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About Krion112

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  1. Who is your favorite Faction to fight?

    While I like fighting all the factions, the Corpus are my favorite to fight, as well as my favorite to fight alongside. If we had more enemy behavior manipulating weapons and Warframes, I would probably say fighting the Infestation is my favorite, but with Nyx as the only manipulator, it means there's not really many behavioral counters to the Infestation's synergy. But I do like combating the Corpus; they feel solid, a complex system that must be taken apart, only made easier by working with teammates. They encourage team play, and they discourage mindless steamrolling. Makes them fun for me. For least favorite, I really don't like fighting Grineer. They scatter annoyingly, but their game-design and lore design suggests they should be charging me down. I think they'd be funner if they were more aggressive, like if I could lure them into traps and stuff. But, like I said, I do like fighting all of them, it's just I think the Grineer are the least interesting.
  2. New Warframe Idea (The Passive Frame)

    Technically, that was hardly English, perhaps you should edit that to make sense?
  3. New Warframe Idea (The Passive Frame)

    A universal Passive Warframe already exists: Chroma In fact, most of your abilities are effects Chroma already has, just out of order, or not necessarily shared with Allies.
  4. Dicey Rebalance Idea: Energy

    And, basically you felt the reason to post that why? If you're going to just disregard what I say, with your implacable attitude and lack of respect, you may as well not have responded at all.
  5. Dicey Rebalance Idea: Energy

    Well, obviously Warframe and Quake would not have the same orthogonal aspects, but they're both orthogonal games. I mean, do Quake and Halo play the same? No, but they both adhere to orthogonal design, they just have different systems to carry it out. Some examples of non-PvP centric orthogonal design would be Half-Life, Payday, Helldivers, Alien Swarm, and Left 4 Dead. However, I want to point out the PvE elements of those PvP focused games, such as Halo, Doom, and Quake, are just as equally built orthogonal design, so I don't get your point on that front. It seems like your trying to use differences between other orthogonal games and Warframe to suggest Warframe is not an orthogonal game, despite the fact that they are not different in regards to how base balance, rules, nuance, and other such orthogonal behaviors are handled. I mean, let's compare: What Warframe has in common with Orthogonal Design Games: Behavioral Nuance that dictates Role systems (Each faction, syndicate, and focus is dedicated to one the 5 orthogonal roles, weapons seem to be categorized in Power, Flexibility, and Precision categories, often titled 'Shotgun-Pistol-Sniper' by other games of orthogonal balance, each Warframe also adheres to an orthogonal role on their own) Element Distinction, defined by a role, which makes a particular element distinct compared to others (ie, One gun is not, by default, objectively better than another, with the exception of Variants; Each planet provides a unique set of resources; weapons and Warframes of certain roles naturally perform better in certain circumstances, which is broken because of linear systems that are present) Resources utilized as a barrier to acquisition, rather than a means to improve equipment (ie, collecting resources is more like gathering ammo in arena shooters or resources in RTS games, in that you use them for acquisition and unlocking rather than for upgrading; likewise, resources in Warframe are orthogonal, as there is no objective best resource as no resource is the result of the stats of a weapon or Warframe) Primary progression unlocks more options, rather than unlocking more power (ie, Mastery Rank being used to gate weapons, weapon and Warframe rank determining the amount of mod capacity, each Focus node adds a new perk to the Focus Ability, etc) Overarching goal seems to be the acquisition and mastery over each weapon, Warframe, and planet. What Warframe has in common with Linear Design Games: Statistics scaling based upon a numerical attribute (ie, Units gaining more Health, Armor, Damage, or other such statistics based upon a level) Statistics scaling based upon applied upgrades, with objective advantages over one another (ie, mandatory mods, such as Serration and Split Chamber; Riven Mods) And what influences you see are irrelevant; I said Warframe was an RPG-lite, which means it's using RPG-like mechanics to amplify a non-RPG. If you hadn't noticed, this is kind of happening to a lot of games, like Call of Duty, Battlefield, 343's Halo games, Doom (2016), etc. Warframe is in the genre with Payday and Helldivers, both of which are Orthogonal, non-RPGs that use RPG-like mechanics to compliment their progression; It's not in the genre of Borderlands and Diablo. A post worth reading for sure; good luck.
  6. Dicey Rebalance Idea: Energy

