SneakyErvin

Seeing XXX in the title and eagerly enters the thread only to be disappointed. No nudes, no assets, no pr0n, no grils.

Oh I definently agree that WF is unique and covers many categories.

Please read what is said before answering with something random and unrelated. This isnt about any of what you talk about. It is about what is actually being sold versus what the avarage player without WF knowledge will assume they actually buy. This has zero to do with story continuity, and everything to do with content that can/cannot be played after purchasing a skip to "the end". If I didnt have experience with WF and just jumped in and saw a skip function to reach the latest update I would assume that it would mean the latest content is the only relevant content and everything prior to that just optional and can be fully ignored. And that is the part that is the actual whole damn problem with what they plan to sell. Since what you say here is the opposite of what players would expect to get from a skip function in a game. And the reason why @(PSN)rexis12points out it would be effectively false advertising if they dont make that part very very very crystal clear. Heck, it could even be considered bait-and-switch since WF is just that different in progression compared to other games out there. They'd pay for something that wouldnt really help them, since the amount of quests isnt the actual problem, the grind and timers are, which is what blocks people from catching up to friends properly. Even removing the grind requirements that are part of the quests would do little, since they'd still have to clear the star chart and gear up to get anything interesting out of their playtime with friends, unless their idea of fun is getting carried. Which makes the story skip look horrible, since it looks like DE wants to cash in before people get bored. Since the grind to catch up to friends isnt removed, so they either get bored there or they catch a ride with their friends and get bored from that. Practically the same as people leaving now, but with the skip DE is dangling a shiny infront of those new players which might result in them paying before getting bored while really having nothing of what gets them bored in the first place removed.

None of what you say above this section matters, since I never talked about the general idea of paying to skip in WF, or any other game for that matter. This is soley about paying to skip the story and what it actually does in relation to what many players unfamiliar with WF would think. So unless they go into very specific details regarding what is actually sold, the pay to skip function regarding the story could very well be seen as false advertising since it is so specific to how WF actually works as a game. That they can get there by skipping isnt the problem, what they actually pay to skip is. And the part I bolded here is a clear indicator that you dont really look at it from a perspective of WF's progress, but instead that of a linear game. They'll pay for a minimal amount of skip and a brief period in the new content before they are slung back into the old game to do the mandatory grind for all useful items that they just thought they skipped past like how it would work in a regular game. If WF was a regular linear game I wouldnt have any issue with what DE tries to do, since it would simply skip everything and let new players focus soley on the latest content from that point, where everything else would be optional simply for fluff reasons. That isnt the case in WF, since the item progression or progression as a whole comes from all parts of WF, from the earlier parts to the very latest. Again, I'm not opposed the idea of people being able to skip, I'm against how it will be implemented in this very specific case. One other thing to consider with a skip is if DE releases more content set up like Dagath, where you need syndicates unlocked to use a new mission type and so on. They'd have to constantly keep skippers in mind with all new content even if the content itself isnt tied to story progress steps.

