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  1. Well this is on like page 60 so I don't expect many people to see, that aside, here's my thoughts! I went through and did a massive comprehensive response post to this dev workshop, covered plenty of issues and topics and rebalanced nearly every single weapon mod and arcane in it, would appreciate any and all feedback! If some devs have the time to read through it I'd be overjoyed to hear what they think.
  2. I went through and did a massive comprehensive post/response to the workshop. Would love for some devs to give it a once over and see what they think.
  3. I see what you mean on the numbers, but the numbers I'm using are a direct relation between a base mod and all of their variants, not their boost to the weapon specifically. This was intentional, but once I am returned to full brain power I'll do some thinking on this part. Firestorm, great point. Moved blast radius mods out of Exilus, thank you for the input. Pistoleer, no longer refreshable. New Arcanes, buffed their passive values to 100% mod power, kept the stacking bonuses at 50% though. These numbers can still definitely use more tweaks, but gave a small boost. Will do more thinking and math later when I am back home and settled.
  4. Mod Drain (and ranks potentially) can be adjusted, I just didn't feel like it. Many of the mods already do round figures in their view. Yes many mods wouldn't "look as pretty" partially ranked without clean numbers. It's about balance at the end of the day. I understand why lots of mods have specific percentage values to scale cleanly with ranks, but are the mod card numbers being perfectly clean more important than balance? Any other issues with this or is it just about those?
  5. Was thinking of a way to work an Aura mod type system into guns, but couldn't come up with anything substantial. On the last bit, of balancing capacities... Yes, that is a part of the modding process, as is formaing and adding a Catalyst to your gear. When you have a gun with a Catalyst and every single slot appropriately forma'd yet you still can't fit a mod, that is an issue.
  6. So to start off, this is mainly in response to the newly posted Arsenal Divide, melee/guns balance workshop. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, well, you're out of the loop, go read up here. The Mod Capacity Issue We currently have mod space issues on guns, but not melee. The reason for this is that we have "Aura" (stance) mods for melee, which allows us to significantly increase our total modding capacity, but we have a lack of any sort of mechanic on guns. There are lots of gun builds these days that lack enough capacity for a fully modded build. We already have mod capacity issues present with current builds, and looking at the high cost of all these new gun mods, it will become a much more prevalent issue in the weeks following the implementation of this workshop in the next major update. We need a new mechanic introduced that allows us to reach 80 mod capacity or potentially higher (as long as this method does not involve forma-ing, like with Kuva weapons). This does not need to be via a new gun Aura mod class, it could be done via many different means. This would effectively remove the mod capacity issue for guns that is becoming more and more problematic as time goes on. One idea I have, is that DE could give a base capacity of 5-10 when any gear is at rank 0, this would of course not be lost when you rank it up. Simply a base 5-10 capacity for all weapons regardless of ranks, and then capacity is added normally as you rank the gear up. This gives lower mastery players more room to mess around with builds, especially for low ranked gear, as well as would give 10-20 extra capacity once you have added a Catalyst to your gear, thus solving the mod capacity issue. The Mod Slot Issue The way modding works is you have restricted slots, so you want to spread out what you build for. Stacking every mod into +damage nets a significant amount less total dps than putting some damage mods, multishot, firerate, elementals, etc. For this reason you don't typically spend two slots on stacking any given stat type within a build. You won't typically use two +damage mods, because a second damage mod grants less total dps than many other stat types you could now also build into. This presents an issue where mods of the same stat type effectively "compete" for the same mod slot. Since you can't spare two slots for a specific stat, you want the most out of the one slot you do have for that stat type. This leads to many issues with the current modding system. There are many scenarios where some mods have such ridiculously high boosts compared to other mods that grant their stat type, that you will only ever slot that specific mod. This leads to unhealthy and minimized built diversity, and really shoe-horns a specific build meta that you shouldn't stray from. In it's current iteration, Condition Overload grants to much damage for melees that it's the uncontested king of damage for melee, and takes up the damage slot that nothing can fight it for. Primed Pressure Point is so far behind Condition Overload that it's never worth considering unless your weapon isn't affected by Condition Overload at all. With this rebalance I will be standardizing things. The goal is to make all forms of a specific stat type balanced, based on if they're a passive boost, or conditional. Primed