TheGreenFellow
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Posts posted by TheGreenFellow
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The day/night cycle thing is the biggest reason I don't bother much with Eidolons except when I need another Riven transmuter.
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Is there some kind of internal plan to up drop chances after a couple weeks of releasing a new item to motivate players to blow plat on these rather than grind for them?
Or does someone at DE just have sadist tendencies when it comes to drop rates and grind?
Seriously, I've already done the hoop-jumping several times over while playing this game with these shenanigans. Every new release feels like it gets even worse with drop rates. Could you please take it easy? Or let us know if we should wait a bit if we intend to grind rather than spend a couple hundred plat for potential MR fodder?
Frustrated and annoyed. -
On 2019-07-21 at 4:31 AM, DrakeWurrum said:
Her 2nd ability dramatically recharges shields and clears you and allies of status effects - also strips some defenses from enemies.
Her 3rd ability is powerful AOE damage, while also providing shields to the team (which even grants them the effects of your passive).
Her 4th ability is a massive aoe CC that combines with her 1st ability to be a powerful aoe nuke (which also ragdolls, if they survive the hit).
The only problem with her kit is the 1st ability, honestly - I never bother to use it without the 4th ability.
I don't see why people call her kit "lackluster" - she doesn't clear rooms like Saryn spores or the Equinox AFK toggle, so what?
It's a bit off-topic, but....
Her 2 has to be spammed every 2s - any time it's off cooldown - to be effective, being her main source of ability fuel.
Her 3rd ability is neat and all, but most allies will not care about shields too much.
Her 1 is pointless without her 4, like old Zephyr's 1 & 2. And even then, they're mediocre at best and complicate the uptime of her 3.
It's a neat experiment with shield-based abilities and all but in practice, it's basically just her 3rd ability with the 2nd spammed to fuel it, with an option to use an Exalted Sonicor mode that both purposelessly occupies 2 of her 4 ability slots and has severe anti-synergy with her 3rd ability.
It's not very exciting and she doesn't really "do" anything for particular mission objectives. Only reason I'm bothering at this stage is if she fits the niche of Profit-Taker bounties nicely. -
On 2019-07-21 at 6:13 AM, Dhrekr said:
What about the idea that the best way of enjoying the game is to skip the parts that are optional and unpleasant, which is my suggestion?
You see, the problem which we have in communicating is that, in my estimation, you use the word "need" in such a weird way.
As I have shown, you don't need those Nightwave points. You really don't, unless you can show me that 4500 is bigger than 130500. Since you don't need them, you don't need to do that Nightwave challenge. Therefore, you don't need to spend forma for Nightwave, nor to have things that need forma which you for some reason don't want to forma unless you get Nightwave points for them.
So, here's your answer. Do you need to save forma and things that need to be forma'd? No, you don't need to. There's nothing you need that for. There is no need for them, for the challenge, for those puny 4500 points.
But I'm sure that you'll still pretend this isn't true. After all, this whole thread is predicated on you desperately needing those puny 4500 points and becoming afraid at the thought of not receiving them.
Your logic hinges on the idea that Nightwave content should be, optimally speaking, ignored, so long as there's generous amounts of it. As I've previously stated I disagree with that. The challenges should be, invariably, things you can do while also enjoying the benefits of the activity it asks you to do.
This holds true for the great majority of the Nightwave challenges. It didn't hold true for gilding, which is why that got removed. Same logic here.
Nothing "untrue" or "puny" about it. -
16 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:
The devs aren't stymieing you.
You are stymieing yourself.
What part of "optional" was unclear to you? What part of "skippable" and "unimportant" remains obscure? The devs aren't stopping you from playing the game to your heart's content and formaing whenever you want. They made it so that you can skip this Nightwave weekly 28 times and somehow this whole thread is based on the premise that you can't skip it even one time of the 28 that are allowed (without repercussions) to you.
Seriously, from my point of view, this whole thread is predicated on the basis of you not wanting to skip something utterly skippable and optional, but also not wanting to do the thing that is completely skippable and you don't want to skip.
Which is why I don't have any pity for you. Make up your mind. If you want to submit yourself mercilessly to all the challenges, then accept it and jump every hoop. If you want to play the game following your priorities and not losing out on any reward, you have that option. Pick one.
You're merely repeating yourself without acknowledging my view now, which I should say puts us at an impasse.
The idea that the best way of enjoying "optional" game content is to "skip" it and treat it as "unimportant" is a poor one.
I still am nonplussed as to what about this thread annoys you so personally. What's it to you if I don't want to be held in suspense not knowing if I need to save forma & things that need to be forma'd? There's no way that could possibly detract from your game experience.
And again, I don't want your pity to begin with. If you can't stay reasonable and rational in a feedback thread that in no way targets your fun in the game, why would I care for that?
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I'm attempting to craft a trio of Nightfall Apothics for this nightwave mission. And I'm rather stumped by needing more Moonlight Dragonlilies.
Apparently, Cetus is in its own alternate dimension on another version of Earth, that has an entirely different day/night cycle from the rest of the Earth that exists in our universe.
What mad deity decided that that was the best method of creation for this system is beyond me.
Anyway, could we maybe get a fix for this issue?
Sync up the day/night cycles with Cetus, so that I'm not potentially twiddling my thumbs for 4 hours (even though I already despise twiddling my thumbs for Cetus' cycles)?
Give us a tooltop when hovering over Earth mission nodes that tells us whether it's daytime or nighttime?
Make certain mission nodes on Earth always be daytime or night time?
Anything would be nice.-
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I spent the Rebellion missions leveling my Hildryn (such a lackluster kit, sigh) and the new secondary gun. Last one was with MR9, 10, and 12, who I had to keep rescuing, thankfully made easier with my Vazarin focus tree.
