SneakyErvin

Yes I'm fully aware. But people claim it isnt due to that damage people are upset of the LoS, they claim they are upset because it is now inconsistant at hitting primed targets, while at the same time not being aware that the inconsistancy was tied to Dark Verse since day 1 and for two whole weeks. It wouldnt have mattered if DE left Tragedy alone, since Dark Verse would have still be tied to inconsistant hit reg since it was implemented from release with the old LoS system. Why were the people complaining about Tragedy consistancy not highlighting the lacking consistancy prior to the Tragedy change if their criteria was rooted in primed target detonation? It sounds more and more like those people actually just want the 50m+ lowbie nuke back. You'd expect they'd mention Dark Verse early on if their true intent was the inconsistancy of detonation damage. Those "cramped" tiles were already restricted by the need of Dark Verse that hit less than Final Verse could detonate, leaving several targets practically untouched from day 1. And with the LoS added/fixed for Final Verse, Dark Verse was still the bottleneck until the most recent patch. Now both work and are consistant, even with LoS requirements, since both now use the new system.

For me it depends on how it is delivered. I'm not super fond of AoE nuke frames since most arent impactful. Dante feels good because you actual get the sense rending the enemy as you prime them for the final nuke. Saryn kinda makes me snoozy, because there really is no impact to her skills. I far prefer Protea in that case or Dagath, since they are visually impacting as they go on a skill based rampage. However weapons give that extra in general due to explosions going *BOOM*. Melee is also there now with the introduction of Influence, since you can now feel like Dark Lord Sauron just wiping out hordes ahead of you with your melee strikes/swings. While you have a point that this will increase homogenization I think it is of little concern, since at the same time it opens up more choices to build to do achieve something you want. The game is already set up in a way where we want AoE for efficiency, which just means a narrower selection to achieve that. So allowing more things to achieve that is good since it adds more options. It results in you being more able to play what you want, the style you prefer, without giving up too much of the efficiency you might seek at the same time. And even though AoE might get more homogenized as in more available, the way it is delivered will still be far different between playstyles. Some will utilize it through frames, others through a gun or melee. Which in turn opens up potential for DE to limit our kits further, by requiring us to pick single target maybe, since we have so many slots to pick from that can perform a specific task. It would be an issue if it turned all playstyles into the same playstyle like it does in many other games. But me jumping around cleaving heads with Kullervo is far different from melee floating around with Dante and wizarifying things to death with skills, or raining hell on enemies with a mix of skills and guns with Protea. Sure some will overlap, like My Rhino, Nezha, Kullervo, Yareli and Chroma being close in playstyle (for me), same as Dante and Dagath feel similar. But that just has to happen when you have close to 60 frames and hundreds of weapons in the game.

Turn it into a tiny brown-ish colored stick shaped sentinel with a bit of golden in it, rename the augment to Fishstick Prime.