    Warframe is closer to those games, than it is to WoW, Diablo, or Mass Effect, hence why I referenced them. It's inconsequential whether you recognize that or not. If you have a sniper that doesn't deal enough damage, the headshot mechanic is worthless. And if it works at any scale, then you have the reverse issue of Orthogonal balance overshadowing linear scaling, which is still making those mechanics incompatible. And, if you're achieving the headshot kill easily and efficiently without a precision weapon, then you're forgoing Orthogonal balance and saying anything can be viable against anything, which is defeating the purpose of orthogonal balance. So, no, absolutely you cannot have both, and have both actually be satisfactory. First, there's already a scaling cap, so regardless of linear or orthogonal scale, you still end up at a stagnant point, which means there is a point where either we stop scaling, the enemy stops scaling, or both, so literally you just said there's no reason to play the game, not even right now because there is a point where it stops scaling anyway, . Second, orthogonal games can see incredible longevity just like RPGs, without scaling. I mean, the Quake community I'm pretty sure is still alive, still making mods, still making maps, still finding new things to do with old ideas. I mean, I'm more likely to load up Half-Life and play through that again than I am to loading up and playing through Diablo. Ah, the common shallow approach to arguing. Well, right back at you: you just want DE to build on the flawed, linear design that has plagued Warframe for far too long because you like linear scaling games, probably because you, based upon your labeling of orthogonal mechanics, don't appreciate complex tasks, which there is no shame in, but isn't reflective of what Warframe not only used to be, but what it's supposed to be. It's not a replacement for the game, because it's literally the core of the game. Everything in the game reflects Orthogonal balance, with the only exception being the way in which we and our enemies scale. You severely overestimate the importance of linear scaling in Warframe, because it's literally just tacked on. Like, as though during the conceptual stage of Warframe, DE saw other games with linear scaling progression, and just thought to add it in because... well, arbitrary reasons. 'It works for them, it'll work for us' mentality. Also, you're making a lot of assumptions deliberately to a negative effect because you disagree with me; mods would not become worthless, they'd just be balanced for an orthogonal design. Instead of just making a weapon better, you could aim to make it either more flexible or more specialized. They'd still be just as worthwhile as they are now, there just wouldn't be any universally mandatory mods. And, by the elimination of Scaling I mean the eliminating of Linear Scaling; Orthogonal games still have progression, just not increasing in power, rather increasing in options. That's incorrect; No games succeed on the premise of fun, they succeed on the premise of satisfaction, which the goal of satisfaction could be to present an experience that is fun, but Warframe doesn't wholly succeed on the concept of fun. Not at all asking for Warframe to go the direction of arena shooters, it's just that Warframe shares more in common with that style of balance and design (ie, Orthogonal Unit Differentiation) than it does the Linear design of a true RPG game. There are tons of game genres that utilize Orthogonal progression. I also didn't say anything about story progression, which of course is still present orthogonal design, but okay. Not really all that off-topic, actually. All systems in the game are interconnected, and those that aren't go vastly ignored (looking at you, Archwing, Lunaro, and Conclave). If you change one thing, it will affect everything else. We've merely explored some of the surrounding systems involved with an Energy Economy Rework, because of course the way the players and enemies scale is a defining factor in how such a system should be set up. I suppose, in the end, regardless of either of our views on the game, it's only ever going to be shaped by DE. They're going to do what they want, and they're going to reap all the consequences, be it positive or negative. I'm fine with leaving the conversation there. Regardless of if it can be done all at once, it should at least be reworked in concept all at once. The way all these systems are intertwined is if you wanted to change any of it and keep it cohesive you'd have to change all of it. We have total freedom to do so, so you could always lay out a thread attempting to rework these core issues all at once, we don't have to just focus on one task at a time.
  7. Dicey Rebalance Idea: Energy

