[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

On 2024-04-21 at 5:40 PM, Darkbring said:

This isn't about Tragedy's own damage being worthwhile or not, this is about addressing the problem the devs had, if they really had any to begin with ofc. Yes, you could nerf the range to something like 20-25 meters instead of the original 30, but the question we need to ask is WHY 30 meters of initial range is such a problem. If I'm not misremembering it Pablo once said that too much ability range breaks the game, yet we have seen no evidence of that nor an explaination why. Quite the opposite, really. Even with max range Dante seemed to work just fine on any map. Perhaps damage calculation in such a large AoE on so many enemies is the problem. If it is, then removing the damage from Tragedy should solve it just as well as reducing the range would, maybe even better because it would affect even less enemies so less damage being calculated. We know Tragedy got a damage cap, so clearly damage calculations were at least a part of the problem.

That seems to be an assumption built from nothing. Theres been no mention of damage calculation numbers, at all, when Dante was discussed by any Dev. It wouldn't make sense in the slightest either because then LoS wouldn't solve that issue in the firstplace.

It was mentioned on a previous DevShort that if LoS wasn't added then the only other option was to reduce Tragedys Range considering the 30m base Range is one of the largest in the game. The only reason "initial damage" came up is because some random Forum Member wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They want LoS gone but wanted to suggest giving up something else other than Range. Which isn't even a possibility.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

20 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

I have read every single one of your comments and answered every single one of your questions. 

you have literally failed to argument against anything i have said, you throw some weak jabs that i ignore because they are childish and you dance around the arguments by spouting nosense.

Let me know if you want to discuss the issues and drop this childish attitude.

Oh thanks for reminding me, one last thing, if you can't even bother to proofread your own replies, it probably shouldn't be surprising for someone to doubt you've read anyone else's properly. Even despite the mounting, overwhelming proof.

Anyway, I'll go get back to "failed to argument" and "spouting nosense", it'll probably be far more constructive than trying to decipher whatever your point was supposed to be.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

I told you exactly why i started talking about the difference, Dante was nerfed b/c his range was disruptive in star chart not in SP, your condecending manner while being utterly confused even tho i explained the same thing a few times already is nothing short of funny at this point, being confused and having a superiority complex do not mix well together.

This is simply a lie, you cannot kill anything that is not marked, not even with 400+ strenght, stuff you or your team has not marked wont die on SP, the "several room clear" is just a fantasy you made up.

Its fairly easy to disprove your claims of multiple rooms nukes in SP, or prove them if you can, go into simulacrum, dont mark any enemy and clear the simulacrum room, his damage has not been nerfed so this should be an easy thing to demonstrate, if you cant i will just assume you are lying (because you most likely are lying). I have seen what 400+ strengh does to unmarked enemies, nowhere near close to killing most enemies.

I was patiently waiting for you to take a breath, take 10 measly minutes to actually read the previous posts you so clearly haven't yet, and was still willing to have a conversation about this. That ended when you instead decided to go the "if you're going to call me confused ill just call you confused" route. I don't say this often, considering there isn't usually a need to because most folks on here can remain mature, but that's just pathetic.

Thanks for replying though, you've contributed nothing at all but it did at least keep me occupied while cooking dinner. You're done here.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

you are the only one confused, i know exactly what you said and i answered according to that, your "its not enough to trade base damage for no LoS", you claim the LoS for base damage in SP vs Star chart comparison is not relevant but i disagree and you somehow get confused by people disagreeing with you? that's the weakest argument ever, "i got confused so i dont answer" kind of argument.

 

If you weren't confused then I'd love to know why your first reply was talking about detonations and Steel Path when literally nobody had brought up either, at all, in any of the previous posts lol. As I said, I'll be waiting for when you properly catch up and am still willing to have a conversation if you'd like, but realities have to match up here first. Maybe you just don't like it when someone points out when you're confused, but that's something you should have considered before replying to someone with completely wrong information. I can't change your choice for you.

