TreeLover69

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  1. TreeLover69

    Wukong's Rework

    I see that in the build but the immortality bit is something that's pretty keystone to Son Wukong's lore and is also something I wouldn't want to see DE drop. IMO retaining the immortality and running it based on the amount of incoming damage increases powerstrength by X would be a good compromise. True, but it doesnt have to be under the assumption it'll get used explicitly for that. I like having the finisher as a QoL effect, just a shame the rest of the existing ability is pretty bad. My biggest gripe for giving up on the staff is how iconic is it for the character. It's his keynote tool/weapon, having it baked into limited uses i think would end up feeling underwhelming if you pick up Wukong and are looking forward to bashing people around with the staff.
  2. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    A bullet jump takes 1 second, heres a link to a video so you can look for yourself if you don't believe me: So its 3 seconds absolute tops, and that 3rd bullet jump isn't needed if there's a 20 m range on primal fury (15+15+20=50, assuming primal fury is 20 m base with no option to mod for range). The only time you need that kind of closer is on open maps such as Plants or Orb Vallis. It's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it out to be. It's okay to say that you feel like a melee frame needs it, I disagree and that's fine - it's why I said it's subjective. But please don't throw up numbers that are wrong to try and prove a point. You are clear, but you're not listening to the other side of the story. There are steps in game design that can be taken to make sure that angles of attack don't limit the ability or make it awkward. The hitbox on a weapon =/= the animation, polearms and staffs with primed reach are examples of that. DE design the hitbox around the aiming reticle to sufficiently to feel like the animation is acturately hitting what you're aiming at. Without mods, Wukong's base defensive stats are identical Saryn's (not the prime variant) - has the same armor, same total of shield+health. Without mods, Wukong is objectively tankier than Saryn because Wukong has 2 specific invulnerability abilities. If you mod both the same, Wukong will still be able to survive for longer than Saryn when getting shot because of those abilities so you're able to mod him less offensively. The whole point of this comparison was to show that no frame can be strong in every aspect of the game, otherwise you get power creep. Saryn does not have the ability to survive the playstyle that Wukong can, she cant clear low level content as efficiently as equinox can - so she has a niche. In Wukong's re-work, he needs to have some form of compromise, which is all this comparison was meant to show. It's a discussion point because you used it to try and invalidate my opinion that Wukong doesn't need a gap closer if he gets significant range on Primal Fury. So you claimed that not having the gap closer mobility would make him a power/range frame and that the "overwhelming majority" are designed around being powerful from range, so i laid out the roster to show that's not true with plenty of frames that are based around different playstyles. Then you jumped to saying that because frames are able to use guns they are powerful at range (ie chroma), which again applies to any warframe because they all use guns. So I laid out what the kit would have to point out that it's not focused on being ranged/power, and that you have diversity. You then proceeded to ignore it to pull the discussion full circle with using "the overwhelming majority are designed around being powerful from range" to try and invalidate my opinion that Wukong doesn't need a gap closer. The change to wall clipping stops that, Wukong wouldnt be an exception. You'd still be beholden to the current melee combat rules, and unless you were sitting still waiting for something to show up within your LoS your going to move and be more active. You're also going to need to keep feeding yourself energy to maintain the channel that so you wouldn't be able to stand still on that front either. You're no more right about the topic than I am, the direction DE should go with the rework is entirely subjective. All I'm trying to do is gauge why a gap closer is needed and provide some discussion as to what the pros and cons are so that they can use the opinions that we make available to inform their design. The best way I know how to do that is to present the reasons why it isn't needed, especially if the rest of his kit were to stay the way you originally proposed. From what i've picked up from the discussion so far is - Garuda has one, i like it, Wukong should have it too - which is valid, you find it fun. But then I ask myself then why not just play Garuda if she's already got that ability? My main concern is that Wukong stays relevant for as long as possible without becoming a stale version of another frame, while also maintaining the monkey king feel. So to me it's important to target the specific types of abilities that Wukong really needs to feel like Son Wukong and is still fun to play. Son Wukong's staff is iconic and that needs to be represented in his gameplay in a big way, which is why I'd advocate for a stronger focus on the staff's utility and what diverse gameplay options can come from it. There may be a better option than the version in China, but to me that looks really enjoyable to play and looks like it can feel really impactful. The last note I've got on this, is that I see the point of a rework or new frame as being an opportunity to introduce new mechanics to the game, and a gap closer baked into Jab doesn't do that but something like a super extended staff or an animal transformation does. Having options on how to interact with Iron Jab such as it doing a legsweep, a slam, or the current jab depending on whether your crouched, jumping etc... also does introduces a new mechanic. If i wanted a gap closer on an Iron Jab like ability I can play Garuda, Atlas, Ash, Rhino etc... personally I'd prefer to see DE spend the time on something new.
