[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Kalarual said:

I never really thought about it, but reading your post now has me wondering. Why can she fly?

Why can't zephyr, a BIRD?

this is easily the best damned post in the entire thread and you are now my hero for the day. Best. Quote. Evar.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Zeclem said:

her 1 doesnt have any animation lock but sure.

refer to the first one.

as if former augment was any good

"sitting duck" what? ever heard of turbulence?

i already presented the argument. shes not exclusively a shield frame, thats why she can hover. but you decided to completely ignore it. 

having an actually decent and quick cc is better. 

having an usable and actually strong ult is better.

being able to hover in mid air where nobody can touch you is better. 

not being salty is better.

oh and, only "animation lock" is on her 3, not on her 1. so yeah. oh and, she does fly. her 1 IS flight. "oh but she drops after a cast" yeah so does aircraft when you stop fueling them. by your logic, those dont "fly" either. 

guessing you don't understand what an animation lock means.

if you cast tailwind with a max duration build, you will stay in the animation till the effect ends. That's the animation lock. You cannot break out of it, when you used to. You cannot turn. you cannot alter your direction. At. All. You are committed to the direction you were aiming when you cast the ability.

turbulence has an extended animation which is addressed in the slashed out op because it's not the focus of this thread. Deny the proof all you want, it only gives me the idea you've little to no experience on the frame in question. I could very well be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

your arguments are counter intuitive. "Being in the air where nobody can touch you is better" but you have nothing but opposition to the proposition.

Just because her previous augment for tailwind was useless is not an excuse to let the current one which has massive potential to go to waste.

Review my flight mechanic, and then come back here with an actual argument. As is you're coming off just as oppositional.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, SerphV said:

I love Zephy... but shouldnt true flight happen in an open area?

Planes and Chopper take flight in runway and pads in an open area.. like how Zephy does in plains...

Being able to hover in small area doesnt fit the idea of flight?

Just IMO

I'm glad you, like myself adore  Zephyr. So, the question I ask of you is this: After reading my suggestion on alterations for tailwind, would you agree or disagree that it would be a massive upgrade to her as a whole?

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Zeclem said:

theres no "inconsistency", you are just salty for no good reason whatsoever. zephyr isnt "blatantly ignored". she just got a rework not too long ago. and "subjectively"? what? her 1 got much better lol

You find animation locks tied to duration that are inescapable to be "better"?

You find being defenseless until the animation is over to be better?

You find an utterly unuseable augment to be better?

You find charging for the sole benefit of being a sitting duck unless you roll or melee or recast the ability which costs you the ability to hover, better?

Do you have any actual counter argument to bring forth? This thread is riddled with valid counter arguments against the notion. Yours? Yours amounts to about as much as the dude who quoted me with "lol u mad bro".

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:

I see. Thanks. 

No worries.

In the event I gave anyone the notion of being less than polite towards them, I'd like to take this moment to apologize. i'm a sarcastic person by nature, and although I'm not prone to anger, when one feels that they must explain "the same thing" over and over again, it does tend to shorten fuses. So in that regard, I do humbly apologize to anyone who got the notion of rude behavior aimed at them.

 

This thread is just an attempt to shed some light on something that bothers me as a warframe player, a gamer, and a person in general.

[We need to talk, DE.]

@InDueTime-EN- essentially your strawman was arguing that since she's not a bird she doesn't need to fly, which is an argument I never made.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:

 

What's a strawman? but anyway : 

I understand. She can, but that doesn't mean she is required to. She doesn't need to fly, because that's not the focus of her abilities. Flight is not necessary for her. 

 

Her flight surfaces could've developed to allow her more control over the wind. Since warframes were humans before, her abilities could have started as control over wind and her form change to amplify and streamline that control. She just didn't developed the ability to fly because maybe she did not see the need to. Maybe she just preferred the burst of speed that she gets rather than sustained flight. Speculations of course, but it is just there to emphasize that Zephyr was not designed around being able to fly.  

Planes were designed to fly, chickens weren't. Not all vehicles can fly, and most bird can. Zephyr, may not have been designed to fly. 

See, this is a more reasonable counter-argument. You may very well be right in that she may have never been intended to fly on the developers side of things. That's not something I can actually argue against as I haven't heard from them directly on the matter, hence the entire point of this post: get enough attention to catch their eyes.

And to answer your question about what a strawman is, here: Debaters invoke a straw man when they put forth an argument—usually something extreme or easy to argue against—that they know their opponent doesn't support. You put forth a straw man because you know it will be easy for you to knock down or discredit. It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position.

 

[We need to talk, DE.]

