[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Dependence on a mod for a frame, indicates that the mod is good. It is excellent if it complements the frame! Rolling Guard is one of them, and I aspire to get it someday!

But I genuinely feel that your decision to replace Rift torrent out of all the other mods in your build suggests that Rift torrent is a useless mod, which is the entire reason why I started this thread if you had read it. It is useless, compared to the other mods you have for Limbo! And the damage boost you get from it, is clearly not useful. And with your playstyle, you do not appear to be dragging many mobs into the rift to make good use of it, so I feel that your decision to replace it with Rolling Guard is a very good move.  

I fail to see how you have demonstrated that Rift torrent is a good mod, seeing as how you deem it unnecessary yourself.

Maybe you could test out Rift torrent and see how much your damage increases on mobs? I don't care if you one shot them. 

 

Having your own playstyle for Limbo is fantastic. However, consistently moving cataclysm with your stasis, genuinely does not seem to be for me. I might give it a go with Rolling Guard, but I am pretty sure everyone who plays or has played Limbo, started with that playstyle for combat lol.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Lmao, gotcha.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

rolling gaurd is a must for limbo in my opinion and it took the place of rift surge in my build

 

So we DO agree then. Rift torrent looks like a lovely augment. But no one actually needs it. In other words, it is useless. 

Thank you for your affirmation.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

You know for someone who doesn't main limbo, you still really know how limbo's 3 works pretty damn well birdobash

22 minutes ago, birdobash said:

slowly take out 2-4 per second at most

 

22 minutes ago, birdobash said:

rift surging enemies in a cataclysm means they're now frozen outside of your cataclysms control

 

Exactly! And the rift torrent augment would actually reward you for doing this! It doesn't scale with enemy level, armour or hp. It scales off of how many mobs you can rift surge. Which imo is non-beneficial to Limbo's kill speed and detrimental a practice to the teammates he has.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

6 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Its probably best you stick to one sentence questions for your own sake. You make more sense that way.

For you? Yes, apparently so.

6 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

No I do not use him for eso but if I did I'd go all range and duration, so my four covered the entire map, keep stasis up and kill everything with my OP weapons.

Lmao. Ok then. So you haven't tried doing that. 

I am guessing you do 2 + 4 for everything?

6 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Also, I dont think rift torrent is unnecessary either. It's a fine augment. 

 Do you use it? Do you need it to kill mobs with your op weapons? 

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

That's too much to read dude, but I skimmed a spot where you were talking about minimum duration build...dont do that. I know the idea behind that build but its trash. You have to use weapons with limbo. That's how he kills. He has no ability that kills. That should be obvious. 

What? Where in the minimum duration build does he kill with abilities??? He uses weapons in it as well.  .-. What build are you thinking about?

 

My point in fact is exactly this which you seem to have missed until now - "You have to use weapons with limbo." 

So we are in agreement then that Rift torrent is a completely unnecessary mod for your combat build correct?

 

I really can't see how I can prompt a discussion if you're not gonna read the post though. I'll ask 1 question at a time I guess - just for you.

Do you use Limbo in ESO and kill efficiency runs?

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Oh yes! New replies! ^.^ Thank you very much tissot555 and birdobash for replying! I apologise for leaving out some information from my limited testing and if I have been misinformed!

Firstly to birdobash.  About your point regarding your point about the numbers increasing damage by 550% or damage reduction by 95% being limited to light intensity, I was aware of this the very day after I had initially tested this out in the simulacrum (far before making this post). However, the reason I did not bring this up is simply because I gave her a go in somewhere where I thought light intensity was not nearly as bright or dark as simulacrum, being, Hydron in Sedna, and in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. I had noticed that in those 2 areas despite the light intensity varying along a spectrum (likely with more node-like values not really a continuous spectrum of possible values imo), that my mirage was still very much getting 550% damage increase in the lit areas in the game regions, BUT it was according to the UI, and I thought the UI would have reflected that...