  3. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    3 x 15m = 45 m, the range from the weapon would make up the remaining distance. This assumes that the implementation of the weapon & range is bad though, that's where I take issue with it. We'd be assuming that the implementation of the weapon would be awkward to the point of not reliably hitting enemies at range. Spear and polearm range boosts work, it just feels weird because the animation for the weapon doesn't accurately reflect the increase in range. This clip is more specifically what I think we both mean by increasing range, what we're going back and forth on seems to be whether or not DE can code the hitboxes to work properly. The point is trading out defensive mods for offensive ones. I don't need to kit valkyr/atlas/excal/loki/octavia etc... for health and armour because they have enough survivability in their ability loadout that synergizes with an output build. The best gauge of a frames tankiness is its base stats and abilities. So take mods out of the equation for the time being because they fall into the same category as saying any frame can be ranged/aoe because guns. Wukong and Saryn have the same base stats with inverse shield and health values. Wukong as an immortality, Saryn does not. Saryn is not Tankier than Wukong. In terms of Saryn's niche,its a caster with ramping AOE damage. She doesn't kill single targets effectively or quickly. She doesn't have abilities that are intended for extended face to face fighting (in melee, her 3 is specifically designed to spread spores). Wukong's niche isn't well defined, he kind of fits into a generalist frame doing nothing particularly well. IMO he could be well suited as combat oriented, ranged-melee trickster. Where he has: Ranged staff (Primal Fury), small radius AOE CC (iron jab), tanky (defy), and in-vulnerability (mist/defy?). So I don't think excessive movement (aka a gapcloser akin to Garuda) is necessary to fit that model. It was pedantic to counter a overly broad/generalized statement that came with an assertion that "The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are range/power and it's boring at this point", which isn't true because there are plenty of non power/range builds that are viable for over half frames (which is also true for all the frames you've corrected me on). The modifications to your ideas I'm proposing isn't to change Wukong to just a range power frame. All i've been saying is that I don't think he needs a gap-closer baked into Iron Jab if he's going to get a significant range on his Primal Fury. To be honest, to make it simpler coding wise I don't think primal fury should scale with range at all and that only the mist disorient and iron jab aoe should scale with range. Just to recap what I'd like to see come out of his rework: Ironjab - Have different interactions with depending on some modifier. Aiming/crouching/jumping just seemed easiest to control and then CC with a slam, legsweep, jab. Scale with range/power/efficiency. Defy - I honestly don't care too much, assuming they fix the immunity i'd be happy with it rather than an Oberon clone but I'd be happy with either. Scale with power/efficiency/duration. Mist - I think it just needs a QoL change with a sizable speed increase but other effects baked into would be neat too. Scale with range/efficiency/duration. Primal Fury - Something akin to the Chinese version, same kind of thing I believe you want with it too just fix the range to however many meters so it's reasonable to program and implement. Scale with power/efficiency/duration. I mean, as far as frame kits go, the only ranged melee is excal and it's more of a gunbeam sword than melee. There are more frames with melee gap closer mobility (atlas, valkyr, ash, rhino, hydroid, garuda) than frames with a channeled ability that grant range with a unique flavor (excal, titania). There's more uniqueness in focusing on that kind of ability. If there are other frames that have that channeled ability that provide range and are better than gun/melee play please correct me. The other issue with a gap closer is that if Wukong gets range on his primal fury you lose the synergy between abilities. Ash's closer is for finishers, valkyrs is to get her into range to mongo bongo or pull a high priority target to get savaged with short range. So then why would I close a 20m gap when I can just slap you with a staff with 20m of reach?