When you sound like you are reciting wikipedia, maybe actually read the wikipedia site that you recite. The same site that brings up Warframe as a specific influental game to the looter shooter sub genre. Also procedurally generate loot doesnt only refer to that the stats are RNG, it refers to a roll being made when you kill a mob regarding if something drops or not. Like running Midgets or Trees over and over in BL2 in hopes to get their specific drops to even drop, while the game also has the stat RNG layer when something drops. Or SW2 monster farming in general to get the right upgrades while the weapons in the game are predefined and guaranteed to obtain from certain places and activities. I've never played Runescape. If the gear progression is based around farming loot with RNG drop rates from specific places then yes it is very much a looter. The moment RNG gets involved in the itemization and promotes re-running a certain encounter for either better rolls on guanranteed drops or a chance for a specific item to drop at all it is effectively a looter. WF has blueprints/components for specific items both from bosses and trash, WF has RNG drop rates for mods from specific mobs, bosses, puzzles etc, WF has RNG based stat loot in Rivens, RJ components and nemesis weapons. We chase loot, that is pretty much the core of WF, we also use third person shooter gunplay, it is the very definition of looter shooter. It is hard to like something that is 100% unrelated to the game. What defines an MMO has nothing to do with what you think, since it isnt mutually exclusive to what is discussed. The 3 major keypoints that define if a game is an MMO or not are the following. 1. Server structure. There to allow a massively multiplayer interaction between players. WF allows for up to uhm a whooping 8 players (when trials exsisted) to interact at the same time. Path of Exile which runs on dedicated servers does not even achieve this, since it is still limited to 4 player groups while also missing the next two following keypoints. 2. A persistant world which is possible due to point 1 being achieved. WF has no persistance in the world. When players exit an instance that instance dies, while in an MMO it continues on no matter if there are 100 or 0 players currently in it. The exception is often dungeons, but even those can live on after exit if instanced. Some games dont even use instances for dungeons, so they live on infinitely. 3. Sporadic unplanned player to player interaction. Something that does not exsist in WF either. You will not run around in the world and accidentally bump into another player. You must be open to a public group and then either end up as client or host. These points are what seperates MOs from MMOs, this is what makes WF, Martyr, Outriders, PoE, Shadow Warrior 2 and Borderlands arpg/looter shooter MOs and a game similar to them like Marvel Heroes (R.I.P) an MMO(ARPG). What other systems they have incommon or not doesnt matter on wether or not they are MMOs.

Yeah, those points you bring up is why I dont think DE should sell it. Because if someone is used to the linear games they'll expect that the skip they buy brings them to the new endgame. But in WF many old parts are also endgame, not only the absolutely latest content. Which is why it seems as if whoever looked at this at DE only looked at other games and forgot how WF is actually set up in comparison. Which is also what makes selling this content look so shady and greedy, even if the intent very likely wasnt that at all.

I've never looked at companions as something I'd bring to kill things, I've always looked at them as something to bring to make me kill things better, or use some precepts for something specific. And with the recent rework those two things improved greatly since we suddenly got more viable pet options and actually more specific choices per frame. Some of the new bonds surely are bad, but something like Manifold should not be looked at as a direct damage tool, it should be seen as what it is, a free primer when combined with the right pets and weapons. Right now I run 5 different Panzer setups. 1 for Atlas, 1 for Khora, 1 for Hydroid, 1 for Ivara/Titania and 1 general stat stick if I ever want to use it. I also run several similar but different setups for my hound, with differences in either hound or weapon modding, or both. All designed to cover damage types not available to the frames mostly, with minor overlapping for weapons. Like on Dagath where I run a hound with corrosive+heat even though Dagath has heat on her weapon. Cold was fun, but the CC from heat is just such a nice utility added to Manifold. And on Lavos I can run a nice combo to get more unique elements up in preperation of launching his #4. The pets currently still suffering are the pure melee beast companions, or practically any beast but the panzer. The bonds just do so very little for most of the beasts since they cannot combine the melee focused bonds with something like Manifold. If they had access to that mod and it applied their modded melee statuses, then seismic and vicious could have been intersting, and if it applied to things like swipe, pounce and sharpened claws it would be even better. But as it is the full melee beasts are just running around looking confused while doing little. And if you want them for fire rate and crit, you might aswell just make a panzer stat stick, since it goes sentinel mode when it is downed and continues to shoot quills in that form, and you can also keep spawning duplex clones during that time.

I dont see how that changes anything or makes the p2s less of a bad idea. All I see are reasons as to why they shouldnt add a p2s and instead rework the quest progression steps. Regarding the final remark. Just because something is already in a bad state it doesnt mean more bad should be added ontop of it. It's like when people ask for more power and others say we dont need it and those asking go "but it is already so imbalanced, so might aswell add more for fun".

Only the CD reduction worked/works on it. I had high hopes for Cordon and it was one of the first things I tested and got utterly disappointed that it didnt work.

