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4thBro

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  1. If we had the content, then the entire community could freely participate and give feedback. The fact that there is not any max level content makes such content still clouded in mystery for most of the community AS WELL AS the developers. For example, I have two remarks to your Loki/Ash/Gating comment: 1) While mostly true, I overall disagree. There are some Health/Armor Frames that can survive it, but it requires actually trying. (And I believe that's the disconnect; most players don't want to try, but do still want the maximum-perceived victories.) That being said, I had struggled as a Nidus with 95% Link, maybe 2k armor, and Adaptation. I was being 1-shot by Detron Crewmen around level 2000 in Duviri. Now, to be fair, I could possibly achieve higher armor (esp now with shards), Adaptation is kind of like "fake survival" cuz of ramp-up, and I could venture into something else instead, like Null Star Helminth. (Which would probably be required on most Health/Armor attempts.) But overall, our mixed points come across here. People need to try a little harder than bare minimum, but also, yes, max level is pretty absurd and tends to require "cheese". 2) I used to hate Shield Gating on principle. But I've come to let that bitterness go, and I've embraced it in order to play more Frames at higher level. I don't think it should be that way, but since it is, I think the "try harder than bare minimum" applies here as well. Pretty much any Frame can be used at max level content due to Shield Gating. It just sometimes requires some extra planning - which, IMO, build design skill is an intended skill to have in Warframe (but with the lacking content to test those skills). But that being SAID, keep in mind, even with "Shield Gate cheese," if I'm playing someone like Mirage for example... I still have to play well. The gameplay is still engaging, because if I slip up just once, I die. And ALL of that being said... To restate my point; if max level content became easily accessible, then the game could actually start receiving the balance tweaks that it needs. And in 99% of the timelines across the multiverse, this is done in a way that has no negative affect/collateral damage on anyone whatsoever.
  2. Yes, if I was playing with my friends and we were all on day 1. No, if I'm in current day, playing with anyone. A person couldn't spend any amount of money to then perform better than I can. And that's because I've simply passed the point of having all of my loadout slots filled. It's an advantage, for your OWN self, compared to an alternate universe where you DON'T spend that money to speed it all up. However, no, it's not an advantage over other players. That's how I see it. Yes, for sure, I agree with this. Maybe it was irksome of me to do that. But I did that cuz it is off-topic, but consuming about 2.5 pages of this thread at the moment. (And I honestly thought I presented a globally-agreeable position on it.)
  3. I want to add a slight errata to this: Some games are pay to save so much time that they ARE pay to win, in regards to... while you can get all this stuff in-game without paying, the time required to do so is too high to be feasible (maybe even literally impossible), so I accept that as pay to win as well. This becomes a bit of a subjective definition at this point (which no true definition should be subjective), but I think "pay to win" almost has to be subjective, or else even cosmetics can be considered pay to win for multiple reasons. ---------- Thinking of another angle here, consider this for P2W's definition in WF: When you enter a mission, you have a finite amount of things that you are bringing into it. Your Frame, your weapons, your Operator schools, your pet... whatever else I may be forgetting. But that's it. That's all! Nothing else. And what this means is that the collective assets that you bring took no more than X amount of time to acquire and build up. Now let's say you want to try out a different weapon. But you don't want to do the whole process normally. So you spend plat (which you bought with money) to speed up the process as much as possible. You now hop into your games with this new weapon instead of the old weapon. X amount of time does not change in this formula. In other words... You can sit there and spend a thousand dollars on plat and speed-boost all the weapons and Frames you want. But this is not adding to your overall power! You are merely switching out one thing in favor of a different thing. In theory, even though you put maybe thousands of dollars into the game speeding things up, you are NO STRONGER than someone who decided to use your current loadout from day 1, and whom doesn't have hundreds of unused assets sitting on the bench during this mission. Aka, your background assets are muted in Warframe. They aren't contributing to your strength. In this regard, while Warframe does very much have pay to save time, it isn't even CLOSE to being in the realm that I mentioned above, where the time you save is so potent that you really are pulling ahead. Because you AREN'T pulling ahead, in Warframe. You're just changing your mind on what loadout you're using, without wanting to spend another 3 days waiting for it in the Foundry, or the Formas, or this or that... Etc. Does this make sense? Can we put this discussion to rest?
