[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

37 minutes ago, Dabnician said:

That already occurs when players start to change the match settings to friends only and solo.

Some reasoning for doing so I seek to solve with this solution - making pub matchmaking a more reliably non-negative experience by reducing how much randoms can step on each other's proverbial toes.

That's improvement.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Depends on the frame, a limbo who you only built for power maximization can die as soon as you look at a lv40 nox. It varies from frame to frame, surely you can put in the said ehp mods or hp supporters but the grand scheme stays the same.

Ideally i would wish to first modify shields, health and armor into three hp types. Armor gets consumed on each direct hit on healt, decreasing the damage but permanently losing the amounts, health as the standard health and shields as full defense tools what seriously decreases all bypassig damage types effectiveness after that all enemies are changed to deal hard capped percentage based damage, like for example a bombard can deal 300 damage +50% of your current hp or something similar. Surely this would effectively negate the gimmick of some frames but seriously being a meatwall is nothing special.

I know that those wont happen at all because it would be no longer warframe in some sense but one can dream.

Isn't that just shifting the attrition problem onto armour, if there's no built-in way to replenish it? It'd lead to necessary homogeny since frames (especially Valkyr/Inaros/Nidus) could no longer function relying on "armoured health" as defensive strategy.

Everyone would need to (primarily) use shields, since hits beyond that leave a lingering handicap not unlike Shattering Impact or multiple Corrosive procs allows us to execute upon enemies currently. It works outgoing because typically we're not facing any single opponent for extended periods (bosses notwithstanding), whereas incoming - from endless opposition - would just make that armour more worthless than people think shields are now.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1 I know that was the old system and if it still existed I'd have a very different view on the acceptability of a death or three during a mission. And don't get me wrong, there are times when I will try to avoid dying and self-revival. But say I'm hunting Teralyst for shards, killing them isn't the issue, xp gain is not much of a consideration, the biggest factor is doing it as rapidly as possible so I can get as many shards as possible in the allotted time. I probably won't die more than a couple of times, maximum in a single run, so its very much "if I die, I die" and don't stop shooting. Similarly for a defence if everyone else has gone off to a picnic in who-knows-where. 

3 Well going in poorly equipped does require an adjustment in play. But we learn to manage (or occasionally get carried). Regarding the non-rhino frames I think that it goes Excal (my starter so not much good for me) Frost, Mag, Nova. Ember and Hydroid end up being roughly similar in level. 

Nyx could come before all of those (she did for me), Vauban (somehow) and Inaros. Thinking it over now I must have gotten fairly lucky because I am reasonably sure that I had Rhino before I went on vacation in April, and I don't think that I'd gotten off Jupiter by then. 

4. No that's not right. I do care about retaining newer players, but I disagree that this is the way to do it. According to Steam most players never manage to level even the starter items. 80 percent have never gotten a Sentinel. The one huge hurdle that I've seen or heard many, many times has been the difficulty in understanding what they need to do, because the tutorial is so very poor. The other is not liking how little damage their weapon that used to be great is doing to higher level enemies (most of the time it's usually been the result of poor modding or picking the wrong damage type as far as I could tell, I've had one person tell me that they didn't want to put multishot because they figured it would be better to do more damage with the shots that are coming out than making more come out, as a more recent example). 

I haven't heard many people complain about not wanting to die in the game, although most people do seem to hate Nox's. I'm not saying that it's not an issue at all, just disagreeing strongly about the magnitude compared to others that affect newer players. (Since we all seem to be on the same page now wrt people who are more advanced not needing this.) 

5. Here's the problem I'm having with this hypothetical. You say it's not going to immunise against death, but in your scenario, it's pretty much the main way that the player is going to die short of boredom, old age and trying to use a nuke to grenade jump. I am concerned that it not translate into more ennui, or behaviour that must be unlearned as that's also a very frustrating experience, especially when you've done nothing wrong in the first place. 

And when you say you notice people who have Rejuvenation on, is it from different gameplay or the squad profile thing? 

 

I suspect that the whole thing is to encourage team based play. No man is an island... (Except possibly Atlas if he stands on Hydroid's puddle?)

--

I've seen warframe described as a "shared instance" shooter instead of "team based", and much of the time that's pretty apt. But proper team composition, and tactics, would probably make warframe far better. It's just that much of the time, we don't need that to achieve the objectives before us. 

1. Well, Eidolons are also far beyond 'newbie' - by that point you've done War Within, have access to probably the full chart. Bit of a tangent, but that aside, those are the 'fairer' deaths that I wouldn't ideally have ignorable by whatever solution we have. Not just extended attrition, which is the only specific case that needs addressing IMO.
2. --
3. I just intended to give an example of something analogous to the new player's life that we still have up at the higher levels. They're 'poorly equipped' by default, until they get their mods, credits and endo together.
   Excalibro and Rhino are arguably off-curve for 'naked' success while energy is available, but within the planet range we considered for the resources alone (up to Mars/Phobos), there's only those two and Mag from bosses, and Volt as another starter option. The loss of Trinity as an early option in favour of more accessible Excalibur was unfortunate. One planet further (Ceres) grants access to Frost as well, but Frost is situational until thoroughly well-modded due to shield-reliance (still susceptible to attrition) and main protection being fixed-location.
4. It may be true that health-attrition and dying isn't the biggest new-player obstruction, but that doesn't necessarily mean this is no longer a potential issue that might account for some of them, and is a far simpler change to make than planning, discussing and implementing better tutorials and guidance in the core game. No reason it can't be slipped in in advance of that more troublesome item.
   There are some niche reasons for wanting (equivalent) damage over multishot, actually, but those aren't relevant to our discussion here.
   Apparently people like the Nox? Personally, I think it's another 'decent on paper, miserable execution' like the Nullifiers. Giving it high toxin shots is at odds with the idea of having to stand there and aim more accurately - and not every weapon loadout has the ability to get precise enough, either. Could be worse, though. Could be fully immune except the head.
5. I notice the Rejuv regen, visually. Not in gameplay, at my level, but those ticking-up numbers catch my eye and I think, "hang on, we don't have an Oberon.." and then I remember the aura exists.
   If the passive regen solution leaves you worried, maybe the universal health orb drops are better suited for your perspective? Players see exactly how much they're getting, they see that it's dropping from killed enemies, and it's harder to translate into hindering behaviour because it's clearly related to their ability to keep up with killing. They can't just wander around slowly plinking enemies to death with single-digit damage without severely limiting the inflow of health.

 

Encouraging teamplay should be positive, not coerced through negatives. As long as the solo instance exists, it has to be considered valid. Dying as a newbie just because you feel like being a solo player (case study @Teridax68 ) is not a positive 'you can do better, go further, with some teammates to help', it's a negative 'Oh you're on your own? Screw you, get ded' and you're just on a hard limit (for endless) or have to hope you can finish the mission before your revives are burned.

Another example of this from the past is when Sorties just had Assassinations included and Vay Hek was immune to status. You were almost forced to go in with a team, ideally with Corrosive Projections, but even just for the multiple damage sources. Otherwise, even if you couldn't die to the enemies, the boss would just heal up whatever damage you could do to the erratically-flying, small, temporary hitbox provided. It spurned the solo-inclined player because the devs just threw in level- and modifier-scaled bosses back then without any consideration of the specific gameplay.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

On 2018-10-21 at 6:34 AM, UseNet said:

I'm going to snip the rest of your comment and focus on this part. You have just stated you want no influences from teammates whatsoever. This is a teamplay based game, you can solo a lot but that doesn't change the fact that Warframe is a team game at its core.

So you hate Warframes core mechanic of teamplay and want it changed? Good luck with that. You can play solo, or you can play with teammates who are willing to let you be in control of their warframe choices. Good luck with that too.

I'm sad to see this post didn't get duly removed.

For absolute unequivocal clarity to any readers (and especially those two upvoters on that post):

I never actually claimed what this individual quoted.

It was a libellous misquote of me giving an example of what I am EXPLICITLY NOT trying to claim as the reasoning for this suggestion.

Flamebait, nothing more. Mods should have caught it.

 

18 hours ago, Dabnician said:

Because I accepted the things that come with pugging.

How about filters on match making, so some one that is "finding squad" can instead do that with a filter menu that allows them to select which frames they want to group with.

Maybe a pre launch screen so I can see what my team is going to be before going full launch. So I can drop out or invite others. With a ready to launch confirmation.

I think it would be better to allow some one to uncheck "limbo" from a filter because that type of mechanic could also allow people to say they want to group with  only a specific class or set of classes. This would be way easier to implement then mechanics that have to happen in the mission

Heck add MR too 

Are you fresh to the thread and jumped to the last page? I actually addressed that sort of idea already.