    Well, that was some of the most self-defeating rabble I've ever read. First of all, no, a game like Warframe does not rely upon scaling. In fact, I'd say the scaling mechanics in Warframe is probably a great margin of what's actually wrong with Warframe. Tell me; what is the scaling in an Arena Shooter, like Quake or Team Fortress? What is the scaling in a Real-Time Strategy game, like Starcraft or Command & Conquer? Oh, that's right, they don't have scaling, because if they did, the combat would be one sided, every single time. And don't tell me any such nonsense of Warframe being an MMORPG, because just straight up it's not. It's a third person action game with shared-world and RPG-lite mechanics. At its heart, Warframe is a game with Orthogonal Unit Differentiation, which means it has absolutely no room for scaling mechanics. It has so much more in common with a game like Left 4 Dead than it does a game like World of Warcraft, or even a non-mmo RPG like Mass Effect. Warframe is nothing but gun-play, it doesn't have any in depth looting mechanics to suggest it's focused on looting elements. In fact, all the resources and mods in the game only serve to slow us down because it's free to play, and DE expects such walls to block progress in order to make paid micro-transactions more appealing. Also, literally, by definition, having linear progression of power is incompatible with having diversity. Progression in a Linear scaling game is like a vector; it goes in one direction, and it has a magnitude. I mean, that's why such a great deal of games with linear scaling are fantasy games; melee weapons have no nuance compared to guns, which can have variations of accuracy, projectile speed, magazine sizes, and other such behaviors, where as a melee weapon is always swing and strike. So, no, you can't have both of those ideas. The game can commit to either having diversity of mechanics, or straight up power increases, because by having both, the mechanics become disjointed, and neither party is wholly satisfied. The only people satisfied there are truly the only people who wouldn't care either way. That's not a very logical statement, because I outright said remove linear scaling altogether, which means we wouldn't have it either. Removing linear scaling altogether, or removing diversity altogether, are the only true options that get anything done. Again, Warframe's just straight up not an RPG. It doesn't play like an RPG, it doesn't look like an RPG, and sure it has some RPG elements, but likewise some of those RPG elements it inherits have absolutely no place in its design and hold the whole game back. In fact, I believe it's this false title of calling Warframe an MMORPG that has confused DE into even making mistakes like this. Warframe should not be modeled on Diablo, Borderlands, or any other game in that genre, because it's not the genre that Warframe adheres to. This is why the end goal is not to overcome stronger enemies and acquire loot, the end goal is mastery. That's why the ranking system in the game is called 'Mastery'; they expected you to 'master' each piece of equipment, by learning its strengths and weaknesses, and knowing where to apply them. Unfortunately, that design got warped along the way, and now we have this monstrosity of an issue between the player versus environment balance, which is precisely why threads like this keep popping up, and why they will forever pop up until DE actually does something about it. It's not a replacement, it's what's supposed to be there. Counter-play is supposed to be in place of where we have linear scaling mechanics now. And, you truly can't have both, because as I said, they overshadow each other and are just fundamentally incompatible game-design. By definition, in an Orthogonal game, not every enemy is defeated in the ways the Nox and Nullifier are. In fact, the Nox and Nullifier are only so complex in their counter-play because of the role slots they occupy. Most enemies would perform almost the same way they do now, they just wouldn't scale in such an arbitrary fashion. It'd be like the scaling for a Lancer would be more numbers, but a Bombard would scale by gaining additional area of effect attacks, like having a body-mounted mortar or something. It's not, especially not at its heart, a looter game. Looter mechanics are the tacked on element, not Warframe's shooting and combat mechanics. Warframe is more like Left 4 Dead than it is Diablo. It only has looting mechanics to stagger progression so that we're encouraged to pay for micro-transactions to skip those acquisition barriers, because the ultimate goal is to use all the equipment and know how to apply each piece of equipment. Unfortunately, some linear elements carried over from actual RPG games found their way in, and they have warped that original prospect.
  8. This is what I'd advocate for. It needs to be distinct whether or not something is in the opposite plane as yourself. It's too hard to quickly and effectively make these determinations, especially in the heat of battle, when it really should be. Also, I'd say the crowd-control on Banish should ONLY affect enemies or allies, and not catch both, like if you target an enemy, it will only catch enemies. If you target an ally, it will only catch allies. If you're not quite aiming at something, I think it should prioritize enemies. This way I can stop accidentally irritating my allies, who then go on a giant ragefest calling me a troll, when I had no intention of banishing them.
  9. I like the prospect of combining Focus and Channeling; not sure about the specific details, but it sounds like a solid concept. A Suggestion: Perhaps the Focus could also be channeled into your current Warframe? Like, tapping whatever key would represent channeling would toggle channeling on your currently wielded weapon, but holding it would toggle it on your Warframe. This immense buff provided could work in tandem, perhaps, with an energy economy and ability effectiveness rework to successfully scale back the viability of spamming powers, while maintaining a great deal of strength. Either way, an interesting proposal.
  10. Dicey Rebalance Idea: Energy