2 minutes ago, Ascarith said:

Physics aside, I'm fine with Zephyr not having full free flight. They opted to give that to Titania so that ship has probably sailed.

At this point, I would just settle for DE revisiting Tailwind, because that is one mess of an ability. I think we really need to have better control over how far, and what direction, Zephyr is going. So maybe pseudo-flight. Or some kind of better (and faster/more mobile) aim glide.

I'm tired of constantly crashing into walls, getting stuck in corners, getting stuck on random lips/ledges on tilesets (this causes problems for non-Zephyr frames too), and Tailwinding into the ground (and getting stuck smearing my face in the dirt until my duration runs out...so like 100m?) because my downward angle didn't quite register as a Divebomb. The passive really doesn't help when you get snagged on something, because not only do you not get to go anywhere during Tailwind, you also then take forever to get back to the ground.

[Rant about her passive in spoiler...not terribly constructive]

  Reveal hidden contents

From a physics perspective I don't even understand how that passive works. She is clearly not made of pure oxium (i.e. lighter than air) else she couldn't stay on the ground. But she also doesn't get blown around like a tumbleweed when she's on the ground, so why suddenly is she super floaty when she jumps (but only on a vertical axis?). Honestly, I don't want to be floaty at all most of the time. If you wind up anywhere above where you need to be, it takes forever to get back down. You can slightly mitigate it with aim glide (to avoid going to high), but if you mess up your timing then you're either too high or too low. Divebomb and ground slam have long recover animations which make them annoying options as well (and also occasionally murder random animals in the Vallis as you were trying to get a better vantage point, making you listen to The Business berate you as being on safari. Sorry man (and R.I.P. animal), I was just trying to...not float.). 

I dunno, she's aerodynamic (presumably), so just let me move faster in the air? Probably impossible, since this game's air resistance is crazy (except, apparently, when you have overshot your target in Tailwind, and then it does nothing while you fly a million miles in the wrong direction). Yes, a lot of this rant is technically user error, but I think it's fair to say there are very few options to recover from said errors.

The hover was an interesting idea (and now somewhat co-opted by Hyldrinn by the looks of things), but the fact that both height and duration are tied to the charge time makes it difficult to use. Good luck trying to get a good hover duration anywhere with a ceiling (particularly annoying in PoE/Vallis caves, since +duration is so good for the outdoor parts of PoE/Vallis). Trying to get an otherwise unreachable mining node in a PoE cave (old mining system) really drove this home for me. I was super excited that this was going to be a super niche way that hover was actually useful...until I realized unless the node is perfectly places, you're either going to be short on duration or way too high up. 😞

The tricky part is going to be keeping what makes Tailwind great (+duration on the open tile sets) while making it more user friendly in the rest of the content. And I don't really know what that should look like. I'm just good at complaining...

If you haven't done so already, please take a gander at the section of my op that highlights tailwinds issues and my suggestions on how to fix them, and then let me know if my suggestion addresses your concerns?

[We need to talk, DE.]

6 minutes ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

Warframe profile videos, especially old ones, are promotional videos that are known for making frames seem more powerful than they are. Volt being a "Potent alternative to Gunplay" comes to mind. I'm sure there are other examples. Now, I love Zephyr to death but a warframe that can truly fly and NOT shrink like Titania to allow access into tight corridors would be incredibly hard to control and not smash into walls like she does right now. maybe that's why she cannot.

reread the op after the edit. My tailwind rework suggestion completely mitigates your justifiable fears of indoor cramped flight.

[We need to talk, DE.]

1 minute ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Don't see no wings on Zephyr.

Aerodynamic Surfaces. Cars have em to keep them on the ground and Zephyr has them to help her stay afloat for longer. 
 

Saying that birbs control wind to fly is like saying that fish control water to swim or we control land to walk. 

Wind, water, and land are the platforms in which their movement are based on. 

They do not have control over it. 

You're the one making the claim of birb, not me. So that's a nice little strawman.

I'm saying I know how avionics work because I've actually worked in the freaking field. ZEPHYR, does CONTROL the wind. Zephyr, has flight surfaces. Something that can control the wind can control how much or little is going over the flight surfaces that cover the things body.

Do. You. Understand?

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

I have to agree with them, you posted a ten pages article because Hildryn can hover with highly restricted movements, but Zephyr can only dash at high speed without real interruption.

Again, as others said, Zephyr's design was wind, not flight. Why does she look like a bird then? She was released in 2014, the devs couldn't design frames like what we have now.

Hildryn first concept was Iron-man. But Iron-man can't steal shields! So what? Why does Valkyr have a whip then, cats don't have whips as a part of their body right? Why can Volt create a shield, his theme is electricity no?