It isn't appropriate to segregate users, diluting the playerbase with ever-more-specific matchmaking filtration is the last thing we need.

This 'pre-vetting' would also prevent joining missions-in-progress, so good luck getting anyone when populations get lower.

It's more anti-cooperation to matchmake away entirely than it is to have a seamless opt-out of specific unwanted effects that still allows taking advantage of the rest of a given kit.

It would also be much more complex to implement, actually - every potential matchmaking candidate needs checking against every current squad member's avoidance list. How would public matchmaking reconcile a Host (A) who successfully matches with a client (B), then successfully matches with a third player (C) but this player is within the opt-outs of (B) that (A) does not share? In this situation either (A) is unknowingly restricted further, or (B) is still forced to play with unwanted matches.

If you precise-matched every potential candidate you'd probably get no squadmates at all. Or, if a player is supposed to vet between squad forming and mission launch, you get a constant "Oh, no thanks" dropping-out of players, and the system has to go comparing all those lists all over again.

It's not viable.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1, a big part of the problem is that "feels" are subjective not objective. In my case I started the game knowing that I'm a noob. For me this meant acceptance that I will fail, "everybody falls the first time". I also accepted that it's a video game, and that failure isn't permanent, that we're given multiple lives to try and complete the mission objectives. The self-revival mechanic also showed me that the Devs anticipated us unavoidably going down from time to time, and incorporated an offensive aspect to revival (that it knocks down nearby enemies) as well as a built in defensive aspect, short term invulnerability so you can gtfo. To counter the benefits, a cost was added and a limit to the number of times it could be done. (Later I learned that players facing much more difficult content can get extra revives which seemed fair.) 

Objectively this makes death a viable option. It may not be the one we want to use, but it's there for us from the very start. 

2. That's true for all of us, and it's why I suggested refreshing their new player experience to Bear-dude a while ago. At least we'd be comparing notes about the same thing, even if we came at it from different angles. And that way all the claims of how terrible/insurmountable/impossible/whatever the experience is, would hopefully be just a bit more realistic. Like I said to him, our experience with the game would shift us towards the top of the class but I generally feel that there'll probably always be some D.A.R.Y.L. with a NES Power Glove who makes us look like we're standing still. 😧

3. No problem, I'd started paying attention because someone claimed that the energy drop rate is too low on Earth. It didn't click with my memories, so I checked with a new frame. I should probably have kept a journal or something, but it didn't seem to be important at the time. 

And yeah the materials are pretty far flung, but I think that they also drop in daily logins and alerts. I think that's how I managed. Could be wrong. And there's usually a taxi around if folks want to ask for one. 

4. Oh other stuff drops it too, like the enemy Kubrows and the Kavats for sure. It's not a very common thing but I'm sure that it's in their drops. 

Like I said in 1, death's not always palatable, but it's not always permanent either. The mission objective is the only real goal we need to achieve. Not taking damage/dying isn't one for most of the game modes. Beyond that, we're talking about feeling upset because there are things we can't control, aren't actually in the goals we've been given, and are just additional things that we're tacking on top of what we've been asked to do. It's on you if you want to, but not really needed. 

5. Ah OK, point taken. But doesn't it just shift the problem. Instead of going down to level 10, you'll just have the exact same problem at 15, or 20 or 30 or... You get the idea. The salt that you talk about from the instagib would still exist, just from a slightly higher level of enemy. The higher level procs (and your vitality mod) makes the 3hp/sec unnoticeable at higher levels, while newbs probably got conditioned to think "health is going to regenerate", so a whole bunch of someones come here screaming about how DE took away their health regen and why should they have to actually manage their own health? 

 

1. I absolutely accept that fact and am merely debating one side of the hypothetical. Of course death shouldn't be absent so that mistakes can be improved upon, but I see a balance perhaps not yet struck for that early experience. Bear in mind that the revives were far less 'free' back in my original newbie period as well. Four per frame per day, unless you paid. That cost has been long obsoleted, of course, but self-revivals are still limited within the mission. Even if I sorely doubt I'm risking all of them for the mission, and even if my gear is maxed and the affinity loss is irrelevant, still doesn't mean I don't dislike a cheap death, right? And that's all the little recovery would be. One less cheap death, and the one new players are most likely to run afoul of.
2. Well, I for one am not calling it impossible by any stretch. Just looking at where the inconsistencies might lie, where the game might not do itself justice in the eyes of someone trying it out afresh.
3. I find the best analogy for the lategame player with regards to energy is the Energy Reduction Sortie modifier. It's there, still, but your regen sources are hamstrung and you can't hold onto as much. Going into those without a plan (and definitely not using Restores!) is pretty much how I figure it feels for new players relying purely on orbs, little mod assistance, and little experience of how best to use what they have.
   I also never liked taxis. Like you say for other things, I always considered them bad precedent. So that leaves a player in their starter until RNG of logins/bounties graces them, or they push up to Ceres (reliable O-cells), and the Void via Phobos (covering the rest of general resources). Without outside advice, players not inclined to be 'tanks' by nature probably have a non-Rhino goal they heard of, or would just stick to their starter, I figure.
4. Yeah, again, not arguing there. It's 'feels-y', but feels can easily sway people. As far as you or I would be affected, we couldn't care less ho many people don't stick with the game, but feedback doesn't have to be self-serving, I'm sure DE wouldn't say no to a bigger player (and potential customer) base.
   I did confirm just now that wild Kubrows drop health orbs. Slightly less limited HP on Earth, then.
5. I notice pretty quickly when someone's got a Rejuv in a pick-up squad, even though it's mostly irrelevant. Abject idiocy aside, I doubt anyone would suggest that it's been "taken away" past the early levels. Besides, as we established, there are enough alternatives to move onto once acquired later. It doesn't need to match progression.
   Remember, the goal isn't to immunise against dying early-game, it's to avoid dying through attrition only. Imagine playing a level ~10 (nonscaling) endless mission having no health regen, 9 million shields, and no opposing toxin damage - you'd be safe from pretty much everything.. except that occasional -1, -1, -1 ticking away because of the incidental slash procs, eventually, eating your not-millions-deep health pool. Small baked-in regen, or health orbs dropped universally, would compensate.

Although it's a later-player benefit, perhaps health orbs being dropped more and (in addition to addressing the attrition problem) making things like Health Conversion and Arcane Pulse usable without 'frame-sourced orbs isn't a bad thing either. Those seem like poor design choices as is.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1, I disagree. 4 lives can be used as an option, not because its a shrug and just die scenario, but because there are going to be times when death and revival are actually the better option if you don't mind the xp loss. You get health and energy restored, and it knocks down the enemies around you. 

I remember reading about people using the operators and lakes in PoE to rapidly teleport back to the gate after bounties. There's also Primed regen + sacrifice. I figure it's like those. Yes it's better in my mind to not die, but if you're willing to, for a reason that serves a purpose, go right ahead. I've been in such scenarios in defence missions where people just left the objective to take shots. 

2. Yeah OK, I'll run with that. But your experience and mine were different. I took my time getting up the map. I was busy doing everything simultaneously. 😅

--

So my Star Chart progress was very stop and go. I later realised how good I had it compared to the people rushing through, even though they may have been more efficient. 

3. It varied. I'd often take my new frames there to learn the basics. (Like taking a spin in a parking lot before hitting the road.) The sentinel with vacuum, was a big factor in making life easier in all cases. I really dislike not having one for the vacuum. 

I'd taken Rhino stripped down by accident (wrong config) and noticed the difference, but was able to keep up the Iron Skin without any significant issues, as long as I wasn't spamming stomp. I think that 10 was the highest in a group of total newbs. Another couple times I made 15 with a "higher" ranked player in the group (usually a Frost) but I would have had different gear each time. 

Iron Skin can be very much set and forget. I think that for 50 energy, it is something close to 1700 points to start with before mods and incoming damage, which is nothing to sniff at in Lith. I could be wrong because all of the times were before it showed the values at the top AFAIK. 

4. No, one option wouldn't be. But pair it with the "I can afford to die and revive a few times if necessary", "I can play with others who can revive me", "If I can kill them before they hurt me much, my shields will take the damage", "If I change the way I play, rolling, moving, I take less damage if I do those special attacks I get to kill them faster" and "oh cool a new mod that makes me Steve Austin: better, stronger, faster!". And who knows what else? At some point we've got to admit that new players aren't the helpless mewing things that they're being made out to be. They're going to be able to learn and advance just like we did. 

And health orbs do drop on Earth missions, depending on what you've killed. Not everything drops them, but you stumble across Grineer shooting at feral Kubrows during the exterminate, kill every last one of them, and you're going to find red orbs dropping. 

