KitMeHarder

Both, but new frames if I had to choose. New frames will always be a new way to play. Most reworks are just the same frame, but with the edges smoothed. New frames can only be additions to the tools I have access to, unlike the reductions reworks can be. I have seen players constantly beg for reworks on frames that are some of the best in the game, just because they don't know how they're played. And while for some of them a QoL update would be nice, it's not worth the risk of DE completely changing/killing the reason I used the frame in the first place. Most frames that need reworks like Nyx, are unlikely to change into a frame I'd even play anyway. Etc...

That's not what I really meant, but we'll leave it at that. Also, you need to turn down those VFX, I'm personally at 100. IMO Warframe is much more fun without screen shake, color correction, GPU particles, etc... ruining the experience more than they enhance it. I mean that's kinda what you have to do in this genre if you don't want to just nerf things left and right. It's an established practice in games like WF to have both the players and enemies alike ignore certain preexisting mechanics to make them feel more powerful. I largely only play this genre and it's been in every game, whether that be Borderlands, Genshin, WF, Battleborn (different genre but same practice), etc... Eidolons/PT being immune to the shield reduction aura Eidolons being immune to frame damage Bosses having CC immunity/reduction Deimos' viral immunity Crewships mandating you board them/Tunguska cannon them to kill them Orphix fields preventing frame usage Etc... And IMO so long as it's mostly just new content that that has it, and it doesn't creep too much into the game as a whole, I'm fine with it. For example, they were pre-my time so IDK if I'd have the same opinion, but I personally like stuff like Nullifiers if it means no nerfs instead. Harder game>>>>>>>Nerfs

My original post talked about abilities, but even with weapons I don't personally see how someone could feel that way. The Cedo feels nothing like the Glaive, which feels nothing like the Dual Toxocyst, which feels nothing like the Lex incarnon, which feels nothing like the Quassus, etc... And at the end of the day that's what the majority of WF ask you to do, is kill. Whether that's ESO, Granum Void, Disruption, Void Cascade, Alchemy, Exterminate, Assassination, Skirmish, Defense, etc... And all of these modes can be done without CC, but they can't be done without killing. And while there are modes that can be done without killing (Mobile Defense), they can also be done with killing. Not really, it's just simply a bad example in my opinion. Like I'll ask you this, what difference is there killing and enemy with Impact over Blast (very little beside the CC types ironically)? But it feels like a completely difference game when I'm clapping enemies to cinders as Gauss, compared to when I'm blending them into a pile of limbs as Valkyr. I mean it's been 6 years so far and besides my "honeymoon period" as a new player (and select massive nerfs), my time in WF has gotten more fun each year as they pass. Where as IDK how long you've been playing, but your forum account isn't even 2 years old. I'd say it's a more fair assessment to say you might change (or not, like I said I agree with you that enemy overguard is too heavy handed). As such, so long as you don't want to nerf my fun, I'm 100% down for WF retaining the parts you find fun. Like you said, "agree to disagree".

The first example isn't really fair, damage types in WF are largely just a matter of countering what enemies are weak to, there's not much past that. A more fair example is this: 10 DPS abilties to pick from, but only one CC type to pair with them (say sleep or pull) Peacemakers Spores Grasp of Lohk Whip Claw Thermal Sunder Prism Final Stand Desert Wind Hysteria Rotorswell Now you have one DPS ability (we'll go with Peacemakers), but 10 CC options to pair with it Pull, sleep, lift, slow, stun, charm, etc... So I don't know about you, but I'd rather play number one any day compared to two. The first gives me countless ways to kill enemies (the main schtick of WF), with each giving their own unique approach. But now with the second, I may be able to do a bunch of different CCs, but 80% of them might as well be the same in your average day of WF, and after you've CC'd them you can only kill them with Peacemakers and nothing else. -------------------- Now if the element system is like Genshin's, then I can even 100% counter your original claim and say I'd take 10 different damage types and 1 CC over the alternative.