mods are stronger than their base mod counterparts, so they will of course be stronger than those. Primed mods however will be overpowered by conditional mods, as they need to be set up and stacked to apply, which is a healthy balance for a stronger mod. This will push forth a new type of arsenal balance, where you are picking between different mod categories (primed, nightmare/multi-stat, conditional) for any given stat, based on your preference, playstyle, and effective power needed for the content you're doing. On-Kill Stacking Issue A few notes before-hand... On-kill stacking is incredibly poorly designed as a gameplay mechanic. On-kill buff stacking means the enemy priority is now flipped, and for higher level content you will have issues building up your buffs once the enemy power scales to a point where the mod without it's buffs stacked simply isn't enough to stack the buffs up because it relies on kill. Your buffs aren't stacked, you're bare and alone. A group of enemies spawns in... three or four Lancers, a Shield Lancer, a Ballista, a Heavy Gunner, and a Bombard. Now here's the issue, you have no buffs stacked, yet they stack off of kills. This means instead of being able to prioritize the actually high priority target, like the Heavy Gunner, you are forced to focus down the low priority trash mobs instead, so that you're able to stack up your buffs enough to finally dispatch the heavier units. This is bad design, flipping enemy priority upside down simply to build up your weapon buffs. You're just chilling, killing Grineer in dozens at a time in a high level mission, steel path or endurance or whatever. You relocate to a different tile, your buffs all drop off as you aren't focusing on enemies, just finding a better place to camp. Now, you're without your buffs against strong high level enemies, except the issue is your buffs stack up on kill. The enemies are so strong now that without the buffs stacked, you have difficulty killing enemies at all to even begin the buff ramp-up. This is bad design, you have issues stacking your buffs at all simply because without them stacked you have trouble killing enemies, which is required to stack them up. All on-kill stacking should be re-thought, and implemented in a healthier way. Lowered durations, simpler conditions. Allowing us to build up the conditional buffs without having to kill an enemy is a much healthier design. Mod Standardization An issue that arose when going through this workshop and rebalancing the changes was that most specific mod categories are not standardized in any way. Some Primed mods will be a 30% increase to their base mod, while others are up at 85%. The same goes for other mod types like Acolyte mods, Corrupted mods, and Nightmare mods. In this thread one of my core themes is standardization, something Warframe lacks. I will be giving every mod type a specific power benchmark, I'll explain how those work down below. With this overhaul I will be adjusting a slew of mods core to the necessary balance changes. I'll put all of these changes below, so it can be condensed into one section, and then in the rest of the thread will be referring to these tweaked values, as opposed to the live version of the game. Yes this is a nerf to plenty of mods, while also being a buff to many others. You can complain if you'd like, but it's in the name of making things more concise and standardized, and giving every mod category a clear identity. The following values are "mod power", a mods power increase in relation to the base mod of that type. Every mod that is not a base mod will have it's values set to a specific percentage of the base mod value based on it's category. An example of this is as follows. Pressure Point = 120% melee damage Primed Pressure Point = 165% melee damage The Primed variant of the Pressure Point mod is a 37.5% increase to Pressure Point, which gives it a relative "mod power" of 137.5%. This means when using the "mod power" statistic denoted above, it would look like this. Pressure Point = 100% Primed Pressure Point = 137.5% Base mods will always be 100% mod power, as they are the neutral benchmark for all other mod categories to be balanced around. Every mod category/type will have it's own "mod power" statistics, to be balanced off/around other categories. Base Mod = 100% Primed Mod = 150% Corrupted Mod = 150% positive stat, 25% negative stat Multi-stat / Nightmare Mod = 80% main stat, 60% second stat Set Mod = 90% + gimmick Conditional Mod = 200% To properly balance some of these numbers, I will be buffing base mod values. Some mod variants will remain untouched while the base mod is buffed, or vice versa. With all of these changes, the "modding conflicts" that prevent you from slotting different mods for the same stat, like Point Strike and Critical Delay, should be entirely removed. These changes serve to balance so that we will be making choices between multiple types of the same mod, however the game should not actually prevent us from slotting multiple of one type. This serves to prevent build diversity, and prevents players from really messing around with their builds for niche situations. The players should be allowed to slot any mods in any combination, except for two copies of the exact same mod. Now before I get into the tweaks to existing mods, I will be doing a large section of trash/useless mods that are simply redundant and don't need to exist. These mods should be removed, because