5. Doesn't rejuvenation heal a percentage? A percent of little, is less. How significant will that effect be for those who have base health, as opposed to say an Inaros with max vitality? Scattering more orbs like the other suggestion is more likely to help newer players, but at the cost of having to create/rework the enemies, possibly drop tables as well.

 

Show that there would be an actual benefit. I see your point about creating a better impression, but to me it's the same as creating a false impression that the game must be easy. It just shifts the wall that they're about to run into, a little farther down the road. 

1. I don't feel it's a matter of 'better' to have to revive for health - even if it doesn't cost anything to a maxed loadout. It's a very feeling thing. Personal perspectives may differ, but I'm a strange individual for overanalysis. Like in that other thread - I try to consider things objectively where possible, and as many subjective views as I can where necessary. Being in that situation where you're learning, moderately succeeding but die because you can't recover (beside death/revival) when you do make mistakes or take some unfortunate procs seems to me that it wouldn't feel great. Sort of like getting noscope one-shot killed by a highlevel/sortie Ballista before they had their tells.
2. Hey, I understand that. My start to the game was, I think, mostly farming good old Vor for the first week or so before I started pushing deeper into the Star Chart as it was back then. I can't say fairer than that my information is very extrapolated, there's no way to undo my experience even if I were to unmod everything and build an unranked 'frame. But I try to assess as much as I can to get the best estimates.
3. Thanks for the supporting info. It definitely seems like, from the defensible perspective, Rhino is a bit of an outlier in the same way Excalibur is offensively for the early player (per my second-run experience). Add to that the player-experience and it's inarguably better effective in those ways that are difficult to quantify and account for after the fact.
   I also forgot that Rhino's parts are early-available, but resources are not; primarily the need to hit Void for the Systems' required Control Module. It still incites you to push further as a newbie, clearing through Phobos at least, or getting those mid-region resources from lucky Plains bounties.
4. Personally as I said in point 1, the downed/death state within my considerations is the failure state. Reaching that is the point at which I imagine the player, consciously or not, processing the situation and possibly asking themselves if that felt 'fair' to them. Of course I'm not suggesting unmodded players should be able to stand there being shot and never die, but the small recovery would exist mainly to make mistakes impermanent with regards to an eventual possibility of being downed.
   You might be right about Kubrows dropping health orbs, I'll double check on that one that it isn't just the dens. Still, dens only supply so many bat-dogs, so there's still a limit. Higher than old 'standard' tilesets, perhaps enough so.. but only while on Earth.
5. You're getting confused between Rejuv and Physique, I think. Physique is % (base) health pool increase, Rejuv is like Energy Siphon - a flat per-second generation. 3hp/sec, to be exact, which is quite minor by itself. There's also Medi-Ray which is percentile recovery; 12% health regen over 4 seconds with a 15s cooldown (assuming cooldon starts after regen ends, this is 12%/29s = a little over 0.4% per second averaged.)
   I don't think it's much work to throw health orbs into drop tables. There's probably a "general drops" template which gets called upon to throw out ammo and energy orbs, to which health orbs could easily be included in their own seeded category (so as not to reduce the other supplies).
   As I said before, it's less about "don't die" to me than it is "only die for reasons that aren't extended attrition".

 

I can't really show that there's a benefit, because it's just extrapolating that soft-science of psychological 'feel'. But, I know I can get pretty salty _{(especially in competitive)} if I can't identify that there was something I could reasonably do to react once a situation presents itself. Open a door and get instant gibbed by a 0.001-second reaction time enemy? Unreasonable. Procced with more than my HP's worth in slash/toxin (before I could just operator out)? Guess I'll die, thanks game.

It's just a reasoned personal opinion/judgement, here. Welcome to disagree.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1. That's absolutely understandable. However what that means is that the frames, gear, options, health orb drops, and lack thereof isn't the most limiting factor. It's the experience that you get along the way. (Sounds rather cheesy, I admit.) And while a boost to health regen may help the newbs, your experiences clearly indicate that it's not an absolute necessity as the content is fully "survivable". Remember that they get 4 lives per mission, not counting team revives. A part of that early experience is learning that the squad is not just there to steal your glory, but help one another, and of course, "try to avoid dying when possible". 
2. You ran into Moas on Earth? Well a lot must've changed since late February. And yeah, as newer players progress the enemies get do stronger. That's a good lesson isn't it? But remember, the enemies you already killed, dropped some stuff you could go on to equip to make yourself stronger as well. 
3. I've had that said elsewhere. I did an experiment on Lith, which, while hardly definitive showed that I had little trouble using Rhino's Iron Skin ability as well as others without being short on energy. I can't do it anymore because I gave up my Rhino for the Prime, but I might decide to try it again to confirm that the experience hasn't changed much. 
   A part of why I can get by is that I understand better now how Iron Skin works and turn it on when it can do the most good. That's probably experience improving gameplay again, rather than gear, or any tweak to the health drops. 
4. No, it's more of a "first choice". Or maybe second because you highlighted another option, wherein the player can choose to modify how they play to increase survivorship. 
   Also remember, as you kill more stuff faster, you also get more drops while the enemy is not getting more time to shoot at you. Kill rate correlates to drops, and thus to health gain per second. 
5. I agree with both and have chosen to use the options for shield regen on several of my frames and sentinels. My issue is that I don't see the necessity of changing the baseline, in a way that would boost more experienced players, and while an enemy that drops a few extra health orbs is an interesting idea, I don't see why they should create and integrate a new system that's not currently needed.

1. Naturally, the experience is the primary factor. But if I can look at myself not being perfectly proof against death despite my thousands-hours veterancy (not to 'pull rank' on you - but as a quantifier vs. the newbies) and look for causes in that context plus recollections of times past (mostly pre-Medi-Ray) it's easy for me to identify that 'attrition' issue of gradual but inevitable demise. Not everyone wants to play in a squad (and not just for those reasons you and I butted heads on before), nor should they feel like they have to, and for those.. well, 4 revives is their limit, so ideally we'd only want them using one to learn, not as a memetic "guess i'll die" reaction.
2. Like I said - 'new players' to me carries long past the first couple of junctions. In my experiment, under ideals, the stopgaps were MR and constructing certain things - which puts a limit at around Saturn's area at the least. There and between, players have to encounter all sorts of factions and are pushing into Elite variants. In particular due to MR, a player's got to push through a sizable count of weapons too - this and general credit/endo supply limits how much those drops actually get to do. Here, too, experience is a huge asset, in judging what to build, what mods to invest and (due to budgeting) how much.
3. Interesting. Mind if I ask the other extenuating factors? Such as, affecting Mods, target wave for your experiment to reach, squad/nonsquad play and (if squad) whether those were similarly or vastly better equipped? Certainly your own experience is relevant, but .. well, going into a mobile defense Sortie can be a risky business even as Frost when alone (unless you've got energy generation to cast lots of a well-modded-for Avalanche). That may sound tangential, but it comes around to how ideal individual factors can still be weighed down by the rest.
4. This and the previous point are intertwined somewhat, so mostly following the thought process: It's possible that Rhino is anomalously viable among the earliest options due to the persistence of the Skin. Others are largely one-and-done affairs; in the case of CC in particular, new arrivals are of course completely unaffected. One good option is not the same as adequate options, though - again, in the specific new-player case before those other options do start to arrive.
   I'm not sure how you correlated kills and health gain given previous assertions tht enemies don't drop health orbs, unless you were inferring the energy gain for healers/more Iron Skin.
5. It's certainly not an absolute necessity, as I said. In no way is this objective need. But it could definitely improve the feeling - nobody wants to feel like failure is completely out of their hands, albeit a temporary one until your buddies pick you up or you Revive. I hardly think adding one Rejuvenation's worth baseline would do much for later players, but it could be a subtle yet valuable benefit for those first finding their feet.
   Energy much the same - one Energy Siphon is rarely huge, but it'd be a nice starter to let newbies feel out their abilities without feeling like they wasted a semi-irreplaceable resource. A couple health per second, an energy point every couple seconds, just.. the little things.

Of course, it wouldn't be 'new system' at all for this little. Just applying effects that are already there - baked energy generation exists in Archwings, odds are good that health and a lesser amount of energy couple be baked into all frames the same way.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1. Congratulations on somehow managing to survive the new user experience, more than once! Thank you for providing proof that players somehow manage to do it under the current system. Obviously they've been considered otherwise they would have all been stuck in the perpetual cycle of "certain doooooooom!!!1!" the way that others on this thread seem to be suggesting. 
2. Some how you seem to have forgotten that while the players are barely modded, the weaker enemies are also easier to kill. While some may believe this to be accidental, it's not. It provides balance to the game and explains why higher level content is gated. 
3. And yes Rhino's abilities cost energy. But that's, once again what's commonly known as a trade off/opportunity cost. And here's something that you may have forgotten, that first sentinel who helps us to vacuum up additional energy (and health)... You remember when you gained access to that? 
4. Now, I don't know about you, but nobody forced me to use Rhino. And I've never discarded a frame until I got the Prime. I continued to use Excal long after I got my Rhino. Part of the reason is that as I progressed I got new mods, new gear, new frames, and new options. I have trouble believing that your experience, either of them, was significantly different.
5. And yes, the line about the best defense is true. I was pointing out that the comment preceeding it, which was another way of saying what I responded to was what you might describe as a "blatantly obvious" statement. I'm surprised that you missed that. Maybe I should have wrapped it around a larger brick? But thank you for agreeing, in detail, that it applies.