Didn't encounter any insurmountable difficulty. Certainly I can see how this would be challenging without at least one good weapon in hand and an advanced mod collection, though. -
2 hours ago, Dhrekr said:
This challenge is aimed and tailored for people who are, say, between MR 10 and MR 20. Mid-level players who start to have a good inventory but haven't gotten into the habit of Formaing their equipment. Or for players in the same range who would anyway Forma their equipment all the time.
For this people, it's a perfectly fine challenge. It might even prompt players new players (say, under MR 5 or 6) to start experimenting with Formas.
So, it's a win in my opinion.
If that comes at the cost of a couple of weird MR 28 people who have nothing to Forma and get a neurosis at the thought of not using 4500 Nightwave points (out of the 130500 they can skip)... it's a fair trade-off.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to communicate hostility.
But spite, yes.
The Forma challenge doesn't hurt you in any way (no, I don't consider "I can't stand the thought of having to wait for 24 hours, so now I physically can't Forma anything any more because I am paralyzed by fear" a harm). It can be a useful prompt for newer, younger players who might need to be nudged into using their Forma and improving their arsenal.
So... in my opinion, it doesn't hurt you and helps other players. That is for me enough to say that it should stay.
It's obvious anybody that is in the process of Forma'ing things and has plenty of things to need to forma will not suffer from indecision for this challenge.
That's neither here nor there as relates to this thread.
They'd be using that forma anyway regardless. That's not a "win", that's happenstance.
Dimissing anybody that dislikes this as weird and neurotic is not an argument.
The challenge is causing me to pick inaction over action in the course of playing the game. That's a phrase that should be a contradiction in terms.
Want newer, younger players to use forma and improve their arsenal? Provide better & lengthier tutorial experiences. Provide better tool-tips. Provide ingame all the information that's been kept on the wikia for all of these years. Reduce the time it takes to craft Forma.
Don't stymie other players in the process. -
Yeah, I'd prefer if they stayed consistent with alt fire and let us tap a button to switch modes or else use the alt fire mode to use that mode.
That said, being able to ADS after I start firing for full-auto mode isn't *that* difficult. Just would be a nice little bit of QOL. -
On 2019-07-16 at 2:19 PM, Oreades said:
General power creep is a definite thing,
My thing with there being no power creep was to the end that an iterative multi-polarity forma system wouldn't add any power creep to the game because anything that could be done in that system is already being done now. Ultimately the only real thing that it does add is build flexibility, which in turn encourages people to explore the median where now they are functionally punished for anything that isn't min/maxing.
You essentially go from
New frame > Max Power (where we are now ~2-6 forma with stagnant build potential) > Build flexibility (that we currently don't have)
Okay, I see what you were saying.
Generally, I would enjoy more flexibility. Personally, I think just having 10 normal mod slots instead of 8 would go a long way - that, and a revamp of the Augment system, including possibly having them use their own dedicated mod slot(s), baking some current Augments into baseline abilities (Hydroid stands out, for instance) and perhaps coming up with new ones to replace them with...all of which, of course, would tie into a general Warframe design update, which thus far DE has been doing piecemeal and not all that consistently.
But multi-polarity would help a little too - and would certainly give me a good reason to bother forma'ing my equipment further! -
On 2019-07-16 at 11:52 PM, Dhrekr said:
Oh, poor you, cry me a river using the world's tiniest violin.
Yes, you are asking for the devs to change the game for nothing more than the mildest inconvenience that is brought to you, having (oh no!) to wait for 24 hours in a game that you have played for years. I have, personally, no sympathy - and I fully hope that the devs will have none either.
I don't remotely understand your hostility.
What benefit are you (or the devs) possibly gaining from the forma Nightwave challenge causing potential Forma waste & reluctance to continue Forma'ing things between appearances of this Challenge?
Yes, I am asking for the devs to change & improve their game. Inconveniences should get addressed. Wait times of 72 hours (not merely 24) for one single Nightwave challenge isn't reasonable.
And frankly, I don't care for your sympathy, as you seem hell-bent on irrational toxicity. -
9 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:
Never said that it's your fault the game has this challenge. Looks like you didn't read properly.
It's your fault to let that challenge stop you from doing things, considering how easy that challenge is, and how easy it is to get Forma.In other words, this isn't an issue at all. You make it an issue. So again, it's on you.
Make up your mind. Either way, you're speaking nonsense. "This isn't an issue, you make it an issue" - this statement carries no meaning. It's an issue, period. One that apparently you take personal umbrage with.
9 hours ago, Dhrekr said:Listen, even allowing this is the case, here's the truth.
According to this thread from yesterday, you can skip 130000 reputation points in the current Nightwave and still obtain max rank.
130000 points.
So, do you want to skip the 4500 points from the Forma challenge? Man, you can skip that roughly 28 times and still obtain max rank. 28 times is, by the way, more than it can happen.
So... it's not that I don't get your concern. But why are you worried? DE allow us to miss out on 130500 points. It's not even tight. You can skip one elite weekly per week and still skip all the Forma challenges.
Don't like the Forma challenges? Then ignore them. Just consider them to be lost points - you can 100% ignore them without repercussion. Just play as you want and don't do the challenges you don't want to do.
4500 points might be the difference between accessing my desired goal (Umbral forma) 24 hours sooner, albeit that is a sizeable buffer zone.
I'm one of those that get enjoyment from seeking out the most efficient path forward. Currently I don't know how many future challenges are going to involve forma. All I can do is speculate and wait in trepidation; it's silly. If I knew for certain whether to expect them (and when), then I could make a solid decision going one way or the other. Ultimately I'd be happiest with that challenge just being removed.
How many players collect piles of forma *without finding things to use them on*, anyhow? Bare minimum you need to spend 72 hours building Forma for this challenge. I think that's a bit much.
9 hours ago, JawNuts said:Don't worry, you'll have plenty of stuff to forma. When the NW challenge occurs I usually forma my pets, weapons I don't use much, or frames I want to use Umbra mods on.
