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Ceadeus

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Everything posted by Ceadeus

  1. ^ Literally implying you're using Ash as your reference for what a "nuker" playstyle would be and that Ash is a valid entry in this discussion of CC vs nuking, when he's not. I have all the frames too, which is precisely why I would never bother to bring up Ash in reference to nuking. Again, literally implies there were enemies left alive that the nuker did not handle themselves to be pawned off to other players, but any good nuker can handle the entire map before they present any real threat to any player who isn't actively putting themselves in harm's way and refusing to defend themselves. So again, your argument is still operating on an inefficient nuke player to begin with and says nothing about the playstyle itself. It's not. At all. Granted you can't do it just standing still in one spot, but you can absolutely keep the entire map locked down with just mediocre movement skills and a mediocre build. If you really think that sounds insane it sounds like you need to work on your builds because they don't seem to be very good. Yes, because it's not built around "control" as in CC, it's built around controlling the points, which is best done by no enemies being alive to contest it to begin with. IE: Nuking. Which also will provide them more affinity and resources, which newer players will need as the main loop of Warframe is the grind, while CC'ing will not provide anything. I never said past round 1, I said once things start to present a challenge, which if you have an actually effective nuker, you can easily stay for a long time with zero risk of dying or ever losing a control point. I mentioned leaving in reference to your comment about fighting level 300 or 500 or whatever enemies and how there's no real point in doing that because you're going to get better returns just resetting and going again anyway. The irony of talking about a "waste of time" when that is literally the playstyle you're describing. You are literally sat here saying it is better to play an ineffective, completely passive, unrewarding playstyle that completes the mission SLOWER because it will also take longer to clear the enemies at the end of the round, all because you don't know how to play a nuke frame apparently. I'm not denying that you can do the things you're claiming, what I'm denying is that it is actually beneficial. Every "detriment" you've described about using a nuke frame stems from the assumption that it is being played poorly, and not with any actual fault in the concept itself. Your entire argument quite literally boils down to "When the nuker fails to do their job adequately then new players might not have a good build either and you could fail".
  2. To be fair, most stuff doesn't work with modern Warframe anymore, including the idea of a "tank" frame. It's all just really not necessary when the game keeps shifting more and more towards "grind out endless hordes of mobs for abysmal droprates" and/or "chew through this one enemy that has higher EHP than the entirety of all the health and defenses of every enemy in entire missions combined".
  3. No, you're just misleading them. I'm assuming we're just using your 15 as a general number for discussion's sake and you're not actually claiming that as the enemy cap, so going with that, if there are 15 enemies and you claim you can hold all of them and no more will spawn, there will ALWAYS be 15 enemies in that round no matter how many you kill. The amount of enemies you fight at any given time will never increase until the next round comes and it will increase regardless of whether you kill the enemies or not. There will never be a case where you kill 15 at a certain spot and then 20, 30, or 50 spawn elsewhere, it will always total up to 15 present on the map at all times for that round. Ironically, nuking is even more of a necessity for newer players as they need the affinity and resources more than anybody, and the issue that you're describing of enemies popping up elsewhere and being unable to quickly respond and deal with them is literally being ineffective at nuking, not a detriment caused by nuking. You are literally saying that the enemies are surviving the nuke and you're failing to cover the points quickly enough, which they shouldn't be if you're playing the playstyle correctly, so to that end, I could just as easily say your CC playstyle can be even more detrimental if you take a crappy CC build that doesn't hold the enemies well enough and they overrun you anyway while you burn all your energy and you have no way to deal with them and die. See how it's not really relevant to just assume a bad build in a discussion about the merit of playstyles as a whole? Ash isn't a good nuker though because he relies on direct LoS to every target you want to hit before you can hit them. You're literally just proving my point that you're playing bad nukers and blaming the playstyle. Lots of frames can do that through lots of different ability combos. People have gotten frames to do a lot higher damage than that. Hydroid can without the need for a finisher. Using the exact combo I described you can easily hit 30mil + slash procs. Well no, the idea is that if you're the nuker, you should be effectively dealing with ALL the mobs. If you're only able to deal with a small portion of them (as I said is the case with Ash) then that's not a good nuke frame. I'm not sure what you mean by sensor drones so I can't say for sure if that's accurate or not. But I do know people run nukes through spy missions all the time without issue. But you're just