I'll just number-itemise, because the day has been too long to mess around unboxing individual points.

1. It's certainly survivable, but in doing so alongside others I can see where my experience made it much easier in my second time than it is currently as someone's first. Bear in mind my first was under damage 1.0 and all that past, so it's barely comparable at all; my genuine-newbie compatriots had a whole lot of death and, in not being exempt from a drop or two myself, I can still identify where the shortfalls are - where bad tastes can be left in the mouths of new players that a light baseline regen might absolve.
2. I haven't missed this. I specifically addressed it. Even low enemies can break through shields, even low enemies can proc, and it's rather easy to progress past those Level 3 Lancers while still being objectively within the 'new' category. I'm not sure when you started, but incoming damage is, and ramps up, much more so than it used to in the past. Right down to Moas, Troopers and Elite Lancers; some casualties of balancing player weapons without properly separating them from enemy damage profiles.
3. I spoke under the assumption that what drops is picked up, Vacuumed or otherwise. Health orbs don't except from one-time opportunities (containers and lockers). Energy is available on-kill - but kills are generally slower/fewer, each point of energy worth far less for players without their Strength/Range/Duration and especially Efficiency stat mods. Rhino was a specific mention of yours, but a fair one due to early availability and one of the more effective abilities for our context.
4. However, for a new player with 2-4 slots, asking them to either A) Die cheaply or B) use Rhino is a false choice. It's indirect coercion, 'forcing' in a not-quite-literal sense (semantics). There's room for improvement to promote flexibility without it being at the expense of the underequipped player's experience - especially when Excalibur's 'best defence' of superior damage output is so much more productive anyway (perhaps excessively so, leading to so many mindless Swish-Swish players).
5. I admit I largely skimmed the post I was quoting and didn't dig into the preceding context. I thought you were employing incredulous sarcasm in disagreement, not lampooning the obvious. It's an indirect relationship that could be interpreted to support either way; 'defense is near-useless anyway so adding better baseline is already futile' vs. 'this is why defense is unusable so it should be improved at base to make it as reliable as offense'.

There's subjectivity in both camps in regards to the genuine 'have-not' playerbase, but I'd say there are objectively enough health sources for the lategame player. _{Shields could use a beast-generic Protect to round out the resupply options, though.}

It's always an interesting sight to have Life Strike almost deified when I've never used it at all.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Literally only a brand new player can be expected to have no options. This is common and also explains the low level of enemies in the starter zone. They are expected to "play the game, and advance" gaining more options along the way. If you can't grasp these concepts then you can try to argue "what if they don't have any options" but you probably won't be able to grasp most of the concepts in the game.

The enemy can't hurt you if they're all dead? Next you'll claim that the best defense is "a good offense". Either way, if it makes health regeneration as a whole unnecessary, then what you are claiming is necessary, really isn't. Because you have options that include "just don't make bad choices". 

New players - and yes we're talking about brand new players again aren't we - start in the starter zone facing single digit level enemies, so their minimal health regeneration needs are met by the game in various ways. So your claims which require a single specific scenario to hold any validity are spurious and can be ignored, because those are not the players who will be facing off against level 35+ enemies. As they play they can unlock all of the above and will require them and good judgment to survive. Your ability to follow a link and find all of those options suggests that it's documented quite nicely. 

Again, are you sure that you are familiar with the new player experience? I suggested that you go back and give it a try, but you didn't seem to take it seriously. Perhaps you should?

Hey, it's you. Let me just pull a few specifics from this segment I've extricated.

"Are you familiar with the new player experience?"

Yes - I've replayed under a new account with strictly no assistance. Even been the assistance to other actual newbies in spite of the lack of gear, which adds some fresh perspective.

"Only brand new players have no options"

Yes - but they should be considered too. As per my previous in this thread, they (now) have access to shielded gameplay long before health OR energy can be reliable. But this carries with it the attrition problem. Every slash proc, every Infested dealing toxin damage, every time they're in over their head and shields get depleted is effectively a permanent hit to survival.

"New players don't have to worry about it because X"

X = Enemy levels/quantity

Even low-level enemies can inflict status. The slash procs may not be much, but they're there and they add up. Single-digit levels expire long before being a 'new player' and access to resources improve. These players are barely modded for extra health or damage, so they're both more exposed (longer time-to-kill per enemy) and more susceptible (lesser health pool) to health attrition. This shows especially in endless missions (even as little as reaching a B rotation), and doubly so when it's a Defense. With nothing protecting the pod and high times-to-kill, fresh players can easily end up needing to face-tank to hold attention.

X = Rhino/abilities

These abilities require energy. Energy is a luxury until a source of generation or mods make the effect-per-energy much greater. Even if Rhino's good enough - if a new player is forced into a specific warframe, when they have extremely limited slots, then that suggests a flaw in the baseline of the game. Small regenerations would go a long way to (health) not requiring Iron Skin, or (energy) to use Iron Skin or CC abilities which also deal with the threat issue more reliably.

"Next you'll claim the best defense is a good offense"

Actually, this is 100% truth in the early stages of the game right now. Later on you can - sometims must - beef up tankiness or use stealth to avoid everything outright, but early on it's a toe-to-toe battle, and until you accumulate and rank up your mods, as a general rule your defense is absolutely reliant on your offensive capacity not putting you at risk of losing that battle of attrition on your limited pool of health.

This is from my aforementioned experience replaying from scratch:
Melee annihilates gunplay starting from zero mods and MK-1 gear (especially if you chose the Bo to start due to better reach/area). Excalibur's Exalted Blade is far-and-away more effective than basic weaponry or the other starter-frame abilities. With it (and if RNG provided enough energy, Blind to get the bonus multiplier on top), you can go from fresh account up through as many junctions as you can before MR and construction times slow you down, and experience minimal resistance. Even with the limited energy supplies, it's just no contest.

Sure, you could try Iron Skin tanking. But if you still take an eternity per enemy, they'll get through it sooner than they drop enough energy orbs to let you re-cast.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

41 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

...yeah, while I agree there could be such a concern, I've never actually seen it. I get the feeling it actually balances it out, because:

• All of the Starter Warframes have abilities that generally negate or reduce damage, on top of having pretty good survival stats
• Every Time they rank up, they get an instant health and energy restore, and a new player is going to be ranking up for doing pretty much anything
• Self-Healing restores are dropped on Capture missions, so even new players can get those for instant healing, if they need them
• Perhaps it's just pseudo-observation, but I feel like health and energy orbs drop more from low rank enemies, so in the early game, it doesn't seem like you'll be short on any of those resources, especially if you're looting everything.

I get where you're coming from, but I really think new players have all the mechanics at their disposal to stay alive as well, without convenient mechanics.

Insofar as I've noticed, health orbs exclusively drop from containers except where other mechanics cause them to be generated. That's one possible change that would probably mean the world for newbies (and make Health Conversion usable for 'frames that don't generate the damn things).

Even with the rank-up filling resources, I find energy is pretty noticeably limited in the early stages of a Warframe career - not only because of the lack of non-orb generation but because the effect of each use is also slashed compared to what we later players come to expect. Ranks thin out over time, too, easily long before access to later resources starts to improve.

Lack of ranked mods also applies in every other respect. Less of those buffering shield/health pools (plus lack of the former putting extra strain on the latter), less output (more time to kill) so more time being shot at. I've been through the game afresh alongside actual new players; it's difficult to articulate in words how familiarity and experience makes life inarguably easier, but the limitations are definitely still noticeable to the point where that veterancy wasn't even enough to compensate as reliably as I'd like. _{Though I suppose some of that could be chalked up to being tricked by muscle memory of later mechanics and mod-for-mod effectiveness, too.}

 

Even as a veteran, life before Medi-Ray (as someone who never used Life Strike) and before War Within brought everyone the reliable fallback option of temporary godmode was a very different experience when in nontrivial content and when levelling fresh things - especially since that's before we got to have MR-baseline mod capacity too.

Nothing sucked quite like getting lucky slash-procced by an Eviscerator and seeing fat 100+ health ticks bleed you out when (lifestrike notwithstanding) you had nearly no way to recover for the next one.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

27 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

The game should not be convenient for you when using the wrong equipment for certain game-play, in fact it's generous enough that DE has even given you countless options for covering such vulnerabilities with other game mechanics.

