FaraTenno

I was not complaining about anything. There was no point in which I said the energy costs, or the setup required for the original payoff of Tragedy was unjust. You have read my intentions backwards. I was explaining that Tragedy was in fact not unrestricted as you claimed it was, and that it actually had several aspects keeping it from being abused as Peacemakers and Miasma are. I'm also not pretending that Peacemakers don't drain energy like turning on a faucet; I was entertaining the laughable thought of energy costs not being a viable method of balancing an ability by using an absurd example. The point you seemed to completely ignore, which my example was supposed to emphasize, was that Peacemaker would be objectively broken without the base 15 energy drain per second. But many people seem to think that being able to generate energy quickly means energy costs cannot be used for balance. By your own conditions in that case, Peacemaker would be broken because Energy consumption does not play a factor in balance. (Which, we all know energy costs are definitely supposed play a factor, regardless of how easy it is to slap on an energy generation method. Pretending they aren't doesn't mean it's true.) I would agree that Tragedy was broken if it was a single button cast nuke that didn't require two layers of setup, even if it had double it's current base energy investment. My point was not that these aspects were unfair, it was that all of those aspects were finely tuned to work together to make the abilities worth using while keeping them in check. Arbitrarily adding LoS to Tragedy as another restriction after it had been designed to work without it is throwing off the functionality that his kit had before. Yet you and the other defenders want to pretend we're just mad that we aren't getting numbers. We know the numbers are still there. It's just that sometimes, they don't appear when they should. That is frustrating when it is outside the player's control. My peacemaker reticle suggestion, again, was not serious. It was a dramatic example as it would be akin to a third restriction on Peacemaker, a restriction it does not need as it is already plenty restricted. It would be redundant, just as LoS is on Tragedy when Dark Verse had it to begin with.

You directly contradicted yourself in the same sentence. If Energy generation isn't an argument, why did you feel the need to correct me on how much energy Peacemaker drains? It doesn't matter since she can get it all back easily anyway. That's your argument for Dante too, right?

You, like many others, are missing the point behind the ability's original design. Let's ignore the fact that Tragedy was basically a wet fart on high level enemies if you didn't hit them with Dark Verse first, because that is apparently not a restriction. (Even though it very well is.) Tragedy's biggest "restriction" was the fact that you needed to cast Dark Verse twice, spending 25 energy each at base, to even be ALLOWED to cast Tragedy, an ability that costs 50 energy on it's own. This is not only a 100 energy requirement, which I will grant matches up to most frames ultimate costs, but the real limit here is the fact that the animation for Dark Verse has to cycle twice between each "nuke." (Which, at truly high levels, is not really a "nuke" compared to what we have on other frames.) This creates a required buffer time between each cast of Tragedy, which also has a decent amount of startup to it's own cast. There is no other "nuke" option in the game with conditions like this. The closest you'll find is a hard cooldown. I can tell you for a fact this was a restriction, because I had gone so far as to use a tauforged amber shard to boost my casting speed to get the setup of Light/Dark verse combos finished quicker. Now that Tragedy is less consistently hitting opponents that have been hit by the two casts of Dark Verse that you require to cast Tragedy the synergy is less effective. The problem gets even worse when you consider that you are now wasting energy when hitting enemies with Dark Verse that do not get touched by Tragedy if you happen to be in the wrong position. I don't care if DX11/max FoV players aren't having problems, the fact that some of us are is the real issue here. Now let's take Mesa's Peacemaker that you wanted to look at for example. What is their restriction? Ah, yes, the shrinking LoS reticle that everyone has been throwing in my face since Dante got nerfed. True, that is a restriction, but it is one that can easily be ignored by simply recasting the ability. ...How much Energy does Peacemakers drain on cast again? 25? Hm. That's funny. You're able to cast Peacemaker twice for the cost of two Dark Verses... which is before Tragedy even gets out once. Should we not nerf that, too? Imagine if Peacemaker's reticle didn't immediately reset when you deactivate the ability. Maybe it should gradually grow back off screen over a set period of time, so that the ability has a proper restriction. The answer is no, we don't do that, because being able to recast Peacemaker and immediately get the reticle back is what makes Mesa fun. But, I as a meager pub squad loki enjoyer (extreme example), can complain that she is not only a dominant playstyle by how frequently I see her, but that she is also disrupting my experience by killing everything before I can even look at it! So get rid of it! Grrrr! This is why I play the game solo. They've given us the tools to make us all one man room clearing monsters, but still want to pretend we aren't going to step on each other's feet when there's four of us trying to wipe out the same room. This game will never be balanced. Stop pretending it can be.

