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Posts posted by JuicyPop

  1. 8 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

    You really think that makes any kind of point in your favor? That's asinine. I have 3 copies of Adaptation, and I could conceivable have 1 or 2 more for further flexibility if I want. You are either a bad troll or terribly stupid, but in either case, it's obvious you don't have an argument to make that can stand up to basic facts.

    You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's 1, 4, 8 or 100; if there is a fixed number that you can conceivably use then there is an inherent point of exhaustion in the market. Your premise only really follows if we're talking about one-time use consumables. 

    • Like 1
  2. 2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    Actually, it was just because he was trying to imply that I was somehow new or don't know how the game works. Truth is, I have PC and PS4 accounts, both in the mid 20's MR, and I've seen the same stupid arguments he's been making across several other games with nearly identical trade systems. You took the wrong meaning from my post, so no--it's not generalizable in the way you think it.

    And you misunderstood the context of his second paragraph. It was meant to say that these aspects of the economy should be known by practically any player that's been at it for a few days even if they don't actively acknowledge it. 

    "I should only need one copy of this frame; therefore it would figure that supply within the economy should swell." It would only be later when that player learns of Baro that they would understand how that is mitigated. 

  3. 6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    I was referring to that troll right above me. It wasn't directed at you. I just happen to think you're wrong because you make the same points I've debunked for years and don't have the motivation to keep repeating to the people who can't/won't understand them.

    It doesn't even matter that you were directing it at another player since the principle you were trying to establish would be generalizable. You tried to use playtime and choice of platform as a measure of the credence of an argument so therefore you must necessarily consider those aspects for everyone. 

  4. 3 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    "Welcome to Warframe" from a console peasant when I've been playing this game for 6 1/2 years... This is why I don't take you seriously. Also, not only are you entirely wrong about what the model is, you're doubly wrong about its impact on the economy.

    If you're going to argue playtime, then my opinion is at least non-inferior to yours. 

    Try again. 

  5. 7 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

    Every single MMO (which warframe most is one, and no not it is not somehow "unique" by any means) has a market place. And yes, it is easy to claim people are dumb when they try to re-create the wheel, but make it rectangular. 

    You claim that I dunno basic of economics? Cool. Show me one economic system (real life or video game) where entry barriers for trade benefited the game's economy. And please no silly examples like Diablo 3 vanilla where the problem was the devs manipulating the loot drops. 


    So much of the game depends upon players exploiting unique economic opportunities to create content naturally within the sandbox.

    For instance, if there was a universal AH that just deposited items at your location, then there would be no need for shipping and there would be fewer profitable reasons for pirating in low-sec, mass suiciding with alpha ships in high-sec and the like.  

    The simple fact that people have to go out of their way to get items from one point of the universe to another is, by definition, a barrier to entry for whatever it is that you want to accomplish with said items. It takes time, planning and even several months of training characters just to accomplish it on your own in a reasonably safe manner. 


  6. 6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

    I haven't seen one anti-AH commenter who can display even a shred of this, so I find this absolutely funny on every level. But go ahead... dig yourself deeper.

    You do know that you need to argue in favor of an AH system right? It's not the assumed standard. 

  7. 14 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

    You keep using overly simplistic ideas for your "argument." You do so in one-dimensional ways. What you don't understand is the issue itself and why AH style markets work better than the current one. Hell, you don't even seem to understand how or why they work at all.

    I’m still not seeing your input.

    Either contribute meaningfully or walk away.

  8. 1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

    I gave you a glimpse of it and you basically just said "no u" in longer format without any comprehension or thought to what that system would look like. You're simply not worth the energy and I don't believe you intellectually sophisticated enough to grasp it even if I did. You have no argument of any kind, so there's no need for me to have a counter argument to it. The base argument I--and many here--have been making has yet to meet with any real counter either, so the way I see is simply: Us 1 - You 0.

    Your move.

    I literally just gave you two posts with my thoughts on the previous page and your response was simply, “You don’t understand.” What don’t I understand? Enlighten me.

  9. 1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

    As I said, you clearly don't understand the issue. At all. It honestly feels like explaining Biology to a toddler. There just aren't terms simple enough for them to understand.

    Well maybe you should try anyways instead of repeatedly saying, “You don’t understand the issue.” A smart person like you should know that it’s not a compelling argument in the slightest. If you understand the dynamic that well, then you should be able to explain it both succinctly and in great detail.

    I’ve yet to see a post from you that has an actual detail of your thoughts.

  10. 12 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

    One thing to consider for this discussion:

    For those who won't interact with the 3rd party websites or trade chat, nothing they have has any plat value whatsoever. Plat is a thing purchased with real money, or booster packs, or is given away by the generous (and warframe streams). Slots are the most restrictive resource a person has, and they must constantly make and delete stuff that they make and level, painstakingly (sometimes) deciding between keeping a beloved frame or weapon, or getting access to something new that they may not like at all.