I am not entirely sure if the damage difference was very much reduced when I tried it out there, for I did not do any sampling or recording of damage numbers of any sort. I generally found that mirage was definitely killing mobs at a far greater rate than Limbo was.

However, as I had mentioned before, I very clearly do not believe that Rift torrent should be buffed to the point whereby Limbo is able to attain damage equal to Mirage. Mirage with clones has some survivability but not nearly as ridiculous as Limbo's. My comparison to Mirage was possibly premature and I must apologise for that. Perhaps she really isn't as ridiculously strong as the UI demonstrates. 

 

Now onto you tissot555. It is truly unfortunate that you could not understand a single thing that I was talking about. Let me attempt to make my main point clearer with a couple of questions:

 

1. Does Limbo have any place in a kills/s mission? Elite Sanctuary Onslaught missions come to mind for this. If he does, please explain to me how he is capable of doing so in a team, without hindering them (typical hindrances being mobs placed in stasis). Or perhaps you do it solo? If that is the case, that is amazing and I would love to learn from you 🙂

2. Can Limbo not get hit a single time AND be a combat frame? I haven't asked single more obvious question than that - Of course he can! HOWEVER, can he do so with any semblence of speed in kills/s missions? My answer would be no. Not with enemy scaling. Monsters get higher hp and armour with scaling (presumably), Limbo has the same damage output. 

3. Define god. God in a videogame. Being able to freeze time? Of course I love doing that too. I love not getting hit. If that is all Limbo can do, I would still love him. He does it incredibly well. But neither can you hit them. You can drag them in with your rift surge and maintain stasis, and hit them sure. But nothing about Limbo's damage scales with enemy levels. Not one thing. Which leads me to my 4th point.

4. If Limbo is not technically built for combat, why does he even need more damage in an augment? And to top it all off, why in the world does his damage mod augment increase with the NUMBER of mobs inside his rift? Limbo has had a polarizing effect on the community precisely do to unintentional and intentional mismanagement of mob migration between the real and rift plane. Dragging more and more mobs for Limbo to output more damage onto higher level mobs means he is dragging more mobs AWAY from ally fire. That isn't good, that's theatrically frightening in grouped game scenarios.

 

Additionally, about your response in particular...

On 2019-01-26 at 7:35 AM, (PS4)tissot555 said:

I could play any length of endless and not get hit a single time. It's like playing the game in the simulacrum with the enemies frozen. If you can't turn Limbo into a combat frame, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't even get your argument.

Please educate me on what combat mod set-up you have. It worries me. As you have mentioned here that you are "playing the game ... with enemies frozen", I must ask,  do you use stasis to kill mobs as a combat Limbo? I understand you must have missed me saying this but my reference to Limbo as a combat frame was with respect to the minimum duration build for Limbo. I genuinely believe that this is probably one of the best ways to go on killing sprees with teammates without intruding on their respective sessions. In terms of speed, I would also contend that this is the fastest way to do so, also the knockdown effects are pretty neat too. I am not sure if you have tried it out yourself but I can link you to a video if you would like right here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_wbXR1O5Jc    In case, you miss it within his admittedly long video, it starts at 18:40. The minimum duration build that is.

On 2019-01-26 at 7:35 AM, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Do you want all warframes to be exactly alike. Same armor, same health pool, same energy pool, same cast times, same energy costs per power.

Now this is QUITE the leap you made. I did my best to avoid sounding like I was wishing for this by continuously mentioning that I was not hoping for Limbo to become stronger or even roughly equivalent to frames like Mirage or Saryn at scaling with enemy levels. Now I admit I wrongly interpreted Mirage's Eclipse ability as a really strong ability. Mirage would probably benefit more from an ability that allowed her to scale in damage with enemy levels as well perhaps. I cannot possibly be astute enough to realise all the frames' potential abilities' and properly ascertain if my dear Limbo compares well to them, mostly because I have not had that much time, and I do not main other frames. But what I think I can very easily do is simply observe the metas in this game and how they arise.

