TheLexiConArtist
-
Posts
3,174 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by TheLexiConArtist
-
-
9 hours ago, voltocitygel said:
You know what? as i stated earlier, volt annoyances come from speed. The volt players hate having to cast it every 20 seconds, and squadmates hate having to backflip as often. Make it a channeled ability. You heard that right. As long as he has energy, he can run fast for as long as he wants, which means his squad will have to opt out less, unless trolling is involved- but this way you'd at least eliminate the root problem. You can't fix trolls. (personally, i'll use it less if it's changed like this, but i think this is what the community would benefit more from. i never played him for his 2 anyway)
This would possibly work as long as it operates more like Oberon's Renewal pulsing out once and maintaining on affected targets for the channel, and less like other aura-buffs which would simply reapply upon re-entering range (although not channeled, the effect of an un-augmented Chroma's elemetntal ward is an example of this)
But again, we're spot-changing how one ability works instead of futureproofing with something more generic. And someone's going to complain that they can't regen energy while Speed's active any more.
6 hours ago, Leqesai said:1600 hours in and I've never found my squad buffs to negatively affect my experience.
Expecting to be able to play your way when grouped with randoms is silly. If you want to play a certain way then create your own groups and communicate with your team to not spam buffs and such (or ask them to use frames that don't ruin your experience).
I don't want to seem harsh here but a big part of this issue seems to be the disconnect between your expectation of how the game should work and how the game actually works.
Reasonable expectation to engage with enemies to some extent is what led to Blind Mirage and Quake Banshee being reworked.
Please imagine, if you will, a hypothetical Assimilate Nyx who is able to provide that buff to allies as well as herself.
Buff? Sure, you're bloody invincible. But you also suffer the mobility limitation. I'm sure you can see why a player might not want to suffer this influence despite the overall ability being a beneficial effect.
That's no different to Volt providing increased attack speed but also essentially turning a level into ice physics for people whether they like it or not. It's already acknowledged as a potentially unwanted influence by having a backflip cleanse - that's just not good enough because it still interrupts gameplay to do so repeatedly.
1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:I grow tired of it myself but...
...
Debatable as "improved" but perhaps its better than nothing depending on how you look at it.
I just want to clarify some things here being I play Chroma a lot. Rage (and by extension Vex Fury) can be blocked by even health healing. I have come to realize it more robustly with Oberons coming up more often in Arbitrations. Damage dealt under a short window (probably has to do with processing lag) while being healed can negate gains from such effects from taking damage. It takes much longer to reach max stack on Chroma with healers and it doesn't help with any further mitigations which if shields block Fury outright and if health is reduced and possibly negated if you aren't moving past certain thresholds.
You're conflicting your subjective experience with the objective improvement.
If the worst case scenario is that everything applies to people as it already does (nobody using pre-emptive opt-out) but the best case is more viable squads without a conflict of interest then the result is objectively positive. Enjoyable gameplay differences >= 0.
This claim (while only tangentially related) is interesting, I haven't used Rage so much personally that I've noticed any buggy non-generations other than from certain Eidolon abilities. Perhaps report it as a bug outright if you can get some hard evidence?
Still, with opt-outs you'd have the option of relying only on your own health restoration as well, instead of having energy gains from Rage potentially reduced by foreign healing.
-
On 2018-10-15 at 8:20 AM, Axio. said:
Why should your play preferences affect their playstyle, if you can't stand having the situation be the other way around?
What's so bad about spending -- at a reasonable maximum -- 20 minutes with someone who is doing something that you have the ability to walk away from? On Survival, Capture, Spy, Rescue, Exterminate, Interception, and Excavation missions, you have the opportunity to simply not interact with these people. In Defense missions, you can simply drop out at 5. Abilities have a maximum range, and just as they are free to build for, as well as use, those abilities, you are free to leave their range, as well as the mission.
Plus, a majority of the community does not have problems with many of the buffs you have called attention to, and they simply adjust their playstyles accordingly.
You seem to not be understanding that the proposal explicitly seeks to not impact the playstyle of the person using an ability while providing a pre-emptive solution to that person affecting the playstyle of others who might not welcome it.
Sure, I don't always abort out, and per example, relic runs might typically be short - but constantly backflipping still an unnecessary, unwanted extra that gets incredibly grating. Especially in situations where you're running a lot more of the mission than you might 'normally'. It adds up when the influence is common (relic runs), and even small delays only become more significant in smaller scopes.
Range is not an adequate argument either - when the objective is uniform, as with a single waypoint or path to objective/extraction, it is expected that squadmates will often be relatively near to one another. And there's no indicator of the range, either, so how you expect this to be feasible is unknown to me.
You shouldn't presume to speak for others. A majority of the community may simply be 'suffering in silence', so to speak. No real way of knowing how many people might use the option and enjoy the increased agency over their gameplay until it's implemented and known.
On 2018-10-15 at 4:22 PM, voltocitygel said:Fair enough. I can understand it, at least. It takes me around a second to adjust when a volt with a different power strength uses speed. Like I mentioned though, the current opt out would work better if the duration was longer. Then the people who wanted it wouldn't have to cast all the time, and the recipients wouldn't have to opt out constantly.
i understand the rationale behind your idea- I'm just not 100% for it. It would be handy sometimes, but it'll be difficult to pull off without ruining most of what makes warframe fun- being awesome with your team.
To cite the title of my previous attempt at getting this done - prevention is better than a cure. It could be abused to remove almost any influence from teammates, but... while you might question why someone doing that does not simply play solo in that case, in others it allows for more awesomeness. The new Power Donation aura, for example - imagine still being allowed to make use of this aura in a squad without neutering the effect of a Speed-Nova, because they opted out of receiving any foreign increases to power strength?
In terms of unwanted Movement Speed buffs, the following synergies are among those which arise if I can selectively avoid that stat being affected instead of having to avoid the frame/ability entirely:
- I can take an attack speed augment from the Volt in a squad.
- I can have Jet-Stream Zephyr provide my projectiles with increased FAST.
- I can take advantage of well-placed teleportation from an Escape-Velocity augmented Nova without momentum suffering afterwards.
11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:Increasing the diversity of frames YOU can play with does not equate to actual increase in co-op gameplay. Four people sharing the same space isn't co-op, it is just that four people sharing space; with all luck you have the same objective. The lack of co-op is exactly the problem that has lead you here. You want the game to play independently of certain things. If you joined a Volt that wasn't going to use Speed anyway it is just as viable now as it is with changes. You've done nothing but remove an actual possible co-op element even if it is just yourself.
