(XBOX)ZiostShadow

KUVA JAVLOK

Ahh enter the keyboard psychologist.

Your lack of an answer is an answer in itself.

I just think that making condescending, immature remarks about another person’s viewpoint shows that you must not have a very sound argument if you have to resort to these tactics. Also, are you referring to content where several other Warframes thrive because they are better optimized by design/application than Styanax? Content that DE put in the game to be more challenging and relevant than the normal star chart? Why do you think all the Warframe YouTubers don’t bother with making videos on basic star chart? Because it’s a joke. You can randomly select mods for your Warframe and weapons and clear the star chart. You’re right though. I probably just “play badly.” Have you even cleared the star chart? I’m genuinely curious at this point.

What? Your vocabulary and punctuation make it very difficult to make sense of the points you are trying to make. Uhh no. Using a mechanic frequently is not abuse. Again, the Overguard gate was implemented with the intention of it being utilized. If you think Overguard-gating is abuse, then you must also think shield-gating is abuse. If that’s the case, I don’t know what to say. You’re just wrong. I didn’t suggest using DR mods. I simply said that they do not function to negate damage to Overguard. Rolling Guard is only useful when your Overguard is depleted. Using it while Overguard is still active doesn’t really benefit you much. Stalling doesn’t really do anything for you. You’re still going to lose your Overguard faster than you can gain it back. Yes, I’m aware of how actual DR is calculated. Paper DR is still 64% with Aviator and Aerodynamic. Also, the actual DR with these 2 mods is 54.4%, not 49.6%. Holy cow. You’re talking about base Steel Path. No wonder you think everything is fine. You do know that every single Warframe in the game can breeze through base Steel Path with decent gear, right? Please take Styanax solo to Steel Path Mot Survival or Lua Conjunction Survival. Once you have done that, then we can have a conversation about how “invincible” Styanax is and how easy it is to keep his Overguard up. Thank you! Finally someone who actually seems to have experienced the same issues that I have run into with Styanax. The people saying he is just fine are just playing star chart or watching outdated videos on how “immortal” Styanax is (was). You’re definitely right about Overguard being overrated. People act like it’s God-mode or something. The fact is that the Overguard gain from Intrepid Stand is abysmal at mid to high level Steel Path. To put it into perspective, Intrepid Stand grants 60 Overguard per Javelin thrown in Final Stand that damages an enemy. The number of javelins thrown scales off of duration. At 155% duration, there are 47 javelins thrown during Final Stand. In theory, if every single javelin hit an enemy (which is not likely going to be the case), you would only gain 2,820 Overguard per cast of Final Stand. That is literally nothing in Steel Path. Also, Final Stand is a channeled ability. The base duration of the ability is 2.5s. With the aforementioned 155% duration, Final Stand will be channeled for 3.9s. That is roughly 728 Overguard per second (assuming all 47 of your javelins damage an enemy). Enemies in Steel Path can easily hit considerably higher than 728 per shot. Try getting shot by multiple enemies while channeling Final Stand. Only then will you understand the struggle.

Everything you are saying points to a Revenant problem. The thought that ‘Styanax having a similar survivability measure to Revenant will therefore make Revenant irrelevant’ is a Revenant problem, not a Styanax problem. Revenant needs some love, along with many other older Warframes. That doesn’t mean we can’t have a discussion about improving a newer Warframe for fear of jeopardizing the viability of an older Warframe. Also, using the ‘Overguard gate’ mechanic is not abuse. Just like shield-gating is not abuse. Calling something ‘abuse’ is implying that it is a mechanic or feature that was not intended to be used a certain way or to a certain degree; ie. bug abuse. Overguard-gating is not abuse. The .5sec I-frame on Overguard depletion was literally implemented into the game with the intention of there being a “gate” mechanic. Huh? Are you asking because you don’t know or you think I am incorrect? I genuinely can’t decipher what you are asking. Damage reduction mods do not apply to Overguard. I’m not sure what the confusion is. What??? 24% DR while airborne from Aerodynamic and 40% DR while airborne from Aviator equals 64% DR; which, as I previously stated, does not benefit Overguard. I don’t have to imagine it in Steel Path because I have literally tested it in Steel Path.. Also, Overguard and shield-gating isn’t reliable with Styanax.. I have explained why multiple times. Go back and read my previous responses if you don’t understand. With an introductory statement such as this, it is clear the level of maturity I am dealing with here.. Again, Revenant’s relevance should not be dependent on 1 ability. That’s a discussion for Revenant though. Giving Styanax a similar survivability measure to Revenant should not make Revenant irrelevant. If it does, that’s a Revenant problem and any grievances should reflect such. Lastly, I literally offered an alternative suggestion to my ‘Spartan Skin’ idea in my original response, so take a breath.