admitting you're using bad frames/builds and blaming the playstyle when you're not doing it effectively to begin with. There really haven't been any concrete examples. The most concrete thing has been Waeleto's frame usage data, but even that only puts him running middle of the pack and dropping as his survivability becomes more and more irrelevant throughout the year. It sounds more like you're upset that you didn't know anything at all about how Hydroid works or plays and your idea of how the different playstyles are supposed to function is just wrong. There is no instance where they're the better option. You're disregarding the fact that the frames and builds you're using are terrible and ineffective nukers and claiming that's indicative of the playstyle. Yes, he clarified and I already commented on that. However, with the exception of Baruuk, all the frames he said were below Inaros do get regular complaints about getting updates to their kit. Not as drastic as Inaros', but still changes wanted all the same. Take Frost for example, people have wanted a Frost rework for a long time. Yeah, I thought that would've been really cool. But I guess maybe it would be unfair to the other frames to have his dodge also be an ability. It's not "bad" like I said I just don't feel like it's enough and I'm worried that means he's just going to get tossed to the wayside to wait another almost decade for the proper rework he deserves to give him some real value and identity outside his healthbar. You're welcome to do so. Personally, I don't need to see it live to see how these changes stack up against similar abilities and how far behind Inaros is by comparison. He definitely did (and still does) need a lot. His kit has been outdated for a long time and these changes still don't bring him up to modern standards. If Inaros released today even with the proposed rework, he would be considered one of the worst frames in the game. It's really only off his legacy as a tank that he's hanging on at all and that's going to start dropping as shield gating and overguard become more standard. Yes, this is all helpful, but the problem is scaling off health still means it has a fixed cap, unlike Saryn, and unless the numbers in Pablo's demo are wildly lower than what will be hitting live or there's some kind of insane exponential scaling instead of mostly linear, they also weren't all that good and even with a fully maxed health build that damage isn't going to be able to keep up with basically any of the good DPS frames, even with that armor strip (which I also think people are wildly overstating as it's just a slow corrosive proc, it's not like Hydroid where there are multiple sources of enhanced corrosive procs hitting really fast all the time), not to mention the clunkiness of him being forced to rely on shards like you're saying to begin with when he's already not that great. Even without the overguard issue his CC potential has never been all that great. Both pocket sand and sandstorm don't have enough range to really be worth trying to run him as a CC focused frame, it's just an afterthought of his kit.
  4. Ah, better, but I fully expect that number to drop now that shield gating is becoming the meta. I imagine that was really the only thing keeping him up was the ease of use for the health bar to be able to facetank without much thought or investment necessary.
  5. Not all of them full-on reworks, no, but they all do have people arguing that their kit overall isn't that great/is clunky/is outdated/etc. Except for Baruuk, that one I don't understand, but maybe that's just because people find him boring. No, I'm saying the amount of enemies on the map at any given time stays the same. You don't fight more enemies than you were before by killing them, you just replace the ones you killed. And there's no CC frame in the game that can solo hold all 4 points better than a nuke frame can, old Hydroid DEFINITELY couldn't. There is no point where nuking becomes detrimental, people hate interception specifically because the mission is locked to a set duration regardless of KPM, so it doesn't matter how many you kill you can't progress the mission any faster. That being said, any good nuke frame can easily hold all 4 points and clear out the replacement waves long before they manage to take any of the other towers, they don't have to just sit at one tower because they can easily just move to the next and wipe it out. That's the whole point, the CC frame is the one that's not going to help things because both are going to finish the round in the same time, but then at the end of it you still have to clear all the remaining enemies, where a nuke frame can do it in a second, the CC frame can't. There is literally NO context where a CC frame is more efficient for completing these missions other than assuming the nuke frame PLAYER is bad and isn't performing at the level they should, but that A. can be said about the CC frame as well and B. doesn't reflect on the concept of nuke frame vs CC frame anyway. No your best way to make enemies unable to attack you is for them to be dead. It IS the best because it is the most effective, the most efficient, and the most rewarding. What you're arguing about is a thematical issue, not one that actually reflects in the gameplay. It's literally harder to keep a mission CC locked or remain undetected than it is to just nuke them for absolutely no extra benefit at all, and in most cases you physically cannot progress the missions without killing the enemies so it's entirely pointless too. Again, I fully agree I wish the game had more room for CC and stealth. But it doesn't. To argue that there is any context where DPS