You couldn't have really made a more biased statement if you tried. "Whether or not you stun, blind, lift, push or pull someone, it's just controlling enemy movement." And to put it out there, survivability and CC are much more "unidimensional" than DPS is (by orders of magnitude) for myself. With the only real difference in CC being whether it allows me to kill quicker (Molecular Prime or any pull) or whether it's the type where I could just stare at the enemies as the mission auto-completes. But back to the topic, I do think DE was too heavy handed with overguard's mechanics. They should either... Make non-helminth 4th abilities exempt from the CC immunity Have each time CC is applied to overguard remove a percentage of it (on a brief cooldown) Etc...

Rivens should be "reworked" to have very little of their original intent. IMO the thought process behind rivens should be that they are the one RNG time-sink meant for vets, giving them an evergreen grind that isn't just plat farming. All rivens should have a minimum disposition of 1x, with weaker weapons having up to 1.55x in order to give them a slight bump (and to maintain what we already have). I don't necessarily need something like stat locking, as like I said, rivens should just be the singular RNG evergreen grind in the game. But if DE is interested in adding it, I definitely wouldn't say no. The details can be left to them, but even the ability to lock a single stat (with downside of even making the riven untradable while locked) would be very nice.

By DE's own logic the buff should be 120%, or at the very least 100%. And if the reason they won't do it is because Eclipse can also switch to be a DR ability (though the vast majority of players will only use one buff or the other on a build, not both), then I propose that the ability be split in half like Equinox's Rest & Rage. With which buff the subsume gives being based off of the frame's energy color (or some other mechanic).

IIRC that was a rework Scott headed, not Pablo. But if you have a source, I'd be happy to look at it. I also believe it was Saryn's rework that put Pablo's name on the map IIRC. But it was really Nezha's that got the community fawning over him. (I will say I started in 2018, and both of these reworks happened in 2018. (Vauban was late 2019.)) I mean... they scale infinitely. His 2, his 3, and his 1's augment all scale with enemy level or their total health.

I never said meta. You said meta. Kit - "You're not going to convince me that Caliban is good by demonizing frames that actually have good designs. "Caliban is good, it's just other frames are too good." Everything is relative." Kit - "We can keep going down the looong list, but why is a frame like Gauss "not designed well"?" Caliban sucks, and it's not just because of whatever frames you think are "meta". There are countless "non-meta" frames that you can compare Caliban to that would still make him suck on a relative scale. You think a 12-33.6m armor strip that goes through walls, has a 360° AoE, doesn't need any strength to 100% strip, and has other extremely powerful mechanics is "inefficient"? (You don't even need to be battery drain immune to use it.) Yet you're gonna try and tell me Caliban's 10-28m strip that does basically nothing else is "good"? Just to put it out there, Gauss is stronger than Dante as an individual frame. Rev also isn't that strong, he's largely just easily immortal. And his use cases have been indirectly nerfed as of late. One of your points in an exilus mod any frame can equip? (Gauss is also innately immune as well). And I could say armor is a "core balance mechanic", yet Caliban is allow to circumvent it? Doesn't that mean he doesn't "play fair" by your own definition? And you don't really know what you're talking about. RPGs like WF are always completely filled with both players and enemies alike ignoring "core mechanics" in order for both to feel powerful.

Balance is important to a degree, I'm not denying that. But I think you and I have very different understandings of this point, and your OP also makes me think that you don't have sufficient experience to make the claims you have. (Not trying to offend, but my first post already pointed out the issues I have.) How many frames that have been reworked are Pablo's original creation? Nothing is 100% concrete, but it has been inferred that Pablo made Protea, Garuda, rework Saryn, rework Nezha, etc... None of these frames/reworks have been reworked, nor is the community asking for one? This isn't something I religiously keep track of, so if you have an example and the source it's Pablo's creation, I'd appreciate it.

We can keep going down the looong list, but why is a frame like Gauss "not designed well"?

