Harutomata

True on the "Big Pants" (may or may not steal that nickname for that enemy). There aren't nearly enough of them to make much of a difference though. Previous time I checked Warden arms only works for charging incarnons though and not for the weakspot interactions on deadhead, weapons, and abilities which should work with them otherwise.

This post isn't primarily about charging incarnons, it's about other headshot dependent mechanics in the game like the deadhead arcane, and various weapon shot conditions and warframe ability interactions which get even less interactions from the faction. Culverin canisters and Severed Warden arms interact with incarnons which charge headshots but don't interact with any other headshot mechanic in the game. (I could make a list out of these things, but the main post covers many relevant examples of this already, and I'm sure the warframe wiki also has a list on headshot interactions.) Then there are those enemies which don't interact with either which are even worse, but even the previously mentioned enemies having their weakspots properly interact with older mechanics than incarnon would make a very relevant improvement with this issue.

Posting to this thread again after doing more deimos lab missions. Please give more murmur headshot interactions it's ridiculous how only 1/5 of the faction can work for deadhead and various weapon perks and warframe abilities. You're needlessly punishing a minority of the playerbase who still cares to aim when they're using specific gear.

What really annoys me on the Artemis Bow is the reload time, it makes the usage of the weapon feel so clunky I'd rather use other bows. It's nearly an entire second. If without the augment then Cernos Prime, if with the augment then there are other options for AoE that are less clunky to use. The no damage fall off doesn't make up for the unpleasant gameplay and I have no problem using bows or hitting headshots. Not that it's difficult when you can just alt fire a quiver to make them sleep. I didn't test it with Ivara yet, but most headshot interactions don't work on the Indifference which might include that augment. Either the murmur enemy has no head, or if they do have a weakspot they don't work for headshot mechanics. DE probably designed them this way to go against the new incarnons, but instead they just made older mechanics relying on headshots not work on them at all, and made players just use the incarnons which only need bodyshots instead.

Equinox doesn't deserve a nerf. Her night form is relevantly less useful because of HP tanking becoming a downgrade instead of a sidegrade to shield tanking, and the channeling part of Mend got really powercrept compared to the shield restoration that Hildryn and Protea can provide. The CC part of her night form isn't in a great spot because of the spot CC is in general. Unlike Dante's 4th, Maim has nearly half of its base range, needs channeling to store up damage (that you, or teammates have to do, so it can't even be considered disruptive to others), and the damage the ability casts after channeling is not a slash proc, so it's useless against anything armored on SP without casting armor strip before it. If anything, it made it very apparent that Dante's 4th needs changing. But Dante players don't like hearing that. If Equinox got a LoS check on her one actually relevant ability (Dante has many others), then she'd need a rework or buff on all her other abilities. The state of the "DPS meta" already makes her night form not have many incentive to be used. With the way Equinox is currently, wouldn't be very smart or warranted to go after her just for the sake of "consistency". But then again DE nerfed the Halikar disarm for the sake of that even though there were probably 5 people using that weapon. So who knows what kind of feedback they consider reasonable at this point.

I think a better way to handle it would be reduced duration, maybe either scaling with ability duration or ability strength to some extent, so that having effective CC would need some reasonable investment. It should also be checked for each ability because for some warframes CC is a main role, and not an ability on the side, so for those it should be more effective. On topic, CC design has two extremes, one is where it trivializes everything, and the other extreme is where playing anything but DPS invalidates the incentive of other roles. Currently we're closer to the latter extreme because before that it was the other extreme. There should be a middle ground to go for. If eximi are supposed to be a threat that disincentivizes ability usage, then they should also make weapon buffs not do extra damage on them and abilities and exalted weapons do 0 damage against them. Ok I'm joking with this part just to show how discriminatory the current design is against pure CC frames and builds. Ironically the longer a mission goes on the more incentive there would be for CC, but instead it increases the number of eximi so it's like DE made sure CC frames really don't get a slice of the pie. I understand why the eximus rework happened, it just wasn't the right solution to the problem. It wasn't the middle ground.