To help get you started:

Removing Tragedys initial damage is factually pointless, yes people other than you worked out how to nuke multiple rooms with week 1 Dante, the only option to trade for No LoS is to reduce Tragedys Range. The end. Get reading please.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

3 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

you just cant do S#&$ to any room you have not been in, i was using him during first week too you could kill stuff only that you marked first in SP.

if you went through several rooms marking fast enough and managed to do that all before dark verse dots kills the enemies you kinda deserve the kills, but thats not really posible, now multiple dante's marking at the same time and then sure you could detonate stuff your teammates marked first but dante itself was never able to detonate multiple rooms he could maybe do two if lucky, unless the rest of your team was priming for you.

no, Devs did not want to consider removing the base damage from the ability, they said its either A or B they did not say it cant be C D E F or G you are adding way too much from your own to what they said, She said its either less range or LoS but there are clearly other options aswell. (even tho i would gladly take the less range for no LoS anyway).

The problem is there is a dissonance between what you are trying to say and the reason they nerfed Dante, the premise of Dante being able to kill rooms without LoS (or other players) is a lie, you need LoS to put Dark Verse so you absolutely need to have LoS at least at some point, you can move on and mark a few more enemies but that's it, no LoS is not nearly as strong as wiping several rooms in SP. This is the case for regular star chart tho, you can absolutely wipe several rooms ahead, and this is the reason DE felt he was too disruptive, in regular chart you can kill without marking, this is the reason i am telling you they should just remove the base damage and LoS, because the base damage is worthless in sp, as you said but its not worthless on star chart the reason they nerfed dante, a bunch of new ppl complaining about several rooms being killed, this is simply not the case on SP just regular star chart.

 

 

More confusion, cool.

I'm just going to wait until you finally actually revisit my previous posts instead of continuing to believe your version of what was said. I don't have the patience to entertain this weird dead end you've driven yourself into. I won't expect it to happen given how you could have done so over the last few hours, but let me know if you do actually properly read the previous posts.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

He has never been able to detonate multiple rooms in one go in SP, that is only posible in star chart, i am not confused at all, the only way you could detonate several rooms is in regular star chart (many frames can do this easily anyway, even subsumed abilities have room clearing capabilities), that's what DE considered disruptive.
Saryn can do this in sp, Dante could never do it, he needs to mark in order to detonate, so he is limited to detonate as many rooms as he has been in or his allies has been in. That's why i assume you are speaking about star chart b/c what you say makes 0 sense in SP.

You are talking as if tragedy was a super op ability, its not its just a detonator in order to not make you wait for slash ticks, that's it, i can outdps it with weapons as every ability in wf, the LoS on it just make it extremely annoying and made many stop playing dante out of annoyance, LoS is not a balance tool and it should never be considered as one, the fact that you think that this is some kind of trade were we get something and we loose something means you are not even thinking of balance tbh, i am 100% sure that outside star chart there is nothing wrong with Tragedy not having  LoS, the ability wont clear rooms and it wont do anything beside detonating, thanks to DE balancing for star chart we got a annoying version but they removing base damage would acomplish what the ability is suposed to do in both star chart and SP

Yeah that confusion is certainly still there.

Others: We can just ask them to take away Dantes Tragedys initial hit and that will get us No LoS back

Me: It won't no, the initial hit compared to the status multiplier is nothing. You're trying to trade something worthless. The only option, as confirmed by the Devs themselves, is to reduce his Range.

You: You're wrong talking about LoS being about Steel Path and detonations.

Me: I just...... I wasn't talking about....... What?

Also just an FYI, during that first week many of us did indeed have Dante wiping multiple rooms in SP. You could get his Range up to 70m and there is also more confusion there about how Tragedy works. The literal preview video for Tragedy in the menu contradicts your own version of how it works.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

6 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

the issue with Dante abilities going throw walls is mostly a normal chart thing, people not being able to hit anything before dante detonates rooms that he has not been even close to be in.