  4. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    That's why I said 2-3, doesn't change that its subjective as to whether or not Wukong needs that kind of gap closer given the rest of his kit.. Entirely depends on how they code the weapon to work. If the animations line up with where the weapon hits then it'll be fine. It also would have the benefit of cleaving but with melee 3.0 that could change so I don't want to speculate on how it would be implemented. Not trying to be an ass about this but comparing a bug to an intentional implementation of a mechanic doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Yes it would, the hitch for those frames is that their survivability is a lot worse because they don't have abilities that put them at Oberon or Valkyr levels of sustain. Every frame has a weakness and a niche, and giving Wukong range, strength, godmode and mobility in his kit doesn't present an obvious niche. To get at this issue a bit closer I think it'd be more productive to talk about what the design philosophy should be outside of the Sun Wukong lore. What do you think his niche should be and what do you think his weakness be? How should he compliment a team composition? That's not an accurate picture assuming we're talking about how you choose to build frames and what frames do. AOE frames just see a lot more play because they can be used to cheese farm. To summarize the ones I'm familiar with: The following don't have productive range builds: Atlas, Ash, Chroma, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Inaros, Khora, Loki, Mirage, Nekros, Titania, Zephyr, Vauban, Valkyr. Thats 16/37 close to half of the current frames. The following have range builds with other builds also being viable: Gara, Nezha, Garuda, Octavia, Nidus, Limbo, Frost, Rhino, Oberon, 7/37. The following are AOE frames that thrive on killing with ranged abilities or are just baked in as ranged: Equinox, Banshee, Ember, Saryn, Mag, Nova, Mesa, Nyx. 7/37.
  5. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    You're not wrong about Garuda's leap being faster, but bullet jump at 1.0 movement covers ~15m distance so you can objectively get there in two bullet jumps. IMO 2-3 bullet jumps to cover that distance isn't unreasonable (which is where there is subjectivity of whether having that type of ability is necessary), especially when considering that Wukong's kit already has a set and forget immortality. No, not saying that you're against more range, but I disagree that Wukong can have both range and mobility. The underlying principal to limit power creep is that you need some trade off for respective strengths. If you have range, you don't need mobility and vice versa. If you have both range and high mobility it becomes a power creep issue where Wukong would have too much (provided he was strong enough to kill things lategame). So let's say he has both mobility and good range and still has tankiness/immortality, then the only way to balance him is to make energy costs either excessively high (specifically to hit ability spam and his immortality/primal fury) or you keep ability power low (this usually results in late game stagnation due to poor scaling). So if we had to pick a particular area to buff Wukong I'd take range & power and skip the mobility portion because poor ability scaling feels bad. If Wukong doesn't get addressed with a balanced approach for range and mobility then you make a frame like Valkyr irrelevant (who has pretty close to everything Wukong does only less range).
  6. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    Yea I agree with you that its a matter of preferece. IMO the base movement tools that we have in warframe are sufficient to quickly get around, and with a much larger range on his Primal Fury you wont have to face to face with enemies. That kind of jumping to enemy movement has always personally bugged me for three reasons - Targetting a single target in what is predominantly a horde shooter. Regauging/orienting yourself to your surroundings after (warframes viewport isn't particularly good for that). With abilities like garuda you can just as easily bullet jump to cover that distance. Thematically warframes with enemy rush abilities are assassins (Garuda/Ash). A better comparison of a fighter/brawler is Valkyr who kitwise is pretty close to wukong but uses a pull because her melee range is crap, but has high damage an immortality to balance that poor range. Plus, movement like somersaulting half way across the world or flying around already ties into what a warframe innately does with bullet jumping and aim gliding. If warframes base movement was less than what it is, I'd agree. However, i'd much rather see additional range on his Primal Fury (with particle effects on his staff extending to match) to a pulling ability. It'd also make him more unique to what other existing frame kits are out there.
  7. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    I don't think he needs it to be honest and IMO the lore behind sun wukong doesn't really fit that kind of kit. If his Primal Fury had much better range, as it should given the properties of Ruyi Jingu Bang (the staff), he wouldn't need something that pulls him in to an enemy because he'd be able to whack them from a reasonable range away (maybe 15+ yards?). Combine that with the CC you'd get from my proposed iron jab changes and I think you get a more well rounded monkey that still fits in with the lore of Sun Wukong.
  8. TreeLover69

    Flickering sun on the plains

    Yea I noticed this today too. Honestly, it was pretty bad if it was in your line of vision. Everything else was fine, was just the sun. My graphics were on a higher setting but same gist. I tried playing with v-sync, anti aliasing and graphic detail but nothing fixed it.
  9. TreeLover69

    Conglomerated Wukong rework

    Overall I like the ideas, I only really have one different idea that I think would positively add to what you've suggested which would be a change to his 1 to make it more interactive because I think it just needs some more versatility in the type of CC, id change it as such: Iron-Jab: Add additional effects based on use. Eg. Use while aiming performs the current jab w/knockdown. Use with hip fire performs a ground slam/slap that staggers enemies within a radius. Use while crouched performs a frontal cone (or full aoe) leg sweep knockdown. Scales with: Range, Efficiency, Power. Any enemies that die from one of these gets rag dolled.