Yeah. It's like Pillage but with better checks than that old mechanic and your life/energy doesnt depend on it. The people that have it impact their machine should probably consider clearing caches if they dont usually do so and likely also verify and optimize the game cache if they dont. Lots of slowdowns and hitches occur due to neglecting such. If that doesnt make it work better, keep reporting it like crazy. Well no not really, you are saying they are some bar setting standard. They really just flock to whatever gets most views, in this case talking about the negative parts of Dante (even if they dont share the opinion in reality). Who do you think neon-god lemmings will view in a case with this much reee on the forums? The fellow giving the fair view or the one riding the same wagon as his lemmings? And the funny thing is also that nothing actually changed with the LoS being added aside from the initial one that was massive bugged due to using an old system, Because everything still relied on the consistancy of Dark Verse to begin with. Not that is is just another LoS, but that it used the old crappy LoS checks from Dante's release day up until the most recent patch. People even pointed this out to those that placed the blame on Final Verse LoS (which used the new system after the first intial fix) as opposed to Dark Verse using the old still. Dark Verse was for instance the thing being blocked by Dante and several other things. People tried this by using toxin, heat or slash from other sources and then detonating using the same body/obstacle block angles, at which point those enemies previously not dying to Final Verse suddenly died, but when they went back to Dark Verse priming, those targets were left unharmed with with no statuses on them after detonation. The odd part though is that none of those complaining noticed this earlier, as in between release and the first and second LoS version added to Final Verse Tragedy. Kinda odd imo, since all of a sudden people claimed they used to prime so much and then detonate but suddenly it wouldnt work. Hmm but it Dark Verse is so inconsistant to begin with, how did they no notice this during the first week? Which makes me think more and more that they never actually did high level content where they needed to make use of Dark Verse to kill, since in that case they would have noticed the same behavior since the same amount of targets would have gone unharmed. I refered to it using the new system as a whole. Yes, my point is your FoV wont alter how it interact with enemies in your back, since they arent rendered. Your image is also just assumptions, since none of us no neither the size of each of the 3 boxes, nor the size or "scan" pattern of the 3 rays. If the body is split in 3 joining boxes, your example for instance would result in hits, unless the ray only targets the very center, the very top and the very bottom, which I highly doubt considering how forgiving frontal LoS is, where any little visible rendered bit will count. Of course, you might have gotten the image directly from DE, which I also doubt is the case. He was just as annoying before. Read my reply to the other quoted poster regarding which LoS was actually broken. Broken for a whole week prior to LoS was added to Tragedy, broken upon the Tragedy LoS fix the day after, and still broken all the way up to the most recent "OG" patch. How did you not notice and voice your concern regarding that if you relied on that skill in the first place? Could it be that you didnt and just used it so you could use Tragedy for its innate damage? That just means that they may say something very incorrect and you need to be aware of how everything works in return in order to not fall for their inaccuracy. So if someone has gone and done #*!%ed it up several times regarding things you know, the moment they say something about a thing you dont know you should likely dismiss what they say regarding that thing, since you cant fact check it since you dont know. I mean for the skill as a whole. A skill based on your FoV hits more based on your FoV setting. A 360 skill just uses two different checks but you arent hitting more in your back based on your FoV setting. You arent really hitting more in the front either, you just have a slightly wider reach for one hit check to be used instead of another. But since we dont know how forgiving the check in your back in compared to the frontal, we cant say how much more beneficial it is to squeeze out a few more degrees for the frontal check to be used. Yep, I've used plenty of those narrow places on several different maps with Dante, be it locker rooms on Grineer and Corpus tiles or in the Void, I've had no issues, not even in the rooms with crystal trees and a turret right in the middle of them while facing out of a "basement" into the room outside. I'm still hitting things through pillars aswell that completely block what I physically see on my screen, both when it comes to side view and top view i.e hitting to the side of a pillar that connects to the floor and ceiling aswell as hitting over pillars that are only connected to the floor. No blocking either in narrow tunnels like those experienced on Corpus Ships, Asteroid Bases, Mars and in the Void. I mean both use the same new system. Obviously your back will not target specific bodyparts as your FoV does, since it counts as not rendered enemies, so instead just treated as hitbox check, if a part of one of those boxes is in view it will be a hit. What I mean is you arent hitting more, since it is already 360. As opposed to a skill with no hard coded angle, where you hit based on what your FoV sees i.e Ember's 4 compared to Dark Verse, 25m FoV based targetting angle vs 25m 50 degree targetting angle.

Kullervo... no wait, he isnt gimmicky, he's stereotypical, the dude from finland that is way too knife happy and doesnt stray from cursing at people while threatening them wrathfully with those too many knives he is too happy about. Lavos for actually gimmicky. I mean, CDs in WF, can it get more gimmicky than that?

Yes, it is designed as a radius skill, hence why it hit whole maps before. The only thing that has changed is that it has a LoS requirement, nothing with the radius has changed. DE even highlights how it works on such skills. And more than 1 second passed between turning and detonating, since each group was primed with 33 and I was atlast 15 meters away from the group behind me. It is also hard to notice a 360 degree hit without priming properly since the initial damage of the skill is so horrible. And I've avoided testing in sim since I dont want to bother with potential sim specific bugs. Have people tested it on shield frames with the changes? Since the wording seems to imply it will work since shield are not active when OG is covering a frame. Vex armor was also buffed so there is no issue really, since you build it by killing now aswell and not just getting hit.

Verse treatment for Lavos. Holding a single element button would add that element to the mixer. If a combined element is already in the mixer it would be replaced by the single element. If a single element is in the mixer holding another would combine the two. Holding 2 elements at the same time would combine and replace what is currently in the mixer. Perfect? No but atleast it would work and be better than the hard lock we have now.

