Mayhem-Ivory

Why did they even pick 1 billion? The issue is lag caused by integer overflow, which happens beyond 2,147,483,647 points of damage. What kind of moron doesn't start their game by - just in case - adding a universal 2,1 billion damage cap? Why is there only one ability that has a damage cap? Why is the damage cap half of what it could be? Why does this game not have any failsaves; must the same issue really creep up again in future updates? And most importantly: Why do they keep trying to gaslight the community instead of communicating with it?

Out of curiosity from a guy who tries to solo-make his own stuff; what's it called, where can I check it out? While I understand some people's rebuttal that that is all just sentiments and not constructive criticism: "It feels bad" is still a very valuable sentiment. I saw a S#&$show go down recently in the DnD5e/OneDnD community where lots of people were quick to yap "constumers are good at finding the problem, but bad at finding a solution" - but now right here people are being dismissed for pointing out the issue without offering a solution. You could probably make a list just as large with people giving good reasoning for why LoS is bad for Tragedy and offering a number of solutions. The only reason those posts didn't get hundreds of likes is because they take longer to write and thus are posted later and seen by less people. So yea, while DE is admittedly good at noticing outrage (how could they miss it), they should put in more effort to properly parse the different feedback channels. From what I can tell, the forum, reddit and youtube are all still buzzing with complaints, even if it has gotten a lot less.

Eclipse was stated to be set at 30% to be consistent with Roar. Parity was the intention, even if it failed. Eclipse was stated to be set at 90% to be consistent with other forms of DR. Parity was the intention, even if it was limited to Mirage. All abilities that provide damage or DR have some additional effect. In the case of Eclipse, the additional effect is being able to switch between damage and DR. There is no further additional benefit to either effect individually. Whether you consider that to be a strong or weak additional effect can be up for debate, but Eclipse does as much "one thing" as all the other abilities with similar effect; you do not gain both effects simultaneously. The stats required for builds is largely irrelevant for consistency; they are still consistently placed at the same grade of effectiveness across most frames. The only real exception remaining right now is Trinity's Blessing; there's also Baruuk, but he is a complicated situation with three different DR sources, one of which is consistent with others at 90%. Of course nothing exists in a vaccum. That is why I compared Eclipse with abilities that are part of the Helminth system - to showcase it was no longer an appealing option. It has failed to become the meaningful alternative that it should have been.

Of course fairness isn't typically used to describe the comparison between two game features, it is a word focused around people. "Create parity and provide a balanced set of options within the subsystem of gameplay that is helmith infusions" just doesn't have the same ring to it. I think my appreviating that to "fair" is personally reasonable for the discussion at hand.

The community should understand at this point that clearly DE Momaw responds to things that can be addressed immediately. Things like "what exactly is the issue", "we have that on our list" or "I just checked and cant replicate it". Topics that concern the general direction of the game and require a lot of internal consideration can obviously not be responded to by the person who's job is managing the forum. Case in point: they addressed the Arcan Titron and Nezha Augment without ever responding to any comments regarding them. The DE design team and DE Momaw are (surprise) different people.

Even if you magically make LoS work perfectly all the time with no cost to performance, it has no place on Dante's Tragedy. It makes his playstyle inflexible and unfun. Dark Verse is an enabler, Tragedy is a detonator - being unable to detonate the procs you've spread feels awful. Procs spread by Dark Verse need to always be detonated by Tragedy, there cannot be a line of sight check! Frankly, thats bad design. Reduce the range if you have to, or have Dark Verse apply a mark that makes enemies possible to target through walls with Tragedy.

Okay so, two points: The concerns that people had when Dante first came out were, as far as I could tell, always about the Overguard and not the damage, much less the LoS. If people are worried about "kill-stealing" or Dante "nuking the map" before they can do anything themselves, that is indeed only the damage of Tragedy. That is because the status detonation is reliant mostly on Dark Verse, which has less range and uses LoS. Concerning why people are now asking specifically for the removal of either the damage or reduction of the range: DE Steve & Rebecca said on DevShort 11 that a damage ability with such range is unprecedented, and that that is why they added LoS. They compared Tragedy to Xaku's The Vast Untime which has a range of 25m instead of Dante's 30m. Personally I'm pretty sure they were talking about the range, regardless of if the damage comes from the ability itself or the status detonation; but a lot of folks seem to have interpreted that as "as long as either damage or range are gone, it is no longer a high-range damage ability". The part about "low-level nuking" is conjecture by the community, based on the statements about long-range damage abilities and the limitations on the status detonation due to Dark Verse.

