Harutomata

True on the "Big Pants" (may or may not steal that nickname for that enemy). There aren't nearly enough of them to make much of a difference though. Previous time I checked Warden arms only works for charging incarnons though and not for the weakspot interactions on deadhead, weapons, and abilities which should work with them otherwise.

This post isn't primarily about charging incarnons, it's about other headshot dependent mechanics in the game like the deadhead arcane, and various weapon shot conditions and warframe ability interactions which get even less interactions from the faction. Culverin canisters and Severed Warden arms interact with incarnons which charge headshots but don't interact with any other headshot mechanic in the game. (I could make a list out of these things, but the main post covers many relevant examples of this already, and I'm sure the warframe wiki also has a list on headshot interactions.) Then there are those enemies which don't interact with either which are even worse, but even the previously mentioned enemies having their weakspots properly interact with older mechanics than incarnon would make a very relevant improvement with this issue.

Posting to this thread again after doing more deimos lab missions. Please give more murmur headshot interactions it's ridiculous how only 1/5 of the faction can work for deadhead and various weapon perks and warframe abilities. You're needlessly punishing a minority of the playerbase who still cares to aim when they're using specific gear.

What really annoys me on the Artemis Bow is the reload time, it makes the usage of the weapon feel so clunky I'd rather use other bows. It's nearly an entire second. If without the augment then Cernos Prime, if with the augment then there are other options for AoE that are less clunky to use. The no damage fall off doesn't make up for the unpleasant gameplay and I have no problem using bows or hitting headshots. Not that it's difficult when you can just alt fire a quiver to make them sleep. I didn't test it with Ivara yet, but most headshot interactions don't work on the Indifference which might include that augment. Either the murmur enemy has no head, or if they do have a weakspot they don't work for headshot mechanics. DE probably designed them this way to go against the new incarnons, but instead they just made older mechanics relying on headshots not work on them at all, and made players just use the incarnons which only need bodyshots instead.

Equinox doesn't deserve a nerf. Her night form is relevantly less useful because of HP tanking becoming a downgrade instead of a sidegrade to shield tanking, and the channeling part of Mend got really powercrept compared to the shield restoration that Hildryn and Protea can provide. The CC part of her night form isn't in a great spot because of the spot CC is in general. Unlike Dante's 4th, Maim has nearly half of its base range, needs channeling to store up damage (that you, or teammates have to do, so it can't even be considered disruptive to others), and the damage the ability casts after channeling is not a slash proc, so it's useless against anything armored on SP without casting armor strip before it. If anything, it made it very apparent that Dante's 4th needs changing. But Dante players don't like hearing that. If Equinox got a LoS check on her one actually relevant ability (Dante has many others), then she'd need a rework or buff on all her other abilities. The state of the "DPS meta" already makes her night form not have many incentive to be used. With the way Equinox is currently, wouldn't be very smart or warranted to go after her just for the sake of "consistency". But then again DE nerfed the Halikar disarm for the sake of that even though there were probably 5 people using that weapon. So who knows what kind of feedback they consider reasonable at this point.

I think a better way to handle it would be reduced duration, maybe either scaling with ability duration or ability strength to some extent, so that having effective CC would need some reasonable investment. It should also be checked for each ability because for some warframes CC is a main role, and not an ability on the side, so for those it should be more effective. On topic, CC design has two extremes, one is where it trivializes everything, and the other extreme is where playing anything but DPS invalidates the incentive of other roles. Currently we're closer to the latter extreme because before that it was the other extreme. There should be a middle ground to go for. If eximi are supposed to be a threat that disincentivizes ability usage, then they should also make weapon buffs not do extra damage on them and abilities and exalted weapons do 0 damage against them. Ok I'm joking with this part just to show how discriminatory the current design is against pure CC frames and builds. Ironically the longer a mission goes on the more incentive there would be for CC, but instead it increases the number of eximi so it's like DE made sure CC frames really don't get a slice of the pie. I understand why the eximus rework happened, it just wasn't the right solution to the problem. It wasn't the middle ground.