as previously stated, they're simply mods that will never be worth using because of the stats they grant, or they are redundant to other mods. An example of this is all broken mods, obtained during the tutorial, as well as the 30% and 90% impact/puncture/slash mods. We have the 120% impact/puncture/slash mods, which I have chosen as the new base mod for those boosts, and am opting to now just remove the clutter/redundant weaker ips mods. Note: Based on feedback I will be rounding all max rank mod values with decimals to the nearest integer, but only on appropriate stats. Mods to be Removed/Scrapped Entirely Along with all of the other goals in this section, I will be doing an Exilus mod overhaul. This means I'm changing up the criteria for Exilus mods, and adjusting all existing mods accordingly. The Exilus category is a great addition to guns, but they're lacking some fundamental design goals. I will be making all quality of life, including indirect DPS increase mods, to the Exilus category. This means your reload speed mods, magazine size mods, and the like. As explained above, we have slot issues, moving these mods to Exilus allows us to effectively have a quality of life stat slot on guns, so that your stats like magazine and reload will not need to directly compete with your damage increasing mods. This will be a huge buff overall to guns, allowing you to slot quality of life on any weapon without sacrificing your damage for it. I will be tagging mods with their weapon category, as well as an added little "Exilus" tag, for ones that are Exilus, or should be moved to the Exilus slot. This will lead to a more refined modding system, the main slots can be sacrificed for quality of life mods if you wish to stack multiple of them, but at it's core you're not required to sacrifice any core damage slots for quality of life just to fix a weapon's abhorrent reload speed. Mods that are being Converted to Exilus Base Mods; 100% mod power (base, all mods balanced off of these values) Primed Mods; 150% mod power Multi-stat / Nightmare Mods; 80% mod power main stat, 60% mod power secondary stat Corrupted Mods; 150% mod power positive stat, 25% mod power negative stat Conditional Mods; 200% mod power Conditional Multi-stat Mods; 160% mod power main stat, 120% mod power secondary stat Set Mods; 90% mod power, with an added gimmick Multi-stat Set Mods; 72% main stat, 54% second stat Conditional Set Mods; 180% mod power, with an added gimmick Conditional Multi-stat Set Mods; 144% main stat, 108% second stat Amalgam Mods; 90% main stat Pseudo set-mods, so I set to the 90% mod power. Side gimmicks are very random so I chose to not bother standardizing them. Specialized / Augment Mods; Unique to a specific weapon. Attack Speed Issue The same as above goes for melee of course, and building for attack speed. The current issue with slotting attack speed mods is that there is no competition, Berserker is the clear cut best speed mod without contest. The reason for this is that Berserker is a final multiplier, it scales with other speed buffs and mods, and is also the largest attack speed bonus of any single mod. There is no contest in the attack speed mod slot, it's always Berserker for these reasons. Berserker having a slightly higher value than other attack speed mods makes sense, as it's a conditional mod, and needs to be stacked and kept up otherwise you will lose it all. The issues come from it's multiplicative scaling nature, as well as the fact that the mod can be built up within a single swing, and has a ridiculously long duration for how easy it is to build up. With the removal of speed mod stacking, Berserker needs to have it's attack speed bonus adjusted to be like other mods, not scaling on top of other attack speed sources. This, along with adjusting the method of stacking, and duration, would bring Berserker in-line with other speed mods, while keeping it a small amount ahead when fully stacked due to it's conditional nature. Berserker: +10% attack speed per stack, 80% cap (8 stacks); 4s duration Stacking Method: on hit, +1 stack (max 1 per swing) Stacks fall off one at a time, as opposed to all at once. No longer applies as a final multiplier, it now applies the same as every other attack speed mod. Removed on-kill stacking, it's a design issue. Moved to on-hit, larger build-up but easier condition. Critical Chance Issue As explained in the Mod Slot section, mods compete for slots. Currently with melee there is no contest, Blood Rush is the undisputed winner when combo is so easy to maintain. Even with it's workshop tweaks taking Blood Rush down to 440%, it's still a ridiculous amount of critical chance that will beat out any competition. For this reason I have opted to further nerf the mod, setting it right to the target value of 200% base mod power. Blood Rush: +30% critical chance per stack, 330% cap (11 stacks) Stacking Method: scales with melee combo counter Damage Issue The issue of introducing Condition Overload to other weapon types, is much like on melee, it now competes with the base damage mods for a mod slot. This is further exaggerated by the many new +damage arcanes being introduced, there are dozens of things competing for a single slot now. To address this, I believe all of the Arcanes should be changed, instead of some form of just +damage they should be unique and grant differing effects depending on your desired playstyle. New Condition Overload for melee looks