I am all too easily drawn into a display of one-upmanship and I do not wish this to impede the thread's discussion further.
Simply responding to the quoted; if I would enjoy making use of Electric Shield and having my ally perform area damage and control with Discharge, then the ability to do this with any unscreened Volt player whilst not being beholden to their usage of Speed affecting me as well is objectively improved co-op.
The Volt player continues to play as they like, and benefits from the abilities I bring to the squad.
I benefit from the Volt abilities that do not interfere with me playing as I like, without requiring any special action from the Volt, or myself (other than pre-selecting menu options).
Nobody has to leave a squad or endure host migrations due to someone leaving a squad based solely on the Warframes present.
Nobody has to spend time finding a group without arbitrary XYZ influences in it.
Everyone has more of a smooth, efficient, enjoyable game with their random matchmade group.
Therefore, co-op experience has improved.
4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:Opting out of buffs should only be an option if it's all or none. Opting out is just a band-aid in itself to avoid fixing the root problems and DE would likely fix those issues anyway when they see everyone just permanently opts out of specific buffs so it would be pointless.
Opting out of buffs has been suggested many times, and it's still not a good solution. It does nothing to actually improve the game. Just keep making threads pointing out mechanics and abilities that are an issue and offer solutions instead of taking the lazy way out.
I don't want those who enjoy these effects to have to change for my benefit. I just don't want to have to be interrupted at their behest either.
Remember what happened when Speed was altered to a "pick up to activate"? Outcry.
There are also circumstances in which I may wish to situationally accept such an influence, such as desiring a speed assist if I was running a Hobbled Key for a Vault run; or in the case of a Speed Nova wishing to disallow their build goal being violated by an allied Growing Power / Equinox / Power Donation but desiring to benefit from foreign Power Strength in other builds/frames.
You could spot-check all of these abilities as new additions cause them to become affected, or you could make an abstraction that allows the player customisation to intercept the problem before it starts. Speaking from experience - a proper abstraction is almost always more desirable than making a thousand specific tweaks.
4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:Limbo's rift being unwieldy when it comes to ally interaction shouldn't just be ignored when there's countless good rift interaction improvement threads. Disabling the rift on yourself won't make things any easier either. What happens when Cataclysm is up around enemies or they are rifted and you physically can't be? You literally have to use abilities to kill them or wait out the fantastically long ability duration. No exception.Then you couldn't play Trinity, Harrow, Loki, and (possibly after rework?) Nyx, and several others depending on their build.
3 hours ago, Thaylien said:The problem I have with total opt-outs is the way that this could be very much abused or just mis-understood by players.
If, for example, you opt out of Banish, then you will then never be able to kill enemies within the Rift, even if Limbo puts down his Cataclysm, because it's the Rift mechanic you're opting out of not the single ability. Meaning that a player who knows you've opted out of being in the Rift would purposely be able to wide-area prevent you from killing enemies in the opposite nature to the way they do now, with equal amounts of frustration.
Imagine getting Rifted in one mission, not understanding, thinking it's a debuff or similar because you're a new player, going to the options and seeing that you can turn it off, and then have the problem of any Limbo basically excluding you from the game as they play.
Both here missed the Rift example previously stated.
Currently, visualising in pseudo-code:
SpoilerTARGET.HitBy(DAMAGE_SOURCE)
{
IF ( Rift_State(TARGET) EQUALS Rift_State(DAMAGE_SOURCE) )
{ TARGET.RemoveHealth(DAMAGE_SOURCE.DamageDealt) }
}
Damage is dealt if the rift state of SOURCE and TARGET match.
And presuming we can reference our new opt-out settings for a player:
SpoilerTARGET.HitBy(DAMAGE_SOURCE)
{
IF ( Rift_State(TARGET) EQUALS Rift_State(DAMAGE_SOURCE)
OR (TARGET.OptOut.IgnoreRift)
OR (DAMAGE_SOURCE.OptOut.IgnoreRift))
{ TARGET.RemoveHealth(DAMAGE_SOURCE.DamageDealt) }
}
We can just allow all damage TO and FROM rifted entities in the case of any player who has opted out of the mechanic.
(As pseudocode, there'd be a little more in there in actual implementation, but no need to let my programming conventions get in the way of the concept being readable)
The whole menu is supposed to be a purely advanced configuration option, and clearly marked/warned as such. New players "shouldn't" be using it if they're not sure. Some will, but nothing is totally proof against unwitting self-sabotage, is it?
3 hours ago, Thaylien said:And then again... where would you put the goalposts of this opt-out?
Gara's Splinter Storm can scale its damage up infinitely if she farms it well, meaning that the defensive buff she gives you could be dealing huge amounts of damage every tick, but you're using melee for preference and it's killing things before you are, preventing your combo from ever increasing.
You could be using a Rage build for your Chroma, farming energy and relying on the received damage to buff up your own defense/offense, and Harrow's 4 comes along at an in-opportune time and makes you invincible, completely preventing you from getting energy when you need it to recast your buffs before they're over.
I've seen every argument people have about Volt, but at the same time, so have DE, they've tried dozens of different ways, most of them in a big flurry of activity over two months in 2017 trying to find other ways to opt-out, or even opt-in instead, and none of those actually worked either. The backflip is kind of just the least of the evils that we could have.
So the issue is kind of on us, as players, to adapt to other people that are inconvenient, the same way we do in real life.
Splinter Storm is an interesting one, I'll concede that. Perhaps it would hold a category of 'damage aura' or 'reactive damage' (like that one Thorns buff from the Titania ability nobody every uses in earnest), alongside the tag of 'damage reduction' of course. Could be a little more involved to code out than the general stat/state changes, depending on how the Splinter-shield is actually implemented.
Invulnerability, damage reduction and restoration could all be categories you could opt out for the sake of fueling Rage (shield restoration separate from health, for that matter). Also Stealth as previously mentioned in the thread, because you can't get mad if they don't know you're there to be hit.
I personally had less of an issue with the pick-up opt-in Volt Speed than I do the current backflip-cleanse, but then people put the object unavoidably in doorways and corridors anyway, and it also messed things up for the people wanting to use it.
The aftermath of that, I believe, is what prompted this wholly better solution that is agnostic to anyone other than the person setting it and better abstracted to apply without having to make such specific changes all the time.