That's the reason they added LoS, its not because Steel Path, in steel path the base damage is useless pretty much and it becomes only a detonator, so we have different functionality for SP than normal mode, they made it super annoying to use in order to accomodate normal mode instead of matching its functionality from SP to normal mode.

So its not so much a equivalent exchange (irrelevant base damage for no LoS check) its more making the ability function similarly in SP and normal to be able to give it the QoL it deserves and stop the ability from being annoying af

You seem very, very confused. Nobody said anything about detonating rooms or LoS being added because of Steel Path. I'm left to assume that you just quickly looked over the post, noticed a few key words, and replied to what you thought was there instead of what's actually there.

Just in case you decide to properly read this one, my point is that reducing/removing Tragedys Initial Hit is not enough of a change in order to bring back No LoS, and that the only option is to reduce Dantes Range to get it back, so that he isn't able to detonate multiple rooms in one go. You're literally arguing against someone who brought up your own points before you.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

53 minutes ago, Pseudozz said:

Personally, I'm not even farming it until a minimum of 2-3 weeks passes. I won't farm just to find out Jade is in the dirt with dante. 

I don't even know if I have the motivation to farm it either...

It's weird how it works. Year started out great, Dante looked good, TennoCon to look forward to, new mode variations etc etc. Funny how quick that can all change. At least the Dune MMO is getting great reception so that's something to look forward to.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

5 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Ik, I understood what was proposed. And i answered that its wrong.

Again, as i said, removing that dmg its more than enough nerf to warrant removing LoS. You don't get free DoT statuses around the map. You could get infinite range with Tragedy, and still do NOTHING unless you worked first DoTs around.

Isnt a range problem at all, its a base damage problem at low levels. Its the ONLY place where Tragedy range matters if you remove LoS, since it means that you can, quite literally, cast twice your 3 looking at the ground, and then clear 2 rooms when you press 4 anyway. No DoT needed.

Saying that in some way the range is at fault, its missing the point here. And i don't care what DE thinks, they are missing the point at all fronts anyway, its clear that they dont know what they are doing.

This guy understands.

If you understood then I'm sorry, you're incorrect. The damage wouldn't warrant that much of a change. The only possibility of anyone reasonable coming to that conclusion is if they're only comparing the initial hit to its usefulness in Normal Mode. Theres no second or third options here, just the one.

If you think you can come up with a reasonable argument for why a 17k hit against Steel Path enemies is equal to a power passing through all walls, obstacles and height differentials, I'll certainly read it?

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

18 hours ago, Darkbring said:

Their maim problem with Tragedy, according to Rebecca, was the range. However, if Tragedy no longer can deal damage of it's own, then it becomes a pure detonator ability instead of a nuke like Thermal Sunder. This means the only enemies that will be damaged or die from it are the ones that were at some point within Dante's or his squad's LoS, while the rest will get literally 0 damage. This way 30m base range isn't a bit deal because you get LoS cheked through other means.

I get what you're trying to say, I really do, but what you're trying to say is also an attempt to walk on eggshells around what is clearly a worthless bargain.

You give up nothing. The 17k hit I mentioned before in proper (endgame) content is nothing. Does next-to-nothing. I genuinely don't want this to sound rude but I don't want to hear about the initial hits usefulness in "normal content" or any other similar semantics.

If anyone here actually wants No LoS back, you have to be reasonable. Saying the initial hit is worthwhile is like complaining about a drop of water on your arm whilst you're already diving into the ocean. If it was gone or bugged tomorrow, do you honestly think anyone other than the folks who track numbers on spreadsheets would notice?

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

1 hour ago, Gaxxian said:

But Tragedy dmg is only problematic in low level, so its perfectly balanced. Also, at high level you need to work to kill, and you will not kill anything without priming it first. Again, perfectly good. There is no excuse then to add more nerfs to it, or we would just use a weapon to 1 shot anything just like now.

I think you might be confusing what was proposed. Nobody is suggesting that Tragedys Status Multiplier hit be reduced. When we're talking about the initial hit, that's the set amount that Tragedy hits for when used.