fine, however slapping the condition overload effect onto a Galvanized status chance mod is very strange. I have opted to create Condition Overload duplicates for every weapon type, and their damage corresponds to their weapon type's base damage mod. To properly balance all of these around their base mod values, I will need to do minor tweaks to any existing Primed mods. I have also opted to lower the damage per stack of condition overload mods slightly, while increasing the stack limit to 4. Almost every single weapon in the game is able to upkeep 3 status types naturally without even modding for any more, which makes it too easy to abuse in basically any build. The effect of this would be forcing the base damage mods out of the slot in every single situation, since you can naturally cap the stacks on virtually any weapon without any effort. Condition Overload tweaks, and Condition Overload for other weapon types. Additional Melee Mod Tweaks There are some other outlier melee mods that serve to drastically boost melee power above other weapon types. In this section I will be breaking these down and adjusting their values to meet the previously explained power criteria. Due to guns having multishot as an effective status chance multiplier, it makes sense for melee status chance mods to be more powerful than their gun counterparts. For this reason I will be buffing the base status chance mod for melee, and adjusting Weeping Wounds appropriately. Melee Prowess: +165% status chance Weeping Wounds: +30% status chance per stack, 330% cap (11 stacks) Stacking Method: scales with melee combo counter Galvanized Mods Galvanized mods are an interesting addition, but they lack lots of standardizing in their values. In this thread I will address this, they will have 2/3 of their corresponding base mods value with no stacks, scaling up to 200% of the base mod when fully stacked. Galvanized mods, unlike most conditionals, are scaling conditionals that still have an effect even with no stacks built up. For this reason I have opted to make them start at 66.6% of their base mod's power, increasing to 100% at 1 stack of the buff, and 200% (as all conditionals should be) when fully stacked. This means a primed mod is a 50% bonus from the base mod, and then conditionals are a 50% increase from this, which is of course 200%. It leaves a good use case for conditionals by leaving them more powerful than their base (1+ stacks ) and primed counterparts (3+ stacks), but doesn't completely overpower them, due to their conditional nature and how they're not always in effect. Rifle: Shotgun: Pistol: Arcanes As mentioned above, I believe the Arcanes should not simply be +damage. We already have the base damage mod, condition overload copies, and the pre-existing +damage arcanes all fighting for a slot on your weapon loadouts. I will be tuning up all old Arcanes, and in the case of weapon buffing ones, moving them to their appropriate weapon category. There will be Arcane slots on every weapon type, including melee, to incorporate this change. With that out of the way, the stacking methods need changes as well, all of the new ones are currently on kill, which as previously explained is horrible design. I will be changing all of these newly designed arcanes from +damage arcanes, to more specialized ones that allow you to choose based on your playstyle. I will be keeping a single +damage arcane in the mix, as a potential competition for the base +damage mod and condition overload variant, but there will be other arcanes that grant other buffs. Along with tuning up the new arcanes, I will be going through and moving all weapon buff arcanes to their corresponding weapon. Melee weapons will be getting an arcane slot as well as guns, this is to incorporate the melee Arcanes into their weapon category instead of leaving them tacked on to the Warframe's Arcane slots. Existing Arcane Tweaks, and Arcane Slot Changes; In this section I will be moving all of the currently existing weapon buffing Arcanes to their corresponding weapon type. Along with this I will also be removing all on-kill effects, and tweaking values to bring them in-line with the 200% conditional mod power target value put forth earlier in the standardization chunk of the thread. Warframe -> Any Weapon; The following Arcanes have been removed from Warframes, and can now be equipped to any weapon class. Warframe -> Primary; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Primary weapon class. Warframe -> Rifle; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Rifle weapon class. Warframe -> Sniper; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Sniper weapon class. Warframe -> Shotgun; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Shotgun class. Warframe -> Pistol; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Secondary (pistol) class. Warframe -> Melee; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Melee class. Kitgun -> Any Gun; The following Arcanes have been moved to any gun type. Zaw Arcane -> Melee Arcane; The following Arcanes have been moved to the Melee class. New Arcanes; New damage Arcane removed. We already have damage Arcanes that have now been moved to their appropriate slot, we don't need extra +damage Arcanes per weapon type, the current options are more than enough. Tuned these all to have a base bonus without being stacked, and then two conditional bonuses that are stackable and tied to their timer. For the