Honestly I've never had a problem with Dante's Overguard nerfs, I understand the mindset behind them and I see the problem behind being able to cast your entire squad under a massive shield that disrupts their build. I've never fought against that. Unironically though, yes. I feel Saryn's Molt could use this in the form of an augment, if Overguard is to become a standard mechanic going forward. I know this was probably intended to be a "gotcha" response, but my argument is for balance across the board. I feel having an augment for Saryn that increases her survivability when she casts Molt, giving it another layer of utility, would actually be a great idea. Would require sacrifice of a mod slot, and wouldn't disrupt the gameplay of her allies such as Dante's Light Verse and Triumph. Let's go another layer further and change Mesa's Shatter Shield from Damage Reduction to Overguard, if you truly want. Same general utility (survivability), different condition. The stance still stands that Dante is not what's presenting the problem with Overguard; it is the mechanics of Overguard itself.

Throw the exact same LoS requirement on Saryn's Spores and Miasma and we'll see if your opinion stays the same. Both abilities are intended to synergize with each other. This change would break that synergy by not allowing Miasma to hit infected enemies, AKA the whole point of the ability. Doesn't sound very fun to set up and use anymore, does it?

No Tragedy LoS removal, or even an explanation as to why they're so damned adamant on keeping it. After almost a full week of this outcry? Our voices are being ignored. I'm done wasting my time.

To be completely clear, I absolutely agree with both of these statements, nor am I defending the current release. I'm simply trying to dismiss the festering opinion of "DE did this on purpose to scam us." We've got no real explanation why LoS was implemented but people seem to think their silence and the timing means it was planned from the beginning. I don't think this is the case, but I do agree this situation has been handled incredibly poorly, and I'm not sure why when things like the Eclipse nerf were caught before they were detrimental to the player experience. Changes this major should have been saved for internal testing and discussion for the next major content update, which we already know is baking. I'm of the belief that hotfixes should really only be used for urgent fixes, which I will grant Overguard definitely needed at the time, but Dante was needlessly punished without any explanation. The matter is made even worse, as the hotfix that nerfed Dante also gave the "disrupted" frames ways to work around Overguard anyway. Dante's OG nerf was immediately redundant, and Tragedy wasn't tied to the real problem at all. Truly I see no real problem with the Overguard nerf, it still feels generous enough when you build him correctly and at least functions. I'm just pointing out the weird thought process that could have easily been avoided, as these comments have pointed out.

This line of thinking does not work when it comes to live service video games. The absolute last thing you would want to do is bait and switch your players like this, because you are then going to have players who do not trust what you release. This then leads to players choosing not to purchase content, or engage with it at all until they know it is balanced. Friendly reminder that video games, and their content updates, are supposed to be finished when they're released. Not mostly completed, and finished or fixed later on. All this has done is spark doubt in the players who did use platinum or the premium pack to gain access to Dante; it's a scab that we will be able to look back at every time DE releases a new Warframe, no matter how ridiculously powerful or appealing the frame is. You look at that scab, and you think: "Do I really want to risk being disappointed again?" There's those of us who don't want to risk it. That number only grows the more this happens. All of this to say that DE is fully aware that this is how it would go down. They are not morons. This was not an intentional move on their part. They did not plan to release Dante in a broken state, and then nerf him specifically for profit, that does not make sense. There would be no difference had they left him the way he was, if anything they would have gotten more profit from leaving him that way. This happened because DE isn't fully fueled by greed, and someone thought he needed to be tuned down for the long-term health of the game. This was someone's effort to genuinely balance the game, and it may have sounded like a good idea on paper, but it turns out to be absolutely horrendous in execution. That's all this whole situation is.

Choosing to only respond to one of the few responses in this thread that isn't about Dante is not helping your case. Just putting that out there.

I'm 100% expecting this. They're avoiding giving us a response because they don't have one that makes sense, so they were just hoping we accept the LoS after settling over the weekend. We didn't. We still want it gone. But they won't remove it. Instead, we will likely see a hotfix around Wednesday/Thursday which will attempt to address LoS again, which will also ignore the changes people want reverted from Nezha's brand new augment and the Arca Titron, we will continue to be outraged, and then we will be given a statement on Friday about how they'll be taking the weekend to review Dante and the frames people have been comparing him to. This will either result in an LoS removal on Dante, or a wave of DPS frames getting nerfed. Or, absolutely nothing could happen. This would not be the first time DE completely ignored the community's opinion. It's not like we aren't trying to make LoS work, or at least I am. I have since tried to modify my Dante build to account for bringing enemies together to avoid LoS bugs, and it is not worth it. I am not only sacrificing other essential parts of my build to get this functionality now, exposing more weaknesses on Dante while getting an inconsistent reward, but the ability is a straight up distraction at this point. Previously, thanks to the use of Arcane Steadfast, I could multi-cast Dark Verse about 4 times, spreading slash procs around crowds and light them all up like fireworks with Tragedy. Now, doing this with Dark Verse is essentially just a DoT spam, and not a very efficient one at that, and the risk of Tragedy not giving me the full payoff leads me to never cast 3 or 4. I am essentially building Dante to be as useful as possible without his abilities, and at that point, why the f*ck am I playing Dante? I could play Frost if I wanted absurd Overguard generation, and at least he gets to strip armor at the same time. I could also play Styanax, another frame who gives himself Overguard while pumping slash procs into his opponents. The question you may be asking is, "Why don't you play these frames then?" I do. I just want to enjoy the new frame that I invested real money into, to support the dev's efforts in recent updates while also skipping the grind that was ahead of me. How ironic that one of the only times I decide to do that, my reward for doing so is broken in half and given back to me. Then, when I ask why it is broken, the person who broke it acts as though it is undamaged.