is not the best answer is just false. You can have frames that are not as good at DPS as others are at CC, but that's a different issue, that's literally because they are not effective enough at nuking to be good. Well then yes, 2+4 alone is a more than suitable replacement and will save you a lot more energy too than the method you're describing. But also I disagree about bladestorm being stronger than Hydroid's kit anymore. Previously, sure, but now with a 2+4+1+3 combo you can group all the enemies in your path, hard lock them in place, strip all their armor EXTREMELY quick, and convert that into a massive boost of armor for yourself as well as 400-600% extra damage on average depending on strength, meaning Hydroid starts putting out millions of damage with almost any weapon. Well Zephyr has extra interactions though, so that's its own thing, and Hydroid's NEVER had that functionality. So that's kind of moot unless we're just talking about the ability to transfer raw melee damage, in which case, like I said, you can just melee them outright because they're held low enough and held still to hit. It's not though. Not without a bunch of external buffing sources at least, most of which also apply to other frames that can then get better results, as stated with the previous Hydroid combo. Being an avid melee player, I personally subsume off Hydroid's 4 and replace it with Kullervo's teleport for the crit buff so I get a flat +300% crit chance to my heavy strikes and there's not much I can't delete with that. He said those are all the frames that are below Inaros who's in 31st out of 56 total. So, not really?
  6. Almost every frame listed there has been requested for a rework or touchup of some kind with reasonable regularity.
  7. But again, that's the whole point is killing the enemies DOESN'T create any more enemies than you're already dealing with. The enemy cap is fixed per round, it doesn't increase based on how many you kill, unless you're talking about new waves spawning, but having to deal with more waves inherently implies you are able to kill them without issue. There's also the matter that most CC frames can only effectively cover a similar area to what a nuke frame can anyway, so it's not like the nuke frames are any less effective at point coverage than a CC frame, and if you're playing a nuke frame effectively the enemies should never be touching the control points to begin with to ever lose them, so it sounds more like your issue is with ineffective nuke frames, not the playstyle itself, which really only reinforces the idea that more firepower IS the better answer. Not to mention, there's still the matter that every enemy dealt with directly translates to more rewards, so assuming both styles are able to complete the mission, it is objectively more beneficial to gear towards killing faster rather than CC lock. No, the problem with Hydroid was that in the vast majority of content, the best he could do was delay a mission rather than progress it, similar to the issues Limbo has, but Limbo at least had other effectiveness as a safety net and worked really well with weapon-based combat with stasis. Again, the game directly rewards you for killing more enemies, it doesn't reward you at all for CC'ing them or avoiding killing them, and your best chance of survival is if no threats are alive to begin with. So it is OBJECTIVELY the best way to play. Okay, but that still only catches what you already had in the dash is the problem. So in order to effectively use that for grouping you'd have to dash, puddle, unpuddle, dash, puddle, unpuddle, and essentially just burn a ton of energy on something that's only delaying your progress in most content and is also really inefficient for grouping to begin with. Okay, but you can now just melee them outright. No interaction was lost there it was just made more convenient for every other purpose. My point was that the only thing that sets the finisher apart from other high-damage sources is the animation lock. There are other sources of true damage that don't require that restriction, so the defining factor of a finisher IS the animation. And even with those bypasses, the damage still isn't comparable to what a lot of frames can get with less restrictive options. All good. No worries. I'd agree if he hadn't been condescending from literally his first post. He's done nothing but try to be inflammatory and blatantly ignore the facts while claiming I'm the one who doesn't want to discuss I see no reason to treat him with the slightest shred of respect when he's shown nothing but a desire to instigate. ? ? ? It's not though. Survivability is literally the one and only thing Inaros has to spare. Popping a rolling guard on him and any regen source makes you effectively immortal. Yeah he can't abuse shield gating, but even without it he's still absurdly tanky. And no, his abilities fall off even just late star chart. Have you ever tried to use his 2, 3, or 4 for damage? The only thing he can do is pocket sand finishers, which are better served by any number of frames that have WAY better scaling. All made irrelevant by the part where finishers are about the worst possible source of DPS to rely on. Again, the game centers around KPM these days. A frame that is entirely reliant on slowly performing a long animation on each and every enemy that won't even kill them in content beyond the star chart is just bad, period. Except it's not when the whole problem is that he effectively has zero abilities. Again, not denying they're improvements, they're just not improvements that are going to make him good. He doesn't though. His kit is literally less than it was before just with extra QoL.