Star chart is irrelevant in a conversation about how a Warframe performs. Any Warframe does well in star chart. Even base Steel Path is questionable when determining how a Warframe performs. Adaptation, Aerodynamic, Aviator or any other damage reduction mod DOES NOT reduce damage to Overguard. When Styanax’s survivability revolves around using the Intrepid Stand augment, ie. Overguard, these mods are a wasted slot. Also, no one is taking Styanax to SP endurance since his nerf. Change my mind.

I’m perfectly calm, “my dude.” You are the one resorting to patronizing remarks because someone has a different point of view than you. That shows your level of maturity (or lack thereof). Saying that something doesn’t work too well at high levels does not mean that the OP is saying the ability is bad. Saryn’s Miasma is useless at high levels, that doesn’t mean it’s a bad ability. It’s actually a fantastic ability up to a certain point. Could it use some adjustments to make it scale better into higher level content? Absolutely. The same thing could be said for Mesa’s Regulators.. as well as many other abilities. The OP is just voicing a similar sentiment about Styanax’s 4. The OP offered a suggestion on changing Styanax’s 2 to add more survivability, yes. However, he never explicitly said that the armor strip function should be removed from the ability. He just said something about it having a different animation and adding damage reduction. You should ask the OP for clarification before jumping to conclusions. You are dealing in absolutes. Something can be good, but can still be better. Just because something can be better, doesn’t mean that it’s not good. Food for thought.

Well I agree with you on that point. His 4 is not not an issue. Really none of his abilities are an issue. The issue is with his survivability. Maybe you have or others could have before he was nerfed. I’m not talking about what Styanax used to be able to do. I’m talking about now. I can tell you for certain that you cannot take him to Mot SP Survival and maintain his Overguard in the current state. Maybe in a team setting with heavy CC and less aggro. Maybe. I would venture to say that you are being dishonest if you are saying that you can maintain Styanax’s Overguard in the current state in higher level SP. If you can, then post a video to prove it. These “several others” you refer to are seeming to elude my YouTube search results. I can’t find a single video that has been posted recently (less than 1 month) showing Styanax performing well in a solo Steel Path survival. You submitted a reply following my reply, but did not quote the OP to direct your response. It seemed to me that you were simply questioning the general idea that Styanax needs some adjustments to his kit/abilities. I think he does. Hence why I defended my position. Also, the OP never said that Styanax’s abilities are not good. He just offered ideas on how he thought they could be improved.

Taking Styanax to level cap proves nothing about whether or not he is a good Frame. People take Inaros to level cap. The only video on YouTube I see of someone taking Styanax to level cap, the person is spamming Operator arcanes for I-frames and CC. The Intrepid Stand augment does not make Styanax “functionally invincible.” Not even close. If you think the Overguard doesn’t get melted in literal seconds, then go right now to Steel Path Mot Survival solo. No matter what combination of mods and Arcanes you go with, you will not be able to gain Overguard faster than it breaks. You will have to focus all of your efforts on shield gating at that point. As I stated in my previous response, you cannot reliably shield gate when you are locked in the ability animation of your 4. Ie. you will die. Also, I didn’t say anything about his abilities not being good. They are all excellent abilities and have a very good synergy. He has potential to be among the best Warframes in the game. The problem lies in his survivability. If you think his Overguard is good or makes him “invincible,” you are clearly playing star chart or base Steel Path. It does not make Revenant irrelevant. There are many Warframes with functionally identical abilities that have just a different look or animation. Also, I gave a suggestion for keeping the Overguard mechanic on Styanax. Considering that I mentioned having 6 Forma and an Umbra Forma on Styanax, I can assure you that I have tried all of the mods you mentioned. Aviator is negligible damage reduction. I’ve also used it in conjunction with the Aerodynamic Aura mod. 64% damage reduction still does not keep Overguard up while using his 4 with Intrepid Stand. Quick Thinking is useless in Steel Path and is a wasted mod slot. Molt Reconstruct makes no sense to put on a Warframe that is not made for health tanking. If you are taking damage to your health, that literally proves my point that Overguard and shield gating on Styanax are not reliable. Also, if you take damage to your health at higher levels, then you are dead. Yes, Overguard has a gate (minimal). Yes, shields have a gate. It still does not prevent you from dying while casting your 4. Either you have not played to a high enough level to experience this or you are being carried by a team, drawing aggro away from you.