What I wonder in defense is always "why is this thing placed in this specific position?" because it rarely makes any sense out of a defense PoV neither if I try to think as a tenno or a grinner/corpus. And the void gets extra odd. Why are the corrupted attacking a part of the tower when they are controlled by the sentry in order to protect the tower? What did the thing-stuff-majib in the center do? DE should imo rework defense to be some mobile endless escort mission, where we move from point to point with the objective in order to gather information or something. Make it feel more alive. Kuva defense, attack point A to secure a thing, then escort it around the map to steal Kuva.

Actual 360, as in things behind you will die if they are in LoS in the same fashion as if you were looking in that direction. I made sure to test it today since after the nerf I thought "why not just make it a cone if it is going to be LoS restricted" so never really gave it a try. But since it is easy to spot if something is hit behind you after you've primed them (since they'll be dead if a hit lands) I decided to test. And it works because I lit up a room behind me and one infront of me and everything died to tragedy. So it follows the same rules behind you as it does infront of you. Aslong as atleast some part of the enemy sticks out it will get hit. I've had no problems in Labs, did it all this monday with Dante and zero issues when it came to killing, no matter if indoors or outdoors. I havent ran into LoS issues on any map so far. Teleport on Kullervo however, yes, massive issues with doorways etc. Maybe it is working as intended though to thematically mimic a drunk fin? Well that is a valid explaination. And I wouldnt say Dante wasnt meta, he just didnt have time to be crowned meta. He will likely end up being meta, even with the nerfs. He still deals some of the highest and most reliable damage in the game and has some insane sync with helminth while also providing one of if not the best defense in the game. Not only due to it being OG but because every single player he buffs can maintain it without his interaction for long periods of time. He also comes with very high base stats on his skills, with insane range and duration. I dont even run a particularly heavy strength build on him. I'm running a fairly mixed setup with maxed efficiency, good duration and some range, but enough strength choices in the build to grant a 55k OG that regs a little over 300 per sec, it also lasts 75 seconds. This also still gives me high multipliers for damage and status. He is very forgiving to build strong. And at which point should we start dismissing those people? The person in question has made an equally false observation and claim in earlier parts of the patching post- Dante Unbound. So how accurate can their feedback be regarding other things at that point? Those people are likely just complaining for the sake of complaing and dont actually notice how things work. I mean, ffs, the skill in question has worked like that since fortuna, which is several years ago, yet somehow that someone has used it on several frames assumingly since they specifically point out they wont use it in the future aside from on two frames due to the new change. Changes that made it alot better, since under the old LoS small pieces of rubble could stop it, even angles such as those that now work according to the same video would stop it since you didnt have physical LoS between frame and enemy. This change has likely also solved elevation issues, though I havent bothered to test that yet with the specific skill. FoV should not impact your Tragedy since it is a 360 hit. If it was just hitting in the direction you actually look and based on what is rendered in your FoV (not the frames) it would be understandable since a wider field would see/hit more. But this is already hitting 360 degrees around you, so what you see doesnt matter. If people have problems with it they should report it as detailed as possible. edit: Also what do you refer to with "enclosed maps". Would be good to know so I can test it aswell there unless I already have. Because content creators are so well known as solid pillars of how to utilize a frame properly or not? It's not like they get big views on let us call it "chum" and "soap" in order to keep it clean, friendly and respectul.

Do you even Dante bro? He has infinite OG aslong as you kill atleast 1 mob each 2 seconds, it is really that simple. I love the people that go "I need to do these many 22 and 224 before being able to survive!". No you do a single 224 and then you kill until it is time to rebuff. Only reason to currently do it more often is to "fix" the bug with companions and melee, and maybe in a DA incase your group mates got S#&$ty picks that wont let them kill regularly. In SP Rev's Skin lasts for about as many seconds as it has charges, so 20 charges means rebuffing roughly around each 20-25 sec. Dante is immortal for aslong as his 4 is active, for me that is around 75 seconds. You only need to monitor it versus things like regular demos and the fragmented one that can actually dispell you. Funny part is that you are immune to Violence silence, but a scrambus will rape your buffs with a broken bottle and a rusty knife. No she doesnt. She has an attrition "nuke", which can scale up decently. But lets face it, even at a 10k stack it is still "only" 30k damage which needs to tick. Dante is hundreds of thousands and millions of damage on demand, damage that gives zero #*!%s about armor in the first place, and everything else dies since nothing else has enough health/shields to take the hit.

