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Everything posted by Angwah

  1. Yes, I agree in essence. It's just a thing to keep in mind that a more linear damage scale offers a much narrower range of damage output. Level 1 to level 10k needs to fit between Braton Mk1 with flawed and fully tricked out top-end weapons. That is a lot of scaling! Ok, ok, again: a mod providing multishot or firerate can definitely increase dps. There is absolutely no problem with that! After all, it is what they do now, but without being explicit about it. If a mod increases your dps, why not clearly let it state by how much? What is the upside in being opaque or more importantly making it an automatic consequence of increasing multishot and the like Because there are definitely more upsides to separating the fire/multishot increase and the damage increase besides transparency. Like opening a lot of design space! Multishot + status? Why not? Fire rate + ammo efficiency? Can be done! A whole new range of valuable modding options opens up if you decouple damage from the stuff which now automatically provides that, and I really see no reason why this should not be possible.
  2. Hehe, it was very clear in my head, but yeah, apparently failed to communicate properly :-) Anyway, yes, your suggestion definitely will curb the worst excesses. What I was aiming at was going a step further and decoupling DPS increases, especially multipliers from everything else as much as possible. If a mod increases your DPS, it does so by the value it explicitly states. Let us use multishot as an example. It is currently a pure dps multiplier (with added bonus of more chances to proc status). Why allow multishot to be a damage multiplier? Just let the multishot keyword be just that, splitting up your damage into smaller packages with a separate proc chances. Now, if you want a mod which gives multishot to also increase damage, sure, why the hell not, after all they do so now, but do that separately, with the added bonus of it now becoming additive damage instead of multiplicative. The same would go for fire rate and the other 'hidden' multipliers. Eh, nah. It is a stated objective of DE to make the higher MR weapons more powerful than the lower MR ones. Our current system just makes that a pipedream, and whether that is a good design in the first place is also another question. so I am just running with it for now. There are other ways. I don't consider weapon capacity your core dps budget. Eventually you get the mods, max them out and if necessary forma your weapon enough to put them in. Doesn't matter what the weapon is, all your weapon capacity and mods do is making your weapon's base stats scale. Okay, as I said above, that DE actually wants higher MR weapons to be more powerful, with a more linear and flat damage curve we also need to consider that our current game lets us go up against enemies which scale from level 1 to level 10K. That is a wide, wide range to cope with, so some progression in the base stats of our weapons to couple with mods scaling that will be helpful, if not necessary, in bridging that range in a good way.
  3. You misunderstand. You can definitely increase dps with mods, but they have to do so explicitly, not implicitely in order to avoid rof/weapon speed/multishot and the like being straight up multipliers. Because multipliers bad and stuff. I fully expect those mods to have a combination of both (like +X multishot, +X dps). Going that route is certainly a possibility, but I do think we need a wider range in the dps budget than just 5 MR levels as these weapons + mods need to be able to deal with a much greater level range of enemies. A possible way of doing that would be to roll '+ dps' into a new stat, let's call it (melee/ranged) weapon power for now, which gives you more dps based on the player's MR, not the weapon's, giving us a much wider range to play with. However, besides the argument that higher MR weapon's should have a higher dps budget, this does not automatically mean that they would be better for a particular player. We are after all no longer stacking multipliers so the gap between the good and bad will not be the yawning abyss it is nowadays. You may prefer another stance for melee weapons, or dislike a ranged weapon's range/handling/ammo economy or rate of fire, and you will not be so harshly penalized for going off-meta. Eh, well, depends on your definition of challenging, I guess? I'm not talking end-game MMO raid content, but the more basic stuff. Right now, even if DE builds mini-bosses like liches, sisters, demolishers, acolytes or the treasurers who are supposed to have to have to be engaged with they have to resort to immunities, convoluted damage attenuation schemes and/or rocket tag gameplay, let alone actual bosses. And even with all that, they can still be deleted in the blink of an eye, so eh, it's not even working. There isn't much they have introduced in the last couple of patches that didn't basically cancel wide swaths of our arsenal. Besides what I mentioned above, there is also the Vault Necramechs, the Glassmaker, Orphix Venom and I'm probably forgetting plenty. It's also not accidental that the new content is heavily featuring gameplay where we're not in our warframes. That said, not going to lie, I would welcome some content which would be intense solo or even in a squad.
