4thBro

If we had the content, then the entire community could freely participate and give feedback. The fact that there is not any max level content makes such content still clouded in mystery for most of the community AS WELL AS the developers. For example, I have two remarks to your Loki/Ash/Gating comment: 1) While mostly true, I overall disagree. There are some Health/Armor Frames that can survive it, but it requires actually trying. (And I believe that's the disconnect; most players don't want to try, but do still want the maximum-perceived victories.) That being said, I had struggled as a Nidus with 95% Link, maybe 2k armor, and Adaptation. I was being 1-shot by Detron Crewmen around level 2000 in Duviri. Now, to be fair, I could possibly achieve higher armor (esp now with shards), Adaptation is kind of like "fake survival" cuz of ramp-up, and I could venture into something else instead, like Null Star Helminth. (Which would probably be required on most Health/Armor attempts.) But overall, our mixed points come across here. People need to try a little harder than bare minimum, but also, yes, max level is pretty absurd and tends to require "cheese". 2) I used to hate Shield Gating on principle. But I've come to let that bitterness go, and I've embraced it in order to play more Frames at higher level. I don't think it should be that way, but since it is, I think the "try harder than bare minimum" applies here as well. Pretty much any Frame can be used at max level content due to Shield Gating. It just sometimes requires some extra planning - which, IMO, build design skill is an intended skill to have in Warframe (but with the lacking content to test those skills). But that being SAID, keep in mind, even with "Shield Gate cheese," if I'm playing someone like Mirage for example... I still have to play well. The gameplay is still engaging, because if I slip up just once, I die. And ALL of that being said... To restate my point; if max level content became easily accessible, then the game could actually start receiving the balance tweaks that it needs. And in 99% of the timelines across the multiverse, this is done in a way that has no negative affect/collateral damage on anyone whatsoever.

Yes, if I was playing with my friends and we were all on day 1. No, if I'm in current day, playing with anyone. A person couldn't spend any amount of money to then perform better than I can. And that's because I've simply passed the point of having all of my loadout slots filled. It's an advantage, for your OWN self, compared to an alternate universe where you DON'T spend that money to speed it all up. However, no, it's not an advantage over other players. That's how I see it. Yes, for sure, I agree with this. Maybe it was irksome of me to do that. But I did that cuz it is off-topic, but consuming about 2.5 pages of this thread at the moment. (And I honestly thought I presented a globally-agreeable position on it.)

I want to add a slight errata to this: Some games are pay to save so much time that they ARE pay to win, in regards to... while you can get all this stuff in-game without paying, the time required to do so is too high to be feasible (maybe even literally impossible), so I accept that as pay to win as well. This becomes a bit of a subjective definition at this point (which no true definition should be subjective), but I think "pay to win" almost has to be subjective, or else even cosmetics can be considered pay to win for multiple reasons. ---------- Thinking of another angle here, consider this for P2W's definition in WF: When you enter a mission, you have a finite amount of things that you are bringing into it. Your Frame, your weapons, your Operator schools, your pet... whatever else I may be forgetting. But that's it. That's all! Nothing else. And what this means is that the collective assets that you bring took no more than X amount of time to acquire and build up. Now let's say you want to try out a different weapon. But you don't want to do the whole process normally. So you spend plat (which you bought with money) to speed up the process as much as possible. You now hop into your games with this new weapon instead of the old weapon. X amount of time does not change in this formula. In other words... You can sit there and spend a thousand dollars on plat and speed-boost all the weapons and Frames you want. But this is not adding to your overall power! You are merely switching out one thing in favor of a different thing. In theory, even though you put maybe thousands of dollars into the game speeding things up, you are NO STRONGER than someone who decided to use your current loadout from day 1, and whom doesn't have hundreds of unused assets sitting on the bench during this mission. Aka, your background assets are muted in Warframe. They aren't contributing to your strength. In this regard, while Warframe does very much have pay to save time, it isn't even CLOSE to being in the realm that I mentioned above, where the time you save is so potent that you really are pulling ahead. Because you AREN'T pulling ahead, in Warframe. You're just changing your mind on what loadout you're using, without wanting to spend another 3 days waiting for it in the Foundry, or the Formas, or this or that... Etc. Does this make sense? Can we put this discussion to rest?

