quxier

Balance argument is kind of "not great". Styanax: You are stripped from most powers, actions etc while in the 4th. However you can do much better with 1-3, weapons, subsumes (e.g. Aquablades) etc. There is no point in using 4th except augment and "looks cool". Hydroid were more breaking other people "fun". You could lock enemies inside puddle (not sure if you could shoot puddle to damage enemies). If that's what you mean by "balance" then sure. Still they could change a little (e.g. no longer pulls enemies inside puddle, stuns enemies etc) Wisp's, Caliban's, Mesa's and Voruna's is like Styanax' case (some are more visible some are less). Some of them has already build "balancing act" in base ability. So you have Mesa that drains energy per second and cannot replenish it from some sources. Then the more you activate it the less enemies it could affect (so it's harder to aim). Wisp/4 is like Mesa's but without "worse aiming" Voruna/4 at base has 5 shoots. So if you are going to waste shots then there is no point in using 4th ability. With augment you get more (potentially infinity) shots. Still it's similar issue - why bother with 4th or Helminth while you can use only part. Caliban/1 already does small damage, drains a lot of energy and is bugged with floating collectibles. At this point it's more about annoyance of such abilities than proper balance (pros & cons of our actions). But it's fair that some frames can use Helminth freely, even having some nice synergies but not those frames/abilities? That's just excuse, imho. Ok, so, what's the point of creating frames, weapons etc? Some frames/weapons look amazing but I can look at them in some 'imageboard'. This is a game and it should have "game things". Look at Ghoulsaw. It's far from perfect weapon but we can see they have tried. Ride mechanic were suppose to put enemies on ground (we have seen an animation) but we are at least affecting enemies. Look at new melee types: Heavy scythe and Dual Nikanas. There is no "soul" in them. They are no different than dozen of melees we already have. Look at Voruna's 4th "standing" pose. Why bother with it when she could do the same with normal pose? We have flying schools. We have probably some other unnecessary stuff that could go into proper game mechanic. We (at least I) don't expect perfection. However when I can see some long animations (e.g. STyanax), something that takes lots of things without giving back too much (Merulina, Caliban/1 etc), or new weapon types that are copy paste with some fancy animations (H.Scythe, 2xNikana) then I wonder if they want people to just admire their visuals or play their game. And in case of abilities, why not: turn off ability > cast other ability > turn on previous ability? With some small changes (e.g. no or less energy drain, faster cast time etc) you could achieve "good enough" results without working a casu ad casum.

There are more frames with that double standards. - Styanax could cast any ability during 4th - now he cannot (so not serious technical issue) - Hydroid could use abilities during Undertow (removed) - Caliban can use only 2nd ability during Razor gyre (1st) - Wisp can cast her 1st (or 2nd, that ghost thing) during 4th - Xaku won't stop timers for helminth abilities - Voruna cannot cast helminth during 4th - Sevagoth cannot infuse into Shadow Some form of afk is allowed while another isn't. Some are powerful some are not. Xaku can just refresh timers (with 4th) and just can go. Yareli can keep Aquablades for 45 second with other stuff while Styanax/4th just aims. Yareli/Aquablades can deal status and do some damage yet Caliban's Razor gyre cannot deal status (or it's small) and has much lower damage. IN addition you cannot use most stuffs with Aquablades (not with Razor gyre). Some has abilities that works on their own and synergies (e.g. Wisp's). Some has synergies without properly defined abilities (more or less Dagath). It's just some kind of mess.

Umbra Forma is always a pointless drop for me, but I'm not going to complain cuz I'm still getting stuff for free that they don't have to hand out. I appreciate whatever they are in the mood to offer us. With the update coming next week I'd love a few potatoes for the new gear we will be getting. Feels like the right choice for a lot more of the playerbase as well. You get free potatoes after watching 2/3 hours. You can get enough plat and other stuff by playing a game. Something more rare or harder to get (e.g. Eidolon shards) would be better for me (e.g. I don't do eidolons so those last few shards let me unlock some focus). Then some timegated content like Archon shards would be nice too. But that's just subjective. But what you can say? Every time we say "we don't like X but want Y" may be read as "oh no, I made wrong choice again".

Probably MANY times. Things like "formaing slot unlock polarities" or "every config can have different polarites".

That's Sentient. Void is poison for them. There is nothing I'd be aware off connecting infestation with the void in any way. Isn't it just we are immune to infestation (afair) and we can control other beings (at least in quests)?