Agreed. Using deadhead feels unnecessarily inconvenient against this faction, and certain weapons and warframe abilities relying on headshots make this problem relatively even more apparent. It seems like a very counterintuitive design choice to discourage precision. If anything, it should be encouraged and rewarded. Culverins are somehow even more annoying than the headless murmur because you do hit the "headshot" but get 0 reward if it's not for an incarnon weakspot requirement, and they seem to be the most common enemy type. It's most likely DE's way of damage control going "whoops maybe we made some incarnons a bit too strong but nerfing them directly would annoy the community" (but simultaneously forgot about the incarnons which only need bodyshots) "so let's add enemies where you can't hit headshots". Ironically, this hurts older than incarnon gear that rewarded headshots more than the incarnons themselves. Definitely needs changing. Somehow the arcane part seems even worse to me than the weapon and warframe interactions even though both are very relevant.

I tried to make a topic about this before. Not a problem there are more topics on this issue ofc. Mostly posting this here because I wrote about some other interactions which also has an issue with this design.

I've been trying to get this visual bug fixed since TNW, and it's still not fixed. I even bought a weapon skin for the whip because of it, but the projectiles themselves are still their original color.

I guess that might be more accurate wording. Chaos was a "soft CC" even before eximus rework (even if all enemies were affected, they would still possibly attack allies), so the rules not favoring Nyx make it seem like an arbitrary rule against her when it'd be the only thing really going for her besides the low ability strength investment defense strip she has, which isn't exactly functionally perfect. I think letting it work on Overguard wouldn't be that much of a problem because Chaos is just "soft CC". But CC needs a rework in general if DE wants to even partially walk away from the "DPS is the most valid role" design.

Well, looks like part of the idea for this topic is now going to be covered by DE apparently.

What if instead of Overguard defending your health completely, it'd prevent damage only that'd possibly down you? In other words you could still take damage to health with Overguard on, but you wouldn't be able to get damaged beyond 1HP as long you have Overguard. What would this mean? Possible pros: Overguard would be indirectly supported by armor, shield and other damage reduction sources as long player has HP to be damaged, instead of them invalidating each other. HP healing, shield regenerating, armor buffing, and Overguard generating forms of support could coexist with each other in a meaningful way that doesn't invalidate either. Rage and Hunter Adrenaline would function together with Overguard in a way that it doesn't disrupt energy regenerated from it. Possible Cons: Combat Discipline could damage the remaining 1 HP. Implying the damage would affect shields too, Styanax would constantly lose from his passive shield crit bonus. Unless he was given an extra thing to his passive that works around this. (Alternatively if it skipped to health for Styanax, it'd give meaning to Styanax's Tharros heal on Styanax himself, which normally has no purpose on a frame that uses either Shields or Overguard to defend themselves.) This is just an idea, not saying it should be changed to function like this. What are your thoughts on this?

Not sure if I could have word this any better. OP could probably also add "support" to the title. People were already not relying on surviving through HP a lot even before the shield rework, now with the shield rework in case of most frames it's a direct downgrade if not completely unviable after certain levels, especially in SP. Enemies can get like 99.9% DR from armor but the armor formula for players is around 91% because armor values fall off after that. The way level scales with enemy damage and enemy accuracy also doesn't help with this. HP and armor rework when? We could have so much more variety to choose from than Wisp, and having variety makes so much part of the fun in this game. Obviously not saying enemies should miss all shots or do no damage, but the way it is currently, surviving through shield gating literally works on every warframe (that has shields), whereas surviving through HP works on very visibly less, and that is exactly what's making support warframes that heal HP obsolete. Buff Oberon's Renewal DE, it takes more to maintain than vitality motes. The powercreep is way too obvious there to be just left ignored. You could even buff the armor gain to be multiply times what it is currently and Oberon would still not be OP. I guess we could also mention the support value warframes which spawn health orbs provide nowadays. I guess Equilibrium is there for those who use it? HP should be a sidegrade more often than a downgrade compared Shields. It's problematic for older support warframe design. Speaking of CC, Nyx gets only slightly more playtime than Caliban, and the people who still play her probably do it for that very unfun (in my opinion) Absorb augment, which even without it the ability is more boring and clunky than Hydroid's puddle prerework ever was. Yet another reminder to DE (if they do read this, but I doubt) that Chaos is a threat based CC therefore should directly work on Overguard like every other CC in the game working based on threat. But even outside that she could use a buff. Hopefully it's the next one that was hinted at a previous devstream. Shame for a warframe with such a cool design and cool cosmetics. I tried making Limbo fun the other day. It didn't work. Yes I know Silence disables eximus abilities but he'd need other things from helminth also to have a complete set of abilities. (Besides Cataclysm being clunky even outside how non eximi enemies interact with it. Either make the bubble not get gradually smaller, or add another smaller layer at the outer part of it that lets things be damaged from both sides, because currently you just waste ammo, and get annoyed if you use a bow whenever the enemy needs to take a step.) Neither him or Nyx were designed at a time where CC immune eximi were in the game and it should be clear to see, so their survivability was designed with a dependency on CC. People taking things to level cap shouldn't be a valid point of argument since any warframe that has shields can possibly do that. It doesn't mean their ability set is completely fine the way it is, nor that it is fun to use, and doesn't say much about the utility they provide. That is subjective and should be open for discussion how could it be improved.