I have plenty of stuff, and it's all already forma'd. It's usually how I come up with something to do in combination with dailies & relic-cracking, and I'm at 470+ logins...so it's all mostly done by this point.
7 hours ago, GinKenshin said:I think there's too many advices now, so here's an insight: can you have 3 builds set in a single frame that you don't need to change since they work just fine, so limited build potential is meaningless.....also, re-formaing is a thing
1- MR =/= knowledge and experience in the game
2- if you're MR27 and consequently have almost all the items in the game, then what's the point of forma? you have a bunch of it since you're not using it, and lets not kid ourselves, forma is one of the most common things for people who played a lot anyway, and they're pretty cheap of the market as well with 35 for 3
3- I gave advice because you sounded like you knew nothing about the game, so....Re-formaing every time you want to change a build is anything but efficient. Anyhow.
Mastery Rank is *the* measure of progression in the game. You don't reach MR27 by accident, you *have* to play and experience and accumulate knowledge of the game to make it to this point. You can't buy Mastery Rank, you can't skip Mastery Rank, you can't cheese Mastery Rank. There's no reasonable way you can claim it doesn't correlate to knowledge and experience in the game.
Wasting forma, and more importantly wasting time re-leveling gear, is the last thing I'm keen on doing, especially after having spent all this time playing the game to get to MR27 and to have all of my equipment forma'd to this degree.
I don't know what could possibly have given you reason to jump to the conclusion that I "knew nothing about the game", but you were wrong, as most ill-informed assumptions are.
1 hour ago, Oreades said:(snip)
Heck so far about half the answers to this have been "just forma something you don't care about" or "just repolarize a slot to the same polarity". Wouldn't people actually like to get a benefit from using those forma even if that benefit is only the potential of build flexibility? Something that actually feels good to do instead of something you just do to get it done?
If I were actually getting a benefit from "over-forma-ing" equipment, as you suggest here, naturally it wouldn't bother me.
Regarding a bit of the snipped stuff...power creep totally exists, it's the largest issue with the game currently in my view. Being limited to 8 mods is a pain when there's so many mods to pick from - so many neat quality of life mods I'd *like* to enjoy that I will never use on anything in the current status quo; yet at the same time, all of the game's balance problems and many design problems (boss fights, mainly) stem from the modding system allowing us to make our 'frames and equipment literally thousands of times better than baseline by stacking multiplier after multiplier. It's all a mess, really. I could rant more, but probably should try to stay on-topic for the most part here. -
49 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:
I mean, it is a challenge in the pool. So it will come back.
And if you let this challenge stop you from forma'ing stuff, then that's on you, and not the game's fault. (Just to make this clear)
Yeah, it's totally my fault the game has Nightwave challenges requiring Forma. Yup. On me. My bad guys.
38 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:no, it's still in the cycle
seriously though, is it really that hard to use forma three times? here's an advice:
the more mod polarities a frame has, the higher their starting energy will be, so you can try to maximize that if you don't have anything to forma. if that fails well.....adding no polarity is a thing, the 100+ forma challenge is a thingNo, it's not "hard". It *is* a big waste of resources and time if I don't strictly need that forma applied.
p.s. I'm MR27 and this is not the "new player advice" section of the forums.
29 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:As someone with almost everyting in the game, there aren't many items that I want to forma. Like low tear weapons or K-drives that I just don't really have enough mods to make different builds.
For this challenge, I just forma either stuff I want and didn't forma or just use an old low tear weapon that I just ranked up to 30 and forgot about it. I will probubly start formaing K-drives once I get them all to 30.This person gets it. There's not much left in my inventory that hasn't been fully forma'd. What I have left, I'm reluctant to further forma because I might need to save it for Nightwave.
16 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:Sure, the game puts us in this or that position. But letting this situation stop you, then that's totally on the player and not on the game.
I mean, going by OP's logic, we never should forma anything, because there might be a better item coming out next update. Strangely enough, nobody thinks that way. So why would you stop forma'ing anything, just because of Nightwaves.
Nothing about my "logic" said "never forma anything". You're ignoring the context I've provided. I'm not sure if you're trying to troll or what.
And there's legitimate reason to avoid forma'ing items that very obviously will have a better version coming out (e.g. non-prime Warframes). Plenty of people think about optimal use of forma, that's a straight-up falsehood to sweepingly claim "nobody" thinks about that. -
As in title. I have a number of Warframes and weapons ready to be forma'd and improved on, yet I'm reluctant to do so because I know that I might need things to forma for Nightwave. Meaning I'm now in a progression rut where I don't know whether to play or not play and keep the status quo.
Can that Nightwave challenge be removed, please? Can we get official confirmation on whether it will or won't occur again? This is really messing things up for me. -
As in title. Host migration problems are plaguing this game pretty badly.
Host left on 15th wave. Game was just stuck in post-relic selection screen for the next wave for me and 1 other person, and the third player didn't appear in the selection screen at all. No escape option, no leave squad option, no option at all, just stuck, until the third player left squad (presumably alt+F4'd) and then me and the 1 remaining other player could proceed. -
On 2019-06-20 at 11:30 AM, Xzorn said:
The game just doesn't work like that.
Loki for instance can be utilized as your sole source of team defense. You literally don't need mitigation, healing or anything of the sort because no one on your team will get shot long as they know what they're doing. Now you have those three slots for pure offensive options which maximizes your kill speeds. Volt is the same deal. If your team sits behind his Shield nothing in the game can hurt them. Trinity paired with Gara and an Ancient Healer can let your team face tank lvl 9,999 Bombard rockets.
Wisp can do none of this paired with another frame or otherwise so when scaling comes to push. She's the one you drop from the team.
She's a pub frame. When you really min/max and do pre-mades; Wisp has no place because there's nothing exceptional on offer.
How do you mean that's not how the game works? That's what my experiences both using and witnessing others use Wisp has been. She accomplishes a lot that normally would require more than 1 player.
