is gone. Doing stuff rightaway is only for bragging rights. Cetus rare gems resources farming, Orb Vallis resource farming, K-drive standing, Vox standing, Wise Razor farming, Nightwave standing (For those who went for the fugitives)... Holy hell, the list never ends, and the only single case to this day where it didn't work like this was the Exploiter Orb, due to the Nova/Octavia EXPLOIT that was later fixed.
"Oh, it's just wasted content now": Quite the oposite, the content is about to be killed by DE and this is the way to make everyone experience fighting this guy. And talking about the prices is the dumbest thing ever; DE literally gave us a shop that uses ingame currency to sell us potatoes, which are otherwise only obtainable through the cash shop; If they aren't worrying about their own market, do you really think they will care about the player one? Player market is a gamble, sometimes you earn high, other's you'll just create false expectations: That's how it works both IRL and on games in general, and it isn't different on Warframe.Don't be like those kids who cried just because they kept holding their Saryn parts waiting for the prices to rise and in the got rekt by a simple anniversary event.
Glad to see someone understands.
There's a lot of things I've farmed semi-early because I didn't want to put them off indefinitely hoping for an easier farm later, only for them to drop not long thereafter. I've never complained. If every farm or item to collect was a brutal slog, new players would never be able to make meaningful progress with how much content has been added over time. By necessity, everything must become easier to unlock as time goes on or DE kills the future of their own game.
Buying early from other players on hard drops is like pre-ordering the collector's package of a AAA game release. You pay and arm and a leg for the prestige of having it before other people. You want that prestige? Then you pay for it, and understand that a lot of that money is "wasted" from a purely practical standpoint (for an intangible benefit - prestige). More frugal? Then show some patience.
Some people have serious misconceptions about this game - see below:
On 2019-05-10 at 4:30 PM, AwkwardLazarow said:My situation with the Wolf is that I spent 130p for the motor+blueprint, I did that yesterday and today hours before the event, I did this cause I though that once the nightwave was over he would be EVEN MORE RARE so I paniced and went to buy them thinking that in the last days the parts would be even more expensive similar to when items are about to enter the vault. [etc.]
This isn't the only person so utterly confused. I ran into people who thought it would disappear permanently and completely from the game, which is just... hard for me to process. Do those people not know how the mastery rank system works and how permanent item disappearances would create elitist ranks only veteran players can reach, stratifying the community? Do they not realize DE almost bungled themselves badly with the founder package of Excalibur Prime, Skana Prime, and Lato Prime since that was mastery no other player could get because of a promise made to founders of exclusivity? DE is not doing the whole exclusivity thing again - things always return, and tend to become easier to acquire when they do, rather than disappear. Look at all the tactical event rewards which you had to grind like nuts to get during the tactical event, but which Baro now sells for a pittance of ducats.
Watch trends. Learn and adapt to the game market. And don't get mad when you make a miscalculation or a bad gamble on the market forces. DE doesn't control that.
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I'm experiencing the same issue. I believe it occurred after I used the three Forma. Considering I think this might be the last week of nightwave, I reaaaally want to get my standing now (not just "wait and see what happens") so I have time to know what I will be able to afford from the Nightwave credit shop (based on how many more prestige tiers I get). I want to get another Orokin Catalyst from it before the event ends...
I am at 10,650 standing of 10,000 right now, before logging out. Based on what I see here, I'm assuming that as soon as I log out, I'll see it jump down to 7,650 standing of 10,000.
To the people asking about bounties, I have not done a single bounty of any sort (Plains or Orb Vallis) since this week of Nightwave began. That does not seem to be the source of the problem. As for those asking about internet connection, mine has been just fine, so I'm going to echo others in that this doesn't seem to be any sort of client-side issue.
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On 2019-04-28 at 2:50 PM, Avisira said:
I've made 3 different threads about this, which other users have copied into other threads. STILL NO RESPONSE FROM DE. several hot fixes later and nothing has changed.
Hi, this response was just made today by [DE] Megan on another thread that reported several of these issues in summary. You see, this is part of a larger issue affecting many warframes with a loss of emissives.
45 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:Greetings Fashionframers!
As some of you have accurately calculated, these issues are due to the recent roll-back of the Warframe Emissive Dual Energy Color changes.
Our next Mainline build (which we're actively working on) will bring a fix for these that's part of a larger shader change coming.
Apologies for the confusion in the meantime - we're on the case!!
Mainline updates are the big ones, so it might be awhile (because they are rolling it into a larger shader update, it seems) but we have an ETA and a response now, so we at least know what we are sitting tight waiting for. Hope this sets you to ease some as it did for me!
If anyone here is mainly just noticing this on Valkyr because they don't play many of the other warframes upon which it is visible, I just want to point out (if you are confused why this is taking so long) that this is in fact an over-arching issue with warframe emissives and not just touching up a couple lights on Valkyr, hence the reason a larger fix is needed to actually address the core problem and deal with all of it at once. That's my understanding at least, and if they are changing shaders soon the it does make sense to me to roll the fix into that update (lest the update break something again) so I see what DE is doing here now that we finally got a response.
Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread
in Weapons
Posted
Indeed, Viral is positively gamebreakingly overpowered in its current state. It was good before - to the point of being one of the most valuable status procs - but now it stacks up to obscene amounts of damage multiplication, works on all targets (since everything has "health" that must be burned through in the end).
It is important to note that most of elemental effects are now wonderful and would be worth building if Viral wasn't currently outshining everything so much it is derailing everything this patch comes so close to accomplishing.