No, I obviously do not want all warframes to be the same. Same armor, health/energy pool, cast times, energy costs per ability. No. Perhaps you could let me know if you ever find a player who wants that?

What I DO want is for all warframes to have some sense of purpose in a mission. Not every frame should necessarily be able to do every single type of mission alone, but they should be capable of doing a somewhat decent job in them regardless, or perhaps in an extreme case, just not conceivably be suitable at all for certain mission types. Limbo excels at alot of mission types. Kills/s missions solo or in a team, does NOT seem to be one of them. And I would be completely fine with that, as I have reiterated that numerous times if you would kindly read my previous posts. But the rift torrent augment gives players like me, the mistaken impression that Limbo can be built for that - that referring to killing efficiency missions (kills/s missions). He cannot aid in that, he hinders it.

However, I believe that kills/s missions are possibly a somewhat withering section of the game. Who goes for ESO runs? Only a certain number of frames typically are brought into these missions.

Even certain frames are possibly overpowered or underpowered. Maybe Ember should get a buff. Maybe Saryn should not be so broken that having 2 or more in a mission tends to break the game. But I wouldn't know, since I have not played them, and do not quite plan to.

 

In case anyone misses it again, I would like to finally clarify one more time. I do not think Limbo needs another buff. His place in warframe is rather solid already, and he has incredible synergy once you get to know how rift surge works. But Rift torrent, as an augment, in my opinion is somewhat of a failure. Limbo still depends on his weapons to kill mobs, and the rift torrent augment gives a boost in damage that is not quite reliable for any mission type that he is not already good at, and fails to make him any much better at missions which he is not. Namely one- kill efficiency missions. But then again, alot of frames are not.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Not sure if there is anything else I can do to prompt a discussion to have DE consider this... 

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Actually with the minimum duration build, Banish's timer keeps running out, which auto banishes radially outwards of the enemies. That is in of itself a way Limbo can keep dragging more enemies consistently without wasting energy. On kills if I am not mistaken, Rift surge DOES transfer to outside enemies and gives you the buffs, but as you said, you can't actually manage that one or recast it, it lasts for however long Rift surge lasts, which for a minimum duration build is not long. If for whatever reason you haven't given it a go I'd recommend you try it 😄 Unfortunately, you got one thing definitely right, Rift surge if I am not wrong, does NOT spread as well as spores from Saryn -  I think. And even if it did, that would mean I am pulling that many mobs into the rift... and not even killing them yet. No one's gonna like that @-@ 

 

Honestly, to avoid that issue I genuinely feel that a little Rift torrent buff would solve the issue. Limbo is in no way a weak frame. But he is a slow killer compared to other frames (the general 3 I think that everyone uses for Control missions or ESO >.>), which makes him removed from the picture of kills/s. And killing things fast would be nice with Limbo imo. He wouldn't need to be as fast as the meta frames, but just not that slow...

 

Also I would like to promptly clarify on CazadorDeWulf's point about the idea that " there is actually no point to the mod and it helps him almost not at all in the playstyle that 99% of people play him in"; I would nonetheless claim that Limbo is an excellent high level survival mission frame with a minimum duration build. His shortcoming is that he does NOT kill nearly as fast as other meta frames for kills/s, and furthermore, it is far too slow a way to kill mobs to maintain efficiency in most kill control missions you see in bounties and ESO... Unless one did a big bubble + stasis + Rift torrent... I have no idea if that is functional to be honest, but it would also leave alot of mobs exiting from the cataclsym within the rift, untouched... and then you have a problem of residual mobs left behind, and sheltered from other players if they are not within the rift themselves.