Agreed. Using deadhead feels unnecessarily inconvenient against this faction, and certain weapons and warframe abilities relying on headshots make this problem relatively even more apparent. It seems like a very counterintuitive design choice to discourage precision. If anything, it should be encouraged and rewarded. Culverins are somehow even more annoying than the headless murmur because you do hit the "headshot" but get 0 reward if it's not for an incarnon weakspot requirement, and they seem to be the most common enemy type. It's most likely DE's way of damage control going "whoops maybe we made some incarnons a bit too strong but nerfing them directly would annoy the community" (but simultaneously forgot about the incarnons which only need bodyshots) "so let's add enemies where you can't hit headshots". Ironically, this hurts older than incarnon gear that rewarded headshots more than the incarnons themselves. Definitely needs changing. Somehow the arcane part seems even worse to me than the weapon and warframe interactions even though both are very relevant.

I tried to make a topic about this before. Not a problem there are more topics on this issue ofc. Mostly posting this here because I wrote about some other interactions which also has an issue with this design.

I've been trying to get this visual bug fixed since TNW, and it's still not fixed. I even bought a weapon skin for the whip because of it, but the projectiles themselves are still their original color.

I guess that might be more accurate wording. Chaos was a "soft CC" even before eximus rework (even if all enemies were affected, they would still possibly attack allies), so the rules not favoring Nyx make it seem like an arbitrary rule against her when it'd be the only thing really going for her besides the low ability strength investment defense strip she has, which isn't exactly functionally perfect. I think letting it work on Overguard wouldn't be that much of a problem because Chaos is just "soft CC". But CC needs a rework in general if DE wants to even partially walk away from the "DPS is the most valid role" design.

Well, looks like part of the idea for this topic is now going to be covered by DE apparently.

What if instead of Overguard defending your health completely, it'd prevent damage only that'd possibly down you? In other words you could still take damage to health with Overguard on, but you wouldn't be able to get damaged beyond 1HP as long you have Overguard. What would this mean? Possible pros: Overguard would be indirectly supported by armor, shield and other damage reduction sources as long player has HP to be damaged, instead of them invalidating each other. HP healing, shield regenerating, armor buffing, and Overguard generating forms of support could coexist with each other in a meaningful way that doesn't invalidate either. Rage and Hunter Adrenaline would function together with Overguard in a way that it doesn't disrupt energy regenerated from it. Possible Cons: Combat Discipline could damage the remaining 1 HP. Implying the damage would affect shields too, Styanax would constantly lose from his passive shield crit bonus. Unless he was given an extra thing to his passive that works around this. (Alternatively if it skipped to health for Styanax, it'd give meaning to Styanax's Tharros heal on Styanax himself, which normally has no purpose on a frame that uses either Shields or Overguard to defend themselves.) This is just an idea, not saying it should be changed to function like this. What are your thoughts on this?