  4. The way the damage system and modding is built in WF really is in need of a serious overhaul. It being in essence exponential means it simply can not handle endless expansion without at some point breaking down, and we have arrived at that point a while ago. It either pushes the final damage to either a meaninglessly high or low number. In addition, where they set certain core stats which enter multiplier madness will either make a weapon broken OP or useless, and that point balances on a razor's edge. To be constructive, let us consider a system going for balance between weapons, while attempting to keep all the stats we have now: - Weapons are built around a DPS budget which grows with a weapons MR budget. Multipliers will no longer be used, everything is additive. DPS will be the base stat we work with. For ranged weapons DPS obviously includes reloading downtime, and also obviously crit damage. When we get to modding and buffs, we aggressively separate anything that increases damage from the rest. Also would do away with the %-based increases from mods and make everything additive. - An average range, fall-off, accuracy, etc is determined when building a weapon. Going below the average obviously gives bonus dps, and the reverse would be true as well. - This means that when building a weapon from the base budget, and also when modding, increasing crit chance, multishot or weapon speed/RoF, would not increase a weapon's DPS. If a mod or buff wishes to increase both RoF and DPS or CC and DPS for example, it would have to do both separately instead of being a straight up automatic multiplier. The exemption would be modding the stats such as accuracy, projectile speed, magazine size, reload, etc. These hidden multipliers can remain, and we want the feel and handling of a weapon to matter. - All damage increases, from buffs, to crits, to mods, really, from anywhere, would just be added together. The hit-location and stealth multipliers I would change into increased crit chance. - The end-result is aimed at a more controlled and linear damage-curve. This of course means enemy scaling can be matched to that, and opens up building encounters that can be challenging again, without turning off status effects/powers/whatever. Also stuff like damage-reflection, dominating enemies and all that become viable again, as well as actual squad-based play with good synergies.
  5. Well, yeah, melee is still king, especially before you get the arcanes and galv mods. But defining the 'best melee' weapons is much harder as they are much closer together. Having a good riven makes a much greater difference for example, and you have to click with a particular stance. Stropha is definitely a stand-out. You also can't go wrong with Nikana Prime, Kronen Prime, Reaper Prime, Gram Prime and polearms like Orthos Prime and Lesion. My current favorite is my Sepfahn with the Blind Justice stance, which I can definitely recommend, but really, I also had fun with machetes, big hammers, etc. It all works. Same with which way you go. Heavy attack, crit, status, hybrid, it's all good.
  6. And yet, for what they're worth, you will find them in at top spots in most up-to-date tier lists. Some might be tier S in one, tier A in another, but I would personally rate only the Tombfinger and Tenet Tetra as pure tier A. But who cares, it's just mostly meaningless labels, the performance gap is minimal, they are all capable of wiping out maps. I guess beyond the Ignis Wraith, Cedo and Acceltra I already mentioned, we could also add Bubonico and Trumna as imho top tier. And add honorable mentions for the likes of solid tier A primaries like Staltha, Kuva Tonkor, Kuva Ogris, Corinth Prime, Fulmin and Phantasma. Any more suggestions?
  7. Eh, personal preferences aside as the question wasn't what we enjoy the most, the weapons in that list certainly work well. Good AOE and the stats to back them up. They can clear maps on any level and in the overwhelming majority of mission types that would be all you need. They are most certainly not out of place in any list with the most powerful general purpose weapons, which is what the OP seemingly asked for. Since this is the type of question that betrays relative unfamiliarity with the game, the only objections I could raise is that the OP might not have the mods/support to elevate some of those entries to full-on OP brokenness in a sustainable way, but eh, plenty of 'em work as advertised on a budget of standard mods and little to no formas until at least SP. Feel free to add what you think are the most powerful weapons!