Loki has to do a LOT of re-casting his 4 in order to cover all incoming enemies during a typical defense-type mission in order to achieve what you describe. Which is particularly troublesome when enemies are being just killed left and right (causing reinforcements to appear that much sooner). I suppose he might be worth trying out for Corpus Excavations, though.
And...most Warframes manage to have offensive options in addition to AOE crowd control. Like Volt. Whose shields only last so long and cover only so many angles at one time. It does work out for static defense objectives, but if you're having to move around a lot...that's a lot of re-casting.
Trinity and Gara I'm hazy on, I'll admit.
Wisp can offer CC, damage, healing, and buffs all at the same time. Talking about Warframe viability in terms of face tanking lvl 9,999 Bombard rockets is a little outside the region of reasonable, innit? That's extremely niche. For 99% of the game content (I'm willing to bet it's a much lower percentage than even 1% of players that purposefully take endless mission modes to such extremes) that point is moot.
And let's remember, pre-mades are by and large used to do very niche things. I personally get by without using premades for anything (aside from relics), not even for Tridolons, albeit that means I don't try for more than 2 or 3 per night cycle if I take things seriously. Habit of a lone wolf player. I'll at least admit, I probably won't ever use Wisp for Index (though I probably won't ever use any frame besides Rhino for that, 'cuz Iron Skin).
On 2019-06-20 at 11:53 AM, moostar95 said:Like i said sometime ago, some people were making some cringe comparisons to her being better then EQUINOX! no, just, no. Equinox is the number one best support frame ever. because in any team meta, she is always useful and her heals are instant and you heal mates from a distance. Also Sleep nox is one of the most fun builds of the game for me. I'm a CC dps god with this build. also unlike wisp, when you want to deal out dps, day nox with her 4 plus her 3 with the peaceful mod and you get damage numbers wisp mains WISH they had. oh and she goes out of the star chart too. just saying. 😆
Equinox is definitely top tier, though that's a bit due to basically having 2 separate Warframe packages rolled into 1. If it weren't for her AOE damage also having the incredible scaling nuke factor, I might call it a closer contest with Wisp. As a Support frame, Equinox is a little limited in needing to charge up each 'burst' of healing, albeit that can be made easier with her augment - similar to Harrow needing to kill enemies directly in order to provide his team with healing and energy. In my experience, sleep 'nox is rather like Loki's Disarm - it's kind of superfluous compared to just killing them outright most of the time. I've never opted to try the 'focus farm' method, I'd rather just kill more Eidolons, but that's a niche thing anyway.
16 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:OP, you forgot the most egregious part of Wisp's design: Her 1st is Chroma's 2nd reskinned and put together. It's literally just better. It performs the job of Toxin, Electric, and Flame Chroma AND IT'S PERMANENT. DE needs to stop kicking the poor dragon while he's down.
Yeah, poor boy Chroma has needed a thematic ability rework for a long time. If not for the min/max niche hype of his damage buff ability he'd probably be bottom tier. His 4th should be a 1 or 2 ability at best, really; if his ultimate was instead the ability to fight as a great void dragon...hooo boy!
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Super agreed. It's a constant annoyance any time that I foolishly attempt to dabble in utilizing robotic weapons. Every time it's just a reminder to me of why I don't use them.
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58 minutes ago, Xzorn said:
Just because an ability counts as a specific category doesn't make it a good performer in that category.
Warframe development has gone more to generalization instead of specialization. Warframe as a game however is one that rewards specialization.
You can see this in the way new frames are tied to their stats. Most are very middle-road. All stats are needed in order for the frame to function where as older frames could dump certain stats to further specialize in a specific role. Frame design now attempts to accomplish a theme instead of a purpose. I'm not apposed to every stat being valuable to a frame, far from it but the way it's done through "Synergy" is more of a prevention method to build concepts outside the frame's intended theme.
Take your comparisons for example. No matter how well you build Wisp for CC; she will never match Loki built for CC. It's impossible. Volt built for his Shield is also impossible for Wisp to beat as a Defensive measure in missions where only players need protecting as nothing can penetrate it. Tanking? Trinity with 1,833,000 eHP before Adaptation, feel free to try and beat that and DPS? Well, no frame "Ability Damage" is top DPS. It's weapons fueled by buffs and debuffs with a slight exception to Brokentavia.
Jack-of-Trades is how most frame design goes now. Some have cool synergy like Garuda and Gara. Some don't but doesn't make them better.
Valid points. I'd argue, though, that Wisp can be Loki, Volt, and Trinity all at once, leaving 3 slots open for your teammates to fill and perhaps make up for the things those other 3 Warframes can do that she cannot, thus reaching a net gain overall.
It's tough to find similar comparisons for carrying that much capability in one Warframe ability package.
Certainly DE likes their "theme" thing, and that's fine - I also like "Synergy" very much - I just think they need to have a clear design policy that I'm not positive they currently have.
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28 minutes ago, George_PPS said:Almost all new frames released since 2018 are metas in certain missions, and that’s a great thing. DE is doing great here. And it’s pretty clear that DE is also updating previous frames to the same levels.
Can all stop talking about “power creep”? There is no such thing. We Tennos and our warframes are supposed to be this powerful and can kill enemies fast. This is warframe and not some shooting games set in slow motions.
Finally, once all frames are reworked and upgraded like Wukon, there can be new enemies that are harder to deal with and more fun.
Well, I'm not so certain it is clear what level they want - remember the Ember nerf (just, why? what even was the point of that?) was not that long ago either. Hence the question raised in this thread!
To deny power creep is, I feel, to have one's head in the sand where much of the game is right now. Warframe's most significant problem for quite some time has been power creep - it's a veritable pyramid of cards, starting with the modding situation offering exponential multipliers to all of our capabilities and damage-dealing, which has a domino effect on the damage & status system, enemy scaling, overzealous amounts of anti-player CC, boss immunity & fight design, and on and on it goes.