Not sure if I could have word this any better. OP could probably also add "support" to the title. People were already not relying on surviving through HP a lot even before the shield rework, now with the shield rework in case of most frames it's a direct downgrade if not completely unviable after certain levels, especially in SP. Enemies can get like 99.9% DR from armor but the armor formula for players is around 91% because armor values fall off after that. The way level scales with enemy damage and enemy accuracy also doesn't help with this. HP and armor rework when? We could have so much more variety to choose from than Wisp, and having variety makes so much part of the fun in this game. Obviously not saying enemies should miss all shots or do no damage, but the way it is currently, surviving through shield gating literally works on every warframe (that has shields), whereas surviving through HP works on very visibly less, and that is exactly what's making support warframes that heal HP obsolete. Buff Oberon's Renewal DE, it takes more to maintain than vitality motes. The powercreep is way too obvious there to be just left ignored. You could even buff the armor gain to be multiply times what it is currently and Oberon would still not be OP. I guess we could also mention the support value warframes which spawn health orbs provide nowadays. I guess Equilibrium is there for those who use it? HP should be a sidegrade more often than a downgrade compared Shields. It's problematic for older support warframe design. Speaking of CC, Nyx gets only slightly more playtime than Caliban, and the people who still play her probably do it for that very unfun (in my opinion) Absorb augment, which even without it the ability is more boring and clunky than Hydroid's puddle prerework ever was. Yet another reminder to DE (if they do read this, but I doubt) that Chaos is a threat based CC therefore should directly work on Overguard like every other CC in the game working based on threat. But even outside that she could use a buff. Hopefully it's the next one that was hinted at a previous devstream. Shame for a warframe with such a cool design and cool cosmetics. I tried making Limbo fun the other day. It didn't work. Yes I know Silence disables eximus abilities but he'd need other things from helminth also to have a complete set of abilities. (Besides Cataclysm being clunky even outside how non eximi enemies interact with it. Either make the bubble not get gradually smaller, or add another smaller layer at the outer part of it that lets things be damaged from both sides, because currently you just waste ammo, and get annoyed if you use a bow whenever the enemy needs to take a step.) Neither him or Nyx were designed at a time where CC immune eximi were in the game and it should be clear to see, so their survivability was designed with a dependency on CC. People taking things to level cap shouldn't be a valid point of argument since any warframe that has shields can possibly do that. It doesn't mean their ability set is completely fine the way it is, nor that it is fun to use, and doesn't say much about the utility they provide. That is subjective and should be open for discussion how could it be improved.

This post is about pure status weapons with really low crit chance so they can't be built to be crit hybrids. Critical chance mods give extra crit for heavy attacks. Status chance or status chance elemental hybrid mods don't give any extra status chance for heavy attacks. Melee Duplicate is designed for crit status hybrid weapons (probably) that do yellow crits and apply status effects without entering the orange or red crit area. Melee Crescendo is mostly designed for heavy attack builds and rely on builds that can open enemies for finishers. It benefits crit relevantly more. Pure status got no legendary arcane with WITW. The only thing that's vaguely catering to pure status melee is Melee Influence which isn't a perfect solution for it either because some melee weapons have an innate uncombined elemental effect so it takes more modding to have electricity on the weapon at all. Not to mention crit status hybrid weapons might get more damage out of this arcane than pure status weapons. Pure status guns have no problem with a lack of crit chance because they have multishot and a lot higher fire rate compared to pure status melee, and typically have relevantly higher base damage thanks to SP arcanes so they can effectively stack DoT status effects. Another problem is IPS. Status melee with a higher stat weight into slash do better as status weapons, whereas melee with Impact or Puncture as main stats would need to rely on stacking elemental DoTs like Heat or Electricity, which they can't even nearly as effectively as guns for reasons mentioned earlier. This turns slower hitting melee with an Impact and Puncture weight nearly always mastery fodder weapons. Forced procs from stances can help, but they benefit crit and crit hybrids more once again. Impact status guns even have a mod that can turn impact procs into slash. Melee doesn't have that. Maybe it should have one. But then Puncture is still not in a great spot. (Enemies with a maximum stack of status procs are a problem to both.) Melee Exposure just shifts stat weight from status effects that can do damage. If you use green shards for armor strip, status guns are always a better option. There is Condition's Perfection, but the 100% extra status chance only does damage if it's a status effect that can do damage. I think an arcane that can turn Impact and Puncture statuses to slash in some way would be long overdue for pure status weapons and a possible solution to this problem. Maybe it'd proc when multiple statuses proc in one hit so it doesn't instead make crit or crit hybrid even stronger and make pure status melee left even more behind? What other solutions could you think of? Besides "not every weapon has to be strong", which is not really one, but yeah. I think this affects a lot of melee weapons in the game.