Because one or two abilities differ from the original concept doesn't mean it's bullsh*t, so don't talk about it like it was the end of the world.

I posted an article because a warframe that is centered around flight and mobility as declared by the developers themselves in her damned profile video cannot do the things they say in her damned profile video to the extent that other frames CAN that do NOT share her thematics and visual representation. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I don't want Titania Nerfed or her flight taken away. I don't want Hyldrin to not have flight either. What I DO want is the one frame that already has everything needed in the mechanic FOR FLIGHT to be able to actually do so.

Everything is as I said, already there. It need only be slightly rearranged and then everyone will benefit instead of the minor few who've grown accustomed to sitting in the air like a turkey till they roll away.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, KaizergidorahXi said:

Flight surfaces or not, Zephyr is not a BIRD frame, she is a WIND frame. She is based on a concept made by a warframe fan for a WIND ELEMENTAL frame, not a bird frame. The concept art is readily availible online, and has at the top "ZEPHYR: WIND ELEMENTAL FRAME". 

might wanna watch the zephyr profile video on page 3 as it clearly states her abilities are to set her into flight. That came directly from DE, not the original concept that DE decided to claim and own.

[We need to talk, DE.]

5 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

If you remove Hyldrin or Titania from this argument and just focus on the main complaint :

Why doesn't Zephyr fly?

Answer : Her abilities are wind based. Controlling wind. Birbs and Planes, don't control wind to fly. They use their wings. Zephyr doesn't have wings, she has a design that makes her lighter than other frames. 

Do you know how flight surfaces work? I'm guessing not. It takes air a shorter time to pass over the top of a flight surface, than it does the bottom side of it.

This is what generates lift.

Here's the excerpt: Bernoulli's principle: Bernoulli's principle helps explain that an aircraft can achieve lift because of the shape of its wings. They are shaped so that that air flows faster over the top of the wing and slower underneath. Fast moving air equals low air pressure while slow moving air equals high air pressure.

 

What is zephyr's body covered with? Flight surfaces. What does she control? Wind. What is necessary for flight? Wind.  Controls wind.....has flight surfaces....nope can't see her flying makes no sense.

 

Yes, this is sarcasm. Not mean sarcasm mind you, but sarcasm nonetheless. Something that can cntrol wind can easily manipulate said wind over the flight surfaces to generate lift, just like it does with tailwind.

 

Edit: Wings are flight surfaces.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, seprent said:

what should she get instead then? 

A siege mode would be interesting, but I've no experience with hyldrin yet. I've a mountain of experience with Zephyr though. I only offer gripes about things I can honestly say I grasp firmly. It's why when someone asks me about how I would balance another warframe I usually have no input to offer as I've not spend a great amount of time with them. With zephyr, I have.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, PoisonHD said:

She's a shield frame, that has the design of a space trooper, like I said earlier. She is the shield frame, but she is also designed around ironman/space troopers. The two ideas fit well together, a heavily shielded space trooper. I'm also not against you here, just gonna say, I was saying earlier how Zephyr's design suggests that she should be able to fly, and cut through the air. Her design and theme aren't as well meshed as Hildryn's. Saying that, I mean she is thematically more a wind frame then a flight frame, but her design suggests she should fly.

 

Hildryn on the other hand, looks like a space trooper, has abilities like a shield frame, but the abilities could also be that of a space trooper.

Oh I feel ya here. I think one of the big issues with text format is that its entirely too easy to misunderstand someones words or intent due to the lack of any kind of emotional context. I'm angry that hyldrin is going to get a flight mode, but I'm not angry with anyone here.

 

Just now, Legion-Shields said:

Lol u mad bro

What a wonderful bout of input.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

A frame can be based on two things at the same time. Valkyr is a kitty viking. Oberon is a druid paladin

My overall point is that there are inconsistencies that occur and it bothers me immensely when I'm seeing what I perceive to be blatantly ignoring a frame.

I'm open to the possiblity I'm entirely wrong in DE's motivations, and I'm hoping that I am indeed incorrect.

What I want is their reasoning why they've made a frames number one mobility skill subjectively worse and have given any mechanics that could have gone to fixing this borked system to not one but two separate warframes. I just wanna know why, from their mouths.

[We need to talk, DE.]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

Gonna address this by the numbers here.

1: we don't pay for any service. It's entirely free. Nor did I state any dislike for any particular frame. So nice strawman.

2: Again, another strawman. Never once did I say, suggest or hint that I am owed an answer. Not once did I declare that my will must be bowed to.