It's fine if we're supposed to be powerful and kill enemies fast - though that's up to DE to decide. What's not fine is having a poor balance to the game such that it feels like many weapons and even Warframes may as well not exist, oftentimes due to the domino-effects that power creep itself creates.
If DE is indeed going to rework all frames to this degree of Wisp and Wukong, so much the better! I hope they do so. But I don't think they can or will without fundamentally establishing a central policy of Warframe ability design. -
On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:
The math is simple - Both will suffer from diminishing return as long as they buff a stat that is already high to begin with. A high armor, low health frame like Hildryn would benefit more from Wisp's buff, while a high health lower armor frame like Zephyr or Inaros would benefit more from Oberon's buff. This is situational - all flat number additions in Warframe are subject to diminishing returns.
Also, Oberon's 3rd ability also cleanses negative status effects when it heals to full HP, which Wisp's first does not do. I have not taken anything too literally, you are simply exaggerating the capabilities that Wisp has, really.
"The math is simple" - what math? You've presented no more math than I have, but I digress. All I have said is that in practice the effect is the same. There's some situational differences depending on who-brought-what, yes, but that doesn't detract from my statement.
Oberon's status cleanse mainly comes from his 2nd ability. The status cleanse when an ally is healed to full HP occurs far less often (as in you're not likely to notice it) and in practice is certainly not reliable enough to be worth including in my comparison: it's just a sort of 'extra benefit' so that your energy isn't merely wasted by keeping it active on fully healthy allies. The moment they take damage again, so too is the status cleanse - they have to be healed back up to full to be cleansed again.On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:No, actually you are just trying to narrow down your argument after making a sweeping statement. Also, a fire rate buff is not a net positive. It is nice to have on a slow gun like the Opticor, but a fire rate buff doesn't actually change the damage/ammo of a shot. For something like the Twin Grakata, upping the fire rate treads into the meme territory and is actually hardly the optimal strategy. Fire rate is NEVER a net plus, it depends on the gun. This is why the Mote increases Speed and Fire Rate, not Speed and Damage.
You stated clearly in the post Wisp makes X frame obsolete, so of course you didn't mean what you are saying here. It's clear that you overgeneralized things that were not meant to be. You are trying to reframe your argument as something it is not.
You're attempting to make the wild claim that a fire rate buff is not a buff. Okay, then.
"Fire rate buff doesn't actually change the damage" is painfully obvious. What it does do is significantly increase damage-per-second. Obviously that's not of as much benefit as raw damage boosting in niche situations where DE has given the boss encounter a flat damage resistance, but it is STILL beneficial assuming you have the ammunition to sustain the higher rate of fire. Situations that I'd caution against using low-damage-high-critical guns like Twin Grakatas.
I did not, in fact, flatly state "Wisp makes X frame obsolete". You're neglecting the word "possibly". Perhaps you missed it and need to read more slowly? Modifiers change the meaning of the statement significantly. In this case, I'm suggesting that it could be interpreted as thus, not making a flat declaration. Perhaps a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:Sure, her Health Regen mote and Fire Rate mote is convenient to have around for Eidolon ... if you have no better option. But the fact is many better choices exist. Gara for one is better for Eidolons than Wisp is as she can protect her team and tank a lot of damage (especially when Adaptation is on her). You can even make a case for Octavia, Ivara, Limbo (yes, Limbo) and Mirage if the players using them know what they are doing. Wisp is behind all these frames, actually, and these are behind the Eidolon Meta of Trinity, Harrow, Oberon, Chroma, Volt, Rhino.
Also, any frame can do Sortie, Kuva Surv and Orbs, so long as it does enough damage and can mitigate enough damage.
I already acknowledged better choices exist for the niche case of Eidolons (though I wouldn't label any of your suggestions as any better than Wisp). The discussion here is not about Wisps' viability for Eidolons.
"Any frame can do x" can be applied to every Warframe in the game, assuming enough patience and suffering. It's also besides my point - that players are using Wisp rather often for high-difficulty content. It stands to reason that they do so for good reason.On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:Her 3rd ability is LoS restricted, and yes I even know you can double the areas by teleporting to the motes and make another area around the clone created by her 2. Calling her 1 shock stun a hard CC is as good as calling Volt's Shock or Oberon's Smite a hard CC - it isn't.
I clearly stated "Wisp lacks Non LoS restricted Hard CC", which Volt's 4 clearly is (examples of such "Hard" CC includes Vauban's Bastille, Vauban's Vortex, Inaros' Desiccate). Wisp's only Hard CC (aka freezes enemy there and makes them helpless for an extended duration) is her 3, and this is LoS restricted (similar to Excal's radial blind). Then her Shock Mote is a much softer CC with wonky targeting that may or may not CC what it needs to. It only targets up to 5 enemies per pulse and it doesn't actually last that long unless it keeps shocking the same 5 people.
I was not talking about soft CC, or all CC. I specifically mentioned the kind that completely locks the enemy down even through walls with certainty for extended time - Wisp does not have that, clearly. I know very well what I am getting from Wisp, since I am one of those players that bring her to all sorts of content.
LoS restriction is a rather minor point, here. In most situations it does not make a difference, particularly when it chains between enemies.
The shock status effect is a hard CC, as it stuns for a duration and chains between enemies. Volt can only proc it once per cast of Shock. Oberon's Smite inflicts a singular knockdown, again once per cast. Wisp's mote, on the other hand, continuously and potentially infinitely recasts this status effect, and it can 'multiply' in effect and AOE for every other ally Warframe that has that mote. Ergo, it qualifies as hard CC. (p.s. How is there any trouble targeting 'what it needs to' when it can target as many as 5 enemies at a time? In practice I've never seen this trouble with 'wonky targeting' that you speak of.)
Volt's 4 certainly qualifies as hard CC as well, because it also stuns for a duration and chains between enemies. But it costs significantly more energy and does not potentially have a duration of infinity. There's also a significant offset in 'ability heirarchy' when you're directly comparing a "1" ability to a "4", which are oftentimes called a Warframe's "ultimate".
