[What Led To The Username You Have Now?]

I was heavily into marching band when I was in high school(10 years ago).  I played trumpet in pretty much all of my free time besides what I used when playing NavyFIELD back in the day.  My brother put me on the spot for the account name when making a new account, and all I could think of was my Bach Stradivarius and the word Avatar on the screen, so I threw the two together.  I've been using it ever since, and it never seems to be taken, so that's a plus.

[WTS Top Tier Lanka, Stradavar Mods]

800p for the braton mod

gotta say, rather amusing bidwar

[The second of my many issues with melee. The first has a fix, its just only in lunaro..]

A game that I really feel Warframe could learn from in respects to Melee is Blade Symphony.  The combos are simple yet elegant, while allowing you to chain them nearly as you please.  For those that aren't familiar with Blade Symphony, your character has 4 "modes" of attack.

Heavy Attacks - Slow but powerful strikes that overpower your opponent.

Medium Attacks - A middle ground attack with minimal range, but decently powerful strikes.  These usually catch most players off guard due to their timings being very different from Heavy and Light Attacks.

Light Attacks - Fast Attacks that do less damage, but are generally used to stagger your opponent.

Air Attacks - Aerial swipes that allow for quick counterplay and gap-closing.

 

In Blade Symphony, there are unique characters that have specific movesets.  Weapons are also very unique in that their damage and utility are heavily affected by the character's movesets that use them. The thing that makes Blade Symphony so interesting though is its combo system.  If you were to compare it to Warframe, imagine being in a specific combo for a stance, and having the ability to switch to a different combo while in the middle of another.  Blade Symphony capitalizes on players chaining these combos in clever ways to outplay their opponent.

Obviously a system as in-depth as this would be both difficult and unreasonable to implement here, but I think there is something to be learned from in Blade Symphony's combo system.  Rather than having long combos that require a considerable amount of effort and thought to pull off successfully, we could make use of short and simple combo "pieces" that contain elements of damage and utility that could be smoothly chained to give players a greater sense of freedom and importance from the combo system.

This, and a huge finisher attack overhaul where you can chain finishers on enemies that are close to one another could bring Melee to a whole new level of gameplay.  Being caught in a finisher animation to kill Bob while Fred, Bill, and Joe watch their friend be brutally slaughtered is rather annoying, and shows the clunkyness of the finisher system.

[Buffing the Stradavar]

I agree wholeheartedly that I need a buff.  In all seriousness, giving different firemodes notable benefits, if balanced correctly, can really make for a unique weapon with character.

[I'm Flattered DE]

Already in off topic?  Bah, you mods are no fun >:|

[I'm Flattered DE]

I really am, but I'm afraid you misspelled my name.

Tenno Reinforcements - Stradavar

Thank you for the kind gesture though.  I truly appreciate it.

[Your biggest regrets in this game?]

4 minutes ago, MadHatHacker said:

Huh, another one of these.

Well, shortly after the informant event, I was trading with someone who offered me a Primed Chamber for 75p. I laughed aloud and politely declined what was then considered to be a fairly worthless mod. 

It's haunted my dreams ever since.

 

Ouch....... That hurts my soul.

[Your biggest regrets in this game?]

4 hours ago, TheHun7er said:

I didn't even try to be funny, just speaking the truth... See your ego got somehow hurt, no wonder since this community is so toxic. Whatever.

Trying to drag my ego into this now?  Amusing, but hardly close.  The fact of the matter is that your comment is a parrot from a thread that gets created at least 3 times a week in the forums.  You, just like plenty of other individuals, blame Draco for all of the world's problems in this game.  Your input gives us absolutely NO insight in this thread as to an ACTUAL regret that you have involving your own actions.  Instead, you push some kind of irrelevant blame towards others, than admitting that you are capable of making some kind of mistake.  The only egotistical act here is what you've committed to in this thread.

And don't even get my started on trying to quantitatively evaluate the level of intelligence of an individual by means of a percentile.  That is the most erroneous action you could ever take when trying to find a basis to compare levels of intelligence.  Even the IQ system isn't all that accurate in terms of determining the ability of an individual to create thoughtful and meaningful input and actions.  So basically, you came here wanting to pat yourself on the back by belittling the existence of others because of a mission in a video-game where people farm for easy exp.  Your life is beyond pathetic if you find any real value in doing so.

[Your biggest regrets in this game?]

12 hours ago, TheHun7er said:

Finding out what's that Draco thing... Never play it again, people there have a really low percent of intelligence.

God you're so funny.  You could, I don't know, make a career out of it.  Maybe elsewhere though.

 

I regret not being able to get the Founder's pack.  I started playing very shortly after it ended.  Now they're basically the only things I lack, other than Lato and Braton Vandal.

[Excalibur Level Reworks ?]

21 hours ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

I'd rather they just not not be capable of going through walls as much as they are. In the very least, if they do go through walls, they should have a much larger limit on their range. I mean, when you have Valkyr's Ult at a farther range and can just spam it behind cover to kill everything it's just, well, lame, and rather unfun for anyone not using EB, as everything's dead by the time you get to the next room.

Really what Exalted Blade needs is a reduction in the "amount" of energy waves, with an increase in size and variety that would be based on his combos.  His combos should exist for a reason, but currently there isn't anything that trumps his spam combo and slide attack in terms of dps and utility.

Simple things like combos for:

1. "faster waves" that are weaker, but are fired off in quick succession would be useful for aerial targets
2. "slower waves" that hit harder and are much wider, but are less common in the combo.  Possible expanding of the combo by having "lashes" in the combo that expands the sword's range to make up for the lack of dps in between waves.
3. Attacks that can be used in a more linear fashion (eg a "thrusting" attack that is very snappy and powerful)
4. Attacks that clear areas in a small AoE (much like a ground-slam, but could incorporate waves with limited range.)
5. Attacks that focus on staggering enemies or keeping them out of melee range

The list could go on forever to give more meaning to his combos.

In terms of this topic in general.  Yes OP, Excalibur is very strong.  He scales relatively well.  He can go for a long time killing enemies.  The thing is, once he reaches level 100 enemies, he begins to fall off.  He loses out on damage because he simply doesn't have the ability to strip armor and shields from enemies.  His EB Blind combo does huge amounts of damage, but all it is is just a big number.  Enemies scale infinitely in Warframe, so solid numbers will always be trumped by percentages in late-game. This is where Mag will shine for certain, as her SP can now work on both Corpus and Grineer.  If it is going to be even a fraction of how strong it currently is, then Mag will still be nuking enemies to kingdom come.  Volt's effectiveness on the other-hand will only be seen as we begin to see what kind of damage his ult will be doing lategame.  Even still, if what we saw from the Devstream holds true, and there seems to be no limit to how long an enemy is affected by his Ult, then that's already a win.  Volt could run around a map with no power strength spamming ult on an exterminate, sit at extraction, and go afk to get some tea until all of the enemies just slowly shock themselves to death.

[Volt discussion: Emperor Palpatine mode]

Just now, -Mr.Meeseeks- said:

From what I've seen, i'm really not impressed. He seems like decent CC, but still terrible damage. So I guess yeah, utility is going to be pretty much his only use.

His damage in his rework isn't going to be by any means bursty.  The thing that really shines in his new ult is that you could build him with literally no power strength and just press 4.  It will take a long time, but enemies will eventually die, no matter their level.

[Volt discussion: Emperor Palpatine mode]

5 minutes ago, Phyrak said:

The cycle idea is to give freedom to both parties

 

Those who want the original volt 1 shock 

As for electrocute: said toggle would allow for the above mode to be used as need be

 

That or have one button with two modes inbuilt

Tap for as is - hold to go palpatine mode

 

The idea is to more or less keep freedom and allow both sides to play volt as they wish and in turn increase his scalability as shock is one of the worst scaling elements in terms of damage

What I was getting at was exactly what you mentioned for your second idea, but I really don't understand how this would "diminish" freedom to have a button that would both be tapped and held for different effects. A toggle system involving one key is generally clunky by design, but is intended to allow for more content to be bound to a single key.  If we only have 2 options for a single ability, then a toggle isn't entirely efficient.  I find myself very often looking down away from the game to find out what arrow I am on while playing Ivara.  In fact, I'm so weary of the toggle function, that I usually just switch it straight back to stealth after using something else, as that is the arrow that I use most.

A tap for a single cast, and hold for continuous cast is the best option that DE could offer as a way to revamp some of these elemental frames that also act as buffers in certain team comps.  Really in fact, this could be heavily expanded upon if they wanted to.

- Frost could slowly build Ice Walls that would be based on duration if casting on the ground/walls/enemies.
- Saryn could create a giant puddle that automatically afflicts the enemy with Viral/Toxin Procs.
- Ember could create a trail of napalm that ignites enemies that pass through it.
- Volt could charge objects or surfaces in the environment (in similar fashion to the synergy between shock and overload in his new rework that was showcased on Devstream 72) and cause them to act in a similar fashion to Vauban's Tesla ball when an enemy approaches it.

[Volt discussion: Emperor Palpatine mode]

Why would we need to cycle the ability?  Go look at Witcher 3 for Alternate Sign Casting.  The Igni Sign, as well as other signs, can be both cast with a tap, and continually cast in a small cone as its alternate cast (imagine a flamethrower in the case of Witcher 3) by holding down on the key.  This should exist for all buffer frames, since buffing when you have the buff mod equipped can be such a ridiculous hassle sometimes.

[Coming Soon: Devstream #72!]

1.  Are there any intentions to revisit finisher attacks soon?  Currently they are somewhat slow and clunky, and it is generally more effective to select a stealth frame and slide attack with orthos p across the map.  A finisher system that allows chaining between targets, along with a touch-up on detection and response from enemy AI would allow for stealth finishers to become much more viable for gameplay in anything other than spy and rescue missions.

2.  Radial Javelin is one of the less useful abilities that Excalibur possesses.  Are there any intentions to give him a newer ability that matches the level of effectiveness in the late-game as his other abilities?

3.  Shadow Debt melee mods heavily amplify the current Crit Meta for melee weapons.  Are there any intention to rebalance these mods, and possibly allow them to be used in some way(albeit heavily reduced, to prevent these mods from being ridiculously OP) by Melee Abilities (e.g. Excalibur's Exalted Blade, Valkyr's Hysteria, Wukong's Primal Fury)?  This seems fairly counteractive to the original statement made when EB was stripped of weapon-specific mods:

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Next week we intend to limit the Melee mods that work with Exalted Blade strictly to generic mods (ie: Pressure Point, Molten Impact, etc) but not weapon-specific augments. We appreciate that this will remove certain fitting strategies however we feel that those combos were not the intention of the ability and want to avoid making it so that you only want to play Excalibur with one or two specific weapons.

Blood Rush/Body Count is currently very strong, and simply obliterates any weapons that are outside of a viable crit chance.  When combined with Berserker, it just absolutely dwarfs status and raw damage builds.

[Melee 3.0 _ Simplest And Concrete Concept]

On 1/25/2016 at 5:05 AM, Burnthesteak87 said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush

Yeah, this is the way. First step in the right direction.

While the "CONCEPT" of mods that rely on the MCC to boost effectiveness is a great idea, Blood Rush is terrible.  All it does is both affirm AND heavily boost the Crit Meta that exists in this game.  "Crit is King" is boring, and it exists everywhere.  Should crit exist?  Sure, but mods like Berserker and Blood Rush are cancerous meta-enforcing mods.  What's worse is the fact that DE made a HUGE deal about weapon-specific melee mods affecting Warframe abilities nearly a year ago, but these new Shadow Debt mods come in, unusable by frames like Excalibur, Valkyr, and Wukong.  Why?  Because they would be TOTALLY broken as crap if they were usable on them - especially Valkyr and Wukong.  It's now generally more effective to ditch Ultimate abilities on these frames, and just use melee weapons if you want to have the best sustained DPS.  The worst part about it is it's the same problem we had back when Syndicate mods were taken from Excalibur.  If you want to mod for both effective abilities AND melee weapons, it is now impossible to have both.  A Fix needs to happen on multiple fronts to allow these mods to be used.

 

First - The Melee Combo Counter needs to be extended to at least 6-8 seconds from 3.  3 seconds isn't even enough time to sneeze, but now, thanks to Body Count, you get 15 seconds.  Even worse, with Wukong and Ash with BS augment, you can reach beyond 20 seconds.  If not extended, then the Melee Combo Counter needs to be adjusted to a system that decays when not attacking enemies, rather than completely disappearing.  Body Count can slow the decay-rate of the counter.  Either way, Body Count's benefits should stay where they are, no matter the change to the base values.  e.g. 15 seconds total should stay 15 seconds after the change.

 

Second - Blood Rush and Maiming Strike need to be nerfed or re-purposed.  This is a perfect opportunity to ditch True Steel entirely as a crit mod.  Blood Rush's values could be reworked to allow for an initial boost comparable to True Steel without a melee combo multiplier built.  A max rank Blood Rush could give ~75% crit-chance.  Seems fair if you started out with that 75% boost to begin with.  True Steel could be re-purposed to a mod that like the OP talked about, could increase the benefits of the Melee Combo Counter.  Although personally, I believe that his original values need serious tweaking.  They are way too high.  In fact, there are some values on the first step that could be on the last step of the MCC.  Each step could even introduce new benefits, rather than starting with the whole package at rank 1.  Lifestrike and Energy per Second could be some of the last.  I honestly don't know what DE was thinking with Maiming Strike.  It's ridiculously OP with Orthos P and other weapons that benefit heavily from Primed Reach.  Slap Blood Rush on there(despite its redundancy) and you'll be Red Critting after your first slide-attack, since Blood Rush seems to calculate Maiming Strike's value into the total value.  IMO Maiming Strike might just have the bite the bullet if it isn't heavily altered or nerfed.

 

Third - Berserker is a huge part of the basis of Crit Meta.  75% Attack Speed completely trumps the puny 30% from Fury.  Even the old Fury at 60%, and the new Primed Fury that we'll be seeing soon enough at 55% just won't be enough to make players seriously consider anything else if Crit is already the best way to maximize DPS - especially since Blood Rush and Body Count have now paved the way for the new Meta.  I honestly don't know an extremely effective way to solve this problem.  My only suggestion that I can think of at the time that doesn't drastically change the mod's purpose would be to change the Crit requirement to a Status Proc requirement.  This would give the Status Side of the tree a serious advantage that could bring some status weapons back up to par with the new and improved Crit Meta, and legitimize Weeping Wounds and other status mods as well.  Other than that, some value adjustments that ultimately water down berserker are the only options to help bring non-crit weapons back into the mix.

 

Fourth - Warframe Powers interacting with Shadow Debt mods.  This is a nasty beast that has reared its ugly head thanks to the introduction of these mods.  They can't be avoided if DE intends to uphold the rules that they put in place nearly a year ago about "weapon specific" mods and universal mods affecting these abilities.  DE stated that these abilities should receive benefits from universal mods, and barred weapon-specific mods like syndicate mods and Covert Lethality.  Of course, myself and a handful of others thought that the elimination of Syndicate Mods was to cover up the mistake that Covert Lethality was.  Who could blame people for thinking that, when a month before, there was a sudden push to ALLOW these syndicate mods to work on these abilties by DE themselves.  Truthfully speaking, Covert Lethality shouldn't exist.  There should never be something that bypasses challenge and instantaneously kills an enemy, no matter their stats and level.  The fact that a dagger with a single mod can theoretically kill a level 1000 Bombard in a single hit is plain stupid.

Now, to the solution for these abilities.  I have 2 possible suggestions:
  1.  These abilities should receive HALF of the benefits of the Shadow Debt mods.  It's a fairly simple fix.  It doesn't by any means truly solve the issues given enough time to build your counter, but barring Excalibur, Valkyr, and Wukong players from benefiting from these mods during their Ultimates just isn't right.

  2.  Replace the Melee Combo Counter for these 3 frames (and any future frames that receive similar abilities) with a system similar to what I suggested above as a possibility for a new MCC.  A Decaying "Rage" or "Fury" bar, or whatever you want to call it, that would be nearly impossible to go very far beyond a 2x Multiplier.  Doing so would allow DE to easily manipulate the values for these Warframes without having to modify the Shadow Debt Mods.  This system, when used specifically for these frames, would allow for a consistent "ramping up" of damage output, and could prevent them from drastically out-dpsing traditional Melee weapons when making use of the Shadow Debt mods.

 

Warframe has way too many issues with its melee system right now.  It does not reward players for strategically linking combos, despite combos existing.  Combo flow is shaky at best.  Tying to actually tie combos to each other in a way that looks attractive is near possible.  With 3, and sometimes even 2 combos for certain stances, it gets boring fast.  The worst part of it is when weapons have multiple stances, but there is an obvious winner as to which one performs best (looking at you Crimson Dervish =__=).

 

Beyond the problems with Melee, a real problem ultimately arises when it is more beneficial to bypass challenge, rather than directly confronting it with skillful gameplay.  Why get 1shot by a Detron Crewman from across the map when he could be Blinded and held up in the air, unable to move, and ready for reaping by a team-comp that doesn't even let the sweat roll down between your butt cheeks.  Enemy scaling should very rarely bring the game to a point where even tanky frames(excluding Valk, for reasons of her Ult) are vaporized by a single enemy.

I would personally like to see more experiences in Warframe much like what you experience in PvP.  A smaller number of enemies that are powerful and agile, relentlessly attacking you from all sides.  A flurry of both bullets and blades that make your head spin while you try to keep up.  Maybe some new units that even encourage melee?  Corpus Assassin Bots with Energy blades and disc-like projectiles?  Grineer Heavy-swordsmen that lunk around and swing with enough force to cause you to slide back when blocking?

My last 2 cents about the melee system might seem somewhat counter-intuitive, but I think it's a legitimate mention.  As we experienced with the transition from Parkour 1.0 to Parkour 2.0, slowing down the process slightly allowed for more deliberate and intelligent gameplay.  Rather than coptering around the map, slamming into objects, we can now skillfully traverse the map with fluid motion and grace.  It might just be that slowing down melee slightly and making it a process much like Parkour 2.0 could heavily benefit the game.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

To sum up my concerns here, now that real discussion is finally rolling:

I don't like dealing in absolutes.  I don't like saying that something is "impossible."  I come from a background and have lived a life where always keeping an open mind and never dismissing anything, no matter how small of a chance, has rewarded me greatly.  To say "It's impossible for Natah to come to the conclusion that she would want children of her own" doesn't sit well with me.  I generally put things on a scale, and try to balance whether or not those points are "more" or "less" believable, and will usually opt for the point that I believe has more chances of success.  I just want to relay this point, as when people say "You think it's impossible" as a direct response to me, it just doesn't bode all that well with me, since it's unlikely that whatever the topic is, that I would believe it to be "impossible."  Thee only absolutes I will ever deal in is those that lock canon in place.

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To me it is interesting that she doesn't say "yes I wanted children". Her answer is more akin to "I didn't want to be a child". So from these lines I take it that she wanted to be in the societal position of a parent, rather than that of a child. Of course one can't be a parent without having children but it's not necessary to actually birth them (regardless of how we call the exact biological process of Sentient reproduction) and it was probably her work with the Tenno that made her realize that even though she can no longer produce offspring, she could still be "a parent".

This seems to push a theme of both maturity and rebirth on a grand scale for Natah.  She even went as far as to change her name.

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I am uncertain what constitutes "a typical parent-child group" or acting as one, but it's likely that this kind of relationship can actually exist between people who aren't related in this way. Have you heard the expression "he was like a father to me"? Conversely, individuals who don't share such emotional bond but act like they do probably stand to gain something from it. But does that apply to Hunhow and Natah? I don't see how. Skipping the next paragraph because I don't see how it's relevant (in the context of this discussion), sorry, and then 

A typical parent-child interaction would be one where parties offer levels of affection that is observed in a normally functioning familial setting.  Children obeying parents, parents providing emotional, nutritional, and really any other need that a developing child needs.  Sharing details of one's life that you wouldn't otherwise share at all with others.  The list goes on.  I'm not saying you have to be biologically connected to share these feelings, but what IS required is that you need prolonged interaction between the "parent" figure and the "child" figure in their respective roles to achieve an emotional connection. 

Maybe there was a lack of clarity about the point, but what I'm mainly driving here is that IF their method of reproduction does not necessitate a physical maturity process where the "child" relies on the "parent" to provide basic needs and wants, then an emotional connection similar to what we observe in our species between both parent and child for all generations would be unusual in their culture, detaching them from our line of thinking.  Logically speaking, parents wouldn't need to care about looking after their children, and children wouldn't need to care about respecting their parents.  Mitosis essentially creates a clone of the cell that it originally split from.  Imagine being a clone of an individual born into this world.  Even if you accepted that you came afterwards as a direct result of some cloning process, and while you would possibly retain some form of respect for your original self, you are your own thinking entity with comparable intellect to your original.  If your level of intelligence and ability to perform is on par with an individual that you work with, what do you consider him/her?  Most would say a colleague.

The rest of that last paragraph from my last post was more-so about laying the groundwork for understanding, as a species, the benefits and deficits that occur in a normal familial setting, and the possibilities that can stem from a lack thereof.  It's not about biology for us, just as you said, as much as it is the experiences that we share with people as we grow.  A basic level of filial piety can indeed exist, but for most, it is the interactions that occur during their maturity that determines their emotional consideration of those around them, and how these interactions even shape the children themselves.

Of course this all assumes that somebody at DE is taking all of these concerns about the maturation process into account when determining "how" Sentients reproduce and function as a society.

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You are saying, "if nothing necessitates filial piety but they still act it out, then that concept is no longer relatable because it's not caused by the same that causes it in our society"? That's a good argument especially in the context of them being aliens and thus not the same as us, but I am not sure how much it materially changes anything, notwithstanding that filial piety is respect towards those who brought you into the world.

And that is the thing that potentially concerns me with our lack of understanding about the Sentients.  Could it be because they intended to replicate or evolve a social structure comparable to that of the Orokin, simply because it is the only example of intelligent life acting out the process of community that they had observed?  It could very well be that they are simply imitating what they know, rather than relying on the benefits of such a system, or even needing it at all.  If they are simply imitating for the sake of a false image, then that opens the door to the Sentients being much more dangerous to everybody - even themselves.

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am I correct to understand that you meant we can't expect her to "want to be a mother" in the same way "humans want to be mothers"? If so we'd be more or less on the same page but your theory in the OP is not about differences between ours and Sentient society, it's a build-up towards "Natah could not have wanted to save the Tenno, someone else put her up to it (it was Margulis)" and that's what I'm arguing against here. I believe Natah didn't need the sort of outside influence that would qualify as "brainwashing" to want to save the Tenno.

As to the first part, basically Yes.  As we don't know enough about the Sentients, then it is much harder to make the leap that motherhood is the same for us, and as such, could be perceived vastly differently because of that lack of understanding.  My post was indeed a buildup saying that Margulis saved us, if the events transpired as they did, but I will admit that "brainwashing" was a slightly rash word.  I was using the most extremes on these spectrums that we're entertaining in that particular reply because the point of that reply seemed to be to drive powerful emotions home.  I would like the think Margulis played a part in the sparing of our lives.  As to how much so, I don't claim to know at all.  My original post deliberately avoided delving into that, because I just can't say.  I used the term "planting a seed" to suggest a vastly varied potential scope on influence.  I would like to think that she hardly did much at all.  A simple "straw that broke the camel's back" as it were.  All it takes for some people to act is to know that there is even just one person that empathizes with you.  You could easily be prepared to do whatever you deem necessary, but the triggerpull could be as small as a kind gesture.  As to whether Natah would've needed it?  I don't know.  I don't see her either needing it or not really being unsurprising no matter which side of the domino fell.

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Regardless of how parenthood is experienced and realized among these aliens, she gave this explanation. Becoming unable to reproduce is the root of her betrayal. Then the following exchange takes place

While that indeed is true, it still leaves the possibility that Margulis could've affected Natah's decision in such a minuscule and/or unperceivable way that Lotus feels that the act and thought was entirely her own.  That is of course if Margulis had done anything at all.  In fact, if Natah had experienced a "soma-void-resonance" event much like Baro due to being near the Tenno, and had heard Margulis's pleas(either from while she was alive, or even her current consciousness reaching out to her), all it really would mean to Natah is an affirmation that she is already doing the right thing by protecting them.

Pinning Margulis's influence(or not doing it at all) on Natah's timeline would be as simple as mocking up a small story of how she did it, and how it helped the gears turn.

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Simple but impossible. You can only change your own mind. Like earlier you admitted you revisited the text and found you had wrongly remembered something - you brought the evidence to yourself and changed your own mind.

I'm not one for delving into the technicals of reassessing one's belief on a topic in such a way, as it's a can of worms where people can derail the conversation quickly.  But of course "you can't change my mind."  Your actions and information can bring me to change my own mind.  What happened with that piece of information was indeed my lack of consistency with properly revisiting the content of the Natah quest before typing, but at the same time, you asked me to bring that information forward.  Your action of a request made me revise information on the topic, and as such, I changed my mind, recognizing that I had misinterpreted a piece of the information.

This by all means follows the concept of  "bring me evidence(or a lack thereof) - I change my mind."

 

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Why a being of pure logic, "thinking" in numbers and programmed to fulfill a specific goal have to worry about Natah and not just arrive to conclusion: she is "riven", so she have to be "reclaimed" and in the meanwhile we go on with the Plan B. I think, that if Hunhow was as focused on his mission as Natah was supposed to be before Void jump in the stratavar original post - he would not try to spare his seed from a future her "shamefull" actions will bring. No matter how catastrofic for her (and us) it may be.

Well we don't actually know the weight of this "Sequence" and these "Precepts", but the Sentients did indeed gain "sentience" along the way while terraforming the Tau system.  Noting that "sentience" is the ability to feel emotion and recognize perspective and subjective thoughts, while intellect is "sapience".  So it is clear that the Sentients do indeed feel some kind of emotion.  As to what though, we can't be entirely sure with so little exposure to the Sentient race.  As Belgard said, the Sentients show familial traits from what we have seen so far.  But again, we don't know the limitations and expectations of these "Sequences".  Is there something that compels the Sentients to complete their sequence?  Does each sentient have it's own, unique sequence that only he/she can fulfill?  Is being considered riven and intended for "reclaiming" spawned from one's inability to complete a sequence, or does it have to do with traitorous intent?  In which case, it most certainly could be that other Sentients could've been "reclaimed", but not from betrayal as much as a logical inability to complete one's sequence(e.g. Capture Target, but Target is dead at time of initial contact).  It would really be nice to get more in-depth explanations about the Sentients and what makes them tick :\

 

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

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Partly because you had no trouble tearing into others posts the way you did ;)

I'm not asking necessarily as to your moral interest, as much as I'm asking as to logical interest, if the evidence was literally in the same post where a counterargument existed.  You doing so hints towards ulterior motive beyond the interest of discussing lore.

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Partly to see what your answer for somewhat stretched idea will be. You did took it like I was claiming that Ember was existing at that time, not the: “It's no surprising if Zariman kids hurt many – with their inability to control their powers and Orokin studying them. It's like having Ember's with her 4th firing randomly without ability to turn it on and off at will. One of the possible things for your Operator to say in end of the Second Dream: “We were dangerous, broken. Everytime they tried to fix us, someone always got hurt." 

Looking at the Rhino Prime Codex entry, it was fairly clear that few ever knew about the Tenno.  Beyond the "High Council" or whatever you want to call them, and a select few scientists, then we are fairly limited with who i could possibly be at that point.  Well beyond the point is that even with Kaleen and Margulis being separate people, it is clear that Margulis was afflicted by the Tenno.  One of the Operator dialogues confirms that Margulis was afflicted and blinded by the Tenno.  Barking up the Kaleen = Margulis Tree is like putting a boot on the wrong car to tow a vehicle off.  I've already stated that I'm fine with either character being or not being the same person.  I did indeed include the possibility that they were one in the same, but mainly due to error.  It wouldn't be the first time that lore went and got revised after a good year or 2 of existing on the back-burner.

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It took me some time and several posts from you to understand why you come up with the reprogramming idea. I think. Maybe I do not get it at all still. Well, none of us are mind-readers, so it's no surprise that others unable to get your point and that you can not do the same.

If you're talking about Sentients having emotions and being human-like, I can completely understand the point.  I'm simply offering another possibility.  If DE opts for saying that Margulis has nothing to do with this, and Natah did in fact make the decision on her own, while I'll be somewhat disappointed to see the Margulis's Last Wish Theory go, it won't by any means blow my brain right out of my eyesockets.

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I certainly would like to chat about how alien Lotus can be (think I mentioned several times that in my headcanon she is NOT a human), hell, I bemoan the fate of Geth from Mass Effect series and would probably drag them into the conversation...

I unfortunately haven't played the Mass Effect games, but I glanced at the Wiki to understand an outline of the Geth.  Most of their outcomes do seem rather dreadful.

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But it will be kicking up the dust I guess :(

If you want to give input towards a topic, feel free.  If you're interjecting into an argument that has moved well past the point of reference, then it generally doesn't do much unless you bring a different perspective.  I was feeling that your input didn't bring new directive to the argument(specifically talking about the part involving Margulis and Kaleen) as it had already been discussed that whether or not they were the same person, neither point could make the vessel take on water.

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I argued from that point because, to the very first person who replied to your thread in disagreement, you responded on the basis of "this is wrong because tropes are bad and" etc. in addition to making claims that are not firmly rooted in canon and further being unwilling to discuss the premises upon which you base your claims.

The very first response to my post brushed the content of my post aside in a fashion that left me with the impression that they simply didn't care to actually have a productive conversation.  They gave an argument that touched on the points that suggest the Sentients are a PRODUCT of something, and never really bothered to convey the idea of emotions, other than emotions of human beings themselves.  I retorted in a way that said it would be less foolish to expect them to have differing values.

Spoiler

Not this whole ghost of Margulis again...

The sentients where made to be livingterraformers, sent to the tau system to pave the way and construct a rail gate.... They did it then wanted to return home.

The Orokin being the pricks they were already thought ahead and had engineered a flaw which destroyed their ability to reproduce if they used the rails to traverse thevoid and thus kicked off the war.

 

Now have you ever met a woman who found out they can never have kids?

They get stupidly maternal over children and adopt them..... Or become the crazy cat lady.

We're a little bit of both.

It talked about how there's no way I could understand maternal instincts, in which I responded just how I responded to you.  I basically asked "How can you be certain that these advanced beings can have morals that align so readily with ours?"

Spoiler

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

Spoiler

We've only run into two in game,  Hunhow and Natah (aka space mom)

The other things you are thinking of are merely shards or drones of Hunhow, and yes they are quite focused on their singular job.

But Natah is his daughter or child a full separate thinking entity like you orI and not a drone.I

My response, basically repeating the same thing.

Spoiler

You're really implying that these things that are basically highly functioning computers with biomechanical structures can be reasoned into a category that suggests that they're totally morally and intellectually comparable to a human being?  I would expect DE to take a more complex route honestly than just "feelings made it so".  Seems too much of a trope.  If it hasn't hit you yet,  I think I-Robot was a bad movie.

Besides, we don't know how they reproduce, other than what seems to be some obscure evidence from the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests mitosis is the closest thing to what we observe here in our world.  Expecting a "normal" Father-Daughter relationship from that is kinda.....weird to begin with.

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The more you post though, the more convinced I become that your insistence on "programming" wrt Sentients comes from the Crewman synthesis where they are referred to machines. Theory and philosophy on what constitutes a machine aside, in that very entry, the possibility of these creatures betraying their creators was already discussed. That alone should be an argument enough about their having a free will, even in their initial form.

My insistence actually comes from most of the content from the Natah Quest.  Hunhow and Lotus both refer to this "Sequence" multiple times.  For the fact that it referred to the same thing multiple times, and was talked about in a way that made it seem very important, I assumed that it was used in more of a literal sense, comparable to Programming.  A Sequence is an order of commands.  They are performed in a very particular order, where the contents and outcomes of past parts of the Sequence ultimately affect future parts.  A Computer sits and waits for the current part of the Sequence to be filled, and then it moves on to the next.  When the Sequence is over, the Program is terminated.  If an action deviates from the Sequence, it will generally create either fatal errors or vastly unreliable values.

All of that aside, I honestly thought there was more that actually confirmed a "compelling desire" to complete the Sequence in the Natah quest.  I went back and watched a play-through, but there wasn't anything concrete.  I apologize for that, as it's been quite a while since I completed the quest.

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How they procreate is hardly important. We have already witnessed within the game a conversation between a Sentient and its offspring, one that very heavily implies filial piety as a characteristic of Sentient relationships. It is irrelevant whether they experience love the same way humans do. Emotions are subjective. Even between humans they are not experienced the same way and are not comparable.What's important is that we have shared, relatable concepts.

Actually it would be still very important.  The maternal instincts and actions of a human parent aren't just because of hormones.  A parent-child bond heavily drives our interest as humans to procreate in this modern setting.  If that bond did not exist between two individuals, but those individuals acted as a typical parent-child group, most people would question that heavily if they knew that those two individuals lacked an actual bond.

Think of how many individuals with biological parents refuse to make contact with their parents if they've lived a good portion of their lifetime without them.  The lack of their parent-child bond is the main contributor in these situations.  It would be somewhat unexpected if they weren't somewhat hesitant or taken aback when asked to meet them.  What about the millions of dollars that have been funneled to research the potential effects of single parenthood?  Lacking role models?  Limited social interaction and a lack of moral and ethical expectations?  These factors very heavily affect developing children.  Suddenly these factors don't matter, but there's a construct of filial piety?

If Natah and Hunhow actually have a bond that suggests filial piety, then suddenly, it would be expected that many other