Remove LoS -> Reduce Range/base damage Copying/rewording this from my forum post. DE, my guys, if the range-damage was the issue, why didn't you just say so? Simply "we feel as a damage ability without LoS, the range of Tragedy is too big. we are considering reducing the range or adding LoS." The community would love to work with you on fixing issues. If Xaku's The Vast Untime is fine at 25m without LoS, and Dante's Tragedy is too much with 30m, then just reduce it to 25m! This entire drama could have been avoided; and in fact, you can quite easily make it up to the community! Dante's playstyle has an enabler and a detonator; and the detonator not reaching enemies puts a severe dampener on Dante's playability. If reducing the range of Tragedy down to The Vast Untime's 25m or even down to Dark Verse's 20m removes the need for a LoS check, then that is simply the correct action to take! Better yet if you could simply remove the 6,500 base damage and make it purely a detonator. So please do that. Thank you guys; lot's of love~

I have more thoughts on this topic, and I plan to respond to your OP if I find the time, but I wanted to jump in here real quick. There is many different way to handle it precisely, but I think the order of operation is more important: (immunity erosion) If Overguard enemis were immune to CC for even just 5-10 seconds, I'm not sure it would exactly fix the problem. (immunity adaptation) If inversely Overguard enemies only became immune to CC after 5-10 seconds of being affected by it, that would mean that CC gives you a small time window in which you have to deal with them - or face the consequences of failing to do so. I think the latter would be more in the spirit of what DE wants them to be; but I do worry that doing it that way would be enough to trivialize the Eximus again.

This is a completely different situation I believe. The overguard wasn't much of a nerf really, since the cap remained the same. Meanwhile giving Tragedy less range than Dark Verse wouldn't even make sense. You wouldn't be able to "benefit from tragedy" regardless of range mods if they did that. They'd make both Dark Verse and Tragedy 15m long before putting Tragedy at 10m.

I don't like it either, I'd much rather they reduce or even remove the base damage and make it purely a status detonator. But if it means I can get rid of LoS, I'd be willing to pay that price.

I just watched the DevShort 11, and ... DE, my guys, if the range was the issue, why didn't you just say so? Simply "we feel as a damage ability without LoS, the range of Tragedy is too big. we are considering reducing the range or adding LoS." The community would love to work with you on fixing issues. If Xaku's The Vast Untime is fine at 25m without LoS, and Dante's Tragedy is too much with 30m, then just reduce it to 25m! This entire drama could have been avoided; and in fact, you can quite easily make it up to the community! Dante's playstyle has an enabler and a detonator; and the detonator not reaching enemies puts a severe dampener on Dante's playability. If reducing the range of Tragedy down to The Vast Untime's 25m or even down to Dark Verse's 20m removes the need for a LoS check, then that is simply the correct action to take! So please do that. Thank you guys; lot's of love~ 😘

Good point, that's where they said it. Thanks!

Afaik most objects have very low health though, so reducing it from a frankly insane 6,500 (Oberon's Reckoning deals 1250) to something tame like 500 or even just 50 (according to the wiki, normal storage crates have 10 hp) would still allow for boxbreaking while making it unproblematic for "nuking".

Agreed 100%. If they have to go with this complicated LoS system, it should at least be consistent. Some percentage of range sounds reasonable for that. I just imagine this being pasted on Khora as is where 5m is 100% of her Whipclaw range; and then compare to Dante where 5m is 17% of his Tragedy - and then it changes relatively if you mod range. Personally I'd prefer some sort of LoS punch-through over just ignoring LoS only close to you. Something like if the object(s) that block LoS make up only 10% of the ability range, they get ignored. Or they could even do a LoS fall-off, where the damage/ effect is reduced by 2% for every 1% of the range that is blocked by objects. It's not like they don't have the tech for that: there's already a complete punch-through system, complete with differentiating between body and object PT, infinite PT against bodies only or including objects, and even infinitely thick barriers in the Profit Taker fight that can only be passed with infinite PT.

The strange thing is, DE never made a statemen like that. From what I've seen, that is entirely an idea that has sprung up within the defenders of the nerf within the community. If it is a reasoning held by the design team, they're just equally wrong in my book. That being said, I completely agree with removing the hybrid nature of the ability. Rest & Rage uses energy color when it could have been Tap/Hold, and that isn't even a particularily strong ability. There is no reason why Solar Eclipse/ Lunar Eclipse could not follow the same logic. Even if that isn't able to "buy back" a relevant amount of power for the ability (while I personally don't agree with the idea, it must be able to equate to power if the ability was reduced because of it), I don't see much loss in not having that flexibility as I am yet to see a good case for using it.