...though, seeing the other perspectives of this thread, I imagine this is the unpopular opinion, but I just don't see this as a problem.

I only see it as a problem in the cases where all the options aren't even available - newer players. From that perspective I can see an argument for a small baseline of regeneration.

I'd argue much the same for energy. Not enough to obsolete the current options for management which range from acceptable to trivialising, but nonzero enough that even new players don't have to live solely from orb to orb (bad RNG uncertainty).

Both are easily circumvented later, agreed - but even as little as a single baked-in Rejuvenation and Energy Siphon amount would make the introductory phase of the game so much better.

[The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay]

I would agree that small base health regeneration should be present from the start, or that health orbs actually... drop from enemies, without needing to stimulate them by other means, instead of only from containers.

 

However, I would disagree that shields are useless. Even progressing later into the game - with the exception of Sorties with enhancements (especially slash and toxin) which instantly put enemies absurdly out-of-curve for damage output - I am capable of relying primarily on my shields if I use them correctly. A more detailed overview of my assessment is below for anyone interested:

Spoiler

Using shields at a baseline requires:

1. Modding for the capacity. Obviously.
2. Modding for (some) health to act as a satisfactory buffer amount until,
3. Appropriately reacting when shields become depleted or under threat of bypass.

This is the baseline requirement. Early damage doesn't trouble harshly enough to cut through that apt health buffer until the situation can be readdressed.

Point 3 is the contention - besides the knowledges of avoiding Toxin and mitigating status damage with rolling in time with the ticks, the problem is finding ways to continue engaging while allowing that shield to replenish uninterrupted.

This leads onto the extended shield tactics to carry more dangerous fare:

1. Getting a bulk restoration source, in whole (e.g. Guardian) or part (restoration from abilities)
2. Having some manner of health replenishment so that the buffer isn't an ever-decreasing time limit on inevitable death.
3. Operating multiple gameplay styles depending on your shield resources.

Notably, everyone is allowed a Sentinel from early on now, so even newbies get to satisfy point 1. Doubly so thanks to the Taxon being made for this.

Point 3 is a matter of 'learning the game' as with the point 3 for basics. If you're using Guardian, you know there's a cooldown. So your shield pops in the first instance - your reaction doesn't need to be "hide and wait for a recharge" any more, but it does mean that you have to try to be more cautious so that you don't start eating your health buffer rather than it just soaking the small window before Guardian triggers, until the cooldown is up.

Point 2, of course, is the core of the thread here, and is why I say that I agree with OP in terms of health replenishment at the baseline level. Newer players typically have, at best, point 1 OR point 2 covered. Marrying both only comes later - once they reach Sedna and Medi-Ray is acquired, or by using exactly a Raksa Kubrow (to have the Guardian-analogue) and getting hold of Hunter Recovery.

 

 

TL;DR: Access to replenishing health in any reliable capacity requires ability- or (late) mod/arcane-specific options. Otherwise, if fortunate, a newer player might happen to pick up a Rejuvenation aura. Without any of this, as I said above, Shields are only as good as delaying the inevitable from errant procs and crisis moments where they get depleted. So something, even if it's just making a single Rejuvenation's worth of regen baseline is required to smooth shield use out for the early to mid game.

 

Personally, if Raksa Kubrows got a new Precept and Protect was made a general BEAST category mod, I think I would be safe from 95% of potential deaths from regular content. My only current shortfall is being too lazy to switch back to sentinels after I've been using my Smeeta.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

15 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I doubt you could actually check this in any way since this bug was patched before the latests changes was made to stasis, so unless you have a time machine somewhere i dont think you could test it.

This bug was live for a week if i remember right but it created an overpowered maximum defense system for limbo, so it was not suprising they fixed it.

The problem is that the bug highlighted some pretty strange system on how could DE made the rift work.

Im not sure when it was a thing but i remember i had some fun throwing a glaive into the bullet mincing up dudes, it might have been patched i dont know.

My mistake, I thought you were saying that the Rift and Cataclysm in general still worked in all those ways. Still, perhaps they rewrote it to be more streamlined and remove all such bugginess with an approach more along what I imagined (or perhaps not, we can't say).

 

I don't recall glaives being any different before, since I'm certain (from testing the rework when it was fresh) the Magnetise hit logic was derived from Nullifier shields, and at that point you could toss Glaives through Nullifier shields with impunity.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I believe DE uses some horribly complicated system for the rift mechanic based on a bug what was active before his latest revork.

Long story short the rift mechanics were changed to work like the following:

1. Projectiles fired inside cataclysm could leave it and damage enemies outside of it but were unable to deal any damage to enemies inside the rift.
2. Hitscan weapons fired inside cataclysm were unable to leave the bubble but could damage everything inside it.
3. Projectile weapons from outside couldnt enter the rift bubble as the bubble acted like a wall.
4. Hitscan weapons from the outside could enter the rift bubble but couldnt deal any damage.
5. A player in the rift can damage enemies from the outside of the bubble with melee or projectile weapons when they were in the bubble but not with hitscan weapons.
6. Banished enemies could damage enemies from the inside of the bubble but projectiles were unable to deal damage to them.

This paints a pretty scary image of just how rules were set up to make the rift state work.

The problem here is the IF statement. As you stated the matchmake could not work at all and soo on but these problems arise when it works and you want to use up your skills on your teammates but they are vetoed your buffs.

Im pretty sure this is a confirmed bug because i remember my glavies turning my bubbles into blenders.

That's a pretty bleak picture, but I'm not convinced those are accurate. I might try to verify some later if I'm able to on my own in the Simulacrum.

Sensible applications should allow a backreference to the source of a hitscan call or projectile object so that things like faction relationships can be checked (you could think of the "no interaction" as if differing Rift states are equivalent to friendly factions - not a 0-damage hit, but as if no impact was made at all). Radiation/Confusion, Crossfire missions and enemy vs. player are all faction relationships causing a need to know about the state of the attack's source unit.

Another good check we players could try for this being possible is whether a projectile in the air inherits stat changes that occurred between trigger pull and impact (negative flight speed rivens would make this easier on timing). If it does, then there's certainly a reference back to the source, which could extend to a player's opt-out.

 

For the 'IF' - yes, the problems also exist if your team has opted out of your buffs, the point is that there is already no guarantee that you will affect anyone due to range/matchmaking server shenanigans/etc. Also, in reality it isn't likely that most options that could be available would be used consistently enough to worry about. 99% of the time, someone will want a damage/defense buff, for instance, but that might decrease to ~75% of people for the types of influence DE already identifies as possibly undesirable enough to provide 'undo' movements for (e.g. Speed/Rift).

Many of those come with additional functions - Rift energy regen could be considered separate to the hit detections, and there's the obvious Attack Speed aspect for Volt - which are in the probably-desirable categories, so if the opt-out functions by individual effect, there would be merit in using the abilities for your allies still.

Sure, if they're opted out, you might be down some mod capacity, but from your perspective it's only ever bringing you back to the effectiveness you can guarantee - how it applies to yourself.

 

I'll check glaives in Attractors too - I may have extrapolated from Gunblades too much and gotten mixed up with the way both pierced Nullifier bubbles once upon a time.

 

EDIT: Checks made, results are in:

- Glaives do ignore Mag's Bullet Attraction.

- As long as enemies outside a Cataclysm are Banished (In Rift), both projectiles and hitscan successfully hit from a player standing inside Cataclysm shooting out at enemies beyond Cataclysm

- As long as player was Banished/In Rift, both projectiles and hitscan successfully hit enemies within Cataclysm from player standing outside Cataclysm.

BONUS TEST:

- Gunblades and Glaives (tested separately) also pass all checks (instead of operating differently as they do with Bullet Attractors).

 

Seems like the game operates close enough to my assumption, at least by now.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

On 2018-10-21 at 5:13 AM, Hyohakusha said:

This was already addressed. Backflipping out of Volt's speed boost is DE's answer. A while back, they changed his 2 to drop a small coil/ spring that would add the buff to whoever picked it up. Many people, myself included, hated that. So they changed it to cancel out on a backflip.

Aiming, hitting back and tapping roll isn't difficult. It's not an interruption to the flow of gameplay. If you want to move forward with the backflip, turn around before you flip. You can always form your own squad if you don't want to play with Volt's. If you don't like forming a group, you can always play solo.

Arguing with people isn't going to accomplish anything, and neither is using overcomplicated sentences to try and push your point harder. Especially when it's something DE's already changed twice.

The backflip preceded that particular change, yet I found that pickup mechanic to be better for me, yet still imperfect because the Volt could simply place it in an unavoidable location anyway.