I beg to differ. Maybe for base Steel Path he does well, but not much more than that. I have 6 Forma and an Umbra Forma installed on Styanax, so trust me, I want him to be good. I currently have Nourish in place of his 1. I’ve tried Silence as well as a few other Helminth abilities. Nourish is just the best choice to pair Viral with the Slash damage/procs from his 4 and for the passive boost to energy gain. That being said, he still lacks survivability. Especially considering the fact that he literally has an ability that is a taunt (pulls aggro away from teammates). With that in mind, Styanax should be much tankier than he is. The overguard from the Intrepid Stand augment gets melted in seconds, leaving you with a a glorified shield-gating Warframe. With the Decaying Dragon Key equipped, his base shields are 188. This makes it difficult to shield-gate reliably unless you use Brief Respite and 3 Augur mods. The problem with trying to shield gate on Styanax is that when you are casting his 4, you cannot use other abilities and therefore cannot shield gate. The Overguard gained from Intrepid Stand does not keep up with the incoming damage. This will inevitably cause you to get killed mid-cast in your 4. What Styanax really needs is to gain stacks of a Mesmer Skin equivalent (shall I suggest ‘Spartan Skin’?) from Intrepid Stand, not Overguard. There could be a cap on the number of charges that would scale off of power strength. The charges should also grant I-frames on breaking, just like Mesmer Skin. If they are going to stick to Overguard on Styanax, DE needs to increase the gain (not the cap) from the Intrepid Stand augment. They should also change Styanax’s passive (which is honestly useless right now) to a 90% damage reduction while casting his 4. Lastly, DE should make Styanax’s Axios Javelein (what he throws in his 4, not his first ability) an exalted weapon that can be modded with melee mods. This would help with damage scaling on his 4 at higher levels and would also help with his survivability; ie. enemies die quicker and don’t damage him as much.

Any part of this song: It’s such a vibe!

So there’s no denying that many of the Warframe ability augment mods were added as a “fix” for abilities that were overall lacking to some degree. Many abilities just feel incomplete without an augment. My suggestion is to add an augment mod slot for each ability and take away the augment mod drain. There are plenty of Warframes that do not need an augment. Why are the Warframes that essentially do need an augment penalized mod capability? Take Ash’s Teleport ability, for instance. The ability teleports Ash to a targeted enemy and opens the enemy up to finishers. The Fatal Teleport augment mod was added because the ability just seems so incomplete without it. Another example that everyone knows of is Excalibur’s Chromatic Blade augment. The ability just doesn’t perform very well without it. I’d be curious to know who isn’t using this augment with Excalibur. There are numerous examples of abilities that just don’t work very well without an accompanying augment mod. I don’t see a downside to implementing this into the game. The market for augments would not suffer, as there would still be a demand for them. In fact, the demand would arguably be higher if this were implemented. It would, of course, buff some Warframes to a degree, but I can’t think of anything that would be game-breaking.. As far as Helminth abilities go, it could be just like it is now where the augment mod is available to whichever frame the ability is infused on. This would be a great QoL improvement for a lot of Warframes. Please make this happen, DE. EDIT: I meant to post this under Warframes Feedback.. oops.