    You could straight up remove all the over-complicated math by just removing scaling from enemies, and then rebalancing them to become even more specialized in their role the higher their rank, making them harder to beat when not using their direct weaknesses. And without this linear scaling, which is a wholly needless thing in a game like Warframe, everything else could be more focused upon being more meaningful, with weapon and Warframe traits having reinforced, distinct advantages and disadvantages which the game could enforce. Sure, removing scaling would also require changes on our end, like in weapon and mod stats, but it does result in a more satisfactory experience.
  11. Can someone PLEASE direct me to LORE..........

    Here's a summary of Warframe's backstory I posted in response to another request for Lore elaboration; I hope it helps:
  12. A Suggestion for the Convectrix

    Since I obtained the Convectrix, some long time ago, I've been trying to make it work in any way conceivable, and I just can't. It just simply does not do the job it should be accomplishing. It's a beam shotgun, a weapon of retribution, the end of the fight, and yet I find myself stuck in a fight more than anything with this weapon. And as much as I know Corpus weapons are oriented to the defense of their wielders, this weapon does not encourage Defense as much as it discourages doing anything else. It doesn't do any defensive effects, it doesn't deal damage or cause status at any reasonable rate, it drains ammo like crazy, and the 'fanning' ability is just absolutely worthless and counter-intuitive, as in the thick of it, trying to use the fanning ability, while dodging around and using abilities or even trying to hold your ground, just doesn't create any satisfactory effect, even on crowds of incapacitated enemies. But, I've come with a set of suggestions to boost this weapon up: No Fanning Control - The Convectrix would automatically converge the beams after hitting the trigger; it would no longer be a true continuous weapon, as you would merely hit the trigger, and the weapon would do the rest. Once converged, the beams would deactivate and return to the starting position. For visual representation, the Thermal Lance weapon of the Colossus from Starcraft 2 would probably be an accurate depiction of how this would function. If an enemy is struck by the converged beams, they could be inflicted with Shock status. Increased Fanning Speed - Likewise, the twin beams would converge faster, to make a quick and concise attack, as is the case with shotguns to be quick to end a fight. No Continuous Ammo Consumption - Without the Continuous trigger, each trigger pull would only consume 1 ammo. This of course would mean that the weapon should have its magazine size reduced, probably to somewhere between 10 & 20, but ultimately each use of the weapon would only cost 1 ammo. Increased Base Damage - It's a shotgun; it's supposed to quickly and efficiently put down weaker enemies, which should include things like Lancers, Crewmen, and Moas, but at present it just lightly brushes up against them. I should expect shotgun-levels of crowd control on a weapon considered apart of the Shotgun category, however, given its defensive nature, I'm not asking for a big buff in this regard; I expect that in the mid-realm of the game, it would kill light units in 2 or 3 passes, possibly only in 1 pass if the enemy is close enough and the correct damage types are used. Stagger Effect - As a Defensive Trait, this weapon should stagger all enemies struck by the beam as it makes its convergence, possibly only staggering enemies at a certain distance away. As a defensive fight ender, this effect would not only slow the advance of an approaching crowd of baddies, but also prevent any escapes, as long as you have the firepower to then deal with the staggered opponents. Secondary Fanning - Optionally, the controlled fanning function can be recycled into the secondary trigger, fanning back and forth quickly, but also draining ammo at an equally fast pace. This would make for a faster, more efficient crowd-control weapon, designed to quickly put an end to any enemy offensive, and properly reward holding its ground. It wouldn't be able to out-pace the damage of similar power weapons, but it would be able to at least be comparable to them in effect. I very much want this weapon to be satisfactory, but right now, regardless of whether or not my suggestions are in accordance with Warframe's game design, the Convectrix is incredibly inefficient, and should see a balance pass in the future.
  13. Warframe Lore. I need to know!