Wouldn't it be nicer to have almost everything just work without the risk of stepping on each other's toes?
-
3 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:
- I didn't move the goal post, you did. You make the assumption that my "time was wasted or experience worsened" but I said nothing of the sort. I couldn't be bothered with who joins my missions when I am on public; that is in fact why I am on public. To which I will refer you to point 3 again. Honestly my experience worsens by "bad" players which isn't a frame issue, it is a player skill issue.
- The way you make it sound I would have guessed the non-passable squads make up the majority not the other way around. Your hyperbole is what makes it absurd.
- If you aren't 'pressured' to change the way you play based on your situation (in this case allies), you may as well just play solo... where you can have the experience you want because you certainly don't need them at that point. It is honestly a flip of a coin of who gets to play the victim in this sort of situation.
- Well there is a sort of caveat to this particular example. In what do we call "public" and is it equal to "public matchmaking". "Open to the Public" doesn't necessarily mean public. The private owners of the buildings or organizations make rules that you then abide by. "Smoking Areas" is a rule set by such subjects is more akin to recruit chat (but a more streamlined matchmaking so to say) than it is to "public matchmaking" as Warframe does it. Governmental social owned areas, which are essentially an organization for the public, only provide such spaces because of retribution not for any ones particular benefit (they have to provide accommodations under law). Besides that whole issue is less about "experiences" than it is "the physical health of individuals". If "smoke" was only about experience it certainly wouldn't be regulated like it is. What is essentially being alluded to is that the world operates closer to recruit chat than it does public matchmaking. If we want to get to true "public" we are talking about like a remote (say mountain side) area where nothing technically stops anyone from "smoking" other than personal curtesy. This is more akin to how warframe public works.
- I think you have bloated "baseline experience" beyond what it is with your own ideals.
- Who is cherry-picking now? But even then Vitrify also blocks enemy movement which can be at the boon or detriment of your allies (which have minimal influence and ultimately no control of) experience. But I suppose you will go to the direct vs indirect interference point which honestly doesn't ring as a huge distinction to me considering you speak of "baseline experiences".
- I get it you think of this like a one foot forward type of thing. However I just see it as a waste of time because it doesn't promote coop it just reduces hindrance of solo play in a group. I rather put resources in more pressing matters than going through interactions with a fine toothed pick. They would be better off improving matchmaking standards. If frames should get shunned (or even too acutely favored) because of it then they have a basis to change their interactions not the other way around.
- A player's time can be wasted or their experience worsened by the influence. If it wasn't identified as potentially unwanted then it would not have a cleansing action to begin with. Just because you're fine with it doesn't mean everyone must be; please don't confuse the impersonal 'you' with a specific reference to yourself.
- It depends on the content. For Volt-Speed in particular I can go from maybe 1% impact pub-running other missions, to 90% impact in relic runs. Either way, there's an issue. Shouldn't suffer from a buff, prevention > cure, and 'private squads only' is not a solution.
- The point of this suggestion is that nobody needs to be a victim, either by enforced segregation on pain of negative influences on the experience, or by having direct alterations to existing abilities for those that do like them as they are. Hell, I liked old Limbo stasis for cracking aim-glide-headshot rivens... but the rest of the time I wanted no part of being forced into melee only.
- This is a lot of waffle that boils down to another goalpost moving. Obviously this is not the universal 'way the world works' as you originally claimed, although it is difficult to find analogies in real life where there can be a solution where nobody needs to compromise. There is no downside for either party in the context of this thread's suggestion.
- No, the game presents the baseline of an experience by what is designed and programmed to happen. You can go in rank 0, unmodded, and use no abilities to have that base experience. You can then alter the way you engage that experience with mods and abilities. Any other player also brings their own set of influences. But those should not change your control and gameplay directly without you having any agency in the matter.
- Nice Tu quoque fallacy. I'm not cherry picking, and I already said that while it is infeasible to seamlessly opt out of (most) allied influences that affect enemies, it has been known to be addressed by reworks in the more extreme cases (e.g. blind Mirage).
- I have previously described how this does in fact promote co-operative gameplay. If I wanted to avoid Speed currently electric puns I would have to abort out of any mission containing Volt (or other such influences), whereas with this implemented I would be able to play with any frame in the squad without needing to concern myself with the unwanted effect. Ergo, more viable squads without the need to abort, more welcome diversity, more co-op.
38 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:Speed is wonky sometimes, yeah. But once you learn the physics, it gives you a large movement speed increase and dps increase. As for the unpredictability? Sure, that could be annoying, but it takes a half second to correct a movement mistake, and a half second to react. You've lost roughly one second. Oh no.
Limbo? What's not great about getting energy and straight up ignoring enemies you don't want to deal with? Limbo is a tactical choice. He chooses what enemies he is going to focus/ignore, and it's his allies choice if they should go along with it. It's much more effective if they do, but...
its also true that we can easily deal with it on our own. The opt out is more than most games will give you. I've never seen opt out of this buff before warframe.
It gives you a large momentum increase which is not the same thing. You play the Volt, you know what your speed modifier is and you know when it's on. I get matched with any number of Volts, and it objectively slows me down because I have no way of knowing what power strength they have attached to the damn thing, so it is guaranteed to break my parkour flow (plus muscle memory), and backflipping every 10 seconds for each new cast intrudes on my game over and over.
It's like having someone jump into a game at random that turns the level into ice-physics. No thanks.
Limbo also doesn't just choose what enemies he focuses on - it's entirely possible for anyone else in the squad to be unable to attack wide swathes of enemies after a Cataclysm-Surge-Cataclysm puts them all into 'targeted' Rift; until that times out and unless Limbo provides Rift access to other players, nothing they can do.
Heck, even WoW lets you remove most buff effects with a right-click, and they added in a specific item that helps deal with some potential grief abilities by using it as a long lasting, preemptive opt-out.
-
5 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:
You are speaking to the wrong person if you want empathy on such a subject.
- If they joined halfway through my mission I wouldn't care because its almost done anyway. The mission is winding down at that point. I'm not so petty.
- There is almost no real circumstance that it would pose a huge problem based on how matchmaking actually works. On mission types you'd want to spend longer times in you can't have join ins after Rot A, so were talking about 5mins at most. That is early to decide what you want to do.
- If I was concerned about people joining in I wouldn't have been on Public to start with.