Kinda odd to call yourself invested when you havent uttered a single feedback comment on the forums in the last 10 years. Does that mean everything prior to Dante has been perfect or is it just you are really upset that your presumed Mesa or Saryn got surpassed by even further mindless map nuking and then that got removed? You should also consider that there are likely as many invested players that are fine with the changes, but those players dont tend to feel a need to flock to a forum to say "great work". The upset minority (minority as in forum users) are always the most vocal. So just because you see alot of complaints (many from the same people just repeated over and over thread upon thread) it doesnt mean it is a huge crowd. There are also misconceptions. We have in this thread proof of one player saying "LoS is bugged", with a video, that shows LoS working just as it should and just as expected with the changes they've made in comparison to the old system used. Others have also implied LoS has gotten added to some skills that already had LoS. Yet even with the S#&$ty old system it went unnoticed by those same player that now claim it was added. How can those people be trusted as a viable source of feedback? Also. People that want the LoS removed on tragedy so they can run around and kill. Uhm just use your hooters and dark verse and roar which you likely already used. It wipes out whatever you dump DoTs on except eximus units. Acolyte? Pfft 2x Dark Verse and Acolyte bleeds out in 4 ticks in a lonely corner as you kill everything else. I also wanna point out that spreading and detonating is still there, you just cant do it through walls. Tragedy is still very much 360.

That doesnt change anything of what I said. Those are just further practically meaningless steps since you cannot circumvent the requirement of 2 dark verse before a final verse tragedy.

I'm just wondering which devstream you watched where they showed anything particular off besides what his skills looked like/did in general? We didnt even have an actual concept of the range he'd have on his skills iirc. They tossed up some book and birds, applied some OG and attacked a few mobs nearby. I cant recall the video where they camped in some room and used Tragedy.

Yeah. I'm in the same boat, I get that people were confused since it wasnt really explained, but it is indeed odd that people imply that DE lied about it when nothing was actually said. It would be more logical to assume that the modifiers would need to be active considering what Pablo said regarding still considering "most or all". And in that regard DE have only spoken the truth, since all are required to unlock elite, but to run elite for all the rewards it only requires most i.e all but one active. Though I guess that yeah for the sumdawhatever hood ornament you need all in elite once. But that isnt exactly a thing that will go away so can be done a week when you get mostly great picks. I've done it once and will never do it again with all modifiers. But to be honest I dont see the point of the random loadouts. The moment we get to pick one thing freely the whole RNG setup becomes quite pointless for the most part. I'd much rather see 4 more active mission modifications to counter certain things. Like -90% damage on AoE, Melee attacks per second is cut in half, abilities ignore efficiency modifiers (both good and bad), enemy attacks have x% chance to nullify abilities and/or silence you for 2 seconds and S#&$ like that.

I dont really hate any specific game mode but there are maps for certain game modes I just hate. Earth, Mars, Corpus Ship, Io and 1/2 Stephano defense maps are horrible. However, if I play them as Arbitrations I do not hate them, since at that point I get to control where to fight, which makes them so much smoother compared to the dog turd regular setup of those mission nodes. Ugh, cant believe I refered to them as dog turds, not even dog turds deserve to be disrespected that way.💩