Either the headshot interactions need to work on the canisters, or culverins need a real weakspot that counts as a headshot. Same could be said about some of the other murmur enemies. After reading the wiki, it affects a lot more weapons than I thought. Managing to hit weakspots should be both a challenge and be rewarding. Adding enemies where you can't do it is counterproductive. If some of the indifference aren't going to get any that's probably ok, but Culverin canisters (and Severed Warden arms) currently feel like a bugged mechanic with how they don't interact with deadhead, weapons, and abilities normally interacting with weakspots. They should do more than charging already strong incarnon weapons.

When you put it in that perspective, "use your guns" feels a bit biased when many caster frames don't deal with Overguard with weapons either. Makes it seem like CC role was targeted in specific. I do kinda see the reason it was added but there are few problems. CC frames weren't released with CC immune enemies being around at the time. CC was their means of defense mostly and in some cases even their main role. The other problem being the rules regarding which abilities can affect overguard are very inconsistent. (Decoy, Mallet, Razorflies are CC on the same base with Chaos but Chaos does nothing in a scenario where enemies all have Overguard because it unexplainably doesn't directly affect them. It's an arbitrary rule.) Another problem from this is when people suggest rework for CC frames with some damage dealing in mind it gets shut down with "not every frame has to be a dps frame". Then choose one. Either CC needs another look or they do need to be viable to be DPS frames. If someone is going to pick an argument on this issue, they should pick 1, not 2 because then they contradict each other. Personally I think it's CC that needs another look because the increased shoehorning of "DPS your way out of everything" isn't friendly for either variety or old warframes. Warframe should be soloable so it shouldn't necessarily require the established RPG roles, but they should be able to do their purpose better. The current way is closer to the other end of the extreme. Besides CC, healing isn't in a great spot right now either. It's not that black and white, and I hope DE is eventually going to see there's a middle ground to go for.

I think it shouldn't be an exilus because it's not really utility and relevantly stronger than exilus mods that do more than just utility (for example those 15 percent ability strength mods). But I do see your point and it's just my opinion on the exilus part. On the other hand it would be very helpful for new players to have an access to this mod earlier into the game without trading.

Are you telling me this is the reason I didn't hear the iconic voicelines like "My warframe is strong" since the update? Even if they made the drifter voice actor do those lines, it's never going to have that same vibe and inflection that I'm so used to. Even outside that it feels like they just changed the characters' personalities in a way, and I don't like it either. I think both the old and new voicelines are high quality, but the former ones for the operator were a lot more fitting than the drifter ones. I rarely use uppercase on these forums, in fact, this might be the first time I do it so.. PUT THE ORIGINAL VOICE ACTING BACK!

To elaborate a bit more, the post is about the team utility Inaros could possibly provide, not about self heal (that Arcane Grace does better anyway), or damage, or his endurance.

None of this is relevant to the post.

It's really not if you've actually read the post. Unless you're replying to the person before you, because they were actually not talking about Scarab Swarm, but 2 other abilities which are now arguably less clunky, and I did claim I like the rework, but this problem in particular actually added less building freedom than more. Tank only vs tank with some support capabilities. In terms of variety it's objectively a downgrade to nerf the healing part of Scarab Swarm. Most of the abilities functionally improved, but this one actually does one thing less in trade for slightly more efficient armor strip. I'm not one of those people who thinks Inaros rework should be reverted, because it's an upgrade for the tank playstyle, but the healing part of Scarab Swarm being added back would definitely not make the frame worse, would it now? So no, it's not one of those posts. Also Hydroid puddle wasn't a great mechanic and Nyx's Absorb should be changed for the same reason. More variety in a game like Warframe is always better than less.