No, the core defining element is simply loot hunting, it doesnt matter if it has RNG stats or not. And no the other characteristics are simply RPG mechanics, or in the case of social features MO mechanics. Being an MMO (which is not an opposite of arpg/looter shooter or mutually exclusive) requires underlying fundamental design, such as a server structure and specific social interactions that we just dont have access to here, not are there access to that in games like PoE or D3 either. We have no sporadic social interaction nor a living persistant world. Everything is instanced and comes down to active grouping if you want to engage with others. And just because "most" MMOs were horizontal it doesnt mean all were, nor does it changes anything for a game to be a looter shooter or arpg, since being horizontal or not is not a requirement to determine the loot hunt loop or the combat. Star Wars Galaxies for instance was a sandbox based MMORPG, no real linear progression, no strict goals etc. That didnt change that it was both an MMO and a RPG. But it is everything like a looter shooter in comparison. WF isnt isometric, it relies on abilities, melee and guns, where the guns have actually shooter mechanics, like ammo, reload, spread, aiming, recoil etc. We also farm loot from monsters and bosses aswell as grab things from vendors i.e a looter. And please stop using the acronym MMO, since there is nothing MMO about WF. It is just an arpg with optional co-op and part of the looter shooter sub genre. It just has a heavier focus on the rpg elements like crafting, reputation and gathering compared to others like Outriders or Borderlands. You'd effectively have to remove the gunplay and melee mechanics in order for it to not be a looter shooter. And again, not MMO-systems. It's RPG systems. MMO refers to something completely different. Firefall, Defiance = MMO-looter shooters for instance. WF, Outriders and Borderlands = MO-looter shooters, where the MO part is optional and not persistant.

Yes, it is due to the massive initial combo count it can reach by just killing 100 enemies with your primary. Without a riven and just the regular +initial combo count mods and ceramic dagger perks it sits at uhm 8x combo at all times iirc. edit: Oh yeah and it adds crit chance aswell through another perk, which is added straight to her whip's base crit chance aswell.

Nope, never applied to Cordon, just as it doesnt apply to any other precept either if it doesnt deal damage or inflict a status naturally. Pulls and knockbacks do not count as statuses. Though according to the update it is a known issue for Manifold that it doesnt count for all abilities that hit an enemy. It doesnt work on Whiplash Mine either on Moas. But it works on Repo Audit since it applies a magnetic status when the disarm occurs.

Yeah Ballas only mentions the bio-drones, and those are mentioned in connection to how the sentients turned the Orokin tech against them. And I assume that tech refers to the ape-crazy weaponry that seems to come from that era of the Orokin Empire, like what Ballas' staff seems to be. It wouldnt be impossible if Leph is a failed or intended early "warframe" test. I mean Ancients are the result of infested Orokin scientists iirc. So Leph might be a pre-helminth experiment. They did on Deimos, by detonating a bombs to infest the surface to potentially slow down or completely lock out the sentient from getting inside. It's what the Citrine story describes, but we know it didnt really go as planned since uhm well the Entrati dont look 100% fine.

Right now Incarnon Ceramic Dagger is too conveniant due to the stats it allows pseudo exalteds to inherit. But I wouldnt be surprised if it gets nerfed for those skills. As for weapon stats. PPP, BR, WW, Glad Might, OS, PFS, 90% electric and either riven or slash mod to increase that weighting. Running Nourish instead of entangle which results in alot of passive viral spread as venari, panzer and duplex clones run around among the enemies and getting hit. You can probably also skip elemental mods for pure slash, or go with pure heat.

That is a really odd statement when WF practically shares nothing with MMOs but has alot of similarities to Borderlands, which in itself is like a shooter Diablo. The few things that really sets WF apart from Diablo and Borderlands is that 99% of WF item hunting is based around blueprints and crafting that results in no RNG stats. And there is no classic level progression so replacing items/gear doesnt occur as often or in the same sense as in Diablo or Borderlands. But other than that they are nearly identical with specific boss or tile runs to get X item and so on. Also for that matter, looter shooter is simply a sub-genre of arpgs, while Diablo, PoE and Grim Dawn are considered isometric hack 'n slash arpgs, Borderlands is a looter shooter, WF is a horde looter shooter rpg and Outriders would be a tactical looter shooter rpg. Borderlands just misses the rpg mark since you play an already exsisting character with its pre-defined personality and history.