new unique specialized Arcanes, I will be giving them 50% mod power for all of their stacking bonuses, and 100% mod power to the passive bonus. The goal with these is to have small boosts to your weapon playstyle when equipped, and then extra bonuses when you actually play around the stacking effect. Want to spray and pray with a bullet hose? Equip Merciless, it grants more ammo, and then a stacking bonus to fire-rate and reload when in effect! That's the design goal with these new Arcanes. I will be listing the Arcanes multiple times, this is due to their variance in stat boosts between weapon types. Due to weapon base mods varying between classes, the stat buffs on the Arcanes will also vary per weapon type, so that is the reason I list them multiple times, to show the specific stats for each weapon class. Merciless (Rifle): +6% firerate, +4% reload speed (per stack); +90% ammo max (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +30% firerate, +20% reload speed, +90% ammo max Stacking Method: on hit, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 4s duration. Only one pellet per shot can count as a hit, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for spray and pray and bullet hoses, just shoot and hope for the best. Merciless (Shotgun): +9% firerate, +5% reload speed (per stack); +90% ammo max (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +45% firerate, +25% reload speed, +90% ammo max Stacking Method: on hit, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 4s duration. Only one pellet per shot can count as a hit, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for spray and pray and bullet hoses, just shoot and hope for the best. Merciless (Pistol): +7.2% firerate, +5% reload speed (per stack); +90% ammo max (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +36% firerate, +25% reload speed, +90% ammo max Stacking Method: on hit, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 4s duration. Only one pellet per shot can count as a hit, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for spray and pray and bullet hoses, just shoot and hope for the best. Deadhead (Rifle, Pistol): +6% weak-point damage, -6% recoil (per stack); +40% accuracy (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +30% weak-point damage, -30% recoil, +40% accuracy Stacking Method: on weak-point hit, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 8s duration. Only one pellet per shot can count as a hit, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for accurate gunplay, rewarding skill and good aim. Deadhead (Shotgun): +6% weak-point damage, -8% recoil (per stack); +40% accuracy (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +30% weak-point damage, -40% recoil, +40% accuracy Stacking Method: on weak-point hit, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 8s duration. Only one pellet per shot can count as a hit, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for accurate gunplay, rewarding skill and good aim. Careless (Rifle): +5% spread, +6% flight-speed/beam length (per stack); +30% blast radius (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +25% spread, +30% flight-speed/beam length, +30% blast radius Stacking Method: on hitting 2+ enemies in a single shot, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 6s duration. Only one pellet per shot will count, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for area of effect weaponry, allowing you to more effectively clear out hordes of mobs. Careless (Shotgun, Pistol): +5% spread, +4% flight-speed/beam length (per stack); +30% blast radius (always in effect) Max Stack Bonus: +25% spread, +20% flight-speed/beam length, +30% blast radius Stacking Method: on hitting 2+ enemies in a single shot, +1 stack; 5 stack cap, 6s duration. Only one pellet per shot will count, so it takes multiple shots regardless of pellet count to build up the effect. This arcane is tuned for area of effect weaponry, allowing you to more effectively clear out hordes of mobs. Conclusion / Moving Forward Well, this thread turned out way bigger than I expected. I did plenty of rebalancing of mods, standardizing and making everything properly balanced within weapon classes. There, with these tweaks, should be a proper toss-up between primed mods and conditionals (or base when a primed mod doesn't exist for X stat on Y weapon). This will put forth a much healthier arsenal and modding scenario where you are picking between passive mods (base/primed) and conditionals depending on your playstyle, preference, and the situation at hand. Moving forward, if there are power discrepancies between weapon classes, these can be addressed by adjusting mod values. You would simply adjust the base mod, and it's primed/conditional counterparts stat values to meet the power ranges of 100/150/200 for base, primed, conditional. This would keep mods standardized and easy to understand when considering power differences, while simplifying the effort needed to address outlier mods that serve to boost a weapon's power too much. If you notice any errors in the thread please let me know! This was a lot of work to do, so I don't expect it to be 100% mistake free, but I've gone over it multiple times and think it's basically proofed by this point. That aside, thank you so much for putting in the time to read this thread, I spent lots of time on it and would be overjoyed to receive any feedback/input. Let's get DE on this!