  8. It is the best way to play though. Regardless of what mission type you're in, it's always more optimal to be able to kill everything before it can react rather than try to CC lock it or avoid the fight entirely if not just because you'll receive additional rewards you wouldn't from playing either other way. I'm not saying I like that outcome, I would much prefer if CC and stealth and more tactful gameplay had a place, but it simply doesn't anymore. The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all. It would only lock the ones picked up in that dash, but what I'm saying is that if you already have enemies in the puddle and you tried to use tidal surge, it would leave the enemies you had trapped behind, freeing them, and pick up any new ones instead. This was always a huge gripe among Hydroid players, I, again, being one of them. People assumed if another rework ever came that would be one of the changes would be to make the dash not leave enemies behind, but I believe they commented at one point stating they explicitly didn't want what you're describing to happen where someone just gathers up all the enemies without any risk or drawback. You can, just surge any enemies you want grouped and then immediately cast 4 on them while they're still down and they'll get locked together. As for co-op, I'm fairly positive whatever you're describing is a bug, but even without that it still also gained improvements for co-op just from not thrashing enemies around so they're now easier to hit. But we again return to the fact that genuinely good frames can delete enemies level 300 or 500 in the blink of an eye, Hydroid included now. Plus interception doesn't scale either the level or density of enemies per enemy killed, so you're going to be fighting the same difficulty of waves no matter how many you kill, it only goes up per round. Not to mention if we're really going to get into the value of different playstyles, there's no value of any kind to stay in an endurance mission long-term because it will always be more efficient to just reset the run and start over once things start to present any kind of challenge. I'm not sure what you mean by this as missions like intercept have a fixed duration assuming you're in control of all the points, which again can be answered just as easily with a room nuker as a CC lock. And Hydroid's CC potential is largely the same if not better. The only notable exception you're claiming if I'm not mistaken is this interaction with other targeting abilities, but then they shouldn't be relevant in whether the enemy stays CC'd or not. So I'm not really following how he became less control capable when everything got better for that purpose with the exception of losing puddle. I knew it applied to his teleport but I didn't think it applied to his 4, but maybe that's why it got nerfed. At any rate, all of this is only proving my point that finishers only become usable when you either all but completely remove what defines the finisher which is the animation lock with attack speed buffs, or have multiple other buffing factors on top of them, which Inaros does not, and even then we're still just boiling it down to "big damage number good" so it would still just be better to take a frame that gets similar damage outputs without being reliant on finishers at all. So we're just back to Inaros' kit being pretty pointless. Also I'm not sure if you know, but you can highlight someone's text to only quote the part of the post you actually want to reply to. Just makes things easier to follow.