Sorry to say since I like Josh, but he isnt old enough to actually know the ins and out regarding P2W since he has never experienced the eras of cash shops. You are also starting things in the wrong end if I get what you are saying right. The "Games have evolved, and the industry now realizes" is backwards. What we see in WF and many other F2P games is the pre-P2W era monetization and in-game setup repeated, the era that spawned shortly after the add based F2P games. The reason P2W was even coined is because the old decriptions/acronyms like P2S (pay to skip), PfC (pay for conveniance) etc. didnt suffice when competition between players got involved and effectively monetized. This new acronym didnt apply to the non-competative games. So since WF and other games are set up like those even older games, it is an acronym that doesnt apply here either, since it isnt a competative game. So yes, ignornace would be correct in this case, since what you are talking about with "selling a player an experience that feels better" is not P2W, it is either P2S, PfC or something similar. A player buying something to personally feel better or make the game feel better for him doesnt mean he's winning in the sense it is ment by the acronym P2W, since it is about him, not in relation to someone else that he gets an upper hand over. It isnt an objective benefit, nor is it positively significant either in comparison to someone that doesnt pay to get that specific thing. WF doesnt sell any objective benefits tied to player power, it also doesnt sell you anything that gives you an upper hand compared to a player not buying that thing, since there is no competition in WF and whatever that one guy buys, it benefits everyone else aswell when he uses it alongside other players. The game also lacks a cash path to what would be the best items, since even items and what is best are widely subjective. Just look at Dante that is S, A, D, C, D tier or completely usesless depending on who you ask. Also "I never said that Warframe's P2W is something I find wrong" is uhm an odd thing to say, since P2W is a term that was coined in order to be a black mark placed on horrible monetization. So by refering to WFs monetization as P2W means you find the monetization wrong. It's like saying "I never said that Bob being bigot is something I find wrong". Both being deregatory terms aimed at something that is considered bad. So shards in the cash shop wouldnt be P2W, they'd be conveniance items and skips, since all they'd really do is add QoL in a bad system. The power obtained from them benefits others in a group, they are readily available through gameplay and there is no competition. It would really just circumvent the tedious nature of unequipping them, since you could buy them to kit out all frames instead. The power wouldnt increase, since the power is limited to 5 slots per frame and already achievable rather quickly the moment you've kitted out your first frame of choice. You wont get more powerful by kitting out a second, third, fourth etc. frame with 5 shards, it will just bring you QoL since you dont need to engage with the mess that is swapping shards. It would also not be an objective "win", since someone else may instead prefer the weekly chase (I know I do)

You are basing the observation on a fissure and it isnt even an abnormal eHP number for a buff at that. The regular non-fissure OG would be 50-60k or something. Nezha and Rhino can reach these numbers easily and have been able to do so baseline since SP was added. They do so by simply jumping into a crowd of enemies and trigger Halo/Iron Skin and eat damage during the invulnerability time, same goes for Yareli. It is hard to pull off versus infested and in labs, cos those bastards have no pew pew pew hitting fast and hard. Versus Corpus, Grineer and Corrupted it isnt unusual for those 3 frames to end up with 2-3 times as much extra eHP as the OG you observed.

I guess you missed my point since it is about the players that do turn to prime things or go further to spread several Dark Verses across the map on several groups before detonating. They dont understand that they deal far less damage by doing so, so the LoS in high content doesnt really matter since it is in the end sub-optimal. The skill is based on 2 variables to deal damage if we ignore the abyssmal basic damage of it. 1. Status stack size. Each Dark Verse applies 2 stacks of slash. 2. Remaining status duration. Slash has 6 seconds of duration, since no frame can increase that aside from Lavos when it comes to skills. This in turn means that when you Dark Verse two seperate groups you are effectively dealing half the damage if you run a 334 rotation, since each group only has 2 stacks active. Not a big problem, since it can handle most things, but will fall behind the higher you get. However, if that same person starts spreading more Dark Verses to get "more" out of his eventual Tragedy cast he may run into completely gimping the damage on the first groups primed, since for each second that passes by between the Dark Verse cast and detonation through Tragedy 16% of the potential damage that would otherwise get multiplied disappears, since slash only lasts 6 seconds and deals damage each second. Controlling the map by funneling the enemies properly has always been far more efficient for Tragedy use, since it allows you to get near full multiplier on every Tragedy cast. Making it far more likely for you to finish the enemies you hit even if you spread it among two groups of enemies, since atleast both groups will have max or near max duration left on the slash status when you detonate. Plus it also help Dark Verse hit more enemies per cast as opposed to enemies being spread around you. You practically lose 1 second on each previous Dark Verse for each new one you cast (cast speed can make up for some of it, but parts of the animation arent altered by it like with most skills).