  8. Eh, you know, there are valid arguments for changing/shortening the crafting timers, also from a business and moneymaking perspective. The game has changed after all, and there are so many more weapons, frames and whatnot. Faster and easier acquisition of those may indeed keep more potential new players on board. You get stuck in that first frame for way too long. The game would be well-served by showcasing what sets it apart, and part of that is the wide variation of frames you can choose from. Besides, it puts more pressure on the need for additional slots, The craft timer can be waited out, but no matter how long it takes, if you have no slot to put it in, it's just going to sit there in the foundry looking shiny, so either way, DE is going to collect.
  9. Some lower MR entries in the primary category would be Cedo, Acceltra and Ignis Wraith (8-8-9) if liches and sisters are beyond you. Those will also not fail you whatever content you do. The list of viable melee weapons is huge. That is more a matter of what stances you have and work for you.
  10. In that clip the Bramma is still way more powerful than those Mk1 weapons, without reducing them to utter irrelevance, which is how it should be. Your mileage obviously varies, but when it comes to ranged weapons feeling the same and just like skins is actually the current state of the game to me. The vast majority of the arsenal is exactly the same: not worth equipping. And for the rest it is just a choice of what I see in my frame's hands and which particle effects accompany clearing the map in the general direction of my mouse pointer. Admittedly there might be some variation in how I click my buttons (keep pressing, alt-fire or simply fire and forget), but that's basically it. Without jumping through a lot of hoops weapons basically have 2 damage codes: 'tickle' or 'splat'. Sure, picking the regular star map and not SP makes a greater portion of my arsenal viable, mainly because the lower spawn rate makes single target weapons less of a failure state, but the main experience of not feeling much of a difference between weapons is still there: everything just goes 'splat'. The handling, quirks and 'feel' of a particular gun just go out of the window when they become point and click. Notable exceptions to me are bows of the non-exploding variety, snipers and throwing weapons, but alas, there is little to no incentive to use them. The main contributors are well-known, the out of the control exponential damage system which has become really bad at finding a sweet spot in regards to damage and tends to push the output to the extremes, coupled with the ease and efficiency of many of our aoe weapons relative to those who lack that capability.
  11. Oh, I agree that it should be reasonable to classify weapons based on their unmodded dps, and I hope one day we can. But in part for the reasons @Aldain mentioned and how those base stats can basically be multiplied beyond anything a sane scaling system could cope with or even predict that day is still a way off. Anyway, that is a separate discussion. On topic: ranged weapons are certainly better.
  12. This is all well and good, but the only conclusion for now is that the MR system ought to reflect the general power of our arsenal, but that it does not. You also touch on something that indeed makes any classification currently pointless, namely that the modding/damage system does things to those base stats. Unspeakable things.
  13. Ok, sure, we could do that. Doesn't address all the high MR weapons that aren't all that good. So much of what makes a weapon 'good' is having access to decent AOE. The current MR system obviously does not (sufficiently) take this into account. Currently looking at the wiki-page with the MR weapon unlocks and, no, that tracks very poorly with the power of those weapons in actual play.
  14. Eh... There are high MR weapons which are crap, but also lower MR weapons which are clearly standouts: Acceltra: MR 8 Cedo: MR 8 Ignis Wraith: MR 9 None of these is worse at clearing maps than say Bubonico (MR 13), Proboscis Cernos (MR 15) or the Bramma, let alone around 50-60% as good. The relationship between MR and a weapon's power is not exactly one-on-one.
  15. The lines between which platform you play on will continue to blur into non-existence. That is an evolution which will not stop. Also, platform does not dictate the quality of the game. There have always been crap, money-grabbing and derivative games. And like cinema, don't expect the AAA releases which (by now) cost hundreds of millions to produce to be where the studios will gamble on being innovative. Those will almost always be about appealing to the mass market with established brands and proven concepts. However, like in cinema, from arthouse and indi movies to the shift from movies to series, there is always plenty of stuff happening. In fact, plenty examples of games which started small and niche turning into industry powerhouses.