To give an example, one of my loadouts has Ability Strength of 264%. This means that when Tragedy is triggered, its initial hit is 17,160, and then it multiplies all current Status by 7.92. We're talking about the initial hit of 17,160 here. Removing that is meaningless, which means it's not enough to warrant getting no Line of Sight back.

Somebody suggested taking away that initial damage as a trade-off a while back without really thinking it through, despite the Devs making it crystal clear that Range would need to be reduced, and for some weird reason it has spread like wildfire.

[Dante's Nerfs 2: Electric Boogaloo]

12 minutes ago, Zark_Manthra said:

Alright. I've given the changes a little over a week to give it a fair shake and chance. Unfortunately, the conclusion I have come to is the same opinion I had before the "fixes" to the original nerf: his nerf should be reverted the rest of the way. Yes the higher overguard regen offets the raw gain loss somewhat (still an unnecessary nerf, especially with the rage changes), and the pageflight functionality being back is nice (though why did it even get touched to begin with?), but the Tragedy nerf has got to go, seriously. Line of sight on Tragedy just feels terrible, regardless of how 'good' the line of sight check gets. Part of the appeal was the team synergy aspect of it, which is to say cashing in on the statuses the rest of the squad might be building up. Another thing was being able to cast dark verse on the move, and cash it in regardless of being in the same room you were casting in before or not. Tragedy no longer has "the largest radius in the game" if it can't go through walls, so you're no longer incentivized to max or go very high in range if you can't make use of that range either. If the issue is that it can kill early planet regular path enemies without building up statuses, just remove the built in damage of it and leave the damage mult of statuses alone, it really doesn't need to do damage by itself anyways, just please remove the line of sight check from it.

As an aside, since you did not in fact "listen to the community", as the large majority wanted a full revert and the most we got was a bit of a backpedal and a sidegrade, and nothing more, don't be surprised if people stop spending money as easily on the game for a while, I know I sure as hell won't for at least a year, maybe longer. Because that's what burning good will does, it makes us not as willing to buy the new shiny or want to support you as much. And if this is the treatment a decent frame gets so soon after launch I genuinely don't care what state Jade is in when she comes out, because you'll probably crush her too under the nerf hammer, and I'd rather not get burned again after investing in something I so truly enjoyed.

I agree except for one thing, removing the initial damage is not a big enough change to warrant a revert of the LoS system. As someone correctly pointed out in another thread before, in Endgame content that initial damage on Tragedy is inconsequential. As such, if its meaningless then that's not truly giving anything worthwhile up in order to get "no LoS" back. Dantes Range on Tragedy would 100% need to be the sacrifice in order to get "no LoS" back. But considering the majority of people on the forums have already stated they'd be happy with that trade-off, it's genuinely baffling why DE wants to quadruple-down on this horrendous new system.

Right now Jade is absolutely screwed. Could be an interesting frame but it barely matters anymore. With Dante now setting a new precedent for New Warframe releases that you can't trust what is shown, Jade might very well be the least sold frame when it releases.

[One of the few who isn't upset about Dante's nerfs.]

Fun Fact:

All of the proper complaints about Dante have been laser-focused specific, featuring either extremely detailed descriptions or, better yet, videos of exactly what the complaints are about. Proving without a reasonable doubt that when LoS was added to Tragedy, and keep in mind it was added, that it was not only unnecessary, but was now creating all new problems.

All of the backing for Dante and his changes have featured vague, non-specific examples. Theres barely ever even a tileset named unless the person backing the changes is questioned about their results, to which the reply is always "oh yeah I've tried it on tileset X", which is far too easy to type without proof being present.

There's a pretty big difference between the two but I'll let whoever reads this challenge themselves to find it. In the meantime Dante will make his way to the bottom of the usage list, with his only accomplishment being that he has set a new precedent for Newly Released Warframes; Don't trust any previews, don't trust the first few weeks of release, never buy a New Warframe even if it looks good as that can be tampered with.