Same rationale applies to her 3rd ability. Less energy, stuns multiple enemies for a duration, lower ability heirarchy, and can also unleash plenty of damage.
There are indeed some things Volt can do that Wisp cannot. I'll remind you again I did not made the claim "Volt is obsolete". But Wisp can bring much of Volt's utility to a team with just two thirds of her 1st ability, while also bringing other benefits that Volt cannot.On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:Wisp has nothing to do with this, really. You are misinterpreting what I write - Vauban, Nyx and Ember have embarrassing abilities with or without Wisp. There was no highlighting or comparison needed. Everyone knew these 3 needed a rework badly. Wisp's existence did nothing to change opinions of these frames, so long as you used them before.
My statement, if you read it properly, is that these frames themselves have deficiencies when it comes to usefulness in the game. You do not need to see Wisp (or any other frame) in action to know it. Gameplay would tell you enough.
What you first said, as a response to a portion of the OP, was "It is not Wisp's fault" - implying that that is what I had said in the OP. Who is misinterpreting whom, here?
Given that many Warframes have these embarassing abilities even now after Wisp and Wukong's rework, I have to disagree that "there was no highlighting or comparison needed". The more that we get appearances like Wisp and Wukong's rework, the more the constrast is going to stand out to players new and old alike, and that's probably not going to be a good thing unless DE takes action - not just by doing piecemeal, singular reworks, but by re-examining their approach across the board to Warframe ability design.
On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:With Switch Teleport and Decoy, he can bypass all the lasers that Wisp can bypass, without any timing issues. His disarm also goes through walls. Just because Loki doesn't heal himself, buff the team or shoot a giant laser doesn't make him lacking in capability compared to Wisp, really.
Wisp's invisibility breaks the moment you fire a gun and requires you to be airborne. Loki's invisibility doesn't and works even when you are running around. It can even silence your gun with an Augment.
I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch to call Wisp as true a stealth frame as others that have clear-cut 'invisibility mode' abilities - but her passive is a significant capability that most other Warframes that lack an 'invisibility mode' do not have. (Hell, it stands out just for being a passive that is useful.)
Decoy is risky for Spy, being that it randomly shoots at any enemies it can see, so it's really not the best way to deal with lasers, particularly if Sentry drones are on patrol. I'll admit I might underrate Disarm a little, but compared to what other Warframes have to offer I'd put it as one of the least impactful "4th" abilities available right now. None of his kit offers his team buffs or healing, 2 of them are dedicated to pure utility, and 1 is a plain-and-simple invisibility mode. Even if making use of his Augments, there's better choices for just about any content I can think of. (Should I remind you Banshee gets his augment as a passive?)
There's only one niche I use Loki for, and that's unlocking rivens that require you to complete a mission without killing anyone. I think that says something about his overall usefulness.
Bottom line, Wisp can do many more things than Loki can. He's fun for goofing around solo or showing off to other players what you can do with him (I know some 'oldschool' players swear by maining him), but in terms of general effectiveness he is definitely the lacking frame.
On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:Mesa is definitely much tankier than Wisp and can dish out a lot more damage via Peacemaker. If you are the kind that just stand there and be a turret of course you will find Peacemakers lacking and Mesa's mobility as poor. Not to mention Peacemakers functionally dish out a lot more status procs per second than Wisp's Sol Gate can hope to do.
Not to mention, Mesa can completely dump her range stat and needs much less power strength mods (Power Strength stacks in an additive manner with Hornet Strike for Mesa). Wisp can't unless you want to cripple her for the sake of Sol Gate power. The invulnerability Wisp has doesn't seem to scale much with duration, if it does at all.
To even compare Wisp, a Jack of All Trades frame with Mesa, a dedicated bullet hose, is kinda a silly one, especially when Mesa is outright superior at hosing enemies down. This is not something I even need to argue, because to make such a comparison and state Wisp is superior really takes the cake as completely ridiculous (and yes, Peacemaker's damage is functionally a cone, while Wisp's is functionally a line. This actually means Peacemaker has more AoE damage as well).
"Tankier" only against projectiles, not melee or AOE damage, and without any self-sustain. "Stand there and being a turret" is how Peacemaker works, you know....
None of Mesa's ability kit offers her more mobility, and without her augment, her 4th locks her in place. Yes, Peacemakers (through being moddable) can deal with high-end scaling better.
Her 1 is a one-shot self-damage-buff that in practice is difficult to make reliable use of. Her 2 and 3 are self-defensive in nature and offer only mild amounts of CC. Most of her prowess comes from the sheer raw AOE control of her 4th "stand there and be a turret" ability.
Comparitively speaking, she does far less than Wisp. Sure, she 'can' do without range and some power strength, but for what gains? Plus, taking away range removes what little CC and team support she can bring to the table.
Meanwhile, while Wisp's 4 suffers against high-end scaling, she gets to move & sprint without any augments while using it and while also doing all the other stuff I've already thoroughly described here. Functionally speaking she brings much more to the table.
It's not "silly" at all to compare, and to claim it as something you don't "even need to argue" is arrogantly presumptious. And wrong. Mesa is good fun to use and all, but the only thing she does is "pure DPS", and that's if her 4th ability works on the enemy in question, which more and more lately isn't the case.
p.s. Anybody who's used Mesa can tell you her "AoE cone" lasts about 2-3 seconds before effectively becoming the same punch-through line that Wisp's 4th ability is.On 2019-06-17 at 6:12 AM, Datam4ss said:100/100 in context of examinations. Top Score. Best Marks. Wisp is a girl that got B in all her subjects but she has no B+ or As.
A Warframe is only considered top tier at X if it can completely, utterly make X a joke, or is at least the best at dealing with X. Wisp is never the best at fulfilling any function, so to say she is really as "overpowered" as you claim her to be would be a lie.