  7. I really dislike applying the nullifier stuff to our shields. There are so many scaling factors relying on enemy damage output that it wouldn't work well in practice. The scaling needs to be reliant on the target doing the scaling, in this case us as the Tenno, increasing our shields. It should not rely on enemy damage output for some convoluted mechanics. Shield-gating and shield mechanics in general with my rework have a similar function, they prevent one-shotting without making us infinitely invincible, having the nullifier reduction type applied to us would heavily complicate this and I really dislike that.
  8. So basically, remove our progression system to add difficulty? Wow, what a poorly thought out post. Where's the downvote button?
  9. Sounds like you're not doing enough damage tenno... Might I suggest trying out Mag? I consistently out damage and outkill Saryns with Mag, it's really not difficult. Saryn is not as strong as people say, she scales very poorly into endurance content, she's just a good low level nuker and people think she's a god for that reason.
  10. While yes, that does allow you to get significant reduction on shields, that is also a blanket reduction. The reduction from these sources applies to not just shields, but also armour/health, which means it's more effective to still in those cases rely on health/armour since you also have it stacking with armour so the reduction is significantly stronger when applied to that as opposed to shields. There should be a method that increases damage reduction specifically to shields, with not extra conditions. No needing to be airborne, no needing to do X or Y, just simply slap the mod on and your shields are now stronger, but only your shields.
  11. I literally told you where in the code you can find all the calculations. If you don't have the knowledge to read and understand the code and the math taking place in it that's on you.
  12. Main.java in the WWDC directory, lines 2550 - 2666 are the DPS calculator. Enjoy the read.
  13. I was saying other programs do not account for it, I could go look through the entire code but I really don't feel like it. Do you know the formulas that online build sites use? No? Didn't think so, anyone relying on those must lack credibility by your logic then. I will go take a peek through the code and get back to you if I find it, but there's lots to skim through.
  14. If you get more damage out of a damage proc, and the only purpose of a debuff proc is to help with damage, which is the case with viral, then why would you ever bother slapping on viral? Yes, I worded that very poorly. Modding weapons around the enemy in question. Going up against Grineer? Slap on Corrosive + Puncture to shred armour. Critical weapons are always built for crit, status weapons are always built for status. It's simply swapping the status types and damage types that you're building for out for others that are more effective against the target faction. They are being treated differently to have equal outputs. A flat amount, scaling with enemy level. Not being able to increase the status proc damage via any means but increasing your proc rate to me just seems... incredibly out of place. This absolutely kills slower proccing weapons without buffing their status values up into the hundreds. I dislike status effectiveness being simply a function of procs/second for this reason. If a slower firing weapon, like Opticor Vandal, had it's procs be as weak as an Amprex, then without having it's status inflated to a few hundred so it procs multiple times per shot it would never be able to keep up with status builds, where in current Warframe it very much is able to. Just a flat amount, well... This runs into the same issues as above. A percentage I don't believe would work at all. Then procs are equally effective regardless of enemy level, which would be quite silly. Just bring a status monster to level cap and proc so much status that it shreds their entire health or whatever in seconds. I agree Warframe needs less power-creep, but this isn't what's causing power creep. There are so many factors in play, procs scaling with a weapon's damage is not one of them. Yes, you are correct, it doesn't account for any of those. I don't see a reason to account for clip size, ammo limits, or reload speed. Yes magazine size and reload speed have an effect on your fire-rate technically, but it's indirect as opposed to fire-rate. Punch through is simply allowing you to proc on a different enemy, there is no reason to incorporate this. Multishot yes, it affects status application rate much like fire-rate does, but it makes sense that shooting more pellets is more chances to proc. Shotguns and multi-pellet weapons are naturally tuned more for status due to this, that probably sounds hypocritical but I don't see it as such. Fire-rate and multishot, while having similar effects on status rate, are very different in function. AoE is fine, I don't see any issues with AoE weapons being able to proc in an AoE so long as their status is tuned for it. Forced procs would simply be unaffected by efficacy, or 1.00 efficacy functionally. Melee weapon range has nothing to do with this honestly, it falls into the same basket as AoE weaponry. I find it odd because now your proc effectiveness would depend on the enemy, not your gear's power, but