- I can change the way I play as it suits me. I have yet to meet a person with so much control over me (even at the peak of Limbo manipulation) to raise such a fuss.
You make a choice, you live with that choice, it is that simple.
If you care so much for the experience you want then it is your responsibility to control it. If you leave things to random chance then you leave the opening to get unwanted circumstances. That is how the world works.
1/2: Nonetheless, having to have your time wasted or experience worsened outside of your control. Don't move the goalposts.
3: I don't care about people joining in with 99/100 potential influences they bring. Therefore, the 1/100 should overrule the entirety of the 99% of passable squads? Absurd.
4: 'I' can change the way I play. What I don't want is for other people to force 'me' to change the way I play because this is a negative impact on the experience. (quotes for impersonal)
I could raise many hyperbolic counterarguments to the last point, but let's just keep things on an even level here.
By your logic, there is no defensible argument for a non-smoker to go to a public place (enclosed, for the purposes) and have any issue with the environment being full of toxic chemicals. They should organise their own, restricted event and instantiate a non-smoking policy.
This is a tax of effort, delays, time, money on anyone just wanting the baseline of an experience.
Therefore, my government saw fit to stop this being allowed and to demand that the sources of the influence seek specific areas to engage their habits where the influence could not reach those who do not willingly, directly introduce themselves to it. Public places now have designated smoking areas.
Now, you may argue that the analogy doesn't fit because it's 'not intended to be a positive influence', but the net result of a perceived negative influence remains (and many smokers find their own comforts in the act besides mere addiction, making it 'positive' to them but not to everyone).
Obviously, in that case, there had to be a dichotomy. There's no way to simply tell your lungs not to breathe in smoke. Here, we don't have to stop anyone being in the same proverbial room.
5 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:I mean I would agree if they worked the same, but they don't. Gara's has more weak points than Frosts. Frost can hold more points and is generally simpler to use. While Gara's wall works great in enclosed spaces oddly enough it is fairly crap in open maps (and we got a whole new one coming!). While I can't say I love the limitation on Globe suggesting it is so similar to Gara's is naïve
Gara's vitrify has always lacked allied interference even when it was a duration-based impenetrable wall (as Frost's globe originally was). Pretending they are relevantly different and never operated in any similar way is simply trying to cherry-pick information to falsely support your point.
5 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:But they still exist. Honestly they are the cases I run into the most when I get annoyed. And you're right they are not obliged to heal me but since I don't have control of them and I likely didn't need them anyway, their mere presence is probably just a nuisance to begin with. AND if I really cared, I would just leave or set up my group how I wanted it. That would be my point wouldn't it.
I already said that this could still be included in opting-out even if the preferable solution to these in particular would be to obviate reasons that restoratives and protections may hinder the gameplay.
-
6 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:
Well it depends a lot on how one looks at it.
What has been gone over this thread is not so much about matchmaking as much as it is humanity in general. The problem is people generally don't get along but people come to expect things to operate in certain matters. If you get placed on a team/group for your job, you either work with them or you don't. You adapt to the situations presented by forced interactions or you don't. The general rebuke to that premise is that "...but it is a game." A game doesn't automatically remove every and all aspects of life. Public matchmaking is just that dealing with the average public. If you don't wish to deal with the public, then you segregate yourself from the public not the other way around.Picture the following:
You start a mission. You do half the mission. A player joins who uses the unwanted ability that directly intrudes on your gameplay.
Is that then fair to define your only options as abort (after doing some amount of work, losing all gains and causing host migration) or to suffer an unpleasant experience? No. Should this stop you from ever matchmaking to avoid perhaps one specific effect not present in every mission and squad setup? No, that's absurd. It beholds you to an unanticipated quantity.
On the other hand, is it fair for a player to join into a mission then have their gameplay beholden to the others they had no power of knowing would not appreciate what they wanted to do? I would say, also no.
Ergo, the solution must be sought that solves the problem for the recipient without restricting the source.
6 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:Besides dealing with every possible interaction is a difficult endeavor. Are we removing Frost's Globe blocking shots? Are you able to get hit from inside if you choose to ignore it? How does that function as far as calculations go? Same arguments for the Rift Plane and Limbo's grasp on those interactions. Or perhaps healing in the form of either Health or Shields? I don't want your shields recovery if I am on Chroma for certain periods. Or DR? Honestly it is better to make a more streamlined and focused matchmaking system rather than making extra exception lists.
Gara doesn't block allied shots - arguably this suggests Frost doing so is outdated and should be removed outright, not just opt-outable (there's not really any benefit to remaining opted in, here)
Affecting incoming bullets falls under the 'enemy influencing' category. This would not be under the purview of opt-out regardless.
The Rift Plane generally functions as a check on target and source of damage and whether their Rift-state matches; players opted out of Rift mechanics would be able to hit and be hit by targets in both planes in much the same way Warframe abilities override the check. I'm aware this is debatably exploitable due to Stasis (shooting frozen targets from anywhere) but needing to be reworked already shows that ability was not well thought through to begin with, and again, abilities still do it already.
There are few instances where restorations and DR are ever a bad thing, and perhaps it would be better served to look into tweaks for those few cases to remove that concern.
As a strictly advanced set of options, though, why not? On your own head be it if you want to opt away any allied help in these categories. Randoms aren't obliged to heal you up at all, so you aren't relying fully on them anyway, right?A 'more refinable matchmaking system' exists in recruiting chat. Trying to allow the random matchmaking to filter more is going to be a larger headache for game health and kill diversity in many cases, where this strictly enhances diversity because nobody should ever have to worry what else ends up in the same squad.
-
3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:
-scratches head-
Unlike Limbo or Slowva which can prolong a mission unnecessarily, i'm struggling to see how volt speed can be a "problem".
Momentum. An experienced player can often outpace most Volts with active Speed effects by simply being more competent with the parkour system.
The effect of Speed is unpredictable - you have no idea when your ally will press the button. You have no forewarning of exactly how strong the effect will be. Largely, this results in feeling like you've been put into the worst kind of ice physics and is a generally undesirable experience.
So you backflip to clear the buff.
And then they press their button again 5-10 seconds later. Process repeats. Intrusive, wouldn't you say?