    Glad to be of service! On the point of plot disillusion, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you intend to stick around Warframe for awhile, every time we get more lore reveals, it makes the base story a little more recognizable. When I started, what the Tenno were, what the Sentient were, and pretty much most of the stuff we know about the Orokin wasn't established. Basically, the only known things were that the Orokin had a war with the Sentient, and they had created the Warframes and used the Tenno to fight the Sentient, and that when the war concluded, the Tenno killed the Orokin. There were no origin stories to the Grineer, Corpus, or Infestation, and for a long time people thought the Tenno were physically within the Warframe. But, now we know all that other stuff, so it's just a matter of time.
  14. Warframe Lore. I need to know!

    It should be noted that many holes in the plot leave much to be inferred, but this is pretty much a clean summary of how I've viewed the Warframe backstory (buckle up, it's a long one): The Orokin Somehow, an interplanetary empire is created, and they rule over feudal colonies across the Solar System. They are comprised of aristocratic families, each called a 'Corpus'. They are masters of technology, and incredible genetic engineers. They are lead by the Seven, who are the highest Executors of the Orokin Empire, possibly even having the titles of 'Emperors'. Ballas is possibly a member of the Seven. The Orokin, using genetic engineering, create multiple races of humans specialized in certain tasks. The technical and scientific caste are the Archimedeans, who are the creators and overseers of advanced technological development and genetic engineering. Their military is comprised of the Dax, whom are succeeded only by Teshin. They also engineered the Grineer as labor forces, acting as miners and builders. Finally, Lorists acted as healers, and are inferred to be what the Infestation creates Ancients from. To keep their servant races loyal, the Orokin consume Kuva, a metallic red oil, which prevent their sycophants from disobeying or harming them. At some point, they either create or discover a parallel realm called the Void, which they use as the basis for their faster-than-light transport, the Solar Rails. For an unexplained reason, the Orokin are desperate to leave the Solar System, and they set about devising strategies for establishing interstellar travel. A rejected strategy is the 'Crewman Project', which is ended upon the execution of the Archimedean in charge of the project. Just after, another Archimedean proposes the use of self-replicating, adapting machines that would be able to survive the challenges of deep space, while constructing a long-range Solar Rail to a targeted Solar System, known only as 'Tau'. When the Executors are about to reject this plan, the Archimedean convinces them that it will not pose a threat, for it has been created with a weakness to the Void, meaning once the Solar Rail is complete, it will not be able to return. The plan is shortly thereafter accepted. The Zariman This Interstellar Rail is finished, and colony ships are assembled at the Outer Terminus near Pluto to make the jump. While on its way to Outer Terminus, however, a colony ship, titled the 'Zariman 10-0', vanished while in transit, and was missing for months. Upon its rediscovery, all crew were missing, and only the children were found on board. During the time it was gone, the Void had tainted the minds of the adults, turning them into savages, and it warped the Zariman children, giving them supernatural abilities. When rescued, they had apparently burned one of the officers in charge of the Zariman's recovery. The Zariman victims are studied in detail on Earth's Moon, Lua. Transference An Archimedean by the name of Margulis sets to work, trying to heal or at least help the Zariman victims, called the 'Tenno' based upon the numerical title (10-0). In doing so, she ends up being severely wounded, losing her vision and possibly other senses. Ballas urges her to stop, calling the Tenno 'Devils'. The Orokin grow afraid, and push for Margulis to end her research. In her defiance, she is executed. However, her work continues on, possibly seen through by Ballas. Eventually they create 'Transference', which allows a person to occupy and essentially become another object or person. This somehow proves positive, as using Transference allows the Tenno to reside in a trance-like sleep, which keeps their powers in check. The Orokin later corrupt this technology, and use it to maintain their continuity; they begin abducting children from the feudal colonies, and use Transference to transfer their 'souls' into these younger bodies, and maintain the loyalty of their empire by consuming Kuva, all at locations called 'Yuvan Theaters'. The Sentient Meanwhile, colonization efforts have been carried out in the 'Tau' System. An indeterminate amount of time follows, and the machines once used to build the interstellar rail rebel, lashing out and assaulting the Orokin; they are given the title of 'Sentient'. No explicit motive has been provided as to why, however Hunhow mentioned something to the effect that the Sentient were being used as weapons by the Orokin, likely to keep the new colonies in line. The Sentient proved impossible to defeat, as they could out-adapt