I gotta say this for Hydroid. He is a crazy weapon platform that also has some of the best support in the game through his Plunder Augment. I'm currently sitting with a build with just over 200% strength in addition to the plunder augment. That puts my self buffs at near 1900 armor and 500% corrosive, while healing myself and allies (including pets and such) for 100+ health per enemy hit. And in high level content where there are always enemies around, hitting the cap and healing for large amounts if needed is extremely simple. This combined with Nourish and Avenger, and guns like Torid, Dual Toxocyst or Furis with Gas+Cold builds plus a Panzer with crit damage buff and duplex bond leads to insane damage potential and group utility. Blessing ontop of that to make both the pet and Hydroid more durable with some very nice healing tandem between the two aswell.

Which is why the grind should be reduced and the whole p2s idea be scrapped. Since p2s will just not help at all, atleast not the players. While you bring up good points regarding Umbra, how will they treat paracesis? Will it be pre-built or will it still need all the materials for it, like ducats etc? Does this mean the pack price with also get hiked up to justify the "plat sink" that ducats otherwise are? And what about all things that the player might want to grind for in the latest release, that will likely also require alot of old materials among the new, which is pretty common throughout WF? Not to mention slots to actually build and use those more likely than not fodder items that they just farmed from the latest content. Which they probably also get the impression are BiS because they come from the latest content in the game. I'd say p2s is the opposite of perfect, heck the opposite of perfect doesnt even describe it. But I do understand why they are looking at it, even though it seems like people that have never touched WF are looking at it. I'm kinda prepared to bet my left nut or both on DE having hired a consultant to come up with ideas for a catch up mechanic, a consultant probably not familiar with WF at all. Atleast it reeks of it. If it is someone at DE that has come up with it I gotta shoot straight here and say with full honesty "get back in touch with your game and get a grip!". And I'm not saying that to be mean, I think it is more a result of "staring too long into the sun" if the idea came from someone within DE. And yeah I'm really glad this got mentioned in the devstream and people reacted so harshly and quickly, and that we got the thread soon after with a wide variety of feedback on why this is bad bad bad. I just really hope they also do listen and scrap this idea and maybe postpone any catch up ideas they might have for Whispers, and instead restructure the old quest experience in preperation for 1999.

Dagath. She's fun, different and so bonkers powerful. Plus her abilities are visually stunning and oh so pleasing. Hydroid even with his rework just doesnt suit me. Sure he's better but he more or less ends up as another weapon platform since his skills have trouble killing on their own. I'll likely redo some stuff on him, probably drop his barrage since it feels kinda pointless when you have tentacles along with constant corrosive on his weapon that stacks quickly. Barrage is just too damn random and slow.

The problem is just that they wont actually be accessing that content. They'll access the quest and then potentially the replayable mode tied to it. However, take a look at past releases. Look how messy Deimos was for undergeared people trying to farm the vaults, getting wrecked by the mechs there while having gear poorly suited to kill them due to their mechanics. Or what a pain in the ass it was in RJ when you ended up with a noob captain flying their paper railjack. Or how troubled people are with loaner items in Circuit (not even SP). That will be the experience those new player pay to access quickly once done with the latest quest. Since none of them will be properly geared for anything. And going by recent releases, Whispers game modes after the quest will likely be the new baseline "star chart" max level at that. So even less probability a new player that skipped will have a grand ol time there.

I dont see the point at all when you can already buy frames on day 1 for real money. What would be the point of a sub-based vendor that practically ends up doing the exact same? And since you already enjoy "the basics, acquiring and unlocking new Prime stuff" you likely have plat from that to buy new regular frames and weapons when they arrive. So even less of a point for a sub-based vendor.

All of that cannot be said enough times. A thing to add is that within DE there have been heated discussions/debates regarding this according to themselves, they said so much straight up in the devstream. That means there are clear and present issues with this whole idea. And I think it comes down to a severe case of detachment and distancing for some behind this idea. With too much looking at other games and not how their own is set up in comparison to those they look at. With no real thought or consideration regarding why it is possible in those other games, even though those games also have massive issues tied to it. And this isnt the first time they look at other games and forget what WF is and why it works in those other games but not in WF. Like Kahl Veilbreaker, a generic shooter experience with no ties to the looter/arpg that WF is. No progression, no farm, no loot, nothing.