3 hours ago, Voltage said:Calling this a problem is not accurate. Players have playstyle preferences. You either adapt to the squad or you play alone/with players who meet your standards. If we are allowed to disable Volt Speed, what is stopping me from asking to remove Metronome/Void Shadow because I dislike how Octavia/Operators hides my FashionFrame when I use Maiming Strike near them? The ridiculousness of my statement is tantamount to the statement regarding Escape Velocity or Volt's Speed. Buffs affect gameplay and you adapt or not play with these players.
The amount of work this provides for developers is immense. They have to determine what is and isn't a "buff worthy of opting out of", and players will disagree and tell DE to expand this. It is not feasible to introduce a list of EVERY single buff in the game from EVERY source with a checklist of "Enable/Disable". My examples seem extreme, but it is purely to show how easily this erupts into more harm than good.
I don't see why stealth effects shouldn't be included in the opt-outs if you'd rather be going toe to toe with your foe instead of them being unaware thanks to an outside source.
Anyone not teabagging nearby the Octavia, or anyone at all near their local Loki or prowling Ivara still makes that player intimately familiar with the risk of crossfire despite their own stealth, so that's not really their place to complain in that regard.
As for the workload, programming-wise, it's a check of a setting when seeking to apply a buff to someone in range. It's little different here than checking to see if a target happens to be immune to a certain effect (CC on bosses), or is inside Nullification fields.
The most esoteric thing in the list I gave is probably concerning bullet attraction. Others are either simple statistic changes or a state effect (Rift Plane), the latter of which is already piling on the "is this source in the same rift-state as its target" checks for any given shot or melee swing that would connect with something.
That said, there's a decent chance the melee-sourced (thrown/gunblade) override for attractors could be borrowed and applied in all cases if a player had opted-out entirely.You may notice in the previous thread I suggested different approaches to the design in order to help with that abstraction - not needing to specify every ability of every player entity, but instead to simply correctly tag the effects associated with a given ability and let the opt-out deal with them by category.
9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:I have non buffs that distrupt my enjoyment of the game.
Slova on defense missions
Limbo on any mission.
Saryn on exterminate.
DE appease create a system in which I can tailor there game to the things I only want to play with.
I'm sure this was meant to be sarcastic, but it's relevant to the discussion, if only to point out that cases which did get judged as unreasonable intrusion in the past (Banshee quake and Blind Mirage, most notably) did in fact see changes as a result.
Unfortunately, there's no way to govern the effects on enemies without resulting in two completely asynchronous game states. In terms of affecting players, though, doing this makes a seamless environment where nobody has the ability to directly alter another's control without them having any agency.
-
10 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:
So you can't create your own squad , since when ? 😂
Equally, the players having a negative impact on the gameplay of others can form their own squads instead of matchmaking. Doesn't make it an acceptable solution either way.
The ability to make your own squad and demand nobody bring it didn't stop the Tonkor being nerfed.
The ability to make a squad with no Limbos in it didn't stop Stasis being reworked.
With this implemented nobody has to make their own squad; the ability user and everyone who likes the influence keeps it with no change, anyone who doesn't want it can still play with those who do without having to change the way they play. Everyone wins.
-
1 minute ago, Spectre-8 said:
Form your own squad and set your rules , problem solved.
7 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:- It is not acceptable to force mission-abort or non-public sessions due to what is ostensibly intended to be a positive impact (see: Limbo reworking... and again to stop antisocial Stasis)
Problem remains. As discussed in the previous thread before it got buried in Fan Concepts, implementing this function objectively improves co-operative gameplay as neither party has to alter their matchmaking or in-mission gameplay to achieve full satisfaction.
-
I am flipping sick of flipping during relic runs.
Read the previous thread if you need the long story, but here's the summary:
- Effects from other squad members may interfere with your gameplay (examples: Speed-altering effects, Rift Plane, Bullet attractor effects, Power Strength gains for speed-Novas etc)
- It is not acceptable to force mission-abort or non-public sessions due to what is ostensibly intended to be a positive impact (see: Limbo reworking... and again to stop antisocial Stasis)
- Players require the ultimate agency in what gameplay-altering effects apply to them from allied sources.
- It is also not acceptable for a player's personal opinions and preferences to dictate the gameplay of others ("Stop casting <ability> or riot") where the conflict can arise completely at random through public matchmaking.
- Therefore, an alternative source of seamless opting-out is necessary that is agnostic to any other individual in the game session.
I don't want to backflip every 5 seconds when there's a Volt in the squad. That's a band-aid, but its existence proves there can be a valid desire to not have that buff. Limbo may not be the troll-frame he used to be, but I'm sure lots of players would be happier if they didn't have to worry about tripping into and out of the Rift Plane at all.
Just give us the ability to say no to things before they're forced down our throats.
-
1
-
7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!
One of the reasons the Trinity build works is that it benefits from the same additive resistances that enemies can - Shield base resistance to Radiation damage (25%), plus Diamond Skin (45%), plus Aviator (40%) = >100% damage reduction. Please consider stopping resistance buffs from being additive without cap instead, as it will prevent the Trinity Castanas functionality and also stop enemies from being completely immune to weapons sometimes.
This happens in three main ways:
- Corpus Sorties - Shield Ospreys provide additive, stacking resistances to elemental damage in Sorties, easily reducing pure-elemental weapon damage to 0.
- Enhancement Sortie conditions - Additive resistances to all elemental or physical damage type, combined with base resistances, can result in full immunity in some cases.
- Eximus Aura Stacking - Elemental Eximi provide resistances to their element and its derived combinations. This also can stack to full immunity (easily checked in Simulacrum!)
Don't just delete player tactics while leaving the unfair disadvantages untouched.
-
Sure, why not, I'm overdue for a change of Operator outfit anyway.
Spoiler
-
1
-
-
4 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:
Potential rebalance of all legacy arcanes after reintroduced. They did it to weapons and arcanes, if they can be farmed, it could happen to these as well. This could make some of the better ones have harsher penalties. This is speculation.
I'd argue that there's absolutely no need to further penalise the arcane helmet effects. For the most part, excepting cases of extreme minmaxing to supersede current maximum limitations from purely mods, they could be replaced with an Arcane Energise stack with the mods tweaked to cover less power efficiency:
- Duration (e.g. Trinity Aura) - Higher duration without sacrificing sustainability by using no or fewer ranks of Fleeting Expertise
- Power (e.g. Frost Squall) - Use Blind Rage without as much of the build going towards compensating for the negative efficiency
- Efficiency (e.g. Loki Essence) - Directly replaceable by better energy economy from orbs
- Energy Pool (e.g. Ember Phoenix) - Better sustainability is superior to greater capacity in almost all cases.