I agree. But instead of nerfs, I'd rather they just let us "vaporize" bosses. Other modern progression-based RPGs do just that, like Borderlands 3. And off the top of my head, events like Orphix Venom did it as well and they were a blast IMO. But that's considered "disruptive gameplay" for new players/the anti-power fantasy crowd. IMO the best way to have the best of both worlds is for this game to have two different public ques. One for "fast pace" play and one for "slow pace" play. That way the community can can choose for themselves what kind of experience they want, and new players won't be caught in the crossfire. (I'm being kinda vague because I intend to make a whole thread on this at some point, so if it's not that clear what I mean, feel free to ask.)

On a relative scale, he does suck. And he sucks even past that point as well. He is one of the two worst frames that have little going for them. You can make anything usable in this game, but things need to be worth using. There's a difference. You can make anything sound good by extrapolating it in this game. But some things are not good, especially on a relative scale. Passive - Not strong enough without adaptation and worthless with it. 1 - The worst ability in the game that you conveniently gave a free pass by it being a "easy helminth slot". (Guess what? Resonator is also a helminth slot despite being one of the best CC abilities in the game.) 2 - It's almost always a waste of time and energy to debuff a singular group of enemies in WF. The debuff is also small and has one of the worst CC types. 3 - 150 energy for what is often just worse than what Protea does for 25. Minor differences aside. 4 - FS has long since been a good armor strip. It used to be the one point Caliban kinda had, but I can list at least a half-a-dozen abilities better then it. It's high energy, low range, does nothing else beside defense strip, etc... You're not going to convince me that Caliban is good by demonizing frames that actually have good designs. "Caliban is good, it's just other frames are too good." Everything is relative. There is always going to be a last place. In the same way I could put Caliban in Darktide 40k and he'd be a God amongst men... But this is Warframe and he sucks in WF, doing nothing (noteworthy) better in part or wholistically than any other frame.

Thanks for the reply. Though this is only true for each specific example. When you look at the game as a whole, it's very varied. Trinity might be what you consider meta for entrati disruption But then Chroma is meta for Profit Taker And Protea is meta for something else Then Knell is meta here The Pyrana is meta there Etc... And even then in cases like Trin, she doesn't really even kill faster than countless other options unless you're doing a true endurance run. Modern damage attenuation technically does what you're asking for. Everything is equally meta, because everything is more-or-less equally shafted. And while I could see some other points you could bring up against DA, it technically achieves what you want from this one. I think that's just because DE was too heavy-handed compared to stuff like Nullifiers (which I largely think are in a good spot). Would you still feel the same way if one of the purposed changes in my post was added? I never understood this point. My Latron incarnon and Vectis prime are built basically the same way, but they play nothing like one another. Mods are just base stats to buff what are already completely unique weapons.

You'd be wrong IMO. Quite Shy deleted her interview, but Pablo has gone on record saying that he values "power fantasy" more than forcing challenging content. And I agree, as like I said in my first post, PvE games are never challenging in the end (especially after 8 year), regardless of the genre. So I'd rather the game be fun and engaging, compared to a toxic cesspit of constant nerfs that never really achieve their goal. But why are (95% of) nerfs better, compared to the game getting harder? IMO stuff like armor strip "immune" necramechs are a fun problem to work around, as apposed to a straight up depressing nerf from the devs. Not to mention, that means my gear still preforms normally everywhere else in the game, so even better. Same thing with overguard. I'd rather something like Deep Archs have a modifier that gives all enemies overguard, compared to Dante's Tragedy getting LoS nerfed. Having to problem solve to account for the OG is fun, while LoS additions are not. (Though I agree OG shouldn't completely invalidate CC, whether that be my idea of having non-helminth 4th abilities be exempt, the common community idea of every time a CC is applied a percent of overguard is removed, etc....)

Overguard does have a cap, it's just a moddable cap. Overshields have a cap because unlike overguard (which is only generated via abilities in the base game), overshields can be generated via many different sources on almost every frame. Overshields are also affected by damage reduction unlike overguard. And it's also not like shields themselves have caps. Chroma or Hildryn can give you as much shield capacity as they can mod for. It does. A flat 0.5 seconds for all frames.