the Orokin weaponry, and any advanced technologies, weapons, or robotics utilized by the Orokin were subjugated by the Sentient, and used against them; The very technology that gave the Orokin all their power became their downfall. With most of the Orokin military crushed in 'Tau', the Sentient send expendable units along the Interstellar Rail, back to the Origin system, to end the Orokin once and for all. The Technocyte The Orokin scramble for a defense; some Towers are even suicidally moved into the Void, in the hopes of escaping the Sentient. A technology devised to battle the Sentient is the Technocyte, a techno-organic nano-virus. It is capable of infecting an individual, reshaping them and rebuilding them to fit a design and purpose. It is inferred that the Orokin took to infesting their own populations into armies that could fight the Sentient. It backfires when it proves ineffective against them. The Sentient then engulf the Earth using the Infestation, causing the Great Plague. However, Archimedeans elsewhere still wrangle with the virus, and eventually they devise a way to use those infected with the disease in combination with the power of the Tenno. These become the Warframes; techno-organic, humanoid war machines, piloted by the Tenno via Transference, focusing their void energy like a lens to produce extremely destructive powers. This Void presence also prevents seizure from Sentient subversion, and allows the Tenno and Warframes to act as an effective weapon against the Sentient. Several Archimedeans are tasked with developing Warframes for combat, under the advisement of Ballas, who also persuades the Seven to make use of these Warframes as tools to defeat their enemies, however he also advises them that they are dangerous and may eventually turn on them. The Old War The Tenno do battle against the Sentient all across the Origin System, using their Warframes to conjure devastating and overwhelming powers that the Sentient cannot resist. Earth is reclaimed by the Tenno, who eradicate the Infestation presence. The Grineer are re-purposed as a zero-tech army, after a simple miner with a shovel managed to kill a Sentient fragment. In the exchange of fire, much of the Orokin's history is destroyed or assimilated by the Sentient, however the Tenno appear to be winning the war. The Sentient Destroyer of Worlds, Hunhow, devises a plan; he will use his daughter, Natah, to seize command over the Tenno, and create the illusion of the Tenno winning the Old War by sacrificing himself. Natah travels to Origin, losing her own ability to reproduce, but she is somehow successful in assuming control over the Tenno, becoming the Lotus. She guides them into beating back the Sentient forces, and they secure the Origin system. The Tenno stop the tide of Sentient reinforcements from Tau, and the counter-attack begins; they devise to travel to the other side of the Interstellar Rail at Outer Terminus to seal it off. They, along with the Orokin's Zero-Tech army, travel to Tau, where they are presumed to have been successful in disabling that side of the rail, possibly leaving many behind to finish the job so that the majority could return. Hunhow follows them or is brought back to Origin, but is presumed dead. The Fall of the Empire The Orokin celebrate the Tenno's return at Outer Terminus, however it proves hollow; the Tenno slaughter the last remnants of the Orokin hierarchy, likely under the command of Lotus. The Empire devolves into chaos; the Infestation runs rampant, the Grineer rise up, and the last vestiges of the Orokin fight to survive. Hunhow is buried in a tomb on Uranus, although he remains alive. Defiant of her father's orders, the Lotus orders the Tenno to enter their Warframes into stasis, instead of destroying them, due to her gained affinity for them. To further protect them, she moves Lua, where the Tenno reside, into the Void, where they are left to sleep in the second dream. The Grineer pillage the system, and eventually form their empire, under the rule of their queens. The Corpus are eventually formed by the successors of the Orokin, who create self-defense weapons to be sold to the feudal colonies to defend themselves against the Grineer. These factions battle for a long time over control of the system, pillaging old Orokin and Sentient technologies in the attempt to get an edge on each other. This war eventually leads up to the present day, with the Tenno reawakening and taking part in this conflict under the command of the Lotus. And that's just the backstory, however this is all just my perspective on the overarching story. Given that not a whole lot has been precisely elaborated in greater detail, some of these parts can be moved around a bit to form a slightly different narrative. For example, you could instead suggest that the Technocyte predates the Orokin, and that it is a plague that threatens to destroy their empire, which is why they wanted to go to Tau, and the Infestation was just the Orokin attempt to weaponize the Technocyte against the Sentient, and just about everything else falls in line the same way. In any case, take all that with a grain of salt. (or sugar, so as to avoid being salty).
  15. Which came first?? - The age old question

    The Egg; Dinosaurs, Birds, Reptiles, and the like were all laying Eggs long before the Kubrow was even engineered by the Orokin.