3. Flight is useless in hallways? Have you ever played Titania? Granted her kit differs entirely from Zephyr's however even if you're filling the exact same situation of zipping through hallways to avoid enemies not being on the ground with an entire x y z plane to navigate on increases your movement options.

4. this is exactly why I have the original post in how I feel to best address her issues with tailwind are  included in the original post.

5. Calling out blatant inconsistencies and mistakes is the literal job of everyone. Just as on a range everyone is a safety officer, in an online gaming community everyone is a bug tester, everyone is an observer with something to put forth. And in the instance where things are being put in that are direct requests for a specific warframe, but that specific warframe doesn't get the requested change but a brand new warframe gets it as part of their kit, We players of said frames find it hard to take in.

 

the outrage over zephyr not being able to fly started upon the release of Titania, and now I'm kickstarting it myself with Hyldrin.

 

It's a simple matter of "these have what this should, so why not add it to her too"

 

 

Just now, seprent said:

it even explains how she does it  Hildryn activates her jet propulsion system as she lifts off from the ground. Hildryn gains vertical and horizontal flight capabilities While active, her shield matrix drains shield points continuously to generate an energy field; the energy field shrinks as Hildryn gains vertical height and expands as she is closer to the ground. Enemies inside the energy field have fiery pillars of energy erupt from beneath them, forcing the targets to be suspended in midair, receive damage per second, and occasionally drop energy orbs.

Can either one of you kindly show me which ironman movie/cartoon/comic that Tony Stark steals shields from others to bolster her own and allies?

She's not a shield frame but her entire kit functions around shields. Makes suense =/

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, IgnisDraconis4316 said:

@ObviousLee I don't see why it even matters dude. They can make a frame the way they want it. We pay for a service we do not have any other rights other than "we get to play said game". If you hate her so much you don't even have to play her. You can call her MASTERY FODDER like many do with weapons that aren't "God Tier". They do not have to answer to you or to me or anyone. We don't know where the inspiration for her came from. -1

So stop saying that because you spent money on the game that that gives you any rights to the IP and how the game is to be made. I have given hundreds to DE for their content but never once have I told them that they MUST answer to ME because I pay. If that was the case Chroma Prime would have been reworked before it was primed as was DEMANDED by the playerbase. -2

As for Zephyr at the time she was made we had no open worlds. Flight is useless in hallways and in corridors where any amount of flight is going to bump into things. At least with Hildryn's hover ability we can get some use out of it. I'm not sure how much and I doubt it would be useful except in Vallis or Plains. Titania the reason she can fly is she shrinks and therefore you still BUMP into things but your small enough that the cramped corridors don't bother you much. -3

Now you can give ideas but that is it. Suggest, inspire, feedback without sounding entitled. But just like I have a computer and may charge people to play on said computer....... like my friends...... just because they use it doesn't mean they can change my mouse settings, my computer, my property. DE owns the WARFRAME IP. I admit that Zephyr doesn't really feel like a bird even though she looks like it. However, if you look at her as an air elementalist (think the Last Airbender) then it makes total sense. Chroma is a dragon...... he is more of a Elementalist from other games. -4

I will try Hildryn and see how it is. Everyone I know is looking forward to her. They think she looks awesome. and together we can help DE make Hildryn and Zephyr better........ but remember they still have the final say........ we just have to help them see how they can make their idea better without changing it to something they didn't have in their vision for their IP. -5

 

Make sense?

Gonna address this by the numbers here.

1: we don't pay for any service. It's entirely free. Nor did I state any dislike for any particular frame. So nice strawman.

2: Again, another strawman. Never once did I say, suggest or hint that I am owed an answer. Not once did I declare that my will must be bowed to.

3. Flight is useless in hallways? Have you ever played Titania? Granted her kit differs entirely from Zephyr's however even if you're filling the exact same situation of zipping through hallways to avoid enemies not being on the ground with an entire x y z plane to navigate on increases your movement options.

4. this is exactly why I have the original post in how I feel to best address her issues with tailwind are  included in the original post.

5. Calling out blatant inconsistencies and mistakes is the literal job of everyone. Just as on a range everyone is a safety officer, in an online gaming community everyone is a bug tester, everyone is an observer with something to put forth. And in the instance where things are being put in that are direct requests for a specific warframe, but that specific warframe doesn't get the requested change but a brand new warframe gets it as part of their kit, We players of said frames find it hard to take in.

 

the outrage over zephyr not being able to fly started upon the release of Titania, and now I'm kickstarting it myself with Hyldrin.

 

It's a simple matter of "these have what this should, so why not add it to her too"

 

[We need to talk, DE.]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

No you cant.

Thats not sustained hovering thats called gliding. 

