(PSN)AyinDygra

The CURRENT progression in most games, including Warframe, with vertical progression, produces that effect... because they don't continue the progression path for each unique weapon effect/alt fire/ what have you... Warframe has curbed it a bit, at least in the melee category. What I propose, is a system that creates more of a tree of weapons. We already have Mastery Rank separations for weapons in the game. I'd say we would create enough weapon tiers to match the planetary enemy level tiers. A weapon tree wouldn't have to have a representative in each tier, but should advance along the tree, with at least one end-game variety either in the top, or just-below-top tier as the goal. Currently, we have an established system of "base weapon" (existing in an undefined strata of those levels) and Prime or Variant upgrade (ranging from Primes to Syndicates to Lich/Sisters, and now Incarnon systems.) These upgraded weapons don't always place them in "High Level weapons" or "End Game weapons" territory, however. Some are just "side-grades" that are not very popular, overall. My concept boils down to roughly these tiers (broken up by the existing tier reward breakdowns roughly taken from mission levels on the wiki): Training weapons, Low level weapons (Enemy Levels 1-25), Mid Level weapons (Enemy Levels 21-36), High level weapons (Enemy Levels up to 60), End Game weapons (designed for Archon hunts, Steel Path, etc) (and another tier if they add something beyond the power of Steel Path.) My proposed system follows the path Melee already took, but isn't universally implemented across all melee types, and isn't really a thing among guns. * Newbie MK1 (this is the base type that the other trees will all branch off from, like the Braton Mk1 to rifles of all sorts, or the Skana for swords) -> * Base functional weapon of this "tree" (damage type spread, alternate fire, perks like punch through or corpse disintegration) -> * Upgraded stats to work well with mods (higher crit chance or status chance, higher base damage, basically an upgrade, keeping the special aspect of the tree) -> * Variants that help you focus on certain strengths of this weapon tree (this can lean in to the elemental damage type, or increasing the number of chains in a chaining beam, but this should avoid adding new special features that would create a new branch, unless that new branch is the goal.) -> * Versions of the weapon type, keeping the special feature of this tree, but with increased base stats to be competitive in the endgame content. (Generally the Prime version.) In all cases, mods should allow these weapons to be used in level ranges outside of their tier, even into endgame, keeping modding the primary source of progression in Warframe, while weapons and warframes are tools to channel that power in different ways. Weapon trees do not need to have variants in each tier (as modding should cover that.) Not all weapons would need to start their trees at the 2nd tier... they could be introduced at max Star Chart functionality, with a high mastery rank requirement, and only have 1 or 2 upgrades/variants created after them, that keep the main perk of the weapon tree. Overall, a system based on this foundation, would have a branching evolution of weapons that increases in variety as you progress (which DOES become a headache for DE to keep providing upgrades in each weapon tree, and at end game levels, might seem like weapons are created just to have an entry in that category, and could fall prey to a lack of creativity and simple stat increases, which would be sad.)

Ya know, there's this other complaint I've often heard about Warframe: that people don't know what power level they're going to need for content. It's confusing. There are no real "levels" for characters. * Player Mastery Rank is completely unreliable and unrelated to performance in missions. * Warframe level is meaningless, except for having access to all the abilities by rank 10, and some minor base stat boosts (and everyone builds for rank 30 regardless of the content, and you can't retroactively change this to a lower number later, so it's not something you can change to appeal to your concerns anyway.) * Weapon level is meaningless because the stats of the weapon don't change with levels... only mods change how much damage a weapon is doing. * Enemy level is unreliable, because for most players, they don't know the stats of the enemies at each level bracket (you'd need a database-like memory, or go deep into the math on a wiki)... AND they don't know how their mod stats relate to how much damage they're doing to those enemies. Will a 2* Serration be enough damage on a *insert gun* to kill at enemy level X? Or will they need to have a 3* Serration, and an elemental mod, and crit chance increase? These are all extremely nebulous concepts in Warframe. The simulacrum is a testing ground, sure, but even after seven years of using it, I don't get meaningful information out of it. It lets tests be performed in sterile controlled environments that never match actual gameplay, even with AI turned on. You know what most players do? They just stick the most powerful stuff they've got on their gear, and try to go through the game until it's not strong enough. If they've maxxed out all of their mods, and max leveled their frame and weapons, they may look at the selection of Mods they have equipped, and change things up... perhaps going to youtube to research build guides that they haven't thought of. To achieve what you're asking for is asking A LOT from players who just want to have casual fun in Warframe, an already complex game without taking your stipulations into account.