I always liked the idea of Nyx stealing defenses with her 2nd ability more than just removing them. Spawning universal orbs for killing the enemies within the ability duration would also provide more utility to the team without changing Nyx into a dps frame. Currently the debuff is only temporary and doesn't have any meaningful interaction with ability duration. For Chaos I think it'd do better if ability strength increased the damage enemies do to each other, and if the normal threat CC rules applied to it correctly. All the other threat CCs work on Overguard but Nyx's doesn't. (To those who've seen me write this about Chaos, yes, I'm going to mention this on every post where Nyx is mentioned, because it should be considered a bug.) I think her 4th is like Hydroid's puddle before he got reworked and it should be changed. Personally I strongly dislike Assimilate, but that part should probably stay for the people who like that augment. On devstream 178 it was hinted some warframe is next on the list for a rework, hopefully it's Nyx considering if you exclude all the frames which released in 2023 from statistics then in 2023 Nyx was the only frame people played less than Caliban.

Culverin canisters might work for charging incarnons, but they don't work for a variety of other things and it's needlessly problematic considering they're like the most common enemy unit on the new faction. Want to use Deadhead on any weapon? Better hope Arcocanids spawn because you're not getting any procs on these. Hitting the arcane that rewards precision is quite counterproductive. Especially since the recoil decrease on max rank makes a lot weapons more pleasant to use. The arcane not proccing on damage over time effects a headshot caused is already a disadvantage on the arcane, there didn't need to be another one. Ivara's Concentrated Arrow? Nope. Knell? Get ready to reload because even if you hit both canisters, you're not getting the buff. Harrow's Thurible? Nope. Lycath's hunt? Also nope. The canisters don't interact with headshot mechanics even if 1 shot to the canister oneshots the unit. To make this worse some of the fragmented enemies don't even have weakspots that could possibly count as headshot. Currently I don't remember if Severed Wardens proc these things though they do have weakspots. But if they don't proc on each arm or on the third on these mechanics that's yet another thing that could use a change. Apparently they don't seem to work with the Knell so I assume they don't work with other abilities with headshot interactions either. I don't know if the goal was making incarnons take more time and effort to charge against this faction, but this design indirectly hurts other previously added choices a lot more which weren't even nearly as strong because of seemingly arbitrary rules. Even for incarnons, weakspots which require more precision would be better than none. (Also, people aren't going to challenge themselves more with the incarnon difficulties. They're just going to use the Torid instead which doesn't require hitting weakspots. But that's a smaller detail.)

Scarab Swarm used to heal allies before the rework, and I was hoping it'd be a more consistent part of the ability with the rework, but instead that part of it simply got completely removed. While Inaros himself might not need the healing from it that much, but it could heal allies, including hijack objectives, defense objectives and extractors, which with a bit of ability range could give him more variety of playstyles, and variety of possible builds is one of the most interesting parts of Warframe. I think it should be added back, of course in some balanced means. Sure Arcane Grace can keep me healed, but I'd trade that for an other arcane and Scarab Swarm having more utility, including team utility. One of the most criticized parts of Inaros previous kit was that he was a "selfish" frame, so it seems a bit tone deaf to remove one of the parts of it which was the opposite of that instead of improving it. I can see some helminth options which could work as a bandaid, but still. Not to sound harsh of course, I think the other parts of his rework was handled really well.

I liked playing Chaos Nyx before Arbitration Drone rework and Overguard. (Though Chaos basically should be considered bugged because it's the only threat based CC in the game that doesn't work on Overguard, other ones being Loki's Decoy, Octavia's Mallet, Titania's razorflies.) In order for CC to be relevant, player survivability would need to be reworked so that CC wouldn't be a downgrade, but sidegrade means of survivability. Coincidentally this is the exact same issue why HP healing frames are becoming outdated. Shield gate is there now, and many warframes die after certain levels from any instance of damage to health. Maybe it'd be time for an armor rework? I mean player armor can get like 91% DR at most, but enemies can get like 99.9% because they use different formulas. I think it'd be nice if CC and healing roles were relevant again. "DPS everything out" works, but it lacks variety and creativity.