    For a trader (or those who buy plat), everything has a plat value, and slots are nothing, and they can keep everything they make, and they can invest forma and reactors and catalysts into everything, and essentially enjoy the game.

    If an in-game AH/Marketplace is introduced that lets current non-traders list a limited number of items at buy-out prices while they go to work or something, and finally get access to a little plat... suddenly, they can enjoy the game. Suddenly, everything they have has a plat value. (even 1 plat would result in an infinite increase in value from 0)

    For those who currently thrive in a mess of mis-information or lack of knowledge and a haggling dream, they can buy low, sell high, make a killing, and become rich. If their items suddenly plummet in value, they'll still hold some value, and it won't be an infinite drop.

    For a majority of people, this results in a better time, even if it takes more trades to eventually save up for the rarer items because each transaction results in gaining less plat than before.

    That's the big picture, from my point of view.

    I disagree with that being healthier for the game, but I can see the logic.

  11. 9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    That barrier to entry does not help people to afford more. AH style markets have a way of making common things worth a steady stream of small income while allowing rarer things to generate bursts of larger income. Beyond that, the accessibility it offers makes it so that everyone can participate and enjoy it. The exclusionary nature of that "barrier to entry" is a negative impact on the market overall.

    What I would predict in the case of Warframe specifically is that overall plat expenditure would climb dramatically at first because the initial implementation would cause a temporary "crash" in prices due to said accessibility (and people buying up tons of slots, reactors, adapters, etc), but that those prices would soon climb out of that somewhat and stabilize at a more moderate value since there would be less plat in the market overall, thus leading to further purchases of plat from DE directly.

    In the end we would just see an in-game version of warframe.market that makes sense and is intuitive. I think we'd see higher player retention as well since people get to play with more of what the game offers rather than feeling like they hit a wall due to plat depletion/stagnation.

    How on earth does it not? Are you trying to say that DE doesn’t even need to bother because WF.market is already a perfect solution? If you say no, then there is a barrier to entry which affects supply and therefore affects prices and creates uncertainty which translates into larger margins for those few who do interact with the system.

    If it doesn’t do this then there shouldn’t be a reason to want to switch.

  12. I’ll separate this in a new post;

    One-to-one trading essentially allows for there to be a F2P “middle class” in the WF community for those who have the time and are savvy enough to play the market. There isn’t much of a startup investment required because the uncertainty and the barrier to entry allows for high margins through sheer obfuscation of information. If you cut that out you’ve essentially just killed off the only avenue for F2P players to potentially buy fancy things without grinding themselves to death just so the people at the “poverty line” can have a few more potatoes.

    In addition, you’ve put in place an AH that can only be meaningfully manipulated with huge quantities of capital from the “upper class” through mass buyouts and re-listings.

    An AH appeals to casuals and ultra-new players at the expense of a sizable amount of the core playerbase.

  13. 26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    Your "simple math" doesn't encompass the entirety of the issue. That's why it doesn't warrant an answer. It's irrelevant.

    Well that’s because the issue is actually rather complex and I doubt that anyone could come up with an outline of exactly how the markets would shake up outside of something borne of sheer survivor bias.

    I’m asking you that question because I think people don’t actively recognize the importance of the market’s barrier to entry in keeping the game truly F2P for those who are dedicated enough to dive into it. I think if we were to switch to an AH model we’d see more players being able to afford lots of basic items like slots, reactors, etc. but fewer of the pure-F2P crowd able to acquire multiple pieces of high-end, rare items like Rivens and old vaulted Primes. I think this could result in a loss of appeal from that crowd, due to a perceived increasing gap in power, especially if these items actually start to matter in clearing core content.

    You have to understand that power fantasy and potential parity with paying players are big draws in these payment models. I think an AH system would actually start to create a real rift between those that buy lots of plat versus those that buy none at all with the only real benefit being to the casual and new players who simply care about cheap but necessary items.

    If you disagree then answer the question and counter with your own opinion.

  14. 11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    Again with hypotheticals without any real support. It's clear you don't understand the issue. You don't understand how the AH style of market works. You don't even understand that your questions didn't warrant answering.

    I'm posing a hypothetical question so that I can gauge your understanding and then we can move on from there; I need to know that people can at least understand the math even if it is a hypothetical. If you cannot, then we will be unable to converse meaningfully. 

    Either answer the question or cede the point. 

  15. 10 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

    -> Creates an example that is completely unrelated to reality. 

    -> "cOuNtErInG wItH nOtHiNg At AlL".

    I'm still waiting for you to actually answer any of the myriad of questions that I've posed in this thread.

    I'll do the two seconds of work for you; scale it down to 30/hr (100/day) and 10/hr (50/day). Is that person better off under an AH system now that their effective buying power has been cut by a third? 

  16. 2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

    Going to make up hypotheticals that are unrealistic for the vast majority of players and use that as an argument?