I mean in the eyes of the public. Since if they sell this and fail to convey down to the detail exactly how limited this skip will be there are likely many gaming sites, magazines and individual critics and content creators that will give DE and the game massive flak. Which will spill over to new projects, like Soulframe. It has happened for other companies, so no reason DE will be shielded from making poor decisions. And if they are truely transparent with what will actually be part of the skip, I cant really see it selling all that much. Which makes me think it is even more pointless compared to just going back and implement what is needed directly into the quests/rewards so people can just start with doing the quest line. I mean, they are currently "looking at other games" as they put it, but how then have they missed plain old regular story setups that you can more or less do before starting with the actual farm of the game. Diablo, Borderlands, Shadow Warrior 2, Outriders, Grim Dawn, PoE, Inquisitor Martyr and so on and so on. Games of similar design where you engage with the story and follow it, then engage with the "endless" progression after that.

I'll just grab my good ol pal Loki for eventual on the fly drone bug fixing and quicker phase completion, the reliable Vestilok for stripping and quite possibly Burston Incarnon and uhm Dual Toxocyst or Furis incarnon to wipe out Mini-Lephy. If they've fixed the drone pathing (lol how silly of me to think that would actually happen) I'll probably just swap in my main man Lavos since I tend to get bored from constantly teleporting the drone. Might equip the big boom archwing at that point for bouncing the drone along. edit: Definently looking forward to SP Plague Star.

Well yeah that explains why you find it useful. Target farming still end sup much faster if you actually need something. You wont get much from regular mission types for Bile with the same return value as say Isos from RJ or plasm from the Zariman, or maybe Thermal Sludge from OV. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy Pluto survival since it gives me Nav Cords and Morphics overtime as I simply do SP. For me Smeeta is dead because it just gives me too little of the things I actually care about while adding more and more meaningless crap resources I already have millions of. Yeah not sure why they added on-kill for the pets. Some of them with the right combinations of mods can pull it off, but at the same time you waste so much that instead benefits your frame that already kills things. I love the mods that make my companion better which in return makes me better. Like status stacking, which increases my weapon damage output significantly thanks to gun-CO. Or on frames like Khora and Atlas, +1.5x crit damage on either Panzer or Venari, then duplex bond and hunter recovery, combined with Nourish for some wild viral stacking as all the pets run around, and Primed Pack Leader to keep the main pets constantly filled with OG.

It matters because it will not just be about how they can attract those players it also matter how it will actually reflect on DE. It may turn out being a big risk for little return that instead ends up staining the name of the game and DE. Since this system does not actually cater to those players even if DE thinks so. And that reason is because WF is not a linear game, so those players are really only skipping the stories to get to a point that they think is the latest content. But it is in the end only a quest that they unlock this way, they still need to do all of the rest of the game, because it is all still viable content in WF since again WF isnt linear, so the best itemization and progress is not isolated to the latest content. DE wants to implement this due to seamingly having this assumption that a new player will actually know how WF is designed, when in reality a new player very likely wont. Which makes this look like a cash grab approach to cash in on players early on. Since they sell something that doesnt actually represent the majority of the gameplay or connects with the sandbox nature of WF progress. If this was a linear game I'd prolly see this as beneficial, since most things prior to the latest update would very likely be obsolete, and whatever can be done in the latest content will be what is relevant to progression. But that just isnt how WF works and likely never will. Plus dont forget that the whole "play with friends" idea DE is pushing here is really far fetched. Because several of the people that might have friends are already frequent SP runners, so them grouping up with friends that just started wont be a reality. And when the friends eventually end up in SP to play with those far progressed friends, it will just be carries since those newer players will be horribly undergeared. So skipping the story doesnt really do much for the "latest content", since they will experience the story and then be thrown back into the old to get any form of wortwhile progress done, that or getting severely carried through it all after the quest. Which just leads to the same burn out quit that current carries do. The difference is DE got money from them before they quit from the same reasons they would have quit otherwise.