What starts at the same amount of damage multiplication as before (200%, previously by halving enemy health) now SCALES beyond what was ALREADY one of the most useful status effects... and most of the others have been nerfed (rather than buffed). Viral stacks should range from 1.5x (an initial nerf) on first application to 2.5x on maximum stacks (a slight buff from previous state) rather than starting at 2x (previous norm) IMMEDIATELY and scaling up to a monstrous 4.5x (blasting Corrosive out of the water as sheer garbage by comparison with the cap that Corrosive now has at higher levels).
I tested my weapons in the Simulacrum against enemies of an appropriate level for ordinary endgame as we have received it (aka, Level 100 - since DE seemed to have espoused that as endgame with Sorties, Arbitrations, and Kuva Lich leveling) and Corrosive almost invariably loses to Viral on my status weapons - yes, against armored Level 100 targets. I don't think the game should be balanced around endurance-runners, but for the record this will only WORSEN with higher levels that endurance runners face (the Viral always provides the same multiplication, but the cap on Corrosive means that it will scale worse and worse with levels). But Viral is already better than Corrosive on oneshot weapons (multiplier effective against more target types and status effect is meaningful after one application rather than requiring stacks like Corrosive). The result is that Viral is almost uniformly better than Corrosive. Worse, Heat does the majority of Corrosive's effect and can be PAIRED WITH VIRAL for devastatingly overpowered results.
The main competition for Viral was always Corrosive and Gas, and we've already seen how Corrosive fails. As others have said, Gas has been gutted completely and unfairly, to the point of being completely useless now - somehow worse than Magnetic was before this update.
Magnetic is, naturally, still garbage - it should be an EMP Burst effect that either acts as a total shield knockout instantly, or that causes the current increased damage effect to all targets in an AoE like that of the toxin cloud from Gas - allowing preemptive setup on multiple targets rather than a debuff onto your initial target that means nothing at all because the shields disappear by the time you have it stacked.
Pretty much every other proc type is slightly better. Slightly being the operative word, and they weren't highly competitive against the former Holy Trinity of Viral, Corrosive, and Gas. Corrosive now falls into the "so-so" category others were in before (and still are in) now, and Gas is now sharing the "garbage" category Magnetic previously had to its lonesome. Meanwhile, Viral is buffed. I do not understand how this slipped through unnoticed.
I've changed builds on all my weapons. Nearly every single one of my weapons now uses Viral, whereas previously a variety of different elemental combinations were viable and even preferable (with Viral only claiming "best element" award on "many" weapons, not "nearly everything in the entire game") The primary exceptions are Komorex (because it has innate Viral procs, so I can freely build the massively over-buffed Viral alongside Corrosive and Heat) and Hema (because it has innate Viral, so I can fully stack the over-buffed Viral with Corrosive and Heat). Yeah. Same reason in both cases. Because the Viral is free, I don't have to build it. If things don't have it, I'm building it. Synoid Gammacor? Viral. Glaxion Vandal? Viral. Rubico Prime? Viral. Vulkar Wraith? Viral. Baza Prime? Viral. Kuva Ogris? Viral.
You know what unites these weapons about these weapons and their playstyles? Absolutely nothing at all. They all build Viral now though. EVERYTHING builds Viral now.
As soon as people figure out how this update works and tests things, we're going to see nothing but Viral builds on almost every weapon in the game. It's a disaster gone live that is killing diversity, when diversity is what makes this game so exciting. It's fun to test out different weapons and see how they excel at exploiting different mechanics to accomplish the same end of defeating enemies. Or so it was, until this patch, unless something is done about the freak show that is Viral unleashed. I can no longer in good faith build weapons for anything other than Viral, without feeling like I am deliberately hamstringing my own performance. Something REALLY needs to be done.
I propose three changes:
1) Reduce Viral damage amplification range to 1.5x (one stack) to 2.5x (max stacks). Something to this general tune is going to be necessary to prevent it from absolutely obliterating the competition in the status application field.
2) Raise the cap on how much armor Corrosive can remove to 95%. Corrosive can under no circumstance ever compete with Heat doing half its job as it tags along for free on Viral builds unless that cap is raised to around this much.
3) Return Gas to its mechanics before this update. Gas is beyond worthless now. Gas currently deals an AoE of a damage type that everything in the game resists (don't BS me about Infested when Toxic Ancients exist and Gas cannot be build alongside Radiation to strip their auras) and that bypasses no defenses of any type - it is utter trash on ever level! Gas had a meaningful, balanced place in the game before of which it has now been robbed. Just give it that role back.
As minor recommendations:
1) Change Magnetic to an EMP burst that chains like the Electric Tesla Chain to nearby targets, applying the current debuff to ALL targets hit by the chaining. Shields are MUCH lower priority than health, so you need a more potent effect than Viral to make it compete with other status types, or it will always be worse. By giving it AoE setup that leaves shields ready to drop at a moments notice for ALL enemies in the area, there is just a chance it might finally be worth it.
2) Possibly nerf Heat armor strip slightly to further emphasize the identity of Corrosive as the optimal armor strip choice since Heat is also providing Panic and DoT alongside the armor strip that is now almost as good (due to the Corrosive nerfs). This is not a substitute for raising the Corrosive armor strip cap, but rather a potential complementary suggestion.
Again, I stress that the everything else among the changes is great. The stacking bonuses for the elements I have not discussed in this post are perfect - but remain pointless to build or try out so long as they are completely nuked into oblivion by the overbearing presence of Viral. There is a whole wonderful and exciting world of new modding possibilities in this patch that will remain completely unexplored until Viral is addressed (and preferably - Corrosive and Gas with the recommended buffs I described).