I want you to be able to have fun. I understand what you want out of the game. I'm just saying that it's not the way the majority of players in PUGs expect to play; demonstrably, because you have this experience so often that it has caused you to post a complaint thread about it. Your solutions boil down to: * to have everyone out there who enters PUGs become mind readers and pre-build their characters to either fit your specifications if they know they'll be with someone like you, or build to their peak power for speed of farming like nearly everyone else in PUG groups (especially relics, where I'd say most PUG groups happen.) or * to have the devs implement a filter so people can select "Farming or Playing" (which still won't filter all of these people out, because to many farmers, THAT IS what playing the game means to them.) or * to have the devs nerf nuke frames, so they CAN'T kill as fast, thus, they wouldn't be able to negatively impact your personal subjective fun while playing PUG missions, AND their SOLO play, which the nerf won't distinguish between, because it will universally impact everyone. While everyone else here in this thread is proposing the solution that already exists in the game, but you don't think you have to consider: * form your own parties from recruit chat or clan, with players who also share your subjective opinion of fun. I'm trying to see how you think your solution(s) is(are) better or more reasonable than the last option.

? This is still very much on topic... and being approached from nearly every angle possible... It's not going to result in anyone on either side changing their minds about what they think is fun, and how they continue to act in the game, but at least the issues will be clarified. Now, if the Devs come along, and read this to get the playerbase perspective on how they view the fun of the game, and the impact of nuke builds on our fun... at least it won't be a one-sided complaint thread that nuke builds are bad... they'll see that a large group of PUG players LIKE the nuke frames doing what they're doing. It's not an objectively bad way to play the game that is always hurting the enjoyment of the rest of the players in those PUG groups.

I'm just going to point this out, because you obviously missed the point because it wasn't spelled out for you precisely: relates to purchases such as Boosters, which have limited periods of time while they're active. The more missions you can cram into the time while they're active, the more value you get out of them. Your subjective idea of fun is objectively going slower in missions such as Extermination, building "to the level of the content" so that content is still challenging to some extent, or requires teamwork... which would be FAR slower than running it like most PUGs would run it. This means, your subjective idea of fun would impact the time and cash related purchases of other players negatively... there is NO wiggle room to that conclusion. Even if people aren't spending their money on boosters, your subjective idea of fun is wasting the time of people who want to accomplish as much as they can in the short amount of time they are playing the game. Your subjective idea of fun is not providing a corresponding increase in rewards at the end of mission screen. It is objectively negatively impacting everyone else in your PUG that doesn't share your subjective view of fun.

While Inaros is slated to get a rework, I dread what they plan to do to him. My greatest fear is that they gut his kit and play style to appease the people who don't play him, at the expense of those who do, like me. This is what I personally hope for... but I don't expect... I expect to just not be playing much Warframe in the future.

I'm just going to address this part of it... Destiny was brought up, and it's highly appropriate. Destiny's "Light Levels" aren't increases in power as you progress... they're "You must be THIS tall to ride this amusement park ride" gates. Gaining Light Level in Destiny just removes a negative modifier placed on your damage against things above your light level. There is absolutely no advancement. There's no reason to get different weapons, except for the perks and how they handle. (I quit Destiny2 at the point near when they released the Osiris expansion, if things have changed since then.) Note, that Warframe has MUCH more diversity of "how weapons work" and "how they handle"... but unique weapons generally don't have upgrade paths that keep them relevant as the power of other weapons rise... I don't think everything needs and Incarnon (I don't engage with the Incarnon system, because consistency of weapons is of primary importance, and the goal of Incarnons is to produce an "ebb and flow" of combat with ups and downs, by the devs' own words, that doesn't appeal to me one iota.) As a dev, I'd strive to have "tiers" of weapons, and then release upgrades into that progression path, so people who like a certain style of weapon can continue to enjoy it all the way up the proogression path to endgame, with variants at each stage. Obviously, this creates "mastery fodder" once you're doing content with end game tier weapons, but that creates a broader range of end game options... the horizontal growth you say you want, at the same time as providing players like me, the vertical progression system. There are ways to creatively address the issues here, and Warframe has more tools and avenues to do so. I just don't see them taking advantage of those ways very often.