  16. Eh, we lack the data to properly discuss this. We neither know how much plat is spent on rushing the foundry nor how many players drop the game over this issue. I personally never felt the urge to hurry them (might have done it by mistake once though). There are better things to spend it on and at the stage you are building a lot you have about a bazillion other things to do, but who knows, might be a money maker for DE. Anyway, there are plenty of things that can be done to tighten the NPE, and reviewing this could be part of it. There are after all much more frames and weapons nowadays, but I would first look at putting the base gear, mods and crafting materials you can get in the star map in token vendor shops in the three 'quest hubs'. Add specific planet based dailies/mini-sorties to get extra tokens and guide and boost the new player through progress on the star map and gear up.
  17. We are starting to approach the core of the problem: it is impossible to assume an average level of multipliers. Base damage mods, elemental damage mods, faction damage mods, crit chance, crit damage, multishot, fire rate, various arcanes, frame buffs, status effects, frame buffs, weapon type bonuses, DR, armor stripping, etc, etc... At which step of the calculation these come into play, what base stats these start from, what you are using it at, all of it works together to push the direction in a certain way to an extreme extent. Hell, armor stripping alone can easily create a variation of up to x20 damage and more!
  18. Ok, please revisit how enemies scale. It's all multipliers, on both the output side as well as the input side. Hence, it would not be reduction in power for the players. The fact you would not see such big numbers is offset by an equivalent reduction in ehp, not to mention a much smoother curve of dps vs ehp. Currently enemies are either big bullet sponges you need to empty entire clips in or wet tissue paper, and it really doesn't take much to flip from one to the other. The 'sweet spot' has become almost impossible to land on. I would argue entirely impossible actually. Ah, and yes, adjust the base stats. Easy and simple right? Except, it is obviously not easy and simple. You may have noticed DE struggling with it, time and time again. Because the interminable string of multiplications makes even small adjustments wherever you do them, including the base, have extremely outsized effects, leading to the above 'whiff-or-splat' effect.
  19. Oh boy... :-) So, adding instead of multiplying makes everything the same and boring? Right! Good to know! Yes, absolutely makes sense...
  20. This is simply not true. You would still have the variety of weapons and builds you have now. Just because you add and subtract instead of multiply and divide numbers wouldn't change that. The Cedo would still be a very different weapon as the Trumna. A red crit would still do a lot more damage, a mod which gives more damage, or multishot, or status would still do just that. The numbers which come out at the end however will be saner and within a tighter spread, and hence, easier to calibrate against, because, you know, that is the difference between additions and multiplications. Yes, there would still be a meta, there will always be a meta, and it will still be aoe, but that is fine. The main goal should be how we can have tougher fights without disabling our damage/status effects/powers/whatever. Because now we can't. And that's silly.
  21. Yes, but if players' damage and enemies' ehp scale with additive bonuses instead of multipliers it would be much easier to build fun and challenging encounters without resorting to 99% DR's, immunities or downright damage caps and whatnot. The math would be much more stable and predictable and less prone to downright breaking. None of this would make players weaker, make anything boring or whatever else.