I wish more people said this. If we assumed the devs did what they should, then YES, having max level content would highlight imbalances, and the devs could tweak the game accordingly. (And we SHOULD assume devs will do as they should, or else what's the point in ANY discussion at all whatsoever?) ... As for this P2W discussion, can we nip this in the bud? Pay to win is different from pay to save time. Warframe has the latter. Paying to win is if you can get something in the game with money that you CANNOT get otherwise. And, trust me, there ARE games that have this. Those are pay to win. But Warframe has pay to win as much as retail WoW has pay to win by character boosting. Aka, it's not pay to win. That being said, if you have issues with pay to save time, then just say that. It's okay, it's fine, you're allowed to have an issue with that. I don't have an issue with it myself, but I understand the perspective. However, don't call an apple an orange, and say you hate oranges.

Uhhh... okay. I mean, you said it yourself. They would be the same thing. You would rather 1+3=4 instead of 2+2=4. And I don't really understand why. In fact, is it not much easier to just add max level enemy content, than to READJUST EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE GAME so that Steel Path was that very same measurement? It feels like you're just being contrarian, and aren't seeing the bullet wound in your own foot.

That would be a neat thing, yes. I want *something.* There are a lot of iterations I would be happy with. We are not a hard crowd to please! We just currently have... nothing. Even if it was a dragon key, and had NO scoreboard at all. At least then I can create my own content, maybe through YT, make my own challenges, have my own community keeping score. That sort of thing. But when the only way to face those enemies is either waiting around for 8 hours (actively staying alive in the mission rather than minimizing in the background), or having my loadout randomized, yeah, that's the same as nothing! Lol. ---------- I also want to note... It's not like we barged into Mariokart and are trying to get Halo content out of it. You know what I mean? Warframe teases high end content, and almost promises it through implication. And then it just never shows up. So I think that's an important distinction to make. Well, guess I'm going back to the shadows, hoping for that fabled content update someday.

I dunno if you're talking about normal rifts or greater rifts, but - for all the bad of D3 - greater rifts were one of the best things in all of video gaming. Something that I wish many games would adopt. And it would go greatly in WF. This is literally no different than playing WF for any other reason. Every reason has an end point. For every game. However, with something like a greater rift mechanic, you can always strive to beat the #1, since the goal is ever-advancing. Even if YOU are #1! You can always strive to beat your own previous best, #1 or otherwise. Grifts make for a GREAT eternal endgame goal, and it would greatly improve WF for anyone that wanted that content. And it would have no affect on anyone that didn't. Just like every other type of content WF has that you may not enjoy. (I hate Excavations. Guess what? I also never have to do them. Even for Cryotic, I seem to do just fine without ever farming Exca. Just for one example.)

And the only reason not to fight level capped enemies is to say, "Look at me, I can clean out this level so quickly because I'm such a badass!" You see how it's the same thing? Not necessarily. I get what you're trying to say. But don't look to that as the measurement of anything. For example, I'm MR16. ... And I've been MR16 for like 5 years or more? I hate Mastery. I hate it with a passion, and I literally avoid doing it. I don't want to level a bunch of things I have no interest in. MR above 16 doesn't even do anything useful for me, either, so why would I raise it? I'm sitting on god knows how many Mastery tests, but I won't take them. The amount of MR25+ players that I've seen, that are bumbling around, failing the Archon Spy mission, dying in Steel Path, etc etc...... it's a lot. Yeah this is starting to remind me of auction house discussions. People want to gatekeep it, but they don't really know why. They say they're afraid that if max level content was more accessible (rather than EFFECTIVELY being a hidden mechanic, like it is right now), then more players would participate in it, and then the game would focus more on it. All this fear tells me is that players are enjoying being bad at the game but still able to perform well in Normal Mode content. And they enjoy things like Alerts being level 10 enemies, etc, things like that. They're afraid that if more miscellaneous things became higher level, they won't get their free stuff as much... or something to that nature. Of course we know the many problems with this logic. But, ultimately, they don't want their comfort taken away from them. They want to keep stacking inefficient damage multipliers and lazy survival numbers, and keep top end results. And why wouldn't they? Most people in games are like this.