  4. I wish more people said this. If we assumed the devs did what they should, then YES, having max level content would highlight imbalances, and the devs could tweak the game accordingly. (And we SHOULD assume devs will do as they should, or else what's the point in ANY discussion at all whatsoever?) ... As for this P2W discussion, can we nip this in the bud? Pay to win is different from pay to save time. Warframe has the latter. Paying to win is if you can get something in the game with money that you CANNOT get otherwise. And, trust me, there ARE games that have this. Those are pay to win. But Warframe has pay to win as much as retail WoW has pay to win by character boosting. Aka, it's not pay to win. That being said, if you have issues with pay to save time, then just say that. It's okay, it's fine, you're allowed to have an issue with that. I don't have an issue with it myself, but I understand the perspective. However, don't call an apple an orange, and say you hate oranges.
  5. Uhhh... okay. I mean, you said it yourself. They would be the same thing. You would rather 1+3=4 instead of 2+2=4. And I don't really understand why. In fact, is it not much easier to just add max level enemy content, than to READJUST EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE GAME so that Steel Path was that very same measurement? It feels like you're just being contrarian, and aren't seeing the bullet wound in your own foot.
  6. That would be a neat thing, yes. I want *something.* There are a lot of iterations I would be happy with. We are not a hard crowd to please! We just currently have... nothing. Even if it was a dragon key, and had NO scoreboard at all. At least then I can create my own content, maybe through YT, make my own challenges, have my own community keeping score. That sort of thing. But when the only way to face those enemies is either waiting around for 8 hours (actively staying alive in the mission rather than minimizing in the background), or having my loadout randomized, yeah, that's the same as nothing! Lol. ---------- I also want to note... It's not like we barged into Mariokart and are trying to get Halo content out of it. You know what I mean? Warframe teases high end content, and almost promises it through implication. And then it just never shows up. So I think that's an important distinction to make. Well, guess I'm going back to the shadows, hoping for that fabled content update someday.
  7. I dunno if you're talking about normal rifts or greater rifts, but - for all the bad of D3 - greater rifts were one of the best things in all of video gaming. Something that I wish many games would adopt. And it would go greatly in WF. This is literally no different than playing WF for any other reason. Every reason has an end point. For every game. However, with something like a greater rift mechanic, you can always strive to beat the #1, since the goal is ever-advancing. Even if YOU are #1! You can always strive to beat your own previous best, #1 or otherwise. Grifts make for a GREAT eternal endgame goal, and it would greatly improve WF for anyone that wanted that content. And it would have no affect on anyone that didn't. Just like every other type of content WF has that you may not enjoy. (I hate Excavations. Guess what? I also never have to do them. Even for Cryotic, I seem to do just fine without ever farming Exca. Just for one example.)
  8. And the only reason not to fight level capped enemies is to say, "Look at me, I can clean out this level so quickly because I'm such a badass!" You see how it's the same thing? Not necessarily. I get what you're trying to say. But don't look to that as the measurement of anything. For example, I'm MR16. ... And I've been MR16 for like 5 years or more? I hate Mastery. I hate it with a passion, and I literally avoid doing it. I don't want to level a bunch of things I have no interest in. MR above 16 doesn't even do anything useful for me, either, so why would I raise it? I'm sitting on god knows how many Mastery tests, but I won't take them. The amount of MR25+ players that I've seen, that are bumbling around, failing the Archon Spy mission, dying in Steel Path, etc etc...... it's a lot. Yeah this is starting to remind me of auction house discussions. People want to gatekeep it, but they don't really know why. They say they're afraid that if max level content was more accessible (rather than EFFECTIVELY being a hidden mechanic, like it is right now), then more players would participate in it, and then the game would focus more on it. All this fear tells me is that players are enjoying being bad at the game but still able to perform well in Normal Mode content. And they enjoy things like Alerts being level 10 enemies, etc, things like that. They're afraid that if more miscellaneous things became higher level, they won't get their free stuff as much... or something to that nature. Of course we know the many problems with this logic. But, ultimately, they don't want their comfort taken away from them. They want to keep stacking inefficient damage multipliers and lazy survival numbers, and keep top end results. And why wouldn't they? Most people in games are like this.