  9. "Very popular" is a pretty big stretch. He's definitely in the bottom tiers for playtime. But also, there's plenty of reason to judge the performance, we don't need hands-on experience with it specifically because he's staying 90% the same with only minor tweaks. We already know how his kit performs right now, not well, a bit more immortality, some extra movespeed, or an extra few ticks of corrosive isn't gonna change that. Also, as I said, my issue is less with the changes he got themselves and more with the fact that it pulls attention off Inaros when I feel like he definitely deserves a lot more. Inaros never had raw survivability concerns. That's part of the issue is that's still a lot of what the rework is geared towards but as I already pointed out, any frame can already become virtually invincible, Inaros can use all the same methods in addition to his absurdly high HP. The only part of Inaros' survivability that was concerning was the inability for his kit to keep up with even mid-level content, which he's still going to suffer from with these changes. Desiccation really isn't a very good ability, specifically because finishers aren't very good because of how much they break the flow of gameplay and slow the pace of combat and they only get worse as you start encountering actual high-level content, not even getting into like endurance runs but just the upper ends of steel path and such enemies will already start surviving raw finishers without extra resistance removal or modifiers. It's definitely better, but it's still really short-range and just not as good as the multitude of other CC options on better frames. Same with these, they're improvements, yes, but they're so minor to abilities that are so far behind the curve that it really won't make any impact. 1 corrosive proc a second isn't going to make a huge difference, and summonables have never been great, not to mention he already had the sand clones off devour which he already got to be fully immortal for the duration and "guaranteed" a kill on anything you were patient enough to sit around for, so if the abilities are still going to be ineffective anyway, it doesn't really add any new potential to him. Again, that's the issue, if we're looking at Inaros in a vacuum with only himself then sure, you could call them worthwhile improvements. But Inaros doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has to stack up against 55 other frames. And in that lens, he's still miles behind with his one defining trait being made more and more irrelevant as the game goes on and the average survivability of each from gets higher and higher. But that doesn't work. With old puddle, if you tidal surged out, you didn't take the enemies with you, you dropped them behind. For simply grouping all the enemies new tidal surge is WAY better because you can actually do what you're describing with just tidal surge alone since it actually keeps them all together instead of yeeting them at the end of your cast. This also works to compact his ult where you just ball them up and the immediately cast it and you have them in a nice, tightly-knit ball. I'm also still not sure what you're talking about with the targeting negation, as far as I know, all targeted abilities are still intended to work. I'm also not sure what you mean by this because you can still do all the same stuff but better. I don't think that's true either though because there's a reason the saying is "The best CC is dead". While you might prefer to lock down all the enemies in the level instead, it still stands to reason that it makes more sense to just nuke all the enemies all the time and clear the mission while also getting the extra rewards from the kills. Not to mention, like I said, you can still group enemies even more effectively than you could before you just do it with tidal surge instead of puddle. Well that's because you're removing the gigantic drawback of finishers which is the forced animation. At that point you're just describing DPS in general, it's not the fact that they are finishers that are helping you, it's just the act of dealing damage. The only exception to this is when using Covert Lethality to force the finisher to be a kill, but even then I don't think it applies to Ash 4 so we're back to being stuck in long animations in a game that every day becomes more about clearing massive amounts of enemies as fast as possible.
  10. No you just refuse every bit of evidence to lie through your teeth about what you blindly believe is right. Do me a favor, little science experiment, go search "Inaros" on the forums and see how many results you get, then do "Hydroid" and see if that lines up with your theory that Inaros is never talked about and that nobody ever shut up about Hydroid. Since I know facts aren't your strong suit I'll do the math for you, 30% more results for Hydroid. Does a 30% difference for a frame that's had 2 separate reworks sound like the utterly incomparable difference you were trying to paint it as? Sure doesn't to me. But again, I know facts aren't your strong suit so I'll help you out again, no, Inaros was in just as bad of a state as Hydroid and being talked about for just as long. Everything you've said from the very first word has been false. You're not here to have a discussion like I have with everyone else, you're here to make stuff up and then cry about it when you get proven wrong and try to deflect with false claims that people were "condescending" to you or "not willing to discuss" when that ONLY describes you here. Get off my post.
  11. All I'm hearing is that you're going to ignore the facts to make up whatever narrative fits your preference. The fact you think my reply only pertained to you and didn't bother to see that I was simply engaging anyone who bothered to give their thoughts tells me you WILDLY overvalue your own wrong opinions and aren't worth discussing with any further. Don't reply anymore.