That leaves us with Range (e.g. Mag Coil), Health (Rhino Thrak) and Sprint Speed (Rhino Vanguard).
- Health is generally replaceable by an armour Arcane (e.g. Guardian) for similar EHP benefits theoretically, because I didn't do the maths here.
- Supplanting Range with efficiency is a multi-mod process (Overextended + Blind Rage) which is muddier and therefore not as directly/universally applicable.
- Sprint Speed is only indirectly replaceable by situational Arcane Enhancements (e.g. requiring Headshot trigger for Parkour bonus, requiring Parry/Damage triggers for Movement Speed).
You also do not receive one of your potential bonus 'Arcane Revives' for any given mission when using any legacy arcane.
Therefore, taking the slot (and the minor drawbacks already in play) is already a sufficient downside to using them in lieu of the current flexible Arcane Enhancement system.
-
Spoiler
The implementation of legacy Arcane helmets is literally the most intrusive, worst possible option out of all that DE could have taken. It needs a dev to drop a couple hours on tweaking it.
To wit:
- Equip two Arcane Enhancements in your mod loadout.
- Switch Appearances to one with an Arcane Helmet
- Mod loadout now only has one Arcane Enhancement due to Arcane Helmet taking second slot.
- Switch Appearance back to one with non-Arcane Helmet
- Mod loadout has still got an empty second Arcane slot.
Even if you don't invest the time to properly decouple them from cosmetics and make them their own unique single-equip, single-arframe Arcane effects, this is inarguably unacceptable - particularly because the change happens in a completely different area than the one you're currently looking at.
Note to self: Check how arcane slots react to switching between loadouts which use the same mod config but different appearances. Seems like there's bug potential there.
Edit: Upon testing the behaviour of loadouts, the second Arcane Enhancement didn't get removed, but did get disabled... then I ran the steps above and it still only got locked behind the 'you have a hat on' error without removing it from the loadout entirely.
So I don't know what the deal is with that, because it damn sure vacated the second slot's arcane the first time I was toying around with it.
Regardless, I still support unification of Arcane effects, and promotion of fashionframe, by converting legacy Arcane helmets into frame-specific single-equip Arcane Ehancements. No matter how spaghetti your code is, there's no way that it could be so difficult to do this that it would take more than an evening of devtime to implement.
-
NOTE: this is NOT a question of damage numbers or scale-up/fall-off as per any of the recent tweaks post-Beam-Rework.
Threw a forma on the Synapse this morning, since I have a Riven for it and all. While taking it through the current Ceres invasions for a little bit of affinity I noticed it was incredibly unreliable.
I could hold the beam on targets, centre mass, sometimes for a full second or longer without a single damage tick occurring. Naturally, I attempted to hone down the cause of this inconsistency:
-
Test for possibility of camera intercepting raytraces by changing Warframe.
- Going from Chroma Dynasty (a bulky figure) to Inaros (skinny, and have recently used with the Amprex without any noticeable issue with consistency)
- Result: Minimal changes within circumstancial error margin.
-
Test for accuracy issues.
- Had Heavy Calibur on the Synapse while I was levelling it. Took it off (without replacement) to see if the tick rate changed.
- Result: some notable improvements on tick consistency, but still recognisably imperfect (in particular, still able to wave the beam briefly over targets with frequent lack of damage ticks registering visually or functionally despite ample time to do so)
-
Test for mechanical correlation (synapse issue vs. beam issue)
- Performed same mission as in previous test using the Amprex.
- Performed similar actions as in previous test to compare the tick consistencies
- Result: Absolutely consistent in all test cases. Rate of damage numbers (and damage dealt) appropriate to weapon fire rate. Target acquisition effectively immediate as reticle passed over.
-
Test for possibility of camera intercepting raytraces by changing Warframe.
-
20 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:
Please let us either have a one-time change to all our weapons forma'd polarities to get our builds to function correctly again, or make forma'd polarities universal. I'd opt for the former purely because universal polarities negate a lot of the drawbacks to formaing a weapon.
Customary repost of my old concept that fits somewhere in between the two options. Not a one-time change, and also doesn't invalidate the drawbacks (because it still requires the extra investments):
-
Sharkwing was much more tolerable before they fixed pondskipping. At least once you knew about that and roughly what floors to graze and how to get flung forwards, the glacial pace of moving around underwater wasn't oppressing you at every turn.
-
Not only would this allow for good captura, it would allow people to test their builds and damage against any of the Eidolon triplets without having to a) wait for night and b) go through the rigamarole of capturing previous Eidolons just to square up against the Gantulyst/Hydrolyst.
-
If the damage is percentile based on current health, then you posit that somehow the explosive payload has a completely different strength based on your health, dynamically depending on how much you have at the time (since current), yet still has the same payload in terms of actual damaging output.
That makes no sense.
Also, since it can never actually kill you, even dealing a siginifcant portion of your current HP in damage is not exactly much of a disincentive to blowing yourself up old Tonkor style. Doesn't matter, if the enemies all die at the same time, right?
Self-damage needs its scaling throttled down (preferably non-linearly, otherwise the problem simply happens at a flat x% higher threshold) but not like this.
For some people there's fun to be found in the risk of blowing up your own face... it just needs to happen less easily. For those who don't like that, there are plenty of non-harmful AOE weapons you could use instead.
-
39 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:
LOL. Stockholm syndrome. LMAO.
I will say this because for some reason it's such a simple concept that people seem to over look it. Here goes. If you don't like the frame, then don't use the frame. If you like Loki more, then use Loki. If you like Octavia more, then use her.
I just don't have the problems you seem to have. Remember, you aren't forced to do or use any one thing in Warframe. I myself like her just as she is. Everything about her fits how I like to play. Some of the things you listed as drawbacks, I would have listed them as pros. So there is this nice little thing of personal perception.
With the exception of the channeled drain vs. duration there is literally nothing in the drawback list that is in any way positive. Hindrances to the player are still hindrances. Additional drain is still more wasting of a resource.
Between your response and @robbybe01234's it sounds like my reference to Stockholm syndrome was not taken as lightly as I had intended it. I apologise if it caused genuine offense.
And for the tenth time, I do like Ivara, but I am also capable of stepping back and assessing things and unlike you, I conclude that, while solvable problems, there are significantly more problems to solve for benefits that are not also significantly greater than alternatives. Why, pray tell, am I not allowed to highlight this discrepancy without being told to play the other warframes instead?