[Disheartened after dante LOS changes?]

2 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

I would fit under this category. As ive been an open wallet to DE for a long time. 

I wont be buying jade and instead farm her. Which to me is unthinkable. 

The same will go for protea prime.

Im that mad over dantes bait and switch.

 

Then you wouldn't fit into that category then, because you have enough sense to know better due to the recent events.

[Light verse very small usage - changes/buffs]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Just because you have to press 22 (2x Light verse) to cast Triumph (4) doesn't mean that Light verse nor Triumph cannot exist on their own.

 

That's.......literally exactly what it means. Triumph cannot exist without 2x Lightverse, Wordwarden cannot exist without 1x Light Verse, Pageflight cannot exist without 1x Light Verse. It's a key component of all 3 as well as having its own function as a power.

I feel like something needs to be clarified here. If you're looking to completely change how Dante and his pages work, you've already lost. That's a battle that was already lost before you typed your first word. The mechanic is sound as long as the results match the time and effort put in, which is why everyone wants a revert of the Tragedy LoS changes.

But let's be clear, you're not getting the page mechanic removed, because that's not at all Dantes problem. If it's a mechanic you don't like, that's perfectly fine, Dante isn't the warframe for you then. There are plenty other Warframes to choose from.

[Light verse very small usage - changes/buffs]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

So, to rephrase "ability is useless - it's ok". Thanks for feedback.

 

Ignorance is not going to help you or your point. Your point was supposed to be that Light Verse doesn't do enough to warrant it being a power on its own, immediately the point was invalidated as you were advised on how 3 other powers that the Warframe possesses literally cannot exist without it. There's not really much I can do to help you with the fact that you forgot the power extends beyond itself and is a key element to using some of Dantes strongest powers.

Not every Warframe works the same, nor should they, otherwise they'd just be reskins of the same thing.

[Light verse very small usage - changes/buffs]

4 tries and still couldn't spell "Triumph" huh? It's probably best to focus on that before trying to tackle powers.

In the meantime, Dantes Light Verse is part of 3 powers, Triumph, Wordwarden & Pageflight. Whether you use all of them or not doesn't change that it has 4 functions, it's own and the 3 variations through Final Verse. Dante certainly has big issues right now. This isn't one of them.

[Disheartened after dante LOS changes?]

1 hour ago, Digital_Malz said:

Actually, the problem is not LoS on Dark Verse, but LoS on Tragedy that had ruined Dante.

They're not saying it is. They were saying that before the nerf, Dark Verse being limited by line of sight was enough of a limit without having to add it to Tragedy too.

But on Topic, yeah Jade is pretty much screwed at this point. The only folks who are going to buy her within the first two weeks of release are those with more money than sense. As long as this nerf remains it has now set a new precedent for new Warframes going forward. That being; You can't trust any previews or even the first few days of a Warframes release.

[Dante with functioning LoS feels Great]

5 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

If you try to interpret what I wrote as a comprehensive, in-depth study of Dante, you're going to come away with the wrong impression.  I'm not doing scientific studies, I'm just playing the game and giving feedback based on my subjective experience.

 

I've been playing on a wide variety of maps with plenty of height disparity; last night I did a bunch of Void Fissures that took me to many older maps, an Arbitration in the Grineer mining map with the raised catwalks, the full Archon Hunt, etc.

If you say your LoS is consistently failing, I believe you; it sounds like our experiences are simply night and day.  Which hopefully makes you curious: what could it possibly be that's happening in your game that isn't happening in mine, or vice versa?  Is it a setting of some kind?  Is it a sigil or a piece of armor that is causing LoS to fail hard?  Something else?

I won't pretend to know what it could be, but hopefully by providing DE with some videos of what you're experiencing they'll be able to figure out why you're not getting the same results as me and fix it.

To be fair, you did decide to add "functioning LOS feels great" to the title of your thread, and within 1 reply you then brought up how it could have bugs. Well....that's not functional. It's not fulfilling it's one function.