(I hope that spoiler quoted the lengthy post) What you describe there sounds like a nightmare to me. I would NOT enjoy playing the game, were those conditions present, with all things being equal, completely balanced and bland, with no reason to get better things, because everything is the same... you've described the death condition of a game, in my book. It's the end of progression. The end of reasons to play. The end of fun. I despise damage attenuation. I despise Khal, Veso and Teshin gameplay. I hate playing as the Drifter in Duviri. Although, I expected the Arthur part to be worse... he's just the Excalibur frame, and his melee was acceptable in his one mission so far - the jury is obviously still out on his future performance in the rest of the 1999 story. DE's de-powering of players during missions is making me dislike the missions a great deal - it's not making anything any more fun. The New War was pure TORTURE. (And before anyone gets snarky and says "if you hate the game so much, why do you even play anymore?" Because the solo missions in the rest of the game are PURE FUN, with my full loadout that I've collected and built up over the years, and am comfortable playing the game with, rather than pre-set (or random, in the case of Duviri) de-powered loadouts that strip all fun from the game.) The whole teamwork thing is being blown out of proportion, as an important thing. Warframe's co-op just means that everyone in a mission is working to achieve the same objective... not that they NEED each other to achieve that objective, they just aren't working AGAINST each other. As long as the mission objective is completed, Good Job Everyone. The issues arise when a single player can accomplish the mission objective, but has to enter the mission in multiplayer mode for efficiency, when they'd otherwise have gone solo AND other players in that mission WANTED to do more... to have more kills on the end of mission report or somesuch nonsense. DE's intentions with nerfing have never matched up with the reality of playing the game. They feel like unnecessary changes that make absolutely no sense in the context of the game after a few more months of releases bring things even stronger than the previously nerfed thing... if they undid previous nerfs to coincide with the present power structure of the game, it might feel better, but they never reverse nerfs when the balance of the game changes. Those things are permanently sledgehammered into the ground - for no "good" reason (you may think they're "good" reasons, I do not.) So, in practice, no, I don't trust that DE's nerfs are with the intentions of encouraging teamwork in multiplayer missions. I think their nerfs are designed to encourage people to go out and farm and use different equipment so their spreadsheets are showing a wider variety of gear being used... for no actual "good" reason for that diversity. The "game" is not stolen from these people who are complaining and calling for nerfs, while trying to take the moral high ground of wanting the best for everyone, when it's clearly not "best" for everyone... just themselves... for their own reasons that they personally find fun... so they should form groups with likeminded individuals to keep having fun in their way... while PUGs continue as they always have, with people accomplishing the mission objectives... whether a single person was able to rush ahead and do it or not (most people I know - I generally don't ask this of them - are happy just getting those end of mission rewards - they're not annoyed that they didn't get more kills or anything... I've never heard this complaint from anyone I know, and I only find this sentiment in threads like this.) I'm sure I have more to say on this... but have to head to work.