it really depends on the way it's implemented. I don't know specifically what part of an enemies health, like would they have say an enemy with 300hp, you proc toxin, the enemy is level 1 so it deals 100 toxin, the base proc value of toxin. Then you go against an enemy that's level 2, proc toxin, does it scale based on the same multiplier formula enemy health/shield values do? If so then you just need a status monster for any situation, if it only scales off of an enemy's health. You don't need to worry about your weapon's base damage, you could take Mk-1 Braton, build it entirely for status application rate, slap in as much fire-rate and status chance/toxin chance as you can, and voila, you're now dealing with level cap simply because the procs scale off of the enemy, not your gear's direct power. There's another type that could be implemented that I dislike, it's the status HP system. It would involve entirely removing the status chance stat and basing procs applied on damage dealt, it works off of status health, so regardless of any factors, as long as you have an equal DPS output your weapon type doesn't matter, you can proc statuses on the enemy in question. Status health systems are great, but I feel those absolutely do not work in a game like Warframe, a fast paced shooter. You have to build up to a proc, not to mention the way proc scaling works is way different as it's now reliant on an enemies HP value. I love the stacking nature of Warframe's status system, and absolutely believe this needs to stay. There could be ways to implement status health, like you would remove status as a chance entirely, make the base value for proc thresholds 100 damage, and then each enemy could have a status modifier value that makes their status HP thresholds scale with it. So like, level 1 enemy, 500 health, 1.00x status resistance (100 status hp, the benchmark base status hp value). Deal 100 toxin damage? You applied one toxin proc, deal another 100? Applies another proc. Deal 100 viral? Boom, one viral proc. Since the enemy has 100 status hp, and 500hp, you can only get 4 procs of any type before they die. It arbitrarily caps your status output based on the enemy, which I very much dislike. On paper it sounds fine, but now you're basing how many statuses you can proc on an enemy off of that specific enemy, as well as having the procs, both debuffs and damage, now tied to DPS. I don't dislike having debuff procs tied to DPS like damage procs are, I just don't see a realistic way to do that without changing the entire status system.
  15. In a game where you're meant to build around the enemy, and mod against them, I see preventing certain weapons that are effective at applying status from using specific types of status procs as poor balance. I believe if a weapon has an appropriate status chance to justify status builds, it can build status of any kind. Status is status is status. So, as for de-coupling damage of procs from weapon damage, what is it then reliant on? Enemies have a status health stat and each time you deal that in say, toxin, they get applied one toxin proc and the damage of it is static regardless of level? I am open to other solutions, yes, but I see de-coupling weapon damage from damaging status procs as something that won't work in practice. How would this get implemented? What factors would affect the damage of the procs in this case? I'm genuinely curious, I would love for a solution that doesn't incorporate efficacy to be appropriate, I just haven't seen one that achieves my aim with this rework without entirely replacing the status system as a whole, which I disagree with. I don't see the status system as needing a massive systemic over-haul, it's simply in need of balancing. As for the formula, it's quite simple. Efficacy is derived from the following. Fire-arms: 1 / (x / 5) x being fire-rate For charged weapons, to get the proper effective fire-rate value, you plug their charge-rate and fire-rates into the following formula. Effective Fire-rate: (fire-rate / [charge speed * fire-rate + 1]) For melee weapons it's simply 1 / x x being attack speed Yes, status efficacy looks messy. It's adding another stat to balance the issue I (and many other players I gathered feedback from, not only here in this thread) had issues with. I will start looking for alternatives (I had previously but found none that did what I aimed to achieve), but I am not entirely sure how anything would work if you de-couple damage from damage procs. To me that seems incredibly inappropriate, because it makes me imagine that the effectiveness of status is now tied to an enemies health, which for a fast paced horde shooter seems very odd. Of course I am not 100% aware of the other methods of balancing, I have seen one that works basically how I mentioned above and really disliked it. To my understanding it would mean procs are scaled based on enemy level/health, which I dislike. If you are able to explain concisely please be my guest, I would love an easily digestible explanation of other ways the system could function. De-coupling damage from damage procs is not something I agree with, but hit me with it. I'm listening. As a side note, I am now going to re-read every response and try to understand any alternatives proposed as I wait for your response.
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