Sure Bud. I'm sure you probably don't think there's much of a difference, given our conversation thus far.

That's not the game, that's just you being a new player. Sorties were released in 2015, that's level 100 right there. The old void key system that relics replaced encouraged long endurance runs, as you could get more rewards from the same one key. There was even a joke alert/event where DE had players face level 9999 enemies. Etc... 9 times out of 10 they sucked on release, just like Caliban sucks despite being a 2021 (basically 2022) frame. Inaros' passive and Devour were just as worthless on release as they were when he was reworked. And Sandstorm was just as counterintuitive. Nezha used to be nothing more than a straight downgrade to Rhino. Hydroid was the same clucky poor scaling frame he always was, reliant on his loot augment to even be considered at all. And the moment Khora got her's, the community immediately dropped him, despite him having a better loot chance (that is just how clunky his tentacles were). Etc... I don't see how DE completely dumpstering (helminth) light Eclipse was "great"? It's effectively worthless now, having a -85% reduction in power compared to Mirage's version. To put that into perspective, it'd need to be buffed by +567% to match Mirage. All that change did was force more people to use Roar and Nourish. If you think this about release day Steel Path, then this is just you being an inexperienced player again (which is fine, progression-based RPGs are always the hardest when you're "leveling up"). But Steel Path was never something a player that knew what they were doing would have trouble with, there was just less variety when you played at that level compared to today. (And to put it out there, no PvE game you've played for 8 years will be challenging.) I also don't know how you expect us to be nerfed enough for Steel Path to be a "place where we test our mastery", yet you already brought up that we have to do Deep Archs with level 400 enemies now. How would we be expected to do those if base SP is supposed to be "hard" now?

Yeah, while getting plenty wrong and completely missing most of the points. You quoted my part about the Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding, only to completely ignore the mod, call the Chakkhurr a "terrible weapon choice", and then try to claim the gun is reliant on Hunter Munitions? The Chakkhurr is one of the best slash sources in the game. "First, why would you use a Kuva Chakkhurr with Divine Retribution? is such a terrible weapon choice. The only means it has to apply status effects (slash specifically) with enough consistency is through Hunter Munitions. Using this specific case to argue that Nezha's Augment has so many weaknesses is just... you are not fooling anyone... not me at least." You don't even care enough/have enough intellectual integrity to get the facts right. Divine Spears has a base 19m, not 20. Again, completely wrong. And no, I'm not going to tell someone with a mindset like yours which frames they are just so you can lambaste them in the future. I guess you're not quite there yet in your Warframe journey, because Archon Hunts, Netracells, SP Circuit, Deep Archs, etc... are full of them. And again with you missing the point and not reading the OP. It's not simply CC immune enemies, it's ANY random enemies DE didn't program a ragdoll animation for. You can Ensnare something like the Anatomizer, slow it with Molecular Prime, blind it with Radial Howl, charm it with Resonator, etc... but Divine Spears unrightfully does nothing because that enemy doesn't have a ragdoll animation. And there are plenty of enemies like this, literally every non-grunt enemy in the Murmur faction is immune to ragdolls. Yeah, you must be constantly dying to need 3 different sources of shield tanking, two of which are quite extreme. So much for your original claim about Nezha being a "great tank", you've seemed to have missed your own memo.

@crazywolfpusher If you're only going to half read the post, then you don't really need to bother responding. And the fact you hyper-fixated on my points with your own preconceived notions and completely missed what I was saying didn't help either. I'm happy to discuss if you want to reevaluate what you posted, but until then...

Non-SP balance really doesn't matter at this point, as 90%+ of all incentivized content for years has been in the SP. And without a fissure buff, massive team coordination, or some other massive outside source of ability strength, most Dantes will have around 45-60k overguard. Your 120k is a blatant strawman argument.

I appreciate the change in today's hotfix, and it's a good enough change that I'd ultimately be willing to settle with it. But I think a lot of the points in this thread weren't considered (or aren't known) and I really wish we'd get the release day range back. And if not, then at least I'd hope we can get some or all of these downsides/bugs fixed.