Obviously, nobody wants to change what they're comfortable with, but that applies to both parties. The moment that buff is applied, it's causing an impact. It causes any in-progress parkour to carry more momentum. It forces the backflip, which is an additional consideration a player must address that would not be present without the buff being applied, therefore an interference on some level - no matter how little it may seem to those like yourself who do not feel the need to do so.

Please refrain from repeating the same empty comments that others have already brought as 'counterpoints'. It is wanting to be able to play with Volts that requires a better approach - and segregation (any limitation for publicly matchmade games) is not a valid solution either way.

I'm sorry that you find my sentences overcomplicated, but just look at the deliberate trollbait that happens when something can be deliberately interpreted wrong (or outright misquoted to assert a false claim). It's how I phrase when I have the time to think. I'm happy to clarify and provide examples if something is unclear.

 

20 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

That would require a selective programming where the enemies get you flagged as shootable target inside and outside the rift, while you also get flagged as someone who can shoot inside and outside of the rift.

It also needs the reprogramming of cataclysm bubbles wall to make sure when you are flagged enemies can shoot at you throught the bubble interdimensionally without damaging anything else interdimensionally and the same has to be done for you too.

Im not a programmer myself, but i modded some easy games to fit my needs by altering their setups and this change sounds like some nightmare to create.

But the problem with alternate solutions in itself can negatively impact others gameplay.

Volt is an easy target for this discussion because his skill hurts more than what positives it grants but we need to think globally.

Harrow as i said if he gets his buff vetoed, that negatively impacts the users gameplay.

Nyx mindcontrol can be opted out but that replicates the issue on revenant.

Revenants reave could be opted out what results in wasted energy.

Nidus and his paracistic link could be vetoed what results in losing p.strenght.

Mirage eclipse augment if vetoed equals with a wasted mod slot.

Mesas flash augment if vetoed is once again a wasted mod slot.

Mag bubbles when vetoed create some horribly unbalanced effects.

And soo on, i could probably list these for another 10 line but i gotta go work now.

 

Barring a little redundancy, this is a refreshing post trying to actually identify what caveats the suggestion might have/cause. Thanks.

That said: selective programming like what? A would-be HIT event is detected. Rift states are checked when deciding whether to move onto inflicting damage. It's one more line in the IF statement to reference something else - just like how a damaging ability can ignore the state of the Rift.

It's my opinion that you're overthinking the Rift mechanic. If it was half as involved as you seem to believe, then I imagine in all likelihood the game would barely function once a Cataclysm was out. Granted, I know as much as you about the raw code-behind DE has in place, but... I'd like to believe a core mechanic of a certain 'frame is not surviving in a horribly unoptimised state.

 

Regarding the rest:

In general, you can never expect in a public matchmade game that your allies will see gainful effects, or perform as you might expect from your abilities. You don't even have any guarantee the system will put someone in there at all, they could all be far beyond range, or they could be spawn AFKers.

As previously mentioned, Harrow players can only guarantee that damage absorbed themselves will contribute to Covenant. Squadmates could be off in corners, or otherwise not take a hit. This is no different to opting-out.

Nyx's mindcontrol is an enemy-effect and isn't covered by opting out of things that affect the state and stats of a player.

Reave - i'm assuming the granting of a Mesmer Skin charge to allies is the context - still allows you to perform its function against enemies. You might just have nobody in the path currently.

Nidus' link, again, still allows you to link to enemies, and Nidus would receive the strength of the allied link. The buff remains, but it's an effective 0% bonus on someone opted out for that stat.

Augments that extend stat-boosting effects to allies are of no use when the allies are not nearby either (or were never added to a mission by the system). That's just an implicit tradeoff of those augments, to provide the potential at the risk of that potential, yes, becoming wasted.

Mag bubbles and other attractors are probably the most hypothetical of all things I have suggested to be covered in this system. But a bad Mag (or just one unfortunately screwed by a teleporting enemy during the cast time) can make a miserable situation for everyone. It would be nice to avoid this. But remember: Gunblades and glaives are already bullets/projectiles that ignore Attractors. Perhaps these aren't the strongest weapon options, but they set a precedent.

 

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

On 2018-10-20 at 6:53 PM, ikkabotz said:

How would you veto the buff without really interrupting gameplay though?

In the simplest terms: Player has a setting menu associated. When the game attempts to apply an effect to player from an allied source, these settings are checked for conflicts. If detected, don't apply unwanted effect.

 

On 2018-10-20 at 7:53 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

But who should be the one who decide whenever you go with scarring or stiching, the doctor or the patient?

 

Dont get me wrong i know just how bad could be volt's speed buff but at the same time you cant really do anything.

You either go with the option what makes you immune to his buff or change the backflip madness into something reasonable. The later one is not an option because consoles have limited number of keys but introducing the first one would most surely cause more salt as people would ask for even more skills to be able to opt out to the level where you might aswell play solo.

Just for an example i frequently see limbo and his mechanics in these threads and it gets me thinking on just how the hell would DE turn this skill opt-out without breaking limbo OR there is harrow who depends on damage absorbed to get the crit buff IF people decide to opt out of that harrow users get upset because now you are the one who negatively affect their gameplay.

Everything falls back the failed coop promise of the game where in this case you supposedly tell the volt to not use speed and he doesnt use it.

The medical analogy is a bit of a mix in that regard. Recommendations can be given but it often falls on the patient's consent. So the patient (player) could choose to heal naturally (accept the buff and backflip as necessary), or they could choose to take the more potent option of stitching until healed better (the option of pre-emptive avoidance).

Limbo isn't broken by this any more than others; the Limbo's field control will always be felt by themselves in what they can and cannot attack/be attacked by (and stasis is still a universal CC option). Other players have the options of making use of both benefits and drawbacks of Rift-state immunities by subjecting themselves to Banishment/dash residue/Cataclysms or just avoiding the drawbacks at the cost of the benefits.

Is it really more co-operative to stoke the fire of personal differences in opinions by either forcing Volt to comply or Volt forcing others to comply, if an alternative solution could be provided that suits both sides at once? I believe not.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

 

On 2018-10-20 at 5:04 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Meanwhile in yugioh yata-garasu is still banned because the cards wording cannot be changed and you cant add a rule to it what in turn makes it less broken.

Warframe in itself is more like yugioh, where wordings were created in a way to ensure nothing else can be promted out of a card than what it says exactly.

When a volt casts speed he is the one who decides if the buff should go on or not. "This effect may apply IF you want it".

The other players get the following ruling "You gain movement speed bonus IF volt wants it".

DE is not gonna change the way of the buffing because of two things:

1. This game is coop (or they think so), just communicate
2. Buffs are only dependant on the caster and not on allies (this is enforcing the first point)

You can only ask for one thing because you are currently going for the impossible which is to ask DE to make Volts speed buff either do something else or affect teammates differently.

I'm not exactly in the know of 'professional' tier play for Yu-Gi-Oh but as I understand it, there are still things that are restricted and banned due to their unreasonable impacts. Wording isn't often changed as much as rulings are made for MtG to deal with ambiguity and cases where the way two effects interact is not immediately obvious. "May" effect is not a wording change, but an identifier that you are invited rather than obligated to the effect.

But your comments aren't wrong in that the game operates currently such that one is beholden to their teammates.

The point of the thread is to debate whether one should be beholden to their (not necessarily vetted) teammates in such a way that can negatively impact the gameplay experience.

Additionally, since identifying a problem is less helpful by itself, I have suggested a strong resolution that does not negatively impact the people using the buff or wanting the buff in order to preserve and maximise the enjoyment of all points of view.

 

To analogise; you are failing to identify why stitching a wound is a bad idea just because it can be allowed to heal through existing means (with scarring).

Current resolutions are unreasonable (no public play) or inadequate (repeatedly performing mandatory cleansing actions) and therefore a superior option is being suggested.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

On 2018-10-19 at 12:25 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

You cant just go and opt out from different mechanisms simply because they were not created that way. Think of it in the following sceniario:

You have a nyx tank build with the aggro shield mod. The nyx draws the aggro and you the guy who opted out of nyx absortion now have a free pass to murder everything without taking any damage since the nyx takes in shots while you can safely hide in the bubble without any worry of taking damage.

Have you perhaps noticed that plenty of collectible card games have revisions and a ton of rulings on edge-cases that just slipped consideration in the initial rule set and design?

Warframe is not Solitaire.

This is a living, updating game, not a printed set. Of course you could change the cards - the ill-fated change to a picked up Volt Speed, for example - but I'm asking more for a change on the ruling to avoid stepping on allied toes.

It's like Magic: The Gathering cards with wording such that you "may apply <effect>".  You don't have to if it would be unwanted. Take this card for example:

Whenever Academy Raider deals combat damage to a player, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.