Yeah, see, you're completely missing the point I'm making. Like, strangely so. Kuva Survival IS the highest level enemies in the game. ... ... ... if we never added things like Steel Path. My video is a mockery of an alternate universe where the game is the way YOU want it. This is what we would be looking at. You could go into missions NAKED as half the Frames in the game and be fine. You think you need shield gating to survive Steel Path? Do you WANT me to make another video??? I can easily show you, again, a Titania build that takes on Steel Path, WITHOUT abilities, WITHOUT shield gating. ANY weapon you want me to use. The whole point is that it's not fun ragdolling defenseless critters, except for maybe like 60 seconds. But that can't be what the whole game is. But that IS what it is, if we don't have high level enemies. And all I want is to have that. And there are INFINITE ways to include it in a way that doesn't interfere with players that just want to ragdoll defenseless critters for 8 hours a day.

My video follow-up: Additional response: In regards to rewards and efficiency... I don't think the whole picture was really looked at. Let's say level cap enemies gave you a +10% reward bonus compared to, say, regular Steel Path. This doesn't now magically make it the optimal farm. This is a short-sighted response. Against regular Steel Path enemies, you can almost certainly kill them (aka farm speed) MUCH faster. Not only that, but MUCH more care free, no matter who you are or what build you're playing. This adds or subtracts to overall efficiency. And, guaranteed, something as low as +10% rewards for level cap will still keep it from being the most optimal.

Well... no. Because everything is randomized. I used to play it a lot, but it got boring when I'm actually just using Operator most of the time because the weapon choices are all terrible. I don't want randomized loadouts. I want to pick my loadouts. I want to play the builds that I... built. Just like you wouldn't want to play a Diablo 2 character that had their skill points and gear slots randomly allocated. I used to play Disruptions for hours. I never saw them even hit, like... level 500??

Every now and then, I express my issue with WF. This is another one of those times. I do not currently play Warframe, because there still is no good method of facing max level enemies. It's that simple. Why does this matter to me? Well, let me ask you a question. When you play another game, let's say World of Warcraft... Do you spend your time running dungeons 60 levels lower than your character? Or do you do things at the highest level your character can do? Here's a different angle... If you were to play CSGO... would you rather your opponents all have 100 HP and deal normal damage? Or all have 1 HP and deal 5% damage? The purpose of building your character strength in Warframe is lost in the game itself. It is never tested. The game has what I call an "Extract At 5" culture. And that culture came out of a lack of any reason to do otherwise. Here I am, with high levels of character strength. That's what I enjoy! I want to push the limits and test my creations. And if my creations succeed against the strongest the game has to offer, then I also enjoy playing it out as well. (Which can also be seen as ongoing testing.) However... in Warframe, you cannot simply face strong enemies. The quickest way to do so is through Duviri, but your entire loadout is randomized. Outside of that, I believe the quickest way is in Void missions, but 1) that takes a while to ramp up still, and 2) those mission types frequently force you into Operator mode, which accidentally limits your Frames due to the "anti-afk" mechanics that I've already made a thread about once before. (Certain Frames being ripped out of Operator because of the wonky mechanics that make some Frames vulnerable during Operator while you're trying to do things for the mission type that CAN ONLY be done in Operator.) --But, we're all well aware of how inaccessible high level enemies are. I don't need to keep expressing this point. However... that's all I want! To me, Warframe is a game with no purpose at the moment. The purpose is to work on your Frames and build up strength, for........... what, exactly? These level 150 enemies aren't testing anything. I can basically throw on 8 randomized mods and slam that content without even paying attention to my screen. So what's the point? Surely - surely - there must be a way to implement max level content for people like me. I'm not even asking for heightened rewards. I just don't have any fulfillment making my character as strong as I can make it, and then the only enemies in the game all drop dead to my mere existence because they're basically level 1. Okay. That's my piece. That's what I got. My only request is to not come at this topic with disingenuous replies. Cheers, peace!

Does it just make them shoot somewhere that isn't where I am at? That's my assumption. And if that's the case... won't that, at least semi-often, contradict itself if I'm moving, and they are aiming at where I AM in that moment, but they shoot somewhere else... but since I'm MOVING, I'm actually moving into it, making enemies accidentally properly lead their shots so that they actually do hit me??? I dunno if some enemies are hit scan, which I suppose would make inaccuracy good against them in particular, but anything with projectile speed, I have to wonder.