I mean, that's what the next arc is about. I'm pretty sure Whisper In the Walls is gonna enlighten us a bit. Then again, DE kinda jumps between introducing a deep-cut reference to obscure Akkadian mythology and expertly interweaving him with a story about forgiveness, hate, loss, trauma and manipulation... and then dropping a surprise 180 heel-face turn for 5 minutes and killing him off with no aplomb with rocks. So who really knows how DE's gonna tell the story. Least of all DE it sometimes feels. Zariman were like this as (itroducing Ten-0 etc) well and we get... mess. Pre angel update "quest" (things posted in sites etc) were much better. I know you mean small rocks (that most people can lift) but meteors are rocks as well. ;) That's what I liked about game Advent rising (stuff about rocks were from this game). I can do one better Brat *click* Noice

Ah you're right. Also in the process of writing a witty response, I just remembered that the Folk of Leng aren't just from the Dreamlands, they're from the Dreamlands moon. And that's one TOO many coincidences given that DE definitely know their Lovecraft and aren't afraid to do deep cut literary references (Erra maps surprisingly well onto his mythological counterpart). And the Men of Leng could easily be mistaken for a classic demon, since they have horns, oversized mouths full of sharp teeth, and cloven hooves. So, the Tenno being mistaken for a Demon, whilst actually the servants of something far, far worse would map. I might have stumbled onto something here, and this alarms me. I wonder if they ever go that deep into the void lore. We had Zariman and main boss is just "enemy from the void". After so many years we don't really know too much about void or Man in the wall in particular.

How 'bout I do anyway? Angel is one option, and notably one we are called. Transcendence does has us levitate surrounded by radiant light with energy flowing out of our backs like wings. But anyway, in much Christian Mythology, Angels and Demons are functionally interchangable, the difference being who they work for. Indeed the term 'Angel' derives from Greek - Aggelos, pronounced Angelos. Indeed, the armies of heaven are typically described as being mightier as the armies of hell so one might make the argument that it's a more apt description, especially since Tenno also raise the weak and humble to power a lot. But of course, that would imply the being that empowers us is in any way 'good', which is... a dubious assertion at this time. There are already "Void angels".

it would be more appropriate if i could use my melee as a primer like Epitaph but I currently do not know the best one for this task...arum spinosa is good for single target priming, and that's all I know. either ways, I have stopped using melee as a damage weapon...it's just not worth it for me. Maybe some high range builds. Using slams + roll (to cancel) seems nice. Then there is Void status (Xaku's) that can be used on all frames. Try some - maybe some will work for you. Spamming E doesn't make melee simple. Maybe your definition of "spamming" is different but from what I read/know it's about repeating same action (in this case tapping, now holding, melee button). If one action can be used for different situations then it makes such system simple. Hence when you say that melee doesn't need more than "spamming one key" then you cannot make complex system.

By your definition of bullet sponge I agree. If that's the entire 'difficulty' of the boss, it's bad, yes. But it seems like we agree that bosses should have substantially better EHP than an average enemy. More hp? Sure, However not something like archon. Change in damage/hp from normal enemies or even bosses is huge. Not sure what standard is. I had experience of random death. That's honestly low standards. "Death = failure" is good when you can do stuff again in seconds and you know what were wrong. Not simply "oh there are too much guys spamming stuff". I don't know. Every method I've tried failed (it was fine in normal mode). The one I've tried (Mesmer skin) fills like cheat. I don't know if there is method that both "slap every X but make other function bad/boring" I would rather have them be hard to shoot than have too much ehp. At least I would know that's me that is failing. In that case it's just "I don't use X Y Z" and what's worse "I have to grind for something otherwise it will be bad". Boss can just make it harder to shoot. Or you need to do certain stuffs. So on and so forth. Maybe, I don't have fond memories of them. One get bugged and another give me sudden "finish it in few minutes" kind of horrible stuff. I haven't tried it since them. Eidolons might be fine... but they imho dip into bullet sponge as well. Plus you need beat it 3 times. There are other that are better imho like Ropaloli or Glassed guy. They make some bosses nice... but some of us don't like them. Like Glass guy boss is very good but people don't like it.

Well yes but change is... change is how things get changed. They can be bad forever or ... they can get changed. Changing something that is bad is a good thing, even if it has to be incremental for... for... for reasons™. Why in particular do you believe they are bad if I might ask? Is it because of the attenuation or something else? (I mean don't get me wrong, they ARE bad, but I want to know why you think they are bad so I can compare it to why I think they are bad) Bullet sponge isn't necessarily a bad thing imo - bosses DO have to have some beefiness to them after all, unless you want your bosses to be the same EHP as the mobs. Bullet sponge is not "beefiness". Bullet sponge is when boss' difficulty is only/mostly their big HP. Whole ARchon hunts (not only boss fight) has just artificially increased difficulty. 1) There is "death = failure". It prevents from efficient experimentation. 2) We have bullet sponges. You don't bring "huge weapon" then you are just doing fights for very long time. 3) Huge damage. If I'm not cheating with some (near) immortality then have hard time... or rather failure (read 1st). 4) They are not hard to shoot. Shoot: head, triangle thing, some guys that make mini-boss 100% immune to damage etc. Yeah, some are bad (but it's good to have SErgant for Nighwave and it's interesting Persona lore-wise if you think about). There are some good. They are capable to do interesting challenges without doing bullet sponge and damage showers. Angels are good example of it. They are not hard. You need to learn how to react. Only at higher level they require some better gear (for void mode).