But the added con os that i cant stay up in the air almost perpetually out of harms way whilst i lay waste to everything below me.

A thing aim glide cant do and Hyld hasn't been proven to do.

and with a sustained flight ability, as outlined in my op that literally there is nothing to complain about as it benefits all playstyles, you can have the best of the hover, without the inherent issues of tailwind.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:

As I mentioned, the aviation names were given after the abilities were set. 

If your basis of her being an Aviation Frame is the names, then Let me rename each ability to make it wind themed :  Air jump, Air bust, Wind shield, Tornadoes. There you go, now you can complain how unimaginative those names are, but they will no longer be "Aviation Themed"

blatantly missed the part about how the physical representation of the warframe also is indicative and ties into the thematic. So again, does nidus's infested parts not factor into his theme? How about Embers flames? Frosts ice vents? Yup nothing is indicative of what the frame is about, so obviously flight surfaces on a warframe would definitely indicate that it's themed around necromancy.

 

Just now, Genesix6 said:

You know, it will be cool if zephyr had an ability that can fly like a jet. That being said, it wouldn't work that well if we were to play in tight space. A lot of mission location are is usually small and narrow such as grinner and corpus ship, so the only thing you will be experience is smashing yourself to the wall.

Also

Tailess peacock frame confirm

please read the OP with my flight mechanic as your concerns of continued flight are addressed and remedied in my post.

[We need to talk, DE.]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Zephyr can hover too so whats the issue?

The issue is you can accomplish the exact same thing by jumping and aim-gliding. you even get the added benefit of moving without having to wither wait for the duration to end or rolling out. It's added fluff for a subpar outcome thats easier achieved by not doing the charge.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Marvelous_A said:

Her design does tie to wind though. But wind doesn't necessarily equal flying. You know, like penguin. A bird by all means but doesn't mean they necessarily can fly.

See now this is a reasonable response. However I must direct back to the notion of a warframe, the only one I might add who has flight surfaces. These are key tools for flight. They alongside her passive of lighter than air alloy makeup and her thematic tie into a warframe that should have been able to fly, but due to the system restrictions at the time of incorporation couldn't. It was understandable then, and had not a single other warframe come out with an ability of flight as an ability I'd not be nearly as bothered by it.

 

But we have not one, but two frames that can do what a warframe centered around dominating the skies as mentioned in her release trailer, cannot do.

 

This, requires justification for me to be ok with. I'm ok with zephyr never flying so long as DE can give me a good reason why, when all the tools necessary to make whats been asked for a possiblity already exist within tailwinds mechanics as it currently is.

[We need to talk, DE.]

1 minute ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

 

 

 

It is useable, I can go on a tileset and slam my face all over the place if I wanted to. Long corridors are specially quick to go through or these rooms : 

  Hide contents

 

 

Emphasis on Terms. These names came after the abilities were given after creating the abilities, same as most warframes. 

Oberon "Paladin Themed Skills" "Druid Themed Aesthetics"

Revenant "Vampire Themed Skills" "Sentient Themed Aesthetics"

 

Wind related things that don't fly : 

Fans

Windmills

Tornadoes/Huricanes

Sails

And as mentioned before, none of those have anything to do with flight. They don't have flight surfaces.

 

In case anyone is wondering where I'm drawing this whole aviation thing from, it's my experience of flying aircraft in the military.

 

Edit: nothing in this quoted post challenges my claim. You cannot do a max duration build for zephyr, and still utilize her tailwind indoors properly due to the way the mechanic functions as it won't let you out of the animation till the duration ends.

 

If anything, you've only reinforced my point.

[We need to talk, DE.]

3 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

They mean nothing. Nowhere in her description, prime or non-prime, depicts that she is designed for flight. If she can transform into F-35 but still can't fly I'd have understood your grudge. But she can't. She is designed around wind element, not strictly flying. 

She's not a transformer though, so your comparison falls flat.

She has flight surfaces, those tie into her thematic just the same as every other warframe, or does nidus's infested chunks of flesh that spring up when he's "excited" have nothing to do with his* theme as well?

 

Guessing Ember's flames have nothing to do with theme as well, by your logic.

[We need to talk, DE.]

Just now, Marvelous_A said:

I wouldn't care too much about it. Apparently Hildryn can hover but with reduced mobility. Zephyr is not designed around flying but rather wind element. I do hope DE will modify Tailwind into a channel ability that allows you to propel forward non-stop when you hold down the ability button.

Not designed around aviation? then why are more than half of her skills named after aviation terms?

Why is she covered in flight surfaces.

Why does she have an empennage?

 

Edit: not trying to come off as condescending, I'm literally asking your input.