False. As I stated before, I did not start the conversation of real guns. Reading is difficult I suppose.. I agree that fall-off is a problem in itself. However, even if the fall-off mechanic were removed entirely, it would still not bring melee into balance with ranged weapons. Melee still falls short, even against single targets. Take a single SP Corrupted Heavy Gunner of any higher level (150+) and see how your TTK is with your best melee (excluding giga-Chad Glaive Prime) and do the same test with any decently built ranged weapon in your arsenal.

I didn’t initiate the discussion of real guns. Maybe you should direct your remarks to the person who did. You should consider actually contributing to the topic instead of inserting your opinion where (ironically enough) no one cares to hear it.

Do you even own a gun? Do you know anything about kinetic energy? Ballistic coefficient? How about wound channels or the tumbling effect 5.56NATO rounds have? Subsonic vs. supersonic rounds? It seems you are the one who is not informed. Stop playing CoD and watching TV. Educate yourself before insulting someone. You are only making yourself look foolish. Edit: I just noticed your usage of the word “proper”, which leads me to believe you are UK-based. It is starting to make sense now why you have a lack of understanding of firearms.

I am being pretty fair with my comparison actually. A sword strike to someone’s torso will be much more lethal (quicker) than a shot from a 5.56 rifle. I do plenty of research on ballistics and edged weaponry. You should do some research yourself before trying to derail a valid comparison. Also, you brought up armor which is irrelevant to this conversation. Anyone going into armed combat is wearing body armor. You are the one who is making outlandish comparisons. A shotgun is in a much higher tier than a sword would be in. A shotgun would be better compared to a 2H battle axe or something of the likes. You keep talking about Roar like it is comparable to the buff provided if Galvanized melee mods were added. It is not. I don’t know if you understand how Roar works, but it isn’t something to be compared with a buff that would benefit upfront damage. I tried explaining why that is, but you are either misinterpreting or not understanding what I’m saying. I said that it would be a QoL improvement because adding the mods that I suggested would allow us to add more mods like attack speed or range mods on melee. While obviously this would increase the damage output for melee (I never said it wouldn’t), I think mods like attack speed or range (for melee) or fire rate and reload speed (ranged) are both QoL improvements and overall DPS increases. Sometimes something can be two things at once. QoL does not necessarily mean that there is no benefit to DPS. For example, swinging a melee weapon faster or not having to move as much to hit targets is a QoL improvement. Reloading a shotgun faster is a QoL improvement.

I mean.. I listed examples of why I believe melee is high risk and/or higher risk than ranged. I have yet to see anyone give a sound argument for why ranged has equal or greater risk than melee; but I digress.

I never said it was affected by enemy level. I said it was a negligible increase in upfront damage against lower level enemies, which is true. Roar/faction mods are more beneficial for increasing damage from DoTs, rather than upfront damage. Enemies at lower level SP do not live long enough to reap the benefits from Roar/faction mods. Well I’m not trying to be rude. That was just kind of an elitist introduction you made in your post. It was essentially implying that your opinion is superior because you have invested Forma into weapons and done testing. Who hasn’t?

What I meant by that statement is that Roar/Faction mods have a negligible increase to upfront damage at lower level SP. Melee benefits more from upfront damage over DoT buffs at lower level SP. You can survive a gunshot wound or even multiple gunshot wounds. You’re not going to survive being cut in half by a sword or smashed with a warhammer. Enough said. Also, archery and/or guns were invented to, not only be effective, but to reduce the risk for the end user. Be careful. Your elitism is showing. Putting Forma into weapons does not make you an expert or a superior opinion. Most of the melee weapons in my arsenal have 4-5 Forma installed. I have maxed out all of my mods and have the primed versions if available. I spend a lot of my time in 1-2hr+ SP runs and in the Simulacrum. Heavy attack builds are clunky and only work on weapons with forced slash on heavy attacks. Heavy attack builds also rely on only using heavy attacks to be truly effective. Light attack builds are only viable with crit-based, slash-favored weapons and require maintaining constant 12X combo. Even then, it takes multiple hits to take down enemies like non-Eximus Heavy Gunners or Bombards. Ranged weapons are brain-dead in comparison. There is little to no ramp-up to full damage output potential and you don’t have to worry about upkeep of combo or priming. You just point, shoot and everything dies near instantaneously. You’re more likely to be susceptible to all of the following over ranged weapons: Knockdowns Eximus abilities Nullifiers Acolyte abilities Infested toxin clouds Nox Enemy melee attacks (duh) Enemy AI targeting priority Need I go on? There are more that I can add to the list.. It is either ignorant or just plain foolish to think that melee is not high risk and/or higher risk than ranged. I am not overestimating anything.