> melee being only "hold E" > can have unique new melee types Pick one. It's one thing to want simple melee system. But saying that you can have new melee types where 2 last melee types where,,, not new/unique is just funny. For melee to be new/unique it has to have complex system. Without complexity you cannot mix certain characteristics. "Why bring X when Y is better" is common problem in WF. In Zariman I had k.nukor for lesser mobs or procing AND Chakharr for Angels. In 1 of archon fight I have Shotgun for boss, k.nukor for mobs and Stropha for shooting crystals in one of Sentients.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was a good change. Moving away from the attenuation exploit is a good thing (and should've been instantly corrected imo but w/e, i guess they wanted to play it out) The issue is this inadvertently just made the fundamental problems with the archons worse. I don't like it, but the attenuation exploit was like THE mechanic for these bosses (which is kinda funny/sad when you think about it). Now that it's mostly gone, well what are they but a glorified Phorid? The team just shows up, shoots, walks away. It's lame. Archons were bad. Attenuations or another flavor of bullet sponge is made to make fight longer (that's the definition of bullet sponge). Changing few things won't change that they are bad.

Stances? I just want at least melee types to be unique. Like, lets create Heavy (Big) scythe... that is the same size as smaller one. Or double nikana that is.... nothing new. I've seen similar "style" with very quick but with low range dagger in one game (Gunz). This could be like huge range but low speed. We have it with normal & block combos. You can mix them. They could provide damage mitigation in front of so you have to consider pros & cons. Cons is that you can get hit from behind. What about pros? That's interesting question that I have not answer now.

+1, Heavy attacks should be unique. At least per weapon types. I mean DE can at least do ~20 weapon types (there is 50ish stances). IMHO, every tier/combo should do something visible. ^ like this. Even at low combo you still can see "slash dash". Higher combo make it bigger. ^ now look at this. I have like 8 meters on my Glaive. 2 meters is not visible. It could be like "proc X within modedrange+2/4/6/8 meters". +1 interesting

So exclude/include list. Sure, good suggestion.

I keep my beard/mustache whole year.

As if that will change anything. DE are "untouchable" and no one has the actual balls to attempt to sue them, good luck with that Hex You need money as well. Loosing e.g. 20$ is just nothing compared to cost of suing their company. Such players will probably post some negative post and move on.

All these issues were witnessed against Corpus and Grineer as well, but Steel Path infested is where I usually do my major testing because they have a mix of shields, armor, health, and consistent statuses. Here is the problem. Ability does some damage. You put too much damage it's too strong for both modes. You put more damage than needed for normal mode, you cheese normal mode but get "some" damage for SP. You make it too weak for both and you get useless ability. Imho, simple "give more damage" isn't the answer. It should be both good but not too strong for both modes (normal starchart and sp).

Which goes back to the other points I have already made, is it worth pursuing? Well how about 100 different peoples different suggestions? Are they? Personally, I have seen around 100 different peoples solutions or ideas on improving Steel Path or creating another version of Steel Path or new star char, of harder or middle difficulty, or something else, like "Narmer Path", Nightmrae Steel Path, etc. There probably exists more suggestions. Many overlap, like your idea and the person who created this thread, but many compete and conflict too. Again, I am not personally opposed, I like some ideas more than others, but DE literally can't pursue all of them, and its far more likely that if any of them have especially good ideas, its probably they just get folded into Steel Path (or Arbitrations so on), as opposed to creating another new difficulty level of an entire new star chart with equivalent systems/currency, exclusives etc Other abandoned content isn't a sign or argument that DE can or should just add more indiscriminately. Not all "abandoned" content is necessarily exactly the same. Saying you "feel its worth pursuing" is essentially the same as "I think people would like", and there are 100 other ways to rephrase this, and I don't disagree with you, but even if I agreed with you absolutely, with one hundred percent enthusiasm and flowery words, doesn't magically make it more viable for DE or more realistic either. It still has many issues that would need to be ironed out and enough interest to warrant the actual effort that would be required. Which again, for the record, I am not saying is impossible or that I am personally against. I like a lot of ideas I know probably won't be implemented. So far I've seen mostly suggestion like "the same but more" or "fix/increase enemy spawn". In the first case, "the same but more", I don't think we should create another versions. You create Diamond path with 2x more armor/hp/shield. Then whats next? Titanium path with 4x more? I think some sort of balance is needed instead. In the case of "fix/increase enemy spawn" it should be just fixed/changed. They can teleport enemies around you. They can make spawn them more. They can make drops energy (for excavations) every Nth enemy (or Eximus?). So on and so forth. No need to create another mode. Other cases exist, like you said. Are those changes very different that they cannot be fitted into "first case" nor "2nd case"? Like you mentioned "resistant to guns". Does it have to be only "melee only" mode? If that were the case then it would be other "X only" modes needed (sniper, shotgun, 2nd-ary, glaives etc). That would create myriads of new modes. However some Eximus are already resistant to guns. Corpus shield eximus take more damage with melees. You can adjust enemies to incorporate "X gear to be used for Y" while all gear works ok, some are just better. The more detailed info would require talk with the stuff. So I end there. Yeah its definitely on the more novel side, and plays up to a lot of Warframes strengths. Personally I would be interested, ditto anything with more density, but I also don't think Steel Path is that damage spongy at all either, and I also know I am not the best example of your average Warframe player in many ways. It's not that you cannot make SP easy. It's just SP mostly does enemies stronger without changing anything. One difference is STalkee friends. However they appear rarely (every ~5 minutes afair).