Furthermore, your initial point about "hav[ing] not found a single situation in which my weapon wasn't doing enough damage already" is precisely the issue I feel I have with Limbo as a combat frame, if you were to choose to adopt him as such. Limbo is completely dependent on using endgame weapons to kill everything. And as it stands alone, that is absolutely fine. As I mentioned before, none of this would have been an issue to me, if Rift torrent simply was not an option. Limbo would be an amazing frame for me, for every mission except one whereby I had to get certain number of kills/s. But it IS. And comparing it to the damage output boost that other frames get with augments or even none, is deceptively minute, and functionally insignificant. I love seeing that number % of damage boost on the top right, but the hard truth appears to be that even with about 800% damage boost on my limbo, it will most definitely still come very short compared to other offensive frames, not to mention that the number of mobs you have to drag into your rift to reproduce this number is impractical.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

You are indeed right about that. But even in a situation whereby Limbo has dragged that many mobs into the rift, there typically come 2-3 issues that arise as a result of that.

 

1. Dragging that many mobs into the rift brings up the inevitable problem of more mobs shooting or attacking Limbo within, even if you had a short timeframe whereby you allow mobs to rise back up from a knockdown effect, there are a good number of situations whereby mobs were not affected by it, possibly due to a stasis effect, groundsmash effect, or an overly short period between the mobs knockdown effects. And between Limbo and the mobs in general, he has no other evasion tactics other then some rudimentary parkour, unlike Mirage's well... mirages.

 

2. Players definitely find this invasive when you end up dragging such a large amount of mobs into the rift, even if it is for a somewhat shorter time.  I also feel this segways into the 3rd point even further.

 

3. The amount of time Limbo takes to stack up this limitless damage stack (which make no mistake I am very very thankful for) is far far greater than other frames take to do so. 

Elaborating on 2 and 3 in particular, with some estimations based off of 261% ability strength on both Mirage and Limbo with Blind rage, Intensify and Transient Fortitude, Limbo gets about 78% extra damage, which is great. However, there is a very visible difference between Mirage and Limbo in terms of kps, largely due to the unaccounted damage from the clones. With Eclipse, Mirage does say about 550% extra damage, and with 2 of her 4/5 (I forget) attacking at about 50%+ of that damage, that would mean that with the instance of casting 1 + 3, Mirage is effectively doing, that would mean... 1100%?! And with Hall of Malevolence they should be doing 75% of that damage (cause Hall of Malevolence gives a cap of 50% extra damage on the attacking clones). So does this mean Mirage does about 1375% damage?  I would certainly believe it, albeit given my admittedly basic comparison between Mirage and Limbo in ESO and my Simulacrum. If this were true, this would mean Limbo has to rift surge about 17-18 mobs within his rift, cast rift surge, and then proceed to kill them.

Also, while theoretically getting 17-18 mobs into the rift does not seem too difficult, there is another glaring limiter on this source of damage - Energy. One might claim that since Limbo has Energy regen in the rift he should be fine. But imagine having to recast Rift Surge every 3-4 seconds, to slowly gather more and more mobs as they gather towards you, without killing them. As a combat frame, the most viable manner of fighting would be minimum duration in my opinion, seeing as how it is still the fastest way to kill high level mobs for limbo. This means, you are consistently expending energy to build up this damage. From my experience, with Blind rage on especially, this runs out quick. If I took Blind rage off, I would be at 45% damage per mob, which means I would need about 31 mobs to build the same amount of damage. With these figures in consideration, outpacing Mirage... is actually practically impossible.

All to momentarily match Mirage's damage, until of course, he inevitably kills a good chunk of mobs to bring it down. On paper before writing this post I definitely think it doesn't seem that hard, but I am only making this argument, to point at the possibility of why Limbo still is very much a lackluster frame for 2 mission types - Control/Efficiency Missions, and Normal Defense missions. Let's forget about Defense missions for now though... I don't need or want a nuking Limbo back that badly (ie another press 1 button to win frame)...

 

I understand 2 problems with what I am saying:

 Firstly, Limbo is definitely, in my opinion, still far far greater at evading death than Mirage. In a minimum duration build, if he runs away quick enough, mobs eventually leave the rift in 5-8 seconds, and it is a very great ability.