  12. Nothing about what I said was condescending. Hydroid was the same way but still got his. It also really only emphasizes my point that people have wanted this for so long that people have already beaten that dead horse enough to not be in the limelight. Naturally, the forums are going to be primarily filled with comments about modern issues, not a near-decade-old frame. And yes, his healthpool USED to prop him up, but even then people were still unhappy with the lackluster state of his kit, and as I pointed out, that healthpool has become entirely irrelevant given the state of survival tools. Hence, seeing him get such a minimal rework is sad. I literally addressed the fact that they were just out of place in the game. But, no, despite your personal grievances, those abilities are still really good. Being able to refill energy and health completely on demand is very strong. They're just not needed because of the focus on killing things in the blink of an eye anyway. Inaros' abilities on the other hand are both unfitting for the game AND weak. Inaros doesn't fill an untapped niche like Trinity, he just has a weak and outdated kit, period. Link was literally a major staple in extremely broken builds for a while there before it got nerfed. Blessing is also a full heal plus temporary immortality and status immunity, so now you're contradicting yourself by claiming that Inaros' survivability is enough to prop him up alone but that when Trinity provides the best survivability in the game at the press of a button to her whole team it's somehow "nearly useless". You whine about me being condescending but then think this isn't? Well regardless of your weird double standards when having your points countered, I disagree, with the exception of game-breaking issues and the "feedback window" after an update, reworks for content should be prioritized first by how long content has been in need of an update, then by the severity of the problem. For Inaros, that's basically since he dropped almost a decade ago vs Caliban just closing out 2 years. Hydroid also follows that precedent where Hydroid had niche uses, just like you're claiming Inaros does, but he had also been suffering for so long that he deserved the attention. Well no, because even Hydroid's control wasn't all that good. Tempest Barrage had unreliable targeting and just knocked stuff down, not terrible but not that good either, Tidal surge threw things all over the place, which was inconvenient, Tentacle Swarm also thrashed their targets around making them hard to deal with vs a normal CC, and Puddle while funny, literally brought the game to a crawl. Hydroid's main niche function was as a lootbooster, but he was also overshadowed in that regard too. THAT'S why he got a rework. He became a DPS because that's just the way of the game anymore. Raw CC just isn't valuable in the fast-paced, kills-per-minute-based meta. Even the best "CC frames" also have some form of damage in their kit anymore. I'll gladly discuss it if you think it's worth discussing I'm just not sure I agree. Tempest Barrage has better targeting and automatically casts at its previous max strength without any hold to charge, making it more reliable for control in addition to having the previous augment included and the base ability and the augment converted into a better one also making it better for damage, so all net positives there for both control and damage. Tidal Surge now drops enemies at your feet instead of flinging them away, making that better for control. The loss of puddle could be argued as a loss of control, but again it was more of a cheeky gimmick than a truly effective CC tool or ability. Tentacle Swarm also got better targeting, no longer thrashes enemies around, and now recaptures enemies who enter the area after cast so it's also better for control there. I don't know of any removed interactions with other abilities from its previous iteration so if you've noticed any I think that might be a bug rather than an intended change. And the only other "control" Hydroid had was his old passive of spawning a single tentacle, which I think we can both agree wasn't really doing much for him anyway. They are, but so are any number of other sources that don't require you to be locked in place for a long animation. If they were a guaranteed kill then maybe, but if you start trying to do finishers in high-level content you're just gonna wind up tickling the enemy and getting shot to Hell. It's interesting to have extra effects on finishers, but just not viable to have them be the focus of a playstyle unless they're going to do something utterly ridiculous. Yes, I wasn't trying to say Inaros players are bad or anything, I'm just saying that his only real positive for the last however long has been the fact that he has a big healthbar, which isn't really relevant for skilled players because of the multitude of options to turn any frame into an immortal tank, so Inaros is an easier method of survival for players who don't have the means or skills to pull off those methods was what I was trying to say. Sadly raw damage is still the king of the game and in that regard, Caliban truly sucks. But that's why I think a rework for Caliban wouldn't need to be very intense. Preferably get a new 1 so he's not just ripping off Revenant, and then figure out a good scaling method for his damage output, problem solved. Comparatively, I don't think there's any simple scaling buff you can give to most of Inaros' current or proposed rework kit to make it interesting. Fair assessments. I used to play Inaros quite extensively and I believe I've already posted a proposed Inaros rework once, but they said they don't want to go too deep with him, so, for now, I'm just hoping for something that helps alleviate the "Just a glorified healthbar" issue and I don't think this rework does that. And I'm in somewhat the same boat about the direction of the meta. I do wish there was more room for creative solutions and subsequent frame designs, but sadly when a game becomes centered around grinding through waves of fodder, the best CC, the best