Naturally, but thats where being able to accurately estimate or know what general groups want. Your idea, lets say its implemented but out of 200 players (as a sample) only 10 or so players like it, 100 are apathetic, and the rest dislike it. Would you concede and acknowledge that maybe its not a popular idea? Or maybe 190 people would like it and engage with it, and 5 would be apathetic and only 6 would dislike it. In which case thats a pretty popular idea worth pursuing. The point of contention is "I think that" because its one thing for any of us to think something, we commonly do all the time, and frame claims around those assumptions, beliefs, but entirely something else for us to be good predictors of what others actually want, in the way DE has to. If that makes sense? Its why I am not claiming to know one way or another, because I sincerely don't know. Sure, it's just assumption, whenever it's less or more likely to be right. Is it worth pursuing? I guess? There are people that want faster spawn without bullet sponges or damage showers. There are already modes that are abandoned and yet they still make more. I feel it's worth pursuing as it doesn't require too much effort compared to creating completly new tilesets, enemies or modes (e.g. tileset = Zariman, enemy = thrax units, modes = cascade from zariman). I agree. Like I said, at least personally I could say those new speed mods would be enough incentive for me to want to engage. That being said, I am generally quite pro new things. I'd probably also still go with Steel Path as my default mode if it was harder/more enemies (unless this mode was harder and had more enemy density). Then still has some other issues as others have mentioned too, potentially splitting fanbase further, does your mode have Relic versions, Incursions, Acolytes or an equivalent. Yeah, I was thinking about "Quick path" as alternative to SP - same stuff but instead of bullet sponges and damage showers we got more "speed stuff".

It was a good read thank you. I thought there were some good ideas, I especially like the Rapidus set of mods you thought of. I still think and some of the comments in that thread and this sort of address it already, but the nature of players and adding systems into the game. This thread, emphasises a lot on density and speed, yours speed, spawn, movement etc, but another player might want more emphasis on enemies having more Eximus, or resistant to guns... so melee is more required, or some might want Steel Path with Nightmare modifiers and Acolytes are Eximus... and someone else might want less density but all the enemies are super tough... and Steel Path itself is already not universally beloved or popular... Its a bit like that saying, about trying to appease everyone, but then pleasing no one. Of course, you cannot pleas anyone but you can at least please general "groups". I think groups like speed or ehp folks (sp) would have enough people wanting to play it. You could make customizable modes (e.g. add X hp/armor/damage, make spawn more/all eximus, level etc) but it would be either solo or or pre-made group. I don't think it would be ok to have customizable modes with all players, hence why I like idea of "group dificulity" like SP or "Quick path". Mods/arcanes would be huge benefits but they would be either have to be good enough so people want to buy them OR there have to be some evergreen rewards. SP has Umbra forma, endo and Kuva. Endo & kuva in some shop would be "ok" but there have to be something else. I've not thought about it. What about low level? They would be bad/slow with low spawn rate.

First, yeah, I meant cold status (from e.g. weapons) It's in case you are e.g. with team doing some defense. You can kill enemies fast enough but someone slows enemies down. It makes defense much longer. If their action were slowed down both parties would be happy (more or less).

Like in defense you get Sevagoth/Gloom active. Enemies runs towards you with normal speed but their actions (e.g. shooting, reload, melee attack) are slowed. Only exceptions are some "leap attacks" like Thrax jump melee attack.

I'm not the only one: read above topic