This post is about pure status weapons with really low crit chance so they can't be built to be crit hybrids. Critical chance mods give extra crit for heavy attacks. Status chance or status chance elemental hybrid mods don't give any extra status chance for heavy attacks. Melee Duplicate is designed for crit status hybrid weapons (probably) that do yellow crits and apply status effects without entering the orange or red crit area. Melee Crescendo is mostly designed for heavy attack builds and rely on builds that can open enemies for finishers. It benefits crit relevantly more. Pure status got no legendary arcane with WITW. The only thing that's vaguely catering to pure status melee is Melee Influence which isn't a perfect solution for it either because some melee weapons have an innate uncombined elemental effect so it takes more modding to have electricity on the weapon at all. Not to mention crit status hybrid weapons might get more damage out of this arcane than pure status weapons. Pure status guns have no problem with a lack of crit chance because they have multishot and a lot higher fire rate compared to pure status melee, and typically have relevantly higher base damage thanks to SP arcanes so they can effectively stack DoT status effects. Another problem is IPS. Status melee with a higher stat weight into slash do better as status weapons, whereas melee with Impact or Puncture as main stats would need to rely on stacking elemental DoTs like Heat or Electricity, which they can't even nearly as effectively as guns for reasons mentioned earlier. This turns slower hitting melee with an Impact and Puncture weight nearly always mastery fodder weapons. Forced procs from stances can help, but they benefit crit and crit hybrids more once again. Impact status guns even have a mod that can turn impact procs into slash. Melee doesn't have that. Maybe it should have one. But then Puncture is still not in a great spot. (Enemies with a maximum stack of status procs are a problem to both.) Melee Exposure just shifts stat weight from status effects that can do damage. If you use green shards for armor strip, status guns are always a better option. There is Condition's Perfection, but the 100% extra status chance only does damage if it's a status effect that can do damage. I think an arcane that can turn Impact and Puncture statuses to slash in some way would be long overdue for pure status weapons and a possible solution to this problem. Maybe it'd proc when multiple statuses proc in one hit so it doesn't instead make crit or crit hybrid even stronger and make pure status melee left even more behind? What other solutions could you think of? Besides "not every weapon has to be strong", which is not really one, but yeah. I think this affects a lot of melee weapons in the game.

Either the headshot interactions need to work on the canisters, or culverins need a real weakspot that counts as a headshot. Same could be said about some of the other murmur enemies. After reading the wiki, it affects a lot more weapons than I thought. Managing to hit weakspots should be both a challenge and be rewarding. Adding enemies where you can't do it is counterproductive. If some of the indifference aren't going to get any that's probably ok, but Culverin canisters (and Severed Warden arms) currently feel like a bugged mechanic with how they don't interact with deadhead, weapons, and abilities normally interacting with weakspots. They should do more than charging already strong incarnon weapons.