survivability tool, the best everything is always going to be a dead enemy. To fix that would require a massive top-to-bottom restructuring of the core gameplay mechanics that's just too risky of a move to even take this late in Warframe's life. But hopefully, Soulframe can fit that more calculated and deliberate niche of playstyle. I sure hope that's the case because this just does not seem like "it" to me. I don't know that I would call his 4 a "good armor strip ability" as all it really did was change the damage type to forced corrosive, but it still doesn't tick very fast, so in more cases than not, you're likely going to be able to kill an enemy long before you'd ever tick off any significant amount of armor from them with the corrosive procs alone, unlike Hydroid who got enhanced corrosive procs and tons of other corrosive damage throughout his kit. The mobility is nice, but not really going to be making any dramatic changes to his effectiveness, and the survivability was the one thing he already had more than enough of, so sort of moot there. I understand that, I used to play Inaros a lot. However, as you said, the main (and arguably only real) draw of Inaros right now is his tankiness. But that's already almost entirely contained in his healthbar alone, making his actual kit a tiny portion of his identity. Inaros' kit is already virtually pointless as it only serves to feed the healthbar, but again, any frame in the game can be just as tanky as Inaros, so for his one and only significant trait to be "being tanky" is just not viable even from a pure frame-balance standpoint. Right now, Inaros barely dips his toes into some other areas, both live and in the proposed rework, and I think it would be much better to explore those a little deeper. For example the sand clones. Those were always an interesting concept, but they were so ridiculously clunky to get to with how slowly devour worked, you could absolutely find ways to get more of those on the field and you could also have them feed back into the tanky elements of Inaros by having him sap their health to heal his own. There are plenty of ways to feed into Inaros' identity as a tank, but also give him some more interesting and engaging abilities than 2 variants of pocket sand, a glorified rolling guard, and a mediocre corrosive procer. Well arguably his survivability is more interesting (if less powerful) now on live than it will be under his rework if that's your perspective because right now you improve your survivability with devour which makes you immortal while doing it and technically can kill anything in the game it can be used on if you have the patience while also (arguably his most interesting and criminally under-explored aspect) spawning a sand clone, or a synergy between sandstorm and pocket sand that lets you sap health with it, and a give-and-take with your 4 of trading your extra armor for some damage. Whereas in the rework you lose devour entirely, sandstorm DOES become a "press button for (literal) immortality" and presumably no longer needs to synergize with pocket sand as a result, and there's no longer a conscious tradeoff with your armor, just a passive extra protection. Armor and damage based on corrosive procs in area, but yeah. I would agree puddle is more interesting, but it also just didn't fit with the pace and design of the game anymore. I would've liked to see puddle stay in some form, but I'll also definitely take Hydroid actually being an effective and fun frame to play over it as well. Well I'd have to disagree and his low playrates would suggest the same. It's an improvement, but like I said, I'm worried this means he's just never going to get the real attention he deserves. Even with all the buffs his kit is still not going to be very effective compared to others at any given role, and his survivability is also all but nullified. He really does deserve better. So can absolutely every frame in the game. The problem is that every other frame can do that AND be effective for other purposes where Inaros is JUST a tank and doesn't actually provide much of anything else that wouldn't be better served by plenty of other frames. Hildryn literally has one of the best defense strip abilities in the game and can get some pretty obscene damage out of her 1 when modded right, so her and Inaros are hardly comparable.
  13. I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either. The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything. Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments. But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right. Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive. So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least. I don't know what game you've been playing or how new you are but people have been talking about Inaros' need for a rework for years, LONG before overguard was ever a thing. Inaros was invalidated well before then and really only exists for players who didn't have the mechanical skill/reactions to sustain the multiple other forms of immortality available to them. His kit is just conceptually very boring and ineffective. He was designed in a time where the maximum enemy density you'd be fighting at one time was typically about 6 and just hasn't evolved to keep up with the pace of the game at all and even in his prime he was really more of a glorified healthbar than a frame that actually had any effective abilities. As for Trinity, her abilities are actually pretty good, they just suffer from the fact that there's virtually no content in the game where a medic or energy battery is really necessary because of the nature of the previously mentioned immortality methods for every frame in addition to the ever-growing focus towards mass extinction events being a baseline expectation for frames. Caliban is at least conceptually interesting (with the exception of his 1 which is for some reason just a copy of Revenant's 4) but just really weak with no form of proper scaling (which Inaros also suffers from btw) so I'd still say he needs less drastic changes than Inaros to be in a decent spot.