  22. It's not about the Stropha or melee specifically. It's definitely a good weapon, but for the purposes of this example one which does its thing in nice, easily observable chunks, without adding many variables such as scaling mods, procs and the like. Anyway, that damage is not an exaggeration and easily verified. Take a heavy attack Stropha into a SP mission with a frame like Ivara so you have the time to really look at the numbers and against which mobs you see what. Don't prime, don't buff, just heavy attack stuff. Ok, Ivara gets some bonuses on headshots, but whatever, it's still pretty clean. You can see wild variances depending on what you catch in your attack and where/how, e.g. several millions on the lancer, to thousands on the heavy gunner standing next to it. For the purposes of science (obviously), and even further drive that point home, put shuriken with the augment on that Ivara. Now you basically have a switch to change their ehp into their actual hp. Use it on the next high armor target. Now you can truly behold and wonder at the mismatch between our damage-output and their hitpoints. Go look up on the wiki by which factor you multiplied your weapons base damage and check the enemies health, and the discrepancy between the two. And mainly by how much the underlying system must reduce our damage to present us with a 'tougher' opponent you have to hit more than once. Play around with it, add or remove some damage (types) and/or crit chance. The Stropha is, again, a pretty simple and straightforward weapon to do this with. Observe how fragile this string of multiplications and divisions is and how easily it goes from doing ok damage to crap, and vice versa. Yeah, I know, we all know about the scaling DR and ehp in theory, but I invite you to do this and really look at the numbers appearing on your screen and get a real feel for it. Ranged can do just the same, of course: Ignis Wraith, Acceltra, Cedo, Bramma, Trumna, Bubonico, the new Zar, Proboscis Cerno, Tenet Arca Plasmor and Envoy are all ridiculous room-clearing beasts regardless of what Frame you equip them on. Note: the list is longer, these are just the usual suspects you see most often. Any of these you can rely on to carry you through whatever SP mission. Add the usual tricks to make them scale beyond what enemies can deal with, no matter what their level. The list obviously changes (slightly) for places where single target dps is favored, such as Disruption and taking out high level demolishers, but you get the point. As for your remark about melee specifically requiring a survival mechanic, I would argue that there is little difference in that regard to melee vs ranged. There might be some things one approach may need to watch out more for than the other, but eh, nothing that truly changes anything on a fundamental level. I certainly have not experienced that closing with melee or its animations leave me more vulnerable than going shooty.
  23. I agree that player survivability being too high is an issue. It's not just shieldgate + rolling guard beyond the 2 hour mark in an endless. Below that level where the game turns into rocket tag there's just too many ways to be basically immortal with minimal effort. But even with a bog standard heavy attack build with a weapon like a stropha, i.e. not relying virus+slash+heat or the scaling mods, and without any buffs you really don't have many SP enemies which won't get one-shotted. That is actually fine. But you can go so much farther than that. Ten million actual hitpoints? With enough armor to have 99,9999% DR? Who cares! There are multiple ways to handle that in a few seconds! Doesn't matter how much damage enemies can do if they can't retaliate. In my opinion both survivability and dealing damage must be within a reasonable range before fun and sensible encounters can be made.
  24. Meh, you are both too invested in proving each other wrong to have an actual conversation ;-) Anyway, I was among that wave of players that left WoW around Wrath. The main feeling in guild and others I knew it was a mix of having seen everything and them having made stuff too easy. It was AoE all-day, everyday in the dungeons and small raids. You could just ding max level, do a dungeon and immediately follow up with the epic version, which was a far cry from how it was in Burning Wrath. The big raids were still ok, but at that point I was fed up with the scheduled and mandatory play in order to not loose your raid-spot. And those big, expansion-driven MMO's invalidate and 'nerf' everything you have every time the level-cap gets pushed up or a new tier of gear comes out, so, at really regular intervals. Some destructive cycle of nerfing and chasing balance isn't why WoW is now losing players. It's producing shoddy content and a bad story. As for LoL, eh, what you say is incorrect. It had a dip in '18, going from 100 million to 75 million, but recovered and hit something like 115 million in '21? Rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated. Also, it's a pvp game, and they have always constantly balanced and rebalanced all the time. I'm sure they're fine and rolling in cash, and very much doubt the existence of any destructive cycle of nerfs sucking the fun out of the game. Back to WF, yeah, boring invulnerability without really engaging with the content isn't good, but just part of the problem. There is also the part where it is possible to reach damage outputs which are simply too high.
  25. But here's the thing, balance, like all words, means different things to different people. Some tactics/builds/weapons being better than others, as long as the difference is not too great and especially when doing different objectives and game modes, does not mean the game is imbalanced. Perfect balance is indeed impossible as well as unwanted. A healthy meta, preferably one that is not stale, is not a bad thing. And as such, slow powercreep is ok. Progression can't be all horizontal after all. And it would be nice if opposition could be created to match our growing power! However, balance is also not just two players relative to each other, but also relative to the content. And it is precisely that imbalance which explains this lack of content in which to use our top-end gear and builds. The game-system itself, the math under the hood, simply can not cope anymore and the aforementioned content simply can not be created.
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