Warframe is NOT designed for you to be changing your build to "level down" to sync with the level of the content. The very fact that relics are required to be cracked from all 4 eras, including Lith, super low level missions, which are relevant content to end game players who are farming the things they can only get from these relics... shows that you bring whatever gear you want to every mission... and those missions span the entire range of the enemy levels on the star chart (and beyond, now). While people CAN go to Steel Path fissures, if they WANT that level of increased challenge, and the rewards unique to Steel Path (Steel Essence, Acolyte mods, etc), that is not the expectation, or base line, of all players to ONLY play in the missions that they are geared for. We only have 3 build slots per Warframe. These builds are generally not built to be scaled to 3 levels of content, but around different ways to equally min-max different abilities, but all end-game viable (or at least as high as you can currently push your frame to succeed.) It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect people to change their builds so that they are WEAKER than they can be, just so other players "have something to do"... they are built to succeed at mission objectives. It REALLY doesn't matter what each individual contributes, as long as the mission is successful. (I've never once been mad at "leechers" and find that entire complaint unreasonable, because people can generally solo these missions anyway... HOWEVER, if they're just sitting at the starting location, and don't even run to extraction, forcing the timer to run out... they're truly leeching dead weight, unless a real life thing happened that forced them to leave and take care of it (as rare as that really happens)... and while this is neither here nor there... it does have tangential impact on the topic at hand.) Anyway... yeah... I can't find any reasonable way to support your desire to have people "gear for the content" so other players "have something to do"... it just doesn't make sense in the context of Warframe.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, the times I enter PUGs, are for relic cracking (so any relic cracking mission, which varies from exterminate to defense style missions), and Interception and Disruption missions... And this is in fact my universal experience of playing in all PUG content in Warframe. I don't boot up an exterminate on earth, for no good reason, and enter that in a PUG, with my endgame gear... but I'd enter that same mission, if it's a relic cracking mission, without a second thought. It's far less likely that I'll be killing a significant portion of the enemies in such a mission, IF there is a really good nuke frame on the team, but really, I don't care if I kill the enemies or not, as long as the mission objective is completed, in such scenarios (and all my PUG scenarios.)

Because I see other player icons ahead of me on the map, on the progression toward the next objective or exit. Or I'm sitting on top of the defense location, and players are running around the map killing enemies, while I kill the ones that get by them. Plenty of reasons.

Maybe it's the content I choose, maybe it's the random people I've been put with for the past 7 years playing the game, but I have only RARELY had nothing to do in a mission unless I'm loading in late, and the objective is already complete. This situation you find yourself in... is perplexing to me, because I've never really seen it practically happen, even with this supposed prevalence of nuke builds out there... I ALWAYS seem to find enemies to kill, or some other way to contribute to the mission success (even if that's not killing.)

It is my understanding that you want challenge from the content. You want it to require other players to achieve the mission objectives. You want teamwork to be required. You want everyone on the team to be contributing equally to killing enemies (if that is the mission objective)... That's ... not Warframe, at least not in PUG content, nor should it be. Warframe is a grindy looter shooter. People NEED to go as fast as possible to gather the components they need, as fast as possible, because the game is balanced around either spending your time or money on these things. People who choose to GRIND for their stuff, are SPENDING THEIR TIME, which in some cases is more valuable than money... and arguably always is more valuable. Forcing slower gameplay, less rewards, less loot, is disrespecting that spending of their time. SERIOUSLY. Your fun does not supercede that, from my perspective, anyway.

Personally, the only reasons I have to go PUG, are for relic cracking missions (because 4 relics open at one time, instead of 1, and there is no solo option to bring and crack 4 relics at the same time, so it's just less efficient to do that solo), and missions, where the objective is more annoying to do solo, than with a group, such as interception and disruption (at least for me.) I never go into multiplayer to "work with the group" against a "hard challenge" that NEEDS everyone working together to accomplish the objective. I go to other games for that sort of thing (if ever.) I used to play Destiny raids, and while that required exactly this, they were also horribly boring, annoying, punishing, and vitriol-creating experiences where repeated failures would start to create bad blood between members, along with blame throwing, and overall, a bad experience. Warframe is my comfort game... quickly and easily zipping through missions as a one man army, slashing through hordes of enemies that don't stand a chance... THAT IS FUN for me. (whether I'm actually killing the enemies or not, if the mission is accomplished, I had fun.)

That really depends... if they could build entirely offensively, using no mods for shields or survival, no need for Primed Flow, no need for Adrenaline, and instead go full on offensive, they might... that's what my build lets my roommate do with the other frames, allowing them to skyrocket their other stats. However, that takes preparation and knowledge of how to work together, to stay within affinity range, and headset communication so we share the same goals minute to minute.