It either works as intended and as such has left Dante mediocre, or its not working as intended and has bugs, which doesn't leave Dante any better than option one. Within 20 mins of a hotfix going out on the Friday before last, lots of folks reported Dante blocking his own LoS, and no fix for this amongst other issues was present in last week's hotfix. Keep in mind, LoS was added to Dante, this was an addition, so every single time a new fix for LoS gets released, it's not hard to imagine why so many players feel like it's DE doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on a completely unnecessary addition. If they want to improve LoS for older frames that use it I'm fine with that, but LoS is essentially being forced onto Dante so he can be used as a Test for this new LoS system. Whether someone built him or paid for him, the fact remains that Live Server isn't a Test Server, and shouldn't be used as such. Neither should Dante be used as a Guinea pig for a system he never needed in the first place.

So all in all, I respectfully disagree, both with LoS actually being Functional, and with how he feels. I jumped on today and tried every single map with different height dimensions I could think of and didn't come anywhere close to what you're reporting. My Settings shouldn't even be in this conversation. Not one of them should affect how well any frame handles compared to other players, Settings should be a preference/comfort option and that's all.

[Dante with functioning LoS feels Great]

39 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I can only speak for myself, but for whatever reason I'm not experiencing that issue at all.  What I do experience regularly is casting Tragedy thinking I'm going to hit 3 enemies in front of me and seeing 5 distinct sets of damage numbers pop up, presumably because enemies that I didn't even realize were there actually had a few pixels exposed and the rendered LoS is tagging them.

But that's just my experience.  If you're having a different experience, that's valid, too.  Games are complex, so it makes sense that if there are bugs then some people will run into them and some people won't.  That being the case, I encourage you to do what you can to report every last specific detail about the problems you're experiencing: the objects, the tilesets, etc.

I'm afraid brushing it off as a "bug" isn't going to work here. I'm not saying there aren't bugs ofc, there's many, including Dante himself blocking his own Line of Sight which I cannot imagine was factored into your assessment of him. But whether we're talking about something being a bug or it being Line of Sight working as intended, they both lead to the same result; a mediocre Warframe.

I'd suggest expanding your tests past the new tilesets and trying it on older ones, like Grineer/Corpus ships or Defence Missions with different height levels. The results you're claiming to have seen could only be achieved in wide open areas like the Albrecht Labs, whereas I'm interested in Dante being useful everywhere.

[Dante with functioning LoS feels Great]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

I wanted to wait for all the nerfs and buffs to more or less resolve before digging into Dante, so it's only in the past few days that I've really spent much time with Dante.  From what I've played so far, he seems great.  With a simple 4-Forma build without any shards or fancy combos, he feels like one of the most comfortable and capable frames in the game.  His Overguard gives my entire team more support than they need, while Dark Verse and Tragedy destroy all but the hardiest enemies.  It almost feels like cheating to have a frame with such great survivability without needing to mod for shields, health, or even Adaptation.  So with just that, he's feeling great, and I know I've only scratched the surface on Noctua and his birds and books.

As for the LoS on his abilities, I've really got no complaints.  I think the biggest reason for that is the rendered LoS: his attacks hit everything I can see, and that's where the bulk of the feel comes from, at least for me.  So I have yet to run into a situation where it feels like an enemy that should have been hit wasn't; that's all I need.

I agree that DE made some blunders in this process, but we all make mistakes.  And what I care about more than the mistakes is DE openly taking owning those mistakes and doing what they can to apologize and course correct.  And after the storm has passed, it seems like Dante is in a great spot.  So thanks for the hard work and the humility.

You forgot to mention that the devs are going to continue to look into him and feedback on him over the next week or so. You have to mention that or else you won't get paid. Did they accidentally send you an early draft of what to say?

Improving something "bad" doesn't automatically make it "good". It often just increases it to mediocre instead. Dantes worst foes aren't grineer or corpus or sentients, they're small tables and pillars and corridors. And as long as that continues he'll remain mediocre. Reverting the LoS addition and reducing the Range of Tragedy is the only path to him being good again.