I have used Roar with melee on a few different builds. It is good for endurance runs to free up the Primed Smite mod slot, but that’s about it. It doesn’t really affect the damage output much until 1-2hr+ SP. Melee shouldn’t have to rely on a WF Helminth ability to be relevant though. Ranged/AOE weapons can clear rooms in SP, even on endurance runs, without relying on WF helminth abilities or really any WF abilities at all. Ranged weapons also don’t rely on WF Arcanes either. Many melee builds rely on Arcane Strike and Arcane Fury to be viable. I do agree with another suggestion someone had for dedicated melee Arcanes as well, but I feel like Galvanized Melee mods would be a nice QoL improvement for melee. I am convinced that everyone saying that melee is “fine” are the same people with 0 melee kills on every mission they run. Entertain me and run melee only (less than 100 primary kills or so) for a 1-2hr SP survival. Let me know how it is compared using an AOE nuke ranged weapon or even a good shotgun build. The TTK for melee is nowhere near as low as the TTK for ranged on single target or mobs. This just doesn’t make sense. Melee should be high risk-high reward. Right now it is just high risk-meh reward.

Yeah that’s kind of why I haven’t bothered to record any of my findings. I just observe a consistent discrepancy in total kills vs. melee kills. I rarely see players with a substantial number of melee kills. Several missions I go on, some players will have literally 0 melee kills. I genuinely would be open to being proven wrong, but I am pretty confident that melee usage among mid/endgame players is minimal in comparison to ranged weapons.

I estimate melee usage to be around 30% (maybe even lower) based on what I see in SP/Arbi missions. I don’t have the actual data though. I don’t even know if DE publishes a comparison of weapon type usage (not to be confused with comparing usage of weapons of the same type). It’s just an estimate of what I see on the day-to-day grind. I think for DE to get a somewhat accurate representation of weapon type balance, they would have to look at the data among players who at least have cleared the Star Chart and have started SP/Arbi. I’ll consider recording some of my own public mission stats (excluding when exalted melee frames are in the mission). I do agree with what you’re saying about ranged being more effective than melee even if melee receives a buff. However, I think a lot of people are not using ranged weapons only because they are more effective. I think people use them because they are powerful and effective. People want to feel powerful. It’s what makes the game fun. If melee were more powerful, it would inherently be more effective. Of course, even if ranged and melee theoretically had the same damage output, ranged would be more effective than melee. However, again, I don’t think effectiveness is the main reason ranged weapons are used over melee.

While I agree with you on the mechanics of melee vs. ranged being partly to blame for the imbalance, I think you are wrong about melee damage output not affecting the usage. People would use melee weapons more often if they were as powerful as ranged weapons. Before the nerfs to Blood Rush, Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds, melee was used at a much higher rate than ranged weapons. The only reasoning for this is that the damage output was higher, therefore melee weapons were just more effective than ranged weapons. People are not just using ranged weapons because they are lazy, it’s because melee is not as effective as an alternative to ranged weapons. I do agree that AoE vs. single target is a problem and should also be addressed, but that doesn’t change my sentiment. Even single target weapons like the MR8 Fulmin can melt through level 150 SP Eximus Heavy Gunners with the use of Galvanized Mods and a primary Arcane with little to no buildup to the full power potential. With that being said, why would you be against buffing melee damage output if you don’t think it will have a significant affect the overall usage? How is 1/4 to 1/3 of usage balanced? Nobody said it was balanced when melee was being used at these same rates over ranged weapons. Balanced would be 50/50. Plain and simple.

I find it very hard to believe that you see plenty of players primarily using melee. Maybe we have different definitions of plenty. I look at the mission stats after every mission and I would strongly disagree. I would estimate the usage to be about 70% ranged/30% melee at best. Also, I feel like it should go without saying that exalted melees should be ruled out of consideration when looking at melee usage.