I never said Wisp was weak. I only stated you exaggerate her capabilities far too much while understating the power of any other Warframe. She is like a band aid character - if you team lacks it she can provide it, but if your team has it she probably isn't the best for that.
So...context that only was provided inside your own head at the time of posting that. Okay then.
This discussion has never been about "top tier at X". It's about overall Warframe design as a whole, usefulness and capability in the game as a whole. And I haven't even used the term "overpowering" once, so who's creating lies?
You took a condescending attitude while misrepresenting much of my arguments, not "only" making a statement that you think I've overrated her capabilities here and there.
And, think of your own description of her as a "can do it all" Warframe. Isn't that exactly what I said at the start of the OP to begin with?-
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I feel like the majority of you read half of the title and none of my actual feelings about Wisp in the first post...?
On 2019-06-17 at 4:46 AM, Karu-QW said:How about you read the post of Datam4ss? Her heal is a weak version of Oberon's renewal. Her ultimate is one of the worst in the entire game. Willo the wisp costs a lot of energy if you keep spamming it. Breach surge is clunky and has low range(Being reliant on the reservoir teleports is just.. not good. Especially since that is also very clunky to use).
The only real good things about her are shock and haste motes. I never said she is bad, she just has a horrible design and she is like a lot of Warframes combined. But the complete overhype of her viability is just ridiculous.Her heal is not weaker. It doesn't require a second ability's synergy to get the full effect, and the health buff in many situations can be more beneficial than the armor, as Datam4ss has admitted themself.
Her ultimate had little problem dealing with enemies anywhere I took it to. I truely don't understand how you'd call that 'one of the worst in the game'. I question whether you've used it yourself?
The pods have not had significant energy cost for me at any point. I've very rarely, while playing Wisp, found myself wanting for energy.
The only 'clunky' part of Breach Surge is that it holds enemies in CC-stun for you and doesn't release its damage until you start killing. It's fairly intuitive. And the teleport aspect is precisely why she succeeds at objective defense (particularly interception).
I thoroughly disagree with your assessment of "horrible design".
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On 2019-06-17 at 6:19 AM, KenthNisshoku said:you know this is why DE release weak warframes because of people like you
they make a good viable frame and all of a sudden you say powercreep, overpowered, this one renders others useless & please nerf
i am sick of seeing threads like this ruining warframes bec one complains about how good this warframe is
we are now getting good warframes and now you want to break that streak and when the nerf happens you all complain on how useless the warframe is compared to others
for gods sake stop it and just dont use the warframe if its too good for you
and let others have fun for once
Nowhere did I use any of those words or phrases. Please read the post you're responding to before you reply to it.
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On 2019-06-17 at 7:16 AM, Marthrym said:Same old tired song... "This new FOTM frame makes these other frames obsolete! Oh the humanities! Think of the children!"
The frames OP mentions don't need Wisp as comparison to feel underwhelming : they just ARE. Because the game changed, while they did not. They all have the same thing in common : they didn't follow the tide, forgotten/ignored by DE. Wisp changes nothing to their situation. If anything, this is just yet another huge spotlight shone on Warframe's already glaring balance issues accross the board. Nerfing this frame won't make all those other frames more viable/better or relevant. Reworking/buffing/bringing THEM up to the current game's "meta" or whatever instead WILL.
I can't believe it's still too hard a concept to grasp : don't break what little there is that works, fix what doesn't before it piles up so high it ends up looking like a mountain. So much is broken and outdated in this game, and yet we still see this type of thread demanding things that perform well be brought down to the level of those that can't perform at all as if it was going to make them perform better instead. It won't. Let's focus on the frames that need help instead of those that don't, shall we?
Many do feel underwhelming, some do not. But that's rather the point of the question posed in the OP, highlighted in bold.
I actually concur that they've been neglected by changes in DE's design mindset, and as you say, highlights glaring balance issues. As you might see in the OP, I too would prefer they bring other Warframes up to this level.
But nowhere did I "demand things that perform well be brought down to the level of those that can't perform at all"._
On 2019-06-19 at 4:05 AM, AlphaPsyCongaroo said:Not even close. She fails at objective defense, which is weird to see you list that as her strength. Her vitality mote doesn’t heal objectives, which makes her sub-optimal for about 75-90% of the games content. She isn’t even good on eidolon hunts. you make some comparisons to oberion, but id much rather have an oberion in a tridolon team than a wisp since he has a lot of other useful tools that wisp doesn’t have. (healing and armor for lures, status prevention, etc. he has even more survivability than trinity.)
So that leaves what? interception and survival missions she may be good at, but that’s it. And maybe free-roaming. But then again most other frames are good or better than wisp at those too, so ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯.
She does quite well at interception, 'static' defense, and mobile defense. The only objective defense she might struggle to shield the objective for is Excavation, and that's a trait shared by most Warframes that aren't Frost, Limbo, or Khora. (I wish I could include Atlas but his wall sizes are so comically small as to be generally not worth speaking of except in specific tilesets.) *Note: Rescue is an escort mission, not objective defense.
Rescues & certain Defense mission types are nowhere close to being "75-90% of the games content".
Eidolon hunts are quite "niche". Many Warframes also don't fit well into that niche. Oberon does indeed fit that niche better, lately I've been using him rather than Harrow for Tridolon running.
I'm not certain how anything about her kit is particularly beneficial for Survival mode, but it's not like any Warframe will struggle in it anyway.
_On 2019-06-19 at 8:56 AM, Keylan118 said:You realize OP is literally saying the opposite and wants more frames like this, right?
Oh, somebody DID actually read what I wrote! Thank you.
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9 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:
You would think that but the spider is way easier to kill and Toroids are easier then they were initially to farm, with you able to get all of them you will need an an hour at most of farming each type from their respective locations excluding the big one. Eidolons are much more time consuming and cores are less abundant then the Toroids in general even. So I don't know why you think the Quills is easier but whatever floats your boat...