The massive problem there is that you made the clarification of "It works fine on the left, but not on the right." The word "tends" being left in there also leads me to believe it can still happen on the left, it's just less likely. You've just shown why we hate LoS. It is buggy and half baked, and a lot of really stupid situations count as exceptions to "not being in line of sight." I should not be gambling whether or not my ability is going to hit an enemy that I can clearly see with my own two eyes. This issue could be fixed by just making Tragedy affect a cone in front of Dante, but DE is insisting on using "more advanced" logic for it for no reason other than to stroke the programmers' egos. My stance on this from the beginning is that Tragedy requires enemies to have DoT status tags before it can be really powerful. DE clearly intended for Dark Verse to be Dante's main "primer," as you need to cast it twice before you can even use Tragedy once. So why did we move from: "DoT Inflicted + 2 Dark Verse Casts + 1 Tragedy Cast = Big AOE Explosion" to: "DoT Inflicted + 2 Dark Verse Casts + 1 Tragedy Cast = If you're looking at it, it might die." This change harms the synergy between Dark Verse and Tragedy, because they are very clearly meant to compliment each other, but now it no longer matters if Dark Verse was used. What matters is if the enemy isn't hiding behind cover. Again, I have to reiterate this in every post I comment on, the problem here is the double standard that is being made. Saryn currently gets a better payoff from hitting one button than Dante used to get from casting 3 abilities and priming enemies with status. Why is the warframe who requires more effort from you being nerfed, but the one who has been notoriously ruining player experiences in pub lobbies has still gone untouched? Why does Tragedy need LoS, but abilities Miasma and Avalanche, which have much better utility through Viral status or Armor stripping, are perfectly fine wiping everything around you off the map. Should we not need to know what we're hitting there, too? I've seen a lot of people comparing Dante to Octavia as well, citing that she essentially doesn't even have to play the damn game after setting up her abilities. Do I want Octavia nerfed? No, of course not, because she only gets that reward through setting it up, just as Dante did. I'm still waiting for a genuine reason why Dante was the only one to receive these nerfs, other than the blatant "he's the new frame" argument

https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyAggressiveWormPJSalt-XA21cwDUsYU4yVcd An entire line of enemies not being cleared because Dante was in the way is unnoticeable, huh? I suppose all of the enemies that would have died when my back was turned previously, no longer being effected at all by tragedy is also unnoticeable. If you're really going to tell me you can't spot that difference, you must be baiting. Note that nobody is complaining about Dark Verse now abiding by it's own LoS rules. It's almost like the problem was Dark Verse being able to hit everything in front of you, not Tragedy nuking everything Dark Verse has touched. But again, in DE fashion, they overcompensated for the issue and added LoS to tragedy just to make sure the limit was as much of a leash to your fun as possible. The issue here, again, is not the fact that Dante's giant damage burst was taken from him; he technically does still have it. It's that it was unjustly changed, while he has to look on and watch several other frames ignore the rules that he has had placed on him for an ability that required more work for less reward. Tragedy will never compare to Miasma, Peacemakers, or even Avalanche, because those are one button casts. Tragedy requires setup, and a large investment of Energy for damage that is almost comparable to Saryn. Now that setup is meaningless, because it doesn't matter how many enemies you hit with Dark Verse; it matters how many aren't hiding behind the guardrail of the stairs. Yet, Tragedy's damage was nerfed for no explained reason. We were in fact told that they were fine with his damage output in a devshort, but then the very next day that was suddenly not true. The fact that Dante was nerfed so dramatically while Saryn and Mesa can still both hit 4 and wipe entire maps without trying is the problem here. It is a double standard, and doesn't make any sense. Do not give me that "He isn't DPS" nonsense; it's very clear that Dark Verse and Tragedy are solely damage based abilities and were intended to be from the beginning.

Our outcry was so loud yesterday because we know DE does not push updates over the weekend. We are stuck with wet noodle mage until Monday, and they likely still will not revert the changes because someone on the dev team is too stubborn to admit LoS itself is the problem, not the bugs we've been complaining about for years that will finally be "addressed." (I say addressed because, like Sticky Corners, the problem will not be completely fixed. It'll be given a loose band-aid in true DE fashion.) This means I will not be playing all weekend, effectively wasting my boosters, but there is no reason to play if they keep robbing me of my enjoyment.

DE Currently appears to be of the mindset of making Dante do more for less reward, so while it's a nice idea it likely won't see the light of day until a year later when they make an augment for him.

You will not be getting another cent out of me until our lord and savior Dante has his deliverance from the nerf demon's Line of Sight. Please, for the love of god. I don't want to have these negative impressions of the dev team blatantly ignoring the monstrous outcry.