I know how it works. My joke here is that I have so many Navs and Voids compared to the other Bile materials, so that's what the boy gets for dinner every night. I figured that woulda been a generally universally shared statement, but maybe not. :P

Weird request. We could have bullet jumps and jump kicks do 12 billion damage and they'd still be an absolute garbage tier method of dealing damage.

Bruh... Sortie level????????

You HAVE to facetank them. YOU AREN'T IN CONTROL OF YOUR FRAME WHILE YOU ARE IN OPERATOR MODE. And because of the mechanic that YOU are so vehemently defending, your Frame ALSO isn't invulnerable while you're in Operator mode. You LITERALLY have no choice but to facetank them. On your Frame. That you have no control over. Have you even played any Zariman missions??? Actual question at this point. ACTUAL question at this point. Please answer it. Void Cascades aren't the only example of the grievances of vulnerable Frames. Void Angels also highlight the issue. In both of these scenarios, you are F.O.R.C.E.D. to use your Operator. I don't know how many times I have to stress this. You are F.O.R.C.E.D. to use your Operator. And the objectives you have to take care of on your Operator take anywhere from 10 to 100 seconds, generally speaking. I'm not "TRYING" to facetank level 2000 Thraxes. I'm TRYING to play the game. And the GAME FORCES me to facetank level 2000 Thraxes. Which I cannot do on most Frames. Which makes me come to the forums and make a thread about it. Which makes me realize just how few people are also playing this game's content, and have no idea of the game's issues. While they defend the game's... ... ... issues. And protect... the game's issues. (So. Freaking. Weird.) Semantics. I don't care what you wanna call it, or what label you wanna staple onto my words so that you can have an easier time dismissing them. What I'm doing is calling out a very big issue with the game. That's it. That's all. It's very simple. Have fun with your stapler. That's not changing my original stance at all, lol. At best, it's adding a patch note... Correct, my original statement was just... "Frames should be invulnerable." Plain and simple. FRANKLY, I see no issue with just that. Even with all the "exploits" you're all crying about, these "exploits" seem so inconsequential to me... Oh no, some guy is farming sub-optimally!... Oh no!... HOWEVER, if it's such a concern to everyone else, then I have no issue adding to my statement. "Frames should be invulnerable, and have no influence on allies or enemies." This is still effectively the same statement. The first version of the statement doesn't EXCLUDE the possibility of the second version of the statement. That's why it's totally ludicrous for you to try to backtrack right now by saying the two statements are "totally different," and that I "changed my tune". Again: We both know what you're doing. Stop doing it. I read everything, and if I didn't respond, then I thought it to be even less relevant than the... ... irrelevant things I've already responded to. But okay, let's see... I'll go back and respond directly to whatever you said about the economics of it. (This, I assume?) I mean... these are just things. These are just things that you can get in the game called Warframe. Yeah, sure. I guess bots that use Void Mode can get these. But bots that DO ANYTHING can get these. WHY ARE WE ONLY TARGETING VOID MODE??? It's so WEIRD. It's so MIND-BLOWINGLY short-sighted. It's so absolutely BONKERS, that any example I think of is going to sound stupid as hell. Because of COURSE it will. Because the situation that it's IMITATING is stupid as hell. Oh, too much street violence? The last incident involved a guy bashing someone's head in with a cell phone? OKAY! LET'S MAKE CELL PHONES ILLEGAL! [dusts off hands] Problem solved, gentlemen! Street violence is no more! A toast to a job well done! ^ See? You want to say that example is bad. But the reality is that it's COMPLETELY on point. It's EXACTLY what we got going on here. And that's totally bananas.

I'm pretty sure a Necramech is a suit... for your suit.

This is a pet peeve of mine. The overuse of the term "gaslighting". (Which I feel has picked up drastically over the last few years, for whatever reason.) It's not gaslighting to be in a discussion and trying to convince other people that you're right. BY NATURE, in doing that, you're also trying to convince other people that they're wrong. That's not gaslighting. That's disagreeing.