Actually, I have a Styanax build designed to provide support for my team, entirely, with whatever offensive bonuses that build provides being ancilliary to the main goal. He's an overshield and energy battery extraordinaire. I primarily bring that along to compliment my roommate's low HP / low shield / energy hungry offensive builds, and together, we form a very powerful single unit. I'd never run that alone in a PUG group, because it relies on having that other core part of the team, that I can't expect the other players to fill in the same way as my roommate.

When you play multiplayer, you don't gain control of the rest of the group. The game mode's objectives gain control of the group. Warframe is co-op, in multiplayer, as opposed to PVP multiplayer. You're all working toward the same objective, not against each other. Under these circumstances, whether or not you get to kill something doesn't really matter if the objective was to kill that something. The only problem here, is you demanding to be the one that killed that something, instead of other players in the multiplayer mission. If you want to play a certain way, play solo, or build a team that shares your particular goals. Those are your only options here. Those are my only options here. As I said previously, I don't insist on Voca hunting in an exterminate bounty in the labs... that's not the objective of the mission, that's not the objective of the other players who grouped up randomly... that would be selfish and inconsiderate to the other players.

While I wouldn't be against this suggestion, I likely wouldn't alter my play style to accommodate it either. Consistency is key for my enjoyment of the game. I like my favorite frame. I like my favorite weapon. I highly dislike Duviri, forcing me to use a very small selection of random options... so I don't play Duviri, for instance. I rarely run Arbitrations, and when I do, I don't even really look at the bonuses. I never even unlocked the Helminth invigoration module, because it won't change which warframes I use, and the frames I do use, don't really need invigorations to make me want to play them... they're tools for jobs. That's one player's perspective on this, at least.

I understand that "Pay for Convenience" (and cosmetics) are the real money makers for Warframe. I'm fairly sure Forma is their biggest seller (no joke.) (and that's why they take so long to build, and why they took their sweet time bringing back Plague Star.) However, for new players, the progression system without crafting timers is not well laid out, but it exists. What I'm talking about, is a selection of weapons available in the Arsenal (and market, I guess), that you can outright buy for credits (no plat needed), to spend your time ranking up. While they're busy ranking up those weapons and farming up materials, they can start a great many blueprints building in the foundry... these blueprints can also be bought in the Arsenal (and market, I guess), and yet this feature is also quite well hidden. Some of these have as little as 12hr build times, while others are 24. Without an experienced mentor helping new players along, they'd probably not know anything about these things... only really getting the blueprints from the few enemies that drop them (gorgon), and rewards from clearing the planet connection thingies... or thinking they have to buy things with plat (I didn't have a mentor, and didn't know about the blueprint buying from the arsenal until a long while in, after seeing it in a youtube video, during research.) I think it would help if players were guided along the intended gameplay loop of acquiring materials and building them in the foundry, a bit more directly, showing that ranking them up fully grants them mastery that increases their mastery rank, that increases the base energy that gear has, and allows them to use a wider variety of weapons (not always more powerful necessarily.) The path to gaining Rhino should be the first step in explaining how bosses drop warframe blueprints, and for completion of the quest of obtaining all his parts, they should get a Warframe slot reward so they can actually build him... or save it and use it for something they've researched and planned for.

I haven't checked all my amps lately, but ALL AMPS should be stagger-free.

I saw a random Play Station Plus freebie platinum/cosmetic pack, and grabbed it, not knowing what it was. (I had seen advertisements for Warframe in the past, and it always looked like one of those PVP type games, so I had no interest in it.) Then I decided to check out some gameplay on youtube. I had recently quit Destiny2, as the only reason I played it was because my roommate did, but it was a stinker... (one of the quotes from a video I saw, was, "Warframe is like Destiny, but with your super on the whole time.") and I hate shooters in general... the gameplay, on the other hand, showed plenty of melee combat... and the primary weapon that I saw, that drew me to the game was the Dual Bladed Polearm. You see... I'm writing a book series and coding my own games, and in them, the main characters use Dual Bladed Polearms... it's my favorite weapon type of all time; so I kinda had to play Warframe. So began my time in Warframe. (apparently, this was shortly after the release of the Plains of Eidolon, though that had nothing to do with why I started playing.)