(And yes, I've played him since the hotfix before anyone suggests it condescendingly)

[Post Devshort Dante Discussion]

3 hours ago, RogueSyndiva said:

This exactly, they are just unwilling to admit they screwed up long story short.

Removing LoS entirely from Tragedy with or without a "Slight" reduction to its base range is THE best solution they can employ instead of the current mess we've got.

To be fair, it's not really a "with or without" kind of situation. The Devshort made it pretty clear that if LoS was removed then Range would have to be looked at. We've already covered why the suggestion of removing the base damage of Tragedy instead is pointless, and even if Power Cost was looked into, it likely wouldn't be enough of a trade-off.

Tried the newest Hotfix there last night to try to be as fair as possible. It's definitely an improvement on what we had the last few days, but multiple times enemies beside me within 5-10m weren't getting hit. That's not just counting random enemies either, on a few different maps I made sure that Dark Verse hit them first and Tragedy still somehow missed. They can spend the next few months tinkering until they get this right, or just return it to what was working from day 1 with Ranged adjustments. I know what I'd prefer.

[Post Devshort Dante Discussion]

5 hours ago, HermlT said:

the realistic scenario of nerfing range but returning LoS would be something like 12-15m, as with the extreme dmg potential it has, you can still get a 40m range build and absolutely wreck everything. even 25m is ridiculously big for an ability with both this base dmg and dmg potential. maim has an 18m range and has 150 base dmg and needs to charge up on many enemies to reach its room nuke capabilities, and is significantly weaker without an external armor strip. tragedy has 6500 base dmg and multiplies DoTs by 3x at base, which dante can dish out abundently(and have 1250x2 base slash dmg). it bypasses armor effectively on slash procs popping. it is unreasonable that this would have such a big range for such a strong ability without restrictions, especially for a frame that does much more than just dmg.

while LoS is annoying it still allows you active plays of bullet-jumping high and nuking the room via sight. so basically a bit more situational, but with a higher skill ceiling and promotes situational awareness.

although i am on the power creep is an issue side of things, i think most people who are content with the nerf wouldn't be gravitating towards the forums, so its hard to know the general sentiment just from the forums reaction alone.

To be honest, I had already considered that the Range might be reduced as much as 15m. But considering max strength on Dante turns 30m into 70-80m, it being brought down to 15m sounds about right in order to get rid of Line of Sight. As I said in a previous post, I don't want another Saryn, wrecking missions for everyone else. Dante should be able to nuke clusters of groups, not entire rooms.

As for the whole "bullet jump into the air" thing, although inventive, is a plaster. For a problem that still remains. It means Dante now has one, and only one, option of how to play him. That shouldn't be the goal.

Unfortunately the latest hotfix just doubled down on the Line of Sight issue. Though to be fair that was already scheduled in. Hopefully the idea of LoS being replaced with Reduced Range is still on the table, because it seems to be the more popular option.

[Post Devshort Dante Discussion]

1 hour ago, Bizzo50 said:

It's easy, cut range to 25 base (20 min) and revert everything else.

This pretty much seems to be the majority of people's hopes, that something like this would be implemented. Considering on the Devshort they pretty much confirmed that it either needed to be LoS or reduced Range, reduced Range definitely seems to be the preferred option. Theres no point in having it have a range of 70-80m if a desk in the room is going to stop it from hitting.

[Post Devshort Dante Discussion]

4 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

People, you all should stop suggesting range nerf. It looks like you still don't understand how DE will tweak that range. They will probably gut the range and then will be written into stone because "the community asked".

DE want low level balance, so we remove the base dmg, that does nothing at high level. Its the best compromise and its risk free. DE could put 100 or 0 dmg, that we wouldn't notice anything anyways.

You know they can read, right? Not only was this suggestion already covered, but you just explained exactly why that wouldn't be a reasonable trade-off, which means that even if there was a snowballs chance in hell that they didn't know, they do now.