See, again, you're using fallacies to force yourself to continue with your stance. You cherrypick Eclipse's augment that buffs teammates, but we've said multiple times that Hall of Mirrors makes the Frame vulnerable, even though Hall of Mirrors NEVER provides any bonus whatsoever to allies, nor can they idle-kill enemies while you're in Operator. You know what you're doing. And we know that you're doing it. Can you just stop doing it now? What is this kindergarten rebuttal? Lol. HONESTLY? Yes. because I say so - and I say so with logic and reason backing it. So, yes, because I say so, if you wanna oversimplify it. Like I said, making Frames vulnerable during Operator isn't "fixing botting". Refer back to my shoes example, because maybe you didn't read it or understand the point I'm making with it. (I can explain it, if you wish.) "Constant enemy level increases"? It takes like EIGHT HOURS for enemies to reach 4-digit levels, or something along those lines. We're talking about BOTTING. Bots can just extract whenever they want and start a new game. Do you even know what you're trying to argue, anymore????? ... Do you even know what I'm saying anymore??? I'm saying Frames should be invulnerable, but deal zero damage, while you're in Operator mode. And we can extend that to also be, uhh, they can't CC enemies, or they can't buff allies, or whatever the hell you're arbitrarily complaining about. I don't really care, honestly. I just want to play the game, and if the game is demanding that I go Operator for the literal mission objective, I don't want to be forcibly joinked back to my Frame that now has 2 HP and dies to the next incoming hit, which by the way is already a pixel away from hitting, because the game LITERALLY has to go through some sort of CAMERA ANIMATION TIME to take me back to my Frame, LMAO. HOW are you even arguing against this? I'm not projecting or confusing, but I AM saying "you" as a collective, not as in YOU specifically. Keep in mind, I'm debating with many people on the opposite side of my own, while your side has the majority of posts in this thread (I think). So, yes, I am often combining statements you make with statements others are making, and addressing them together at times (but not always). On the contrary, I'm making a point to address every little bit. It's taking up a lot of space to do so, but I'm making a conscious effort not to appear like I'm cherrypicking. I'm actually kind of baffled that, despite SPECIFICALLY making sure I don't cherrypick, you're calling me a cherrypicker...... But I guess I'm not surprised. I actually just scoff-laughed out loud with a "what?" IRL... My loadout issue is that I play Mirage? Is... is that what we're doing now??? Or, no, wait. Is my loadout issue that I don't play sub-100% duration so that my buffs time out constantly, allowing me the freedom to go Operator and do mission objectives without my Frame dying? No - please - elaborate on this one. I want to watch you attempt to validate what you just said to me. What's my loadout problem that makes me unable to facetank level 2,000 Thraxes on Mirage while I do Void Cascades on my Operator? Ok, first off... complaining is how things get better. If nobody complained because everyone was... what? "Trying to be a man," or something along those lines? Then nothing would improve. It's called complacency. And that's what happens in a world with no complaining. Learn to respect complainers, to be honest, LOL. (As long as it's smart complaining, at least.) I am SINCERELY thankful that you and others have explained to me why the game mechanic exists. Because I did not know what the reason for it was. I honestly thought, at first, that it was just vulnerability for Frames with active defensive abilities, which seemed backwards to me, and so I made this thread asking why certain other abilities still caused vulnerability. HOWEVER, that being said... Upon learning the real reason for this mechanic... it only confounds me even further. HOW in the WORLD can this mechanic have been created WITH THE NOTION that it is the SOLUTION TO BOTTING??? That, right there, absolutely blows my mind. So you say... "If you don't recognize the logical reason for this"... Well, guess what? Correct. I do not recognize the logical reason for this. I recognize wanting to counter botting. Yes. But I do not recognize this as countering bots. I do not recognize this as logical. No. You got me there. I'm not putting words in your mouth, lol. All I said that you said is, "No not this." Which you ARE saying. You ARE telling me, no, not this. Are you not??? I am very much aware that nothing "passes or fails" based on posts here. However, if you think an entire community agreeing or disagreeing on something has no sway whatsoever, then that would be silly to believe. The PROBLEM, I imagine... now... after seeing this thread... is that the community probably NEVER unanimously agrees or disagrees with something, and so DE never has a direction to go on, based on unanimous community belief. After seeing that we can't even all agree that maybe certain Frames shouldn't automatically be excluded from certain game modes. But... "The reason I disagree is because I can see potential exploits that you clearly are blind to." Tell me, then. Tell me what exploits you see that I do not. Okay. The setup is this: When you go Operator, your Frame is invulnerable, and your Frame cannot influence surrounding allies or enemies. ... ... ... Okay, GO! What's the exploit?