  14. Now I'm gonna start this out by stating 2 things. 1. I know they said this rework wasn't going to be very intense so to expect anything huge is already just having unrealistic expectations. 2. I also know that Inaros is "strong" in his high survivability and that makes up a large part of the value of his kit. However, even with both of those things in mind, I feel like I'm not alone in saying what was shown on today's Devstream 177 was pretty underwhelming for a frame that has needed attention for SO long. Inaros' state has been such an issue for such a long time that the game has evolved around him to actually invalidate most of what little case existed against his need for change which was always his survivability. Back when Inaros came out that was a huge trait that had a lot of helpful scenarios, but as the game has moved on, all the frames have become more and more tanky or gained access to better and better survival tools to the point that with skilled play you can easily become functionally immortal anyway, leaving Inaros' main function to just be a skill gap bandaid. This issue is further compounded by the fact that Inaros definitely has the most boring kit of all the frames in the game, with his live iteration centering almost exclusively around slow, single target, low damage, stationary, or mediocre effectiveness CC abilities that hold next to no value in the modern state of the game. Now the proposed rework does a little bit to fix this issue with the reworked sandstorm and scarab swarm being faster-paced and covering a little more ground, but those still definitely aren't competing with a lot of the newer frame designs that do what those abilities are doing better, faster, farther, in addition to other things at the same time, not to mention things like his 1 centering around a pure flavor gimmick like finishers that most people don't really do in the fast pace of missions and the fact that his new 3 is just a chopped off part of his existing 4. It's just really sad to see an awesome concept like Inaros with such rich potential for cool abilities and interactions in his lore and theme get relegated to a dust bunny filled with mildly annoying bugs, especially to know that the fact he got any attention at all means he's effectively shoved to the back of the line again for any potential future changes as well. I'm not going to ignore his survivability or act like his abilities don't have niche uses, but I still feel like those are wildly overshadowed by the potential of almost any other frame these days. I hope we can see a bit further iteration on these concepts in the near future.
  15. It definitely shouldn't be nerfed. It may not be a popular opinion but you're the one queuing public matchmaking in a game that anymore is almost entirely about min-max'ing to deal with artificially pumped-up EHP numbers and grind. Naturally, people are going to use whatever is effective and nerfing that isn't going to solve that problem, it's just going to shift to another room nuke. All that being said, I feel like you have to be on some fairly low-level content if Thermal Sunder alone is dominating the mission, and if that's the case, then it REALLY doesn't make any sense to be advocating for a nerf as it's already just an okay ability in the upper tiers.
  16. I think the changes are "good" if not just because Hydroid was SO bad, but I don't think they're gonna be enough and he'll likely wind up needing another "rework" later down the line if they expect him to actually see any amount of play beyond the honeymoon phase after this change and the diehards who have always played him regardless of viability. His kit is still a mix of 2 problems #1 being that his abilities are just worse versions of better abilities for the most part and #2 being he just got a lot of stuff centered around helping his CC aspects and we all know the old issue that "the best CC is dead" and to that end, he really didn't gain any actual damage output which is obviously still by far and away the king in Warframe. There's also the matter that his new "Plunder" ability is another armor-stripping ability that operates on a small, concentrated area, but they didn't give him any effective mass-grouping tools which they seem to have a habit of doing anymore, not to mention the fact that this ability seems like it's gonna be worthless vs Corpus/Infested units unless they misspoke. I would feel a lot better about it if they'd taken the tentacle swarm changes a little further and maybe had the tentacles drag all the enemies under for a second then pull them back up all grouped up on Hydroid's position so they'd be primed for his defense stripping, in addition to making it easier for him/his teammates to mass clear.
  17. So when's the patch that makes the Bishamo armor not just a completely different set based on gender? I don't know who was in charge of this particular design choice but they failed, miserably. Why is the female Bishamo armor 10x as detailed as the male counterpart? Why does the female Bishamo armor just have completely different pieces that are completely unrelated to gender traits like the radically different helmet? It's one thing to do this with frames that have a preset gender, but with our operators that are supposed to be peak customization? I was so excited for the Bishamo armor and ready to grind my way to it, but now knowing that it's essentially genderlocked I've lost pretty much all interest.
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