But that isnt true. You are completely ignoring how much dps you actually lose on tragedy by running around and spreading out your dark verse. It's as if you dont consider the mechanics of Final Verse at all. Each extra Dark Verse you decide to apply across the map effectively reduces how much damage your previous Dark Verses will deal when you finaly detonate them. Each second that passes by is another portion lost that will not be multiplied by the massive detonation bonus. Each seperate Dark Verse cast on a new group also reduces how many stacks each group has, since it applies 2 stacks per cast. So focusing on what is infront of you and then detonating mostly results in 4 stacks per target with 5-6 seconds worth of status ticks to consume and multiply the damage on. Each second that passes is 16% of the primed damage that will never be included in the multiplier. This results in as you toot around to spread your bleeds, the likelyhood that targets survive in the first group you primed gets higher and higher, since they mostly take the low slash ticks that are not multiplied and are left with only a few tick for you to consume as you cast Final Verse. Meaning you either need to cast more on them or shoot/melee them in order to die, since well, you just consumed all remaining status ticks, so nothing is left to finish them of. As to the last part, no. People have claimed the labs are horrible since the added LoS requirement, it isnt. I did it this monday for EDA and there was nothing blocking me, no matter if I was on the other side of a railing or other environmental obstructions, it hit upwards, downwards, to the sides aslong as it was a PoV angle for LoS, no matter how little I saw of the mobs. And it is the same in the void, I can stand on the bottom and cast up on a balcony and still hit enemies mostly covered up by planters etc. There are LoS issues for some, but claiming it removes 80% of your former targets is just ridiculous. Yes, removal of the initial damage would be a good solution. As to Saryn and full strips. Yes that is all great, but I rather deal cinematic damage straight up and kill things without having to wait for a status to tick enough times. Saryn doesnt kill nearly as fast when you get into higher levels. Saryn deals around 30k (10k x3) with decently stacked spore damage and active spores per target, Dante deals hundreds of thousands and up to several millions of damage in a matter of seconds and ignore armor in the process. He also doesnt need to care about incoming damage for the most part, since even if you face high incoming damage, your OG will just keep resetting his invulnerability over and over and over. And if things really go down the crapper, there are always the shields to for another gate layer. This is also before we consider Dante's complete immunity to status effects aswell as other external sources that may impact your kit, like certain key modifiers in Cells and EDA/DA. But they likely didnt nerf him based on Hydron, but low content overall. Ember also works well practically everywhere. I used to play her extensively after her rework and she never had any real issues even with her outdates LoS mechanic compared to the one Dante uses. I revisited her again when Archon mods were released and had no particular problems then either. If they eventually give her Dantes current LoS mechanics she will be even more consistant. And saying you can nuke maps with sunder isnt true in comparison to the skill we talk about. It's like when one of my old friends went "look at me when I 1HK this mob" followed by him making a massive preperation of debuffs etc. before pulling of his "1HK". Tragedy could literally nuke the map, since it covered the whole map and then some. Sunder nukes a fraction of that, because it doesnt have the range to nuke the map. So while you can use it to AoE clear, it still leaves room for the other members to be in the opposite direction of a defense mission for instance and get kills. That wasnt really an option with Dante there, since he could stand smack dab in the middle and cover every single spawn point by just dumping 33 wherever and then tap 4 to profit. There was no way to get away from that killing floor for anyone because a defense map is only so big. And on other maps it was still requiring you to get 52+ meters away from that Dante, or in reality avoid 104 meters of the map in total. Which in itself is ridiculous, because the moment you stray 25m+ from allies you no longer get shared affinity. So a player would be stuck either doing nothing to get the shared affinity or give up that affinity to have something to do. I'm personally pro-AoE overall, but there is a limit to how deranged it can get in the disruptive sense. Yes, Saryn kills alot, sunder aswell, AoE guns too, but they do so slower or in far far far smaller areas. So people have a chance to both move away to get some kills and still get/grant shared affinity. At some point there must be a limit to the absurdities of AoE. The best thing would be to just remove the base damage of the skill and call it a day since it does nothing in SP but it was massively disruptive on the star chart.

And your math is still the same as before, since you still hit the same amount of enemies with dark verse, you just happen to detonate it earlier aswell.

And? You just proved that LoS works perfectly fine.

It is subjective though, so it doesnt apply to P2W. There must be some objective win and it must be over another player. Same as with dog days, it isnt against other players, just NPCs, P2W describes games that involves competative mechanics and rely on what would otherwise be pay-for-conveniance or pay-to-skip etc. All of those terms were used in non-competative games, then out pops the asia market MMO setups where P2W becomes the thing due to exclusivity and competition meeting behind a paywall. The term simply doesnt refer to NPCs and quest/mission win conditions.