I understand that, but he DID say "equally viable," which leans more towards "equally effective" than it does "they can all reach the finish line eventually".

I feel like the rug's been pulled from under my feet. I wasn't focusing on damage, it was the primary argument about "frames dealing lots of ability damage while being invulnerable". So I addressed it, and now I just got told that I'm focusing too much on it, lol... This is a strawman fallacy, though. You know full well that those are just examples I'm using. They aren't my entire argument. I am clearly not stating that "this game mechanic needs to be changed because it's hard on Mirage players in the Void Cascade game mode". It's... just the example I'm using. And I hate that fallacies force me to waste so much time addressing them like this. Yes, I agree. I clearly care more than you and other people in this thread do. So, like... then why are you gatekeeping me here? You know? You don't care, I do, and you're the one keeping me from being able to play certain game modes on over half the Frame roster. You're probably perfectly content with how things are because you don't play the parts of the game that I play. That's like if Railjack was in a totally crappy place, and you were complaining, and then I swooped in and said "UH ACTUALLY THE GAME IS FINE RIGHT NOW" even though I never touch Railjack. Do you see how this is not okay? I'm okay with you disagreeing with my suggested changes. But I don't really know WHY you disagree with them. Anybody can say to anyone else, "No not that," and just keep saying that indefinitely so that the bill never passes. But what on earth is there to disagree with? Your entire issue is that Frames can kill enemies while the player sits in Void Mode and their Frame is invuln. I suggest that these Frames can no longer kill things while the player sits in Void Mode. And you say, "No not that," and gatekeep the bill from passing??? Why??? This EXACTLY solves what you're complaining about. And it comes with no downsides or side effects. You say, "No not that," but you say that these Frames DYING is a better solution??? It's just so bizarre. It's so forced. And I honestly think you know this. But you're doubling down at this point. Rubedo is an in-game resource, dude. I'm using it to represent not only itself, but all other similar resources. Alloy. Ferrite. Whatever. Totally mundane resources that everyone has literal millions of. Because that's what you farm by sitting in infinite game modes, lol. Nobody's making plat off Rubedo. Nobody's breaking the economy. Nobody's ruining the game sitting in Survivals for a while. And, again, if we're talking about actual scripting/botting... You didn't solve botting by making Frames vulnerable during Operator, LOL. That's like watching a video of somebody getting robbed by a guy wearing shoes, and thinking you solved crime by banning shoes. Another fallacy. Plugging in the generalized statement that you provided, yes, anyone would conclude, "Wow! Yeah, that sounds like a problem! EVERYONE can just become INVINCIBLE at ANY TIME FOREVER???" But that's so... that's SO CLEARLY an intentional fallacy, I feel like I'm being silly even responding to it. It's just Frame invincibility while you're not even using the Frame. Suddenly it sounds quite different, doesn't it? Has a bit of a different ring to it. While your statement says, "The man with the AK47 is also completely invulnerable," my statement says, "The man sitting on the toilet is also completely invulnerable." You can't just come into this thread and say, "Frames shouldn't be able to be invincible whenever they want." Because that's not even remotely the whole story, and you know it. You know what you're doing. I just don't know why you're doing it.

Good reply. I'll also add in, against my better judgment: Saying that "all frames are equally viable" is such a ludicrous and fantastical thing to say. It's akin to saying, "all things work out in the end, and everyone lives happily ever after." What world are you living in, my friend?

SO TRUE. To answer the question, for me personally, it's the haste mote that bothers me. Move speed is great. But fire rate is a noob trap. Not only does it increase the likelihood of you wasting ammo (and having to reload more), but fire rate can also be bad, such as disabling bleed mods, and ruining your fine-tuned rate for Nataruk or whatever. In general, the motes are a noob trap. Speed cuz of what I mentioned, and HP because... HP is fake survival. It's the illusion of survivability lol. It's not damage reduction. IMO!