While this is something I could settle for, IMO I really think the augment shouldn't be nerfed this way, especially with all the drawbacks and bugs it already has. I implore you to read the below thread and take one more pass at the augment. The augment already has a soft Line-of-Sight restriction In large part, you already had to see an enemy in the first place for this augment to work. This isn't Volt's Discharge, where I just hit one button and things die. I have to actually see an enemy to spread status onto before I even cast my 4, I have to have highly invested weapons for it to reliably (even then) kill everything speared, and you had to do even more than that to actually get the most out of the augment. Overguarded enemies Overguarded enemies are already a counter to Divine Spears, as they can't be ragdolled by the ability. Compare that to other damage abilities, where most don't need to CC enemies first to do damage. In fact, all Ragdoll immune enemies counter the augment So not only is it that overguarded enemies counter Divine Spears, but any enemy without a Ragdoll animation counters DS. Enemies that are prone to countless CCs otherwise, now counter Divine Spears and thus the augment. Kuva Guardians (vulnerable state), the Anatomizer, the Hollow Vein, Nechramechs, Bursas, Amalgam Alkonoist, Deimos Saxum, the Severed Warden, Deimos Jugulus, Aurax Raknoid, Terra Jackel, etc... Overkilling an enemy does not spread status on more sources than you'd think If for example I head shot an enemy with my Kuva Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding would have produced a slash proc, but the enemy dies, no slash proc spreads. Same thing with something like the Glaive Prime, if I one-shot a butcher trying to kill a speared Heavy Gunner, the game just says "no slash proc for you". This is just another limiting factor the augment already has, and it reduces the amount of viable weapons you'd think would normally work. Elemental mods do not apply to spread DoTs and Faction damage only applies once instead of twice (including slash) You can see in the screenshot, the heat DoT from my Javlok is doing 1,194 damage to the initial target, but only 249 damage to every other speared enemy. That's less than 21% of the initial damage. Enemies are speared at different times, and not all at once Enemies are not speared at the same time. There is up to a 0.5-1 second delay between when the first enemy is speared and when all the rest in range are. This inconsistency makes it very hard to work with the other problems the ability/augment already has.

It's just a new way to play a frame. And technically we've had overguard for many years. Rhino, Frost, and Nezha (before his rework) all had it. It's called a (EHP) support ability, you again are just blinded by the shiny numbers. Numbers, which look big because they have no DR source backing them, unlike health and shields. Trinity can pump out full health and shield restores on one button, as well as 75% DR, and massive overshields with an augment. Gara, Nezha, Citrine, Mirage, etc... can give the entire team 90% DR Protea can give massive overshields, overshield regen, and she doubles shield gate duration. Octavia can give the entire team personal aggro-immunity Etc... By farming, do you just mean building Valkyr or Inaros or Ash or Revenant or Octavia or etc...? I don't see the disconnect. Dante's (non-fissure buff) overguard numbers fall inline with the rest of the game, this isn't the start of a new problem. At most you could say that unlike some other support tools, Triumph's range and Dante's own reliance on it makes it easier to support the team. But who wants to micromanage supports in PvE game? If anything, more support tools should be like Dante, Wisp, Qorvex, etc.... But ultimately if Triumph's range was nerfed I wouldn't really care, if that's something you want.

Your take fluctuated wildly throughout your entire post. We went from... Who needs overguard? We never die To, "I played Deep Arch and the entire squad was dying left and right" To then going to back to "5 hour SP endurance runs" being the only thing that can kill us. I also call BS on the acolyte coffee remark. Those things can shred even a 95%+ DR Baruuk if you let them. And the "numbers aren't proportional"...? But they are. While they are the upper max, Deep Archs are still the new threshold in terms of DE incentivized content. Any frame or gear needs to preform at a satisfactory level in them. People have already pointed out Dante needs 667% power strength to get 100k overguard. You've fallen victim to "scary big numbers" psychological trap. Take a Qorvex with no mods except normal Vitality and Adaptation... he's already at 58.8k EHP.