Exactly, aswell as beating people up with a dead kaithe and not the otherway around.

3 presses yes, over and over, but he also hit everything on the map with that third press. There is time to actually kill things with a Saryn around, but Dante was like an accumulated Enox, where he popped the baloons instantly. But I also do think Saryn needs some form of nerf overall. With stretch and augur reach, Dante covered a whole defense map from edge to edge pretty much. And it isnt just that he wipes things on lower maps, he is overall a better frames than Saryn since he has instant access to scaling damage, which ignores armor and can be built somewhat reliably to ignore shields aswell (as if he would need it with the damage he deals). The main issue is that people talk as if he went from this monster DPS into Calibum. He is still a monster DPS and still one of the best frames in the game in practically every aspect with defensive and offensive buffs to provide for his team and himself. The only thing he doesnt really have is a way to defend objectives. And it is due to those low missions it was nerfed since it was according to DE disruptive going by what they've said earlier in connection to Wukong and AoE changes. Yes I agree it is trivial damage outside lowbie missions and I wouldnt mind if it was removed together with LoS because it would keep him just as strong as he is for SP and beyond, while letting people skip around and prime things. I mean, there is little reason for him to nuke whole lowbie maps, since the missions will be cleared fast anyways with more people getting to do thing and with less risk you get a numbnut scribe that kills reactant flow in low fissures aswell. It is also better if that damage portion is removed since it will learn players how to play him higher up as they progress. There are different states of what they can consider happy with his damage. The damage is intact, the way to deal the damage changed, since it was likely considered disruptive. It had little impact where it matters (SP and above), so it wasnt a nerf to the damage itself. And how is he nerfed in enclosed spaces? He always needed LoS due to Dark Verse. He is only changed in low content where others help you keep up the overall speed anyways. In those places you can instead you run around and Dark Verse things to death, yeah sure you wont clear the whole map per cast, but others will also have something little to do. A basline 30m 50 degree cone with slash damage should be... uhm sufficient to do low content quickly.

And I think that applies to several things regarding Dante and the nerfs. I am constantly wondering if people are actually playing him when they spew forth some of the things they do, since some of it is outlandish to say the least. Which is why I supported the change suggested earlier, since it is sensible in all reasoning and also honest regarding the state of LoS atm. I'm fairly sure that if they remove LoS on Tragedy, the next step will be people screaming and demanding that the LoS on Dark Verse should be "reverted" even though it always was intended to be a LoS skill. Because that is the mentality of most of the current "muh Danti!" crowd. Regarding Saryn. As I implied to the other fellow about sunder. Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean they need to leave the flood gates open. I'd much rather see LoS added to Saryn if they can get LoS to work, since it would be healthier for the whole game. They can even compensate it by doing something about her total decay or reapplication decay cost. However, I also think they should be careful about the LoS implementations and apply it on a skill-to-skill basis. Skills that can reach a whole map certainly needs it, but not in all cases, since some have other mechanical interactions that stop what they can or cannot hit. Like Lavos 4, which reaches far far far, but only hit things around the actual physical part of the skill, meaning it balances itself out the further it reaches, since the gap between those physical parts of the skill ends up wide in the end. Miasma is also a skill that wouldnt fit with a LoS, since it is an airborne virus. There are many things they can do with the skills to balance them better to allow no-Los or require LoS. +200% ish strength, +30% efficiency, enough +duration for 90sec buffs, +35% cast speed, Nourish instead of book, Energy Nexus, +45% range. Book modded for pure heat and crit and as much status as possible. Weapons: Torid, Grimoire (energy utility on demand) and Dual Ichor. Pet: Smeeta currently since I have 40+ days more of 2x loot boosts active, otherwise it will end up being either Panzer, Robo-dog or Adarza. Focus: Naramon so I can build combo overtime and never have it drop to much for when I need to hit something. Weapon most used is Grimoire in order to make Book start attacking and for buffing up Xata. How is it costing you more if you didnt kill things earlier and had to redo the rotation? Anything beyond 3+3 before doing 4 is a waste. So playing him in a "Kullervo", "Dagath" or "Protea" style was already more beneficial than trying to pull off some 360 killing. He was far ahead of Saryn.