That sounds like advancing through a game's power progression path... gaining power doing one activity to become strong enough to engage in the next tier. You are talking about going directly from where you left off, to plunging head first into the current endgame content, without going through any of the progression in between. OF COURSE you're going to be struggling to some extent, depending on how big that gap is, and how far from the top you were when you took the break. Just for your information, I still use a Zaw, with barely any updated mods... and my Orthos Prime, that I've had for 6 years, only updated with prime mods as they've become available - none of which is locked behind anything special or difficult to solo. I decided to turn on my PS4 and look at my current, endgame viable builds, just so you have an idea. Polearm Plague Kripath Zaw (Bleeding Willow stance mod, Exodia Force) Condition Overload, Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Primed Fever Strike Sacrificial Steel, Fury, Vicious Frost, Volcanic Edge That's a VERY not min-maxed weapon there... I know most people say to not mix PPP with CO, but I like the consistency and power ceiling. NONE of those mods require the new content, and it kills everything perfectly fine in the Netracell content, Archon Hunts, etc. I use the Cedo as my "status primer" primary weapon with: Critical Deceleration (Blunderbuss would be fine), Tactical Pump, Primed Point Blank, Charged Shell Incendiary Coat, Vigilante Armaments, Primed Ravage, Galvanized Hell (Hell's Chamber would be just fine) I use the Catchmoon kitgun secondary, with Pax Charge for infinite ammo, Cascadia Empowered (only one copy): Hornet Strike, Jolt, Lethal Torrent, Barrel Diffusion Magnum Force, Auger Pact, Primed Heated Charge, Creeping Bullseye Nothing there necessarily requires endgame involvement... and it works against everything I've needed to take it up against. It's not META, it's not an AOE nuke build, but it works. I also use Inaros primarily, so there's no crazy interactions going on that skyrockets my weaponry to absurd levels. As I said above, the only reasons I can see for feeling the "need" to go public matchmaking, are for missions with objectives that are easier to complete in groups, such as Interception (you can't be in 4 places at once, and chasing the captured points is just not fun to me), or to accomplish clearing star chart nodes before you have the proper mods to have the power to kill the bosses easily yourself. This is all easily attainable prior to Steel Path, prior to the New War, prior to Duviri, prior to Whispers in the Walls...

Um... this isn't remotely true. You can make it through the entirety of the star chart without things in Steel Path, or anything released after Steel Path. There are builds out there that don't require anything from current releases that were already being complained about as "overpowered" back then, and we have only gotten stronger since, with more options. The ONLY times I've felt forced into public play, is certain mission types, such as Interception and Disruption, and as I mentioned above, assassination missions, before I had proper mods. (I will caveat this statement with clearing a disruption node can be done solo, as long as you defend 1 location, and fail the other 3, so even that isn't required to go public to clear.) This seems like an uninformed, or mis-informed conclusion that you've reached, perhaps based on current day youtube video guides on best builds, and they list all sorts of mods that you don't yet have access to, but have lesser equivalents that are completely passable (such as Galvanized Mods, you really don't need them.) Perhaps you need different frames suited for different jobs. (Frost, Limbo, Wisp, Oberon, etc, for defense, for instance.) Oh, please understand, I hate grouping in ALL GAMES. It has absolutely nothing to do with Warframe in particular.

I played most of my first year solo, except missions like Interception and assassination missions against bosses that my guns couldn't scratch. When I first met Tyl Regor, he couldn't kill me, and I couldn't scratch him... it was a stalemate for 30 minutes, until I aborted, went public, and by the time I had put up my snow globe (which I was using to slow him down in my solo runs), he was already dead, and there was a fantastic green extraction marker that I ran toward. My fun came from my solo play. My progress with public groups was entirely focused on success in the mission, and I couldn't care less how that happened.

This was exactly my experience. I loved seeing how powerful I could eventually become, and now I'm that powerful, and it is fun.