We're both perfectly capable of treating the symptoms. We simply disagree on whether the root cause should be addressed. I say it should.
31 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:So did you make this thread to be convinced that the cons you listed should be there? Or do you want to convince others that prowl should be changed because of those cons?
It's like there's no where to go in this conversation. You're seeing the ability as overburdened with negatives, I see the ability as balanced with obstacles. For me, I'll post if the thing has too many obstacles to overcome but for this, those are all easily dealt with and some of those are even personal nitpicks on your part.
Considering that I detailed the points for and against, made comparisons and drew a conclusion, obviously it's the latter.
You can treat terrible energy efficiency on a build by abusing Energy Restores. But you could also change the build to not be so inefficient in the first place.
In much the same way, we can all work with Prowl by stepping lightly on eggshells, operating around its 10 drawbacks like we do now... Or petition that maybe it shouldn't have 10 drawbacks to be worked around in order to use the ability without hindering yourself.
-
6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:
Now having said that. I can honestly say that Ivara is a great example of a very well thought out and balanced frame. Changing her with any type of buff would send her into the obvious over powered category that some already believe she's already in. She's one of the few frames that can stack her own bonuses onto her other bonuses all by herself without any other frames to help. Think about that last one for a bit.
40% better headshots and a lazy stealing mechanic that requires you to linger around and not kill the designate target is not worth that laundry list of obstacles you have to work around to access the whole complement.
And without those additional perks, you compare the primary function of invisibility itself and.. well, there's nothing beneficially separating it from the other stealthies. However you excuse and quantify it (I can just as easily alleviate Loki's vulnerability window if I throw on casting speed mods, too), whatever detriments are left over after you've budgeted for the novelty pickpocketing and just reasonably decent headshot advantage are detriments that Ivara needs to deal with in order to access the same invisibility effect other frames can for less.
Sadly I've been playing less of Ivara lately since I maxed out the focus tree I have her lensed for, and I can't boast that use percentage because it's based on affinity gain and I have more efficient things for grunt work that accumulates more by sheer attrition. But when there's something new, I go Ivara. When there's something tough, usually, I go Ivara.
I feel sorry for your Stockholm syndrome that reasons that she needs every last obstacle in her path as some sort of counterbalance.
You could probably take off every last one of those detriments and she still wouldn't be as 'OP' as Octavia, you know.
Besides, if those burdens are as nonfactors as you say, maybe that in itself signifies that they're just extra afterthoughts that shouldn't have been tacked on in the first place.
-
4 minutes ago, p3z1 said:
Touche.
Just saying that Prowl should have its downsides or else everyone would go and stick to Prowl-ing. As much as there's a lot of negatives on it, it's to balance out the positives you can get.
All I'm pointing out is Ivara's prowl has all those problems because it acts as a limit on what she(?) can do. Remove one of those, and it might upset balance.
- remove drain on damage - Ballsy play ignoring position. Quick thinking might become a norm and double down on energy drain when in low health.
- remove drain on moving - Perma-on Prowl.
- remove drain on melee - Stealth multipliers spam. Would not be a problem if Prowl didn't have other benefits.
- allow mobility - Massive energy drain, and can catch unmindful players unawares. Faster, more efficient looting, turns to meta = nerfed.- toggle to duration-based - Maybe?
I can stomach some downsides but having them every which way you turn like it is right now, I'm simply arguing is excessive, especially after various direct and indirect nerfs received to the beneficial functions of the ability.
In much the same way as I observed in the comparison, the drawbacks also double dip in many ways. Let's take the three additional drains for example:
- Drain on Damage - Ivara is far from tanky. Also, the pickpocket function promotes being closer to enemies. Therefore, the skill is antisynergetic with itself, and the punishment for poor positioning exists without draining energy (getting hit is more risky than it is for a facetank frame).
- Drain on Moving - Ivara has reduced movement options in Prowl, therefore the drain on moving is a double disincentive. Slowness also means you're moving for longer, therefore more of this drain time is accumulated. Unlike Cloud Walker, it's binary based on movement, not scaling based on distance (I think you misintepreted it as such given the 'allow mobility' bulletpoint)
- Drain on Melee - Poor mobility limits the viability of melee combat. Antisynergetic with Sleep Arrows, which should incentivise finishers but these trigger the additional drain (sometimes multiple instances per finisher). Also cannot slide attack.
-
2 minutes ago, p3z1 said:
If Prowl was Ivara's only ability, then I'd argue for a buff.Let's go back to Wukong's cloudwalker and compare "dealing with all that crap," because they both have horrendous drains. Rather, compare both of these guys.
Spoiler
Wukong
+ Invulnerable
+ Staggers on exit
- Drain per meter traveled
- Unable to deal damage in any way
- Stuck to walking/speed
- Slow cast time
- Low energy pool on Wukong
- Toggle drain
- Cannot use skills
- Requires external support to trigger syndicate effectsIvara
+ Loots
+ Can proc syndicate effects with weapons by self
+ Can hit things
+ High energy pool
+ Can do some maneuvers like rolling
+ Can use other skills
+ Headshot buff
- Drain per meter traveled
- Drain energy on receiving damage
- Drain energy on attacks
- Stuck to walking
- Toggle drainNow, who has the more crap to deal with?
You're kind of double-dipping to inflate the difference with a few of those, to be fair. "can hit things" is not a benefit gained by Prowl, "cannot hit things" is a drawback experienced in Cloud Walker. Likewise syndicate proc triggers. A deficit in cloud walker, but no specific benefit gained in prowl.
Revised:SpoilerWukong
+ Invulnerable
+ Staggers on exit
+ Travels in any direction
- Drain per meter traveled
- Unable to deal damage in any way
- Stuck to walking/speed
- Slow cast time
- Low energy pool on Wukong
- Toggle drain
- Cannot use skills
- Requires external support to trigger syndicate effectsIvara
+ Loots (limited)
+ High energy pool
+ Headshot buff
- Drain per meter traveled
- Drain energy on receiving damage
- Drain energy on attacks
- Slowed movement
- Cannot parkour except jump and roll
- Toggle drain
- Exposed if attacking unsilencedNot identical but quite a bit closer. Also I agreed that both are unsatisfying. I wouldn't wander over and post on a "make Cloud Walker better please" thread telling them that it was fine, but this is not that thread.