Ranking up with the Quills was quite smooth for me. The only difficult part was collecting all the darn wisps, and that's since been addressed by D.E. That and the daily cap felt like the only 'hurdles' getting in my way.
Note that there's never a hurdle with the Quills that can *only* be gotten over by reptition of pure RNG on a singular drop from a mission loot table.... -
I don't care about making use of maiming strike. That's on D.E. for putting it there.
What I dislike is seeing obvious macro users that have 2-3 different attack speed mods on spamming spin attacks endlessly around the map. -
46 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:
Actually False. Wisp cannot give armor, does not have Phoenix Renewal, cannot cleanse status, cannot put hallowed ground to block status.
Not saying Oberon doesn't need buffs, because I would welcome them, but he is not completely irrelevant yet.
You are joking right? Wisp can only boost speed. Volt has a lot of other things she cannot do, like the damage buffing shield. You are free to try Wisp on Eidolon. She won't really be the best there.
Also, I doubt she has AoE non LoS hard CC over massive area that also does a lot of damage. While Volt's Speed does need to last a lot longer and Shock needs a huge damage update, Wisp is not close to making Volt obsolete.
Is already Semi Obsolete thanks to DE making everything CC immune
It is not Wisp's fault. Vauban is just undertuned and he just got thrown under the bus. Even without Wisp, he was already close to being irrelevant when his powers kept getting nerfed directly or indirectly.
And yes, DE IS giving him a rework. Hopefully they do not mess up.
Loki still does the stealth Schtick better and is still easier to use in Spy
So no.
Nyx is another one like Vauban - CC kept getting nerfed directly or indirectly. It's not even that Wisp upstaged her or anything, she just became bad.
The so called Rework fixed nothing, really.
You are high.
I don't even need to explain this.
Ember is just bad thanks to all the nerfs. Same problem like Nyx and Vauban - she just got nerfed, except in her case it is more direct.
Without Wisp, Ember still sucks thanks to DE completely gutting her.
You are overstating her power. Wisp can do everything, yes, but she cannot do it on a 100/100 level. She is an actual Jack of All trades frame which can somewhat cheese any mission but can't completely trivialize challenges with absolute power.
Not false, you've simply taken it a little too literally. It grants health + health regen. I haven't done the math on the effective health of Oberon's armor buff vs Wisp's health buff (surely somebody will at some point), but in practice the effect is much the same. And I didn't include mention of the augment, nor of Oberon's 2 ability. The comparison is, as I stated in the OP, with his 3rd ability with the synergetic buff from his 2, nothing more.
Oberon doesn't need buffs. The only thing he lacks is a damage buff, really, and that would catapult him into "S-tier" so to speak. But that's neither here nor there for this topic.
You are both incorrect and again missing the finer points of my comparison regarding her 1's buff mote. It buffs weapon fire rate, it's very apparent any time you have that buff (I don't know how you wouldn't know of it?), and the comparison is specifically with Volt's 2. Naturally there's certain niche things other Warframes can do that Wisp cannot, that's really not a good point where overall ability design is concerned. Ivara is the absolute best for Spy missions because her augment means she can pass through lasers, but that doesn't remove the value of stealth capability for all other Warframes.
And lastly, I have indeed noticed Wisps more and more in challenging 'endgame' content like Sorties, Kuva Siphons, and the Orbs. Yes, without a status-clear or raw damage buff, she wouldn't fit as well for Eidolons as certain others, but even then her abilities would carry better value than most other alternatives.
You "doubt" whether she has AOE CC? Have you used Wisp? It's starting to sound like you haven't.
Both in her 1's shock-stun ability spread around every teammate, and in her 3rd ability, she has ample amounts of AOE crowd control. Both of which also do significant amounts of damage. In a sense, her 2 drawing aggro adds some mild CC as well. This is from my own first-hand experience using her and witnessing other players use it.
Volt's abilities have more than plenty duration when you don't make sacrifices for strength/range, and I didn't state that Wisp definitively makes Volt obsolete...read what I said. There is a suggestion of the thought, yes, but nothing further.
In a quick comparison of her full kit versus Volt's, she can do everything Volt can do and more. There's some niches Volt can fill that she cannot, as a result of how his shield and 4th ability works - but in the more general sense she is the more capable Warframe.
I never made the claim it's "Wisp's fault" that Vauban has issues. It would be prudent of you not to confuse yourself whilst reading what I've written. I said that Wisp makes his abilities look embarassing. In other words, her ability kit highlights his deficiencies. This applies to Nyx, Ember, and any other similar comparisons made.
Loki has his stealth ability, sure, but...it's functionally not much better than Wisp's passive (if you can manage to stay airborne, particularly with wall-clinging involved). Easier to use, sure, but his kit is severely lacking in overall capability, especially in comparison to Wisp.
"You are high" is not an argument. If you pursue that manner of speaking to me, you'll quickly find I have short patience for that.
I don't really know what 100/100 level is supposed to mean, it doesn't match any context of Warframe I'm familiar with. And I don't quite understand your final point, either - is a Warframe no good, in your book, unless it can "completely trivialize challenges with absolute power"? Because where overall Warframe balance and design is concerned, focusing on niche gimmicks and shenanigans is going to quickly distract and derail the focus away from where it needs to be: considering overall capability and effectiveness in balance with existing Warframes and their own capabilities & overall effectiveness. -
I'd rather it get an augment that grants both 'halves' of the ability regardless of where you're standing, just perhaps with lower 'strength' of each effect to compensate. Most of the time I'm looking for that damage buff, not the survivability, yet there's also never enough of survivability, so...I'd rather just have both at once. There's just too many things making the light vs. dark thing inconsistent and inconvenient to deal with.
Defense mode adjustment IMO
in Missions & Levels
Posted
Yeah, I've felt for a long time that 5 waves is out of line. Should be 2-3 waves, tops. Same amount of enemies if you want, just get away from the repetition.