It's nice of you finally fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely. Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with: Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible! to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. Dark Verse already had LoS, thus forcing you to "be active" by running around to find enemies. The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone! And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability/playstyle can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (something like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it. With the old Tragedy, you would "actively" run around, pro-actively seek out groups to tag with Dark Verse, and inter-actively manage your casting to limit the energy you consume. This is all gone now. Now you "actively" spam abilities on whats infront of you, with no forethought about when to use what. I gave you the weekend, but I'm not going to just let you get away with this nonsense. Let me just give an analogy for what you did with Dante and his Tragedy: You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom. All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad. Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spent if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them and within range. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically. Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies. It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset. There is ways to solve this, but it must be done in the spirit of Dante's playstyle. Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce or even remove the initial damage that is independant of status effects (seriously, 6500? could just be 500). Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Limit its effect to Slash procs or even just Dark Verse exclusively. Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce it's range from 30 to 25 or even 20 meters to match Dark Verse more closely. Keep the LoS for other player's procs, but add a "marking" effect to Dark Verse that allows tagged enemies to be attacked with Tragedy through walls. Give the LoS Punch Through, allowing it to ignore LoS in a limited manner; something like 5 meters scaling with Ability Range. Remove LoS from Tragedy. Increase the casting cost of both Light Verse and Dark Verse from 25 to 35 or even 50. That would be the easiest way to address the "issue" of his abilities being cast "back to back". Other issues can be addressed independently. The damage increases and overguard increases you are promising here don't help with the actual gameplay issues Dante has. If the Overguard is too overbearing, just have the maximum and gain scale with enemy level. This could be a flat value drawn from surrounding enemies or a damage absorption multiplier like many other frames (think a mix of Rhino's Iron Skin and Harrow's Covenant). The damage of Wordwarden is not the issue. Rather, it doesn't really add anything beyond damage. It has the same elements as Noctua (not that Noctua could benefit from more elements, since Galvaniced Shot doesn't work correctly on it). Neither can it be used to benefit from Tome mods (neither Invocations nor Canticles). Tome mods are supposed to be the specialty of Noctua, but since the Wordwarden is just a damage copy of it, there is not synergy. Pageflight gives zero agency to the player. It is also often ineffective - the damage multiplier doesn't do anything unless it is on the right enemy. The birds could fly towards the reticle when aiming down sight (similar to Sevagoth's Reap; in fact I had a bug in the simulacrum where they briefly functioned that way), or they could focus their attacks on enemies tagged by Dark Verse.

Let me just explain for a moment what you did with Dante and his Tragedy: You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom. All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad (even the Aegrit after the ammo nerf). Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spend if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically. Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies. It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset. The way you guys went about it just makes me disappointed.

This is a joke. It's nice of you fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely. Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with: Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible! to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone! And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

I believe you are missing the point. This is a red mark; it is evidence that no thought or testing went into that change. It reeks of knee-jerk reaction; otherwise such a blatant mistake wouldn't have made it into the game to begin with. You claimed to be listening to the community; and yet even though the community was in total agreement for the first time in ages, you did the exact thing people asked you not to. You touched Tragedy - not just that, you made it unfun. And that after you yourself stated in that same hotfix that Dante's damage was not an issue to begin with. All the while removing Pageflights interaction for ... dealing too much damage. The reason people are posting this is not to make you aware of just how bad the LoS is; they are posting it because it is a big red handprint that shows how thoughtless and without reason this change was from the perspective of the community. It shows you are playing fast and loose, rather than trying to understand the situation. It's a sign of people losing trust in your ability to properly address this situation. Which is a real shame with how much goodwill the new team had gotten with the community due to all the recent Quality of Life improvements.

The LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy are a joke. Nobody wants you to "fix" the line of sight. It needs to go completely. Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with: Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible! to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it. All 4 currently active people in my clan have independently decided to stop playing Dante. Good job. We're going back to Kullervo, Dagath, Wisp, and Saryn respectively. And hey, while I'm at it: What gives with nerfing Pageflight? You do realise that ability can be used with weapons rather than Tragedy, right? You do realise those birds are AI controlled and single target, and that they cannot be controlled actively, right? You do realise you could have just written "makes status effects more likely to occur and makes them more lethal" into the ability, right? And what gives with nerfing the new Nezha augment? It's entire point is spreading damage in an AoE! If there is no AoE, there is no point in using the augment! Changing the base stats is completely ridiculous. A -25% modded value I could see; but even then, the augment already takes away a mod slot that I could have used for range! This is the worst "balance change" I've seen in all my years. I'm normally quite okay with changing things for the sake of balance, but this was just neutering things for not reason.

This is a joke. Nobody wants you to "fix" the line of sight. It needs to go completely. Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with: Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible! to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

Yea it's absolutely the Overguard, and it's to the point where I might even see someone call it Disruptive or Dominant. What helped me when thinking about it was this: most frames already have a method they use to survive. They use CC, or move around, use invisibility and damage reduction - and when they mess up they die. But with Dante around, its like a hand covering them; it all suddenly doesn't matter anymore. Your Damage Reduction, Adaptation and Armor? Doesnt apply to Overguard, but there's so much of it it doesnt matter anyway. Make a mistake? Doesn't matter, you've got a safety-net; in fact you can just stop playing and you wont die either. What I'd call it personally is "oppressive"; it takes away your agency. It shouldn't get nuked from orbit of course, and making it an augment would just return us to the old "bandaid augment" times; but limiting it shouldn't be an issue - Dante will still be a welcome sight in a squad even if he only gives 10k Overguard instead of 60k.

Barely any abilities can still heal objectives, especially stationary ones; which is honestly a shame, since it just reinforces the entire "kill everything asap" meta. Overguard from Light Verse would not be a good idea though. Overguard has a 0.5 sec damage gate, so this might make them outright unkillable. I'd personally actually keep the healing a %, just reduce it to something like 50+5%; otherwise the health of the defense target is going to be so much more than the healing you can provide, it would be pointless to even try.

I really wish they added the loot-share (or at least the reactant share) from Railjack into all game modes. I get that they want to prevent leeching and afk, but those are already solved by the game checking for activity; and the QoL from not missing reactant can not be understated.