-
29 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:
Even if we go with your statement that prowl’s energy drain is as ridiculously large as you say, Ivara has one of the highest energy pools in the entire game. She can sustain that invisibility with just a little bit of efficiency.
It only gets truly ridiculous in certain situations.. but it's still unnecessary to have those extra drains at all. I think Wukong is the only other warframe with any ancillary drain mechanic (based on distance) for their invisibility... and I said before, that one is pretty sad too. But Ivara's not only suffering that. Actively disincentivised from melee usage. Actively hindered additionally by taking damage which.. you know, necessitates that you've taken damage, right? Strongly invis-reliant warframes aren't generally tanks.. The punishment for getting hit is that it hurts more because you can't take as many!
Add to that those certain situations where it is ridiculous - rapid, insignificant ticks of damage, or lingering status - and it all adds up.
What's even worse is that both of Ivara's augments so far are painfully mediocre too.
The movement speed from Infiltrate, should have been baked in as part of easing the needless burdens on the ability instead; the security bypass is just.. whatever. If you have Ivara you probably know your way around the vaults enough already that it's not giving you much.
And then there's the Navigator augment. Which. Exists, I suppose. In theory. Certainly not in build.
12 minutes ago, MystMan said:Well, Ivara has been around for 2 years, I've never seen anybody in this entire time until now complain about Prowl. Could it be possible that only you see burdens where the rest of us see balanced design? Ivara mains players have been doing very well, perhaps they know something you don't in when and how to use her?
I mean she has the ability to literally remain invisible forever and shoot cloak arrows on teammates and put enemies to sleep and has a high energy pool, with such cheesy big Pros it must come with big Cons to not make her an OP stealth frame. All her Pros are anything but "baseline functionality".I haven't personally, physically seen gravity, but i'm yet to high-five the moon.
Judging by the rest of the offhand comments in the thread it seems like most people are content to tiptoe around the problem and just focus on putting out the fires once they start. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't listen to someone if they finally suggest that, to extend the fire analogy, maybe smoking isn't a good idea if you're in a room littered with flammable, easily kindled material.
Maybe others have raised the issue, gotten a similar stone wall of player response, and just aren't tenacious enough to keep pushing to the point where you would've noticed the threads.
Remember, I'm not saying totally remove literally all the drawbacks and keep all the benefits. I'm saying that there are too many drawbacks right now that work counter to everything you actually want to use the ability for, which results in an ability that can still be functional but has problems delivering on the fun part.
-
Just now, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:
I agree that there are unlisted drawbacks that should be listed, but finishers do not drain energy, you can fairly easily avoid damage, and .5 energy for moving still only brings my energy consumption back up to .75, which is no problem for somebody with energy pizzas and a cap of over 500 energy. Heck, I can perform Sortie level spys solo with nothing more than my Ivara and a single energy pizza. That is how good Prowl is as an ability.
Finishers do drain energy (this was noticeable when multi-hit finishers were introduced, and the drain increased because of it ticking extra times per finisher performed, depending on which finisher is used)
Damage is mostly avoidable.. if you're solo. And even then it takes one wayward Eximus, a radiation proc or an unnoticed Arc trap and you're starting to get drained.
Do I even need to address the damnable energy restores again? (But hey, Loki's doing it just the same without the pizza thanks to Siphon, and whatever time you save with Infiltrate you've lost because you're jumprolling at best, not fully parkouring to the vaults like he is)
7 minutes ago, p3z1 said:Okay, let's ignore the negatives of ALL invisibility abilities of Warframes in the game then.
- Loki - Can do anything after the cast. No extra things. Augment turns all weapons silent.
- Ash - Can do anything after the cast. Low duration. Low energy cost. Some CC in the form of stagger. Augment cloaks allies.
- Octavia - Can do anything after meeting the condition. High duration. Everyone can benefit if they know what to do. High skill ceiling.
- Ivara - Limited movement. Can loot. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Augment allows faster movement and going through all sensors (bugged)
- Wukong - Limited movement, but can walk any direction. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Staggers on leaving the cloud.Ivara and wukong have similar movement restrictions, except Ivara can roll and walljump, but wukong can walk in any direction. Wukong drains more energy. Ivara can use ANY silent gun while invisible. Wukong can't deal damage in any way while cloudwalking. Balance.
Well, being your go-to, you should find other ways to compensate for it (Yes I just said that). Arc traps? She has a built-in Radar mod on her, you can't miss arc traps. Traps hidden behind walls/obstacles, produce invisibility bubbles. Dashwire helps (though eats energy). Ivara is NOT supposed to survive in the open, nor should she be caught in the open without energy. I'm calling user error on that (sorry).
I would argue that Cloud Walker is pretty unsatisfying as an ability too, but that aside you overlooked mentioning the actual invulnerability included on that one.
I do compensate for it, but I'm also not perfect (sometimes I too am lazy). It's just that Ivara has a special kind of actively hindering yourself by using your own ability that just doesn't gel with the experience I have with everyone else. I mean, if I wanted to slowly, immortally travel through a mission I'd be Hydroid and Undertow from spawn to extraction. And, bonus: more reliable, multi-target looting with Pilfering Swarm.
I'm absolutely stunned by how many people are defending Prowl in all its overburdened 'glory'. You can operate around all the burdens, but what other warframe requires you to deal with that much crap just to maintain the baseline functionality of an ability? No, really. Let's make Oberon's Renewal do the multi-target drain for every target in range whether it's actively restoring HP or not, and also slow him to a crawl while he's using it. It's got a decent spread of benefits on top of its primary function, so obviously it has to be absolutely debilitating...
Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed
in General
Posted
I could say this is almost goalpost-moving since the original didn't identify the foreign crit gains as a focus, only the prevention of personal Chroma damage gains, but for the sake of argument both fuel the same end of MORE POWER, so we'll say it's implied.
As I would seek to implement this with respect to Covenant specifically, the following occurs:
Result: Chroma charges up Vex Armour and receives Rage energy from damage received, then receives crit chance (albeit potentially less) along with everyone else. All that has been 'lost' is an ostensibly beneficial effect that happens to situationally not agree with the needs of one member of the squad.
Remember, personal buffs will always apply regardless of the opt-out settings. This only restricts allied influences. You wouldn't need to re-enable invulnerability if you wanted to play Harrow yourself (or any other self-immunising warframe).