You deal damage with the creature. This is Effect 1. We'll call this "gain attack speed from Volt's Speed ability".

You can discard a card to draw a new one. This is Effect 2. We'll call this "gain movement speed from Volt's Speed ability".

As you can clearly see, it's absolutely normal in a more complex card game to want Effect 1 with the option to not apply Effect 2 in situations where it would not serve the recipient's purpose.

MTG being usually 1v1, this card is in the frame of a self-inflicted effect. But you can extrapolate easily enough to how an effect that targets 'all allies' would also bear this permission to opt out in certain desired cases.

 

On 2018-10-19 at 4:26 PM, Dabnician said:

^This

And because of people not being able to basically do this i had to jump though all sorts of hoops to pop a level 30+ mobs riven with 0 damage to a defense target. i was thinking man it use to be cool when cataclysm Stopped bullets....

I literally had some limbo last night on xbox banishing me left and right in a mission, dodge right out like nothing and move on. dude doesnt have a clan i can see why.

Form a team, play solo or accept what happens in PUGs. This applies to literally every game from everquest to dayz to warframe to black ocean online.

I popped an identical riven last night. Vauban tossing out a few Bastilles per wave on Sechura (with energy regen courtesy of my Zenurik school) made it simple enough. Don't worry about bullets when it's Infested.

Your idealism still forms no concrete argument besides "no u". I can cite out things like being able to cancel a buff early, and especially the Neural Silencer item in World of Warcraft as examples of the desired ability to control what potentially unwanted interference random allies inflict on you.

You obviously were adversely affected by the mentioned Limbo player if that mission, among however many others, became memorable. You even checked his profile to validate your negative experience. Why then do you disagree with nipping these things in the bud?

 

On 2018-10-20 at 12:26 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh that's not true at all. I've bounced in odd ways off of the wall while bullet jumping. It's affected how I played, and then I remember that I know that I can wall jump on the mass vitrify and blame myself. 

 

Because that's the only person I have to blame for going in a public match, and for not adapting to what is in front of me. 

It's something that some people don't really get, it seems. 

The context was in terms of shooting through the wall from either side, which to my knowledge has always been possible for Mass Vitrify. Bouncing off things oddly does just happen when parkouring in general sometimes; I've wall-hopped off my own sentinel or rescue targets before.

See also: being able to walk through an Atlas deployable instead of being entirely prevented from going into whatever corridor the player blocked off.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

30 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Yes, but this entire conversation is based on the idea that you do take damage to get the Rage effect, because you're opting out of Covenant's damage mitigation explicitly for that purpose.

You can't say that there is no difference because the entire basis of this argument is that there is one.

 

Except they are entirely relevant because that's an essential factor of how DE balances the effects of CC.

One CC can only control a fixed amount of targets because there is no other influence on that ability, the other can control unlimited amounts of targets because they are being primed by another ability as a state of being.

This is a key aspect of how CC abilities balance against each other, and by introducing a factor like being able to opt out of the priming stage, or the Rift, you are breaking that balance.

But your initial argument was that you should not get Covenant Retaliation because you're not contributing to Covenant mitigations.

This is why your entire basis is a flawed foundation.

You do take damage to get the Rage effect when you opt out of invulnerability. This ensures that no exploit of gaining energy from 'ignored' damage exists.

You do not contribute to Retaliation strength when you opt out of invulnerability. This ensures that no exploit of fueling higher crit chance buffs with damage that has not been mitigated exists.

Therefore, the result is balanced and fair. Effect on drawbacks is matched with effect on benefits in both distinct entities.

 

Regarding the CC, we're still deep in fallacy here. I can't tell if this is goalpost-moving, strawman or texas sharpshooter at this point. Perhaps all.

The pertinent information is thus:

1. Under what circumstances can PLAYER shoot AFFECTED TARGET?
2. What restrictions is an AFFECTED TARGET subject to?

When rift state is ignored by a player with regards to option 1, Bastille and Stasis operate identically in this context.

In all cases for option 2, Bastille and Stasis operate identically (complete inaction).

In both ally-ignoring and non-ignoring cases for the Rift State, the circumstances in which a target BECOMES affected do not change for Stasis: IF RIFT = TRUE.

I could also argue that Limbo is less strong because his area of effect is singular (if Cata-Stasis) and consistently shrinking, whereas Vauban's Bastilles remain at their full size for the entire duration and can be placed in multiple areas at once.

But that's irrelevant to the two factors that matter for the context. The CC effect is identical; a player's ability to shoot the target is worse in the case of current Stasis but would become identical to Bastille in a Rift State opt-out case.

Therefore, Bastille must be an exploit if allowing anyone to shoot a Stasis target is an exploit.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

And this is mostly nonsense because you're equations fail to take into account the additional effects caused by these things.

If contribution = 0 on Covenant and you still get the result of Covenant, you do not currently also still get the result of Rage, or chances at Arcane Grace or similar functions that come off Damage Taken.

Under your current, you would get the results of Covenenant, even in a reduced capacity, plus the results of functions that allow you to take damage. That is the exploit.

The same being said of the Vauban/Limbo equation, because the CC offered by Bastille and the CC offered by Stasis are not equal.

You're now making completely false equivalences and trying to hide them in mathematics.

I'm sorry but no.

Unequivocally no.

 

COVENANT RETALIATION is not predicated on COVENANT CONTRIBUTION > 0.

The Covenant expression is that you can receive a Retaliation effect regardless of the contributions you provide.

RAGE ENERGY is predicated on DAMAGE TAKEN > 0

The Rage expression is that you do not receive energy if you do not take damage.

You cannot conflate the two to suit your overall argument. They are two completely different equations and neither are violated by opting out of Covenant Invulnerability.

COV:

No invulnerability = C.CONTRIB = 0; C.RETAL = C.CONTRIB + (SQUAD CONTRIBUTIONS)

Invulnerability = C.CONTRIB >= 0; C.RETAL = C.CONTRIB + (SQUAD CONTRIBUTIONS)

RAGE:

No invulnerability = DAMAGE_TAKEN >= 0; RAGE_ENERGY = (DAMAGE_TAKEN * RAGE%)

Invulnerability = DAMAGE_TAKEN = 0; RAGE_ENERGY = (DAMAGE_TAKEN * RAGE%)

Everything is still within standard operating practice. The independant equations remain equivalent.

 

Bastille's CC is equivalent to Stasis CC (rift-state ignored).

Both completely paralyse a target (or targets).

Both allow the affected targets to be attacked by all opposition.

Target count and duration are not relevant to the functionality of the control effect.

Therefore, ignoring Rift State of targets under Stasis is NOT an exploit if using Bastille ever is not also an exploit.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

3 minutes ago, BloodAppraiser said:

Can't we just get a customizable match-making filter and problem solved? 🤔

= reducing the pool of viable matchmade sessions = diluting the playerbase = literally more of a problem.

 

But honestly, how would you make a binding contract of matchmaking that lets someone play alongside Volts only if the Volt isn't going to throw Speed buffs at them? I've got no problem with Shock, Electric Shield or Discharge, or them Speeding themselves up for that matter.

Any matchmaking 'solution' is 100% guaranteed inferior to this.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You're presuming that this wasn't the intended consequence of using a powerful ability.

No, but it clearly is predicated on receiving the initial effect. If you do not receive the initial effect, you cannot receive of the secondary. Opting out of the initial effect would, and should, prevent the secondary effect.

But in exactly the same way, the CC is purely a state that exists because of the primary state. Effect following on directly from an effect. You cannot Stasis enemies that are outside of the Rift.

If you do not receive the primary effect, you cannot, and should not, be able to exploit the secondary.

The argument is there for Warframe Abilities, because these are designed to affect enemies in either state for balance and anti-griefing. However, all physical attacks, such as weapons, are prevented if the enemy is in the opposite plane to you.

If you opt out of the Rift in the current method, by rolling, you cannot interact with enemies within it using non-ability means, and the same should be true of opting out via a global toggle.

And this is because you are gaining the advantages of a secondary effect without being subject to the primary, which is the rule for receiving the secondary effect under any other circumstances.

Vauban is not the same, as the primary, and only, effect of his ability is CC. There is no conditional function on it other than a limit to how many enemies it can hold, that being one of the other ways to balance a CC ability along with Duration or cost.

Since there is no conditional effect necessary to use Bastille, the comparison simply doesn't work.

A better comparison would be a theoretical. If, say, Nyx used Chaos, which in this setup turned all enemies in a radius into friendly units that attacked each other, and not you, marking them all invulnerable to friendly fire for the duration unless Nyx cast a secondary ability that turned on friendly fire. Then make that second ability have the unfortunate side-effect of 'friendly fire' also counting against players. The situation is then comparable, players would want to opt out of that second ability because they don't want to get killed by allies by accident, but because they're avoiding that specific effect of turning on friendly fire, they would not and should not be able to damage the enemies marked as friendly.