Secondly, I am implying that I need Limbo to be buffed to be equal to Mirage in terms of damage. I definitely do not think that however. I believe that since Limbo has such an advantage in evading at higher levels compared to frames like Mirage, it is absolutely justified that he should not be dishing out THAT much damage like Mirage. 

 

However, I think the gap is far too great. Mission types like Control/Efficiency Missions, where survival AND killing at a fast rate is desired, I feel that merely a select few (less than a handful) frames are reasonable choices to go with. Limbo, alongside many other frames I am sure as well, definitely does not come up as a viable killing frame where kills/s is essential.

I would love to invite anyone to give this a go if there happens to be a Limbo main somewhere out there reading this. In a combat situation, how does Mirage or say Saryn with power strength mods compare with Limbo. Limbo is very clearly outmatched in kills per second. Not that that's particularly a bad thing. But as a combat frame option, Limbo is REALLY not good for speed kills, and I am wondering if there is a possibility of that changing with a buffed Rift torrent mod, all assuming I haven't missed something.

 

TL;DR  Limbo needs to drag alot of mobs into the rift to rift surge for Rift torrent to provide any substantial benefit to his damage. This is invasive and not sustainable.

[Rift Torrent | Limbo]

Prefacing this by saying that I understand that Limbo is often seen as more of a support frame, so if one feels that Limbo should NOT be augmented further as a combat frame, it is likely that reading this post is rather unnecessary. I am writing this post assuming that the Rift torrent augment (obtainable from Cephalon Suda and Arbiters of Hexis) was created to make Limbo somewhat of a viable combat frame, and think that it is possibly underwhelming in comparison to other frames, such as Mirage.

I would have put off mentioning any of this if Rift torrent as an augment mod did not exist. It would prevent me from having seen Limbo as a possible damage output frame in the first place. However, since it is there, I presume it was added with the purpose of boosting Limbo's killing potential in the rift. As such, I am assuming that Limbo is being presented as a potential contender for survival missions and so forth, as a combat frame with this mod, and I am proposing that the Rift torrent mod, while an amazing augment, actually comes up short in comparison to other combat savvy frames' augments, if the respective frames even need them.  

[ Correction : Mirage's Eclipse UI is bugged and the 550%+ buff is not a true indication of strength. Sorry for the mistake. Bad comparison. ]

 

I am sure it could be argued that Limbo has the rift and stasis(arguably undesirable in a fast paced killing mission), and therefore, this advantage Limbo has over Mirage could be seen as one he has to pay for as a result. Furthermore, Mirage is a glass cannon, so perhaps her damage output should be large as a result. I believe however, that Limbo, as a combat frame, is nothing BUT a glass cannon (with some neat knockdown effects >.>) within the rift when he brings mobs in. In most situations, Limbo has to simply rely on the strongest weapons to deal damage and contribute to the kill count, and evade desecration himself.

A good number of missions are centered around killing mobs as quickly as possible (ironically, including Defense missions). I would like to see if Limbo could be brought up to a level equivalent to other frames with Rift Torrent. I love Limbo very much as a frame, and I understand that I am very fortunate to have him become such a versatile and fashionable frame. Nonetheless, I would like to see if I could convince DE to perhaps review Limbo's Rift Torrent mod, so that he becomes a more realistic and viable combat frame, that can actually scale with increasing mob levels, using Rift torrent. Rift torrent as it is right now only provides the user benefit if they increase the number of mobs inside the rift i.e. it rewards mob hoarding, something that is NOT squad friendly.

 

TLDR : I think Rift torrent should be a scaling mod that allows Limbo to do more damage, based off of the armour, hp and level of the mobs inside his rift, NOT a mod that increase based off of the number of mobs in it.

Edit: Had some misunderstanding how Mirage worked apparently, sorry about that.