  9. Yeah, see, you're completely missing the point I'm making. Like, strangely so. Kuva Survival IS the highest level enemies in the game. ... ... ... if we never added things like Steel Path. My video is a mockery of an alternate universe where the game is the way YOU want it. This is what we would be looking at. You could go into missions NAKED as half the Frames in the game and be fine. You think you need shield gating to survive Steel Path? Do you WANT me to make another video??? I can easily show you, again, a Titania build that takes on Steel Path, WITHOUT abilities, WITHOUT shield gating. ANY weapon you want me to use. The whole point is that it's not fun ragdolling defenseless critters, except for maybe like 60 seconds. But that can't be what the whole game is. But that IS what it is, if we don't have high level enemies. And all I want is to have that. And there are INFINITE ways to include it in a way that doesn't interfere with players that just want to ragdoll defenseless critters for 8 hours a day.
  10. My video follow-up: Additional response: In regards to rewards and efficiency... I don't think the whole picture was really looked at. Let's say level cap enemies gave you a +10% reward bonus compared to, say, regular Steel Path. This doesn't now magically make it the optimal farm. This is a short-sighted response. Against regular Steel Path enemies, you can almost certainly kill them (aka farm speed) MUCH faster. Not only that, but MUCH more care free, no matter who you are or what build you're playing. This adds or subtracts to overall efficiency. And, guaranteed, something as low as +10% rewards for level cap will still keep it from being the most optimal.
  11. Well... no. Because everything is randomized. I used to play it a lot, but it got boring when I'm actually just using Operator most of the time because the weapon choices are all terrible. I don't want randomized loadouts. I want to pick my loadouts. I want to play the builds that I... built. Just like you wouldn't want to play a Diablo 2 character that had their skill points and gear slots randomly allocated. I used to play Disruptions for hours. I never saw them even hit, like... level 500??
  12. Every now and then, I express my issue with WF. This is another one of those times. I do not currently play Warframe, because there still is no good method of facing max level enemies. It's that simple. Why does this matter to me? Well, let me ask you a question. When you play another game, let's say World of Warcraft... Do you spend your time running dungeons 60 levels lower than your character? Or do you do things at the highest level your character can do? Here's a different angle... If you were to play CSGO... would you rather your opponents all have 100 HP and deal normal damage? Or all have 1 HP and deal 5% damage? The purpose of building your character strength in Warframe is lost in the game itself. It is never tested. The game has what I call an "Extract At 5" culture. And that culture came out of a lack of any reason to do otherwise. Here I am, with high levels of character strength. That's what I enjoy! I want to push the limits and test my creations. And if my creations succeed against the strongest the game has to offer, then I also enjoy playing it out as well. (Which can also be seen as ongoing testing.) However... in Warframe, you cannot simply face strong enemies. The quickest way to do so is through Duviri, but your entire loadout is randomized. Outside of that, I believe the quickest way is in Void missions, but 1) that takes a while to ramp up still, and 2) those mission types frequently force you into Operator mode, which accidentally limits your Frames due to the "anti-afk" mechanics that I've already made a thread about once before. (Certain Frames being ripped out of Operator because of the wonky mechanics that make some Frames vulnerable during Operator while you're trying to do things for the mission type that CAN ONLY be done in Operator.) --But, we're all well aware of how inaccessible high level enemies are. I don't need to keep expressing this point. However... that's all I want! To me, Warframe is a game with no purpose at the moment. The purpose is to work on your Frames and build up strength, for........... what, exactly? These level 150 enemies aren't testing anything. I can basically throw on 8 randomized mods and slam that content without even paying attention to my screen. So what's the point? Surely - surely - there must be a way to implement max level content for people like me. I'm not even asking for heightened rewards. I just don't have any fulfillment making my character as strong as I can make it, and then the only enemies in the game all drop dead to my mere existence because they're basically level 1. Okay. That's my piece. That's what I got. My only request is to not come at this topic with disingenuous replies. Cheers, peace!
  13. Does it just make them shoot somewhere that isn't where I am at? That's my assumption. And if that's the case... won't that, at least semi-often, contradict itself if I'm moving, and they are aiming at where I AM in that moment, but they shoot somewhere else... but since I'm MOVING, I'm actually moving into it, making enemies accidentally properly lead their shots so that they actually do hit me??? I dunno if some enemies are hit scan, which I suppose would make inaccuracy good against them in particular, but anything with projectile speed, I have to wonder.
  14. I know how it works. My joke here is that I have so many Navs and Voids compared to the other Bile materials, so that's what the boy gets for dinner every night. I figured that woulda been a generally universally shared statement, but maybe not. :P
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