No secondary effect without primary effect. That's what these abilities are built around, the conditional situations.

If you opt out of the primary, you then should not be able to benefit from the secondary.

This is mostly utter nonsense, I'm sorry to say.

Firstly, I would estimate with at most 1% margin of error that there was no explicit intention of limiting anything other than actual damage taken with Covenant's invulnerability. The fact that other things predicate on taking damage and will therefore not function alongside the invulnerability is mere consequence.

 

Dissimilarly to that issue, when calling these ability facets and outcomes linked you are misjudging equality of effects and equivalence of effects.

Just as 3 * 5 is not an equal expression to 5 * 3 as the multiplier and multiplicand differ, the result is the same and this is therefore an equivalent expression. Same goes for an infinite amount of further permutations that result in 15.

A Vauban's Bastille is not an equal OR equivalent effect to a Limbo's Stasis when Rift states matter; where Vauban is our previous 3*5 and Limbo in this instance is 5*3*(x) - the x in this instance is our boolean rift state. It can be 0 or 1 to affect the outcome.

A Vauban's Bastille is not equal but IS equivalent to Limbo's Stasis when the rift state is overridden to always match true. Vauban = 3*5 = 15; Limbo = 5*3*(1) = 15. The Rift variable here is always 1 and therefore the equations provide identical results.

Vauban can hold fewer targets, but can also throw down multiple concurrent Bastilles. This is essentially irrelevant unless you're pulling a Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

 

An equivalent Covenant Retaliation expression could be considered as this:

crBuff = (cContrib(s) + cContrib(r))

Where crBuff is the Retaliation Buff received, and cContrib is how much damage has been mitigated by squad (s) and recipient (r).

Now, you can see that the equation becomes identical when cContrib(r) == 0 regardless of why it became 0. Maybe it's 0 because you could never contribute (300 damage taken  * 0.0 (0%) mitigated), maybe it's 0 because you didn't contribute (0 damage taken * 1.0 (100%) mitigated).

In either case, the Retaliation expressions are not equal because cContrib(r) expands to different sub-expressions in the opted-out vs. hidden-in-a-corner cases, but the expressions are equivalent because they both evaluate to crBuff = cContrib(s) + 0.

 

This has been your needlessly mathy technical explanation on why opting out is no more of an exploit than alternatives that are already in place.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Entirely different, because that player is not trying to exploit a mechanic like Rage, which is deliberately not functional in the Invulnerable state. Which is where the point of this function being a problem started.

In this particular case, you are attempting to get the bonus from the ability without the drawback of being unable to use other mechanics that rely on taking damage, such as Chroma's Vex or the Rage mechanic. Meanwhile a person that hid is not getting any of those benefits, so even though they are not contributing to the ability the result is exactly balanced by the contribution.

 

And this is exactly the same thing, you are attempting to get the benefits of another player using their abilities without the existing drawbacks of them.

In this way a Limbo player using Banish and his time stop CC would be providing you with a the most powerful CC in the game without any of the involvement you would need usually of going into the Rift yourself to attack them.

That, and even if enemies in the Rift became able to damage you as a consequence, that still does not outweigh the incredible exploit that this would be.

You presume that the intention was for Rage to be prevented from functioning as a part of such effects rather than it being a side-effect of such. Certainly that's how it operates now, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific goal of the design.

You're also conflating distinct effects again. The drawback of the invulnerability, if you argue it as such, is to prevent Rage-like mechanics. Receiving a secondary buff is not predicated on this drawback - regardless of someone being functionally affected by the immunity, the crit buff is applied. Avoiding the drawback, therefore, does cost its associated benefit. You do not get to both become invulnerable and generate energy from Rage on damage that was mitigated by invulnerability.

 

In the same way, Stasis is a separate article than the Rift State itself.

Anyone standing anywhere but using warframe abilities hits any Stasis target regardless of Rift state already.

Anyone in the Rift has the same net avoidance of Rift 'drawback' (vulnerability to rift-plane units despite immunity to others) when Stasis has been cast.

Anyone overriding the Rift mechanics gains no beneficial protection from enemies subject to Stasis because they're not acting either way.

You gain nothing but the removal of a griefing state in which enemies are kept in the Rift and allies being unable to damage them with any non-ability source unless Limbo graces them with a Cataclysm, Banish, or portal through which to change their state.

This is not an exploit any more than Vauban conventionally utilising a Bastille to provide inactive targets to shoot at your leisure is an exploit. Neither are fighting back.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

And therein lies the problem, you would have the gain from the ability, but not have the balancing of the stage before that has both the benefits and the drawbacks implied by its nature.

In a situation like Speed, the things you get are all based on that one stat; movement speed, meaning that melee speed is increased as well because that factors in, the opt-out on the buff is then simple; you do not accept a melee speed buff.

The others? More complicated. Direct damage mitigation affecting your ability to gain energy from the Rage mechanic almost always comes with a secondary effect that's beneficial as well that works off something else. Limbo's Rift Plane, if you opt out of it, means you'll not be able to kill enemies when they are in the Rift, as a direct counter-point. And a few dozen others, but these are known to be common complaints, and all of them affect far more than just one little aspect, they don't affect just one stat that you can easily say that you would gladly sacrifice the secondary in favour of not being affected by the primary.

For example, would you say that having to roll out of The Rift was so annoying that you would opt out, but then expect to be able to damage enemies that Limbo placed inside it? If I know anything about the way DE balances, then the blunt answer is no.

Likewise, if you didn't go through the damage absorb phase of Covenant, why would you get the crit bonuses?

So you're faced with the opposite problem that we start with, in that case, which is what to do when you've opted out, but then can't get any of the beneficial things that you may want that come from these.

If your answer is that you get the benefits without the drawbacks, then it simply isn't going to happen, even in a reduced state.

Which is why my first comment turns up that answer of simply... it really is on us, as players, to adapt to these changes and buffs as they happen to us, even if our personal preference is that we didn't have them in the first place. It is better to choose to use something that irritates us, use it for our own ends, than it is to refuse to accept it and try to get that function removed at the expense of other people.

The simple answer is that these things are ostensibly beneficial effects, and therefore if you opt out of (part of) one, then.. you're getting fewer, even if non-zero benefits. You're not opting out of an objectively detrimental effect because these existing would permit directly griefing other players. Besides the Rift, but more later.

Covenant:

You're not getting invulnerability, but is that any different from a person who got the invulnerability, but hid out of sight of any enemies, therefore didn't get hit to contribute to the crit chance? They still get the secondary buff after the fact, so why not someone who avoids the invuln outright?

Volt Speed:

Attack and Movement Speed are not intertwined, or we'd see ludicrous attack speed for every other speed buff (Augmented-Zephyrs and Nezhas for example). The two effects are distinct. Once again, is this different from someone who quick-melees in place when affected by Speed? They're not moving around actively, therefore only effectively altered by the attack-speed portion. You're not forced to build up the attackspeed in a manner not unlike Volt's own passive, it's a separate function.

The Rift:

I think you're misjudging the rift state entirely, as this is the one case in which 'drawbacks' and benefits are intertwined but both aspects are overridden in my theoretical implementation of an opt-out for Rift mechanics entirely:

• Rift Player can damage Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)
• Rift Player cannot damage Non-Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)

Those are the the two linked aspects of the Rift, ignoring the fact that Warframe abilities override it. However, if you opt out:

• Opt-Out Player can damage Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)
• Opt-Out Player can damage Non-Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)

You, opted out, ignore the drawback of not being able to hit enemies in the opposing state, BUT you also ignore the benefit of not being able to be hit by enemies in the opposing state.

Status quo is maintained. No exploitative outcome is achieved.

[Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed]

3 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

The only issue i've seen so far is that most people are way too individualistics to play online games with other people these days. Only their own way to play and have fun matters, and having to adapt to anyone else seems impossible. This is resulting in highly frustrated players and quite often highly toxic ones. They need to grow up at once.

But globally people really need to get some education and try to adapt to things instead of whining like 12 years old kids each time they're frustrated with something - It's getting really old.

I'll say it again - if things like the Rift State and Speed weren't acknowledged as potential problem cases, the devs wouldn't have seen fit to put a cleansing function on them.

Also last time I checked, 'whining kids' doesn't generally include the thought and resolution process of "This is a problem; the current solution is inadequate; here is a proposition that solves for the identified problems (and potential future ones) without forcing changes on anyone".

 

Is this suggestion more or less childish than, say, sitting down in front of extraction for the full 60 extra seconds in an otherwise ~3 minute relic cracking run in protest of the unwanted influences of your squadmates?