    Brush up on your critical reading skills a bit before countering with nothing at all. 

    l can’t say I’m surprised that you fell for the trap. You focused on the fake numbers and not the point which means that you don’t even understand the topic enough to not get drawn in by something that’s obviously outrageous.



  17. 1 hour ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

    There's nothing to debate here. Your claim is generic, "it will be affected". lol congratulations, you brought nothing to the table. 



    1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

    You don't need a degree to understand that if the market prices dropped overall that you could buy more with the plat you have earned so far or choose to buy from DE directly. It's really straight-forward. It would also mean it's easier to sell things, so you would probably gain more plat overall through a higher volume of smaller transactions.

    Let's say that I can make 300 plat/hr through a composition of mechanisms and that on average I spend about 1000 plat per day in acquiring items to trade at a later date. Let's say that the introduction of an AH depresses the market to the point where I can only make about 100 plat/hr despite an equivalent daily set of acquisitions costing around 500 plat. 

    Am I doing better than I was before? 

    Brush up on your critical reading skills a bit before countering with nothing at all. 

  18. 4 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

    No you wouldn't. I already explained why, quit defending that failed system, you are already out of arguments.

    Address the first part of my post then. If you believe that both would see an equivalent decline, then show me up with the breadth of your knowledge. I mean, if you have an econ degree and have this particular shift modeled out, I'm more than willing to change my view. 

  19. On 2019-09-13 at 9:38 PM, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

    The problem with your logic is a philosophical one:

    -> Everyone is a consumer, that's how the game works. You're forced to consume, or else you'll get stuck trying to brute-force your way through low drop rates and lots of RNG, etc. 

    -> Not everyone is a seller. You don't need to sell things (you can just buy platinum, what endorses even more what I said before). 

    So in the end, the majority (who will be benefited) is not you as a seller, is you as a consumer. Your logic is also stupid in the sense that, if prices go down...why would you be harmed by it?  

    -> Prices go down 

    -> You can buy more with the plat you have. 

    -> ????? 

    -> absolute win

    Plat prices may go down, but plat acquisition mechanisms would be affected in a non-linear fashion. Any individual in my position would see a significant loss in market/buying power. 

  20. 15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    People make all kinds of dumb decisions. Yours is akin to poor people voting for tax increases under the false notion that they will get more government benefits from it... but in reality it just means you pay more for basically nothing. That's essentially how this trade system is--arbitrarily made $#!% for bad reasons and under false/backward logic due to irrational fear of AH.

    Except in this case the people that actively benefit from the current system are rightly opposing changes to it. There is no situation with an AH wherein I would make more :platinum:/hr outside of playing the market full-time. 

    edit: If you remove the barriers to entry into a market, you necessarily increase competition/volume. Volume exceeding demand necessarily places a negative pressure on prices. 

  21. 47 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

    I'm not sure why people would assume this, let alone keep repeating it as if it's fact. 

    Why do you think you would lose those players? Riven investment wouldn't go anywhere. Arcanes would still be expensive. Vaulted Primes would still have value. There are plenty of other things too, but the point is that the people who would invest in the market still could/would. Facilitating a better trade system wouldn't push them away, but probably bring more in.

    I don't assume, I just look to gacha games as a model. The players that do get hooked in by the F2P fancy are enticed to spend and do so inordinately even if it's nowhere near the whale level; it's only the cursory players that rarely check in that can actually stay completely F2P. 


  22. On 2019-09-11 at 8:40 PM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

    Ironically people keep saying that a vending system will drive prices down, demand down, and reduce platinum sales when in reality it will do the total opposite. 

    Seriously defend your position that de wants people to have to talk to each other. Do not argue it would drive down prices or reduce plat sales becuase that fails logic checks and lacks basic economic model sense. 

    There is a reason vending machines exist, provably people will pay more just to have easy access, instant gratification, and not have to deal with people, it also asks players to step out of a game to exchange a meaningfully irrelevant amount of plat on one mod instead of doing something more important or enjoyable. 

    A lot of businesses that have high passer by counts are trying to eliminate vending machines in favor of a store. Because they are making people with more important jobs act as cashiers, these businesses are now suffering economic losses becuase the"cashier" missed a call worth 30 thousand dollars or more annually because they were taking two dollars in cash from a passer by they will never ever see again. Forced human interaction is not a positive business model when it is neither needed nor wanted. 

    Range and visibility naturally place a negative pressure on price. Have you never played EVE? The prices in Jita 4-4 are the cheapest by far because it has the largest market of potential buyers. 

    It would reduce plat sales because they people that actually buy significant quantities of plat, outside of prime packages, are those that already invest heavily into the trading market. If you lose those players, you lose the sales. 

  23. It's simply that the F2P fantasy would break down as prices would be significantly depressed. It would enable more players to make a small of platinum but almost totally gut the potential for larger gains among savvy players.

    In a twist of logic, it's those players that also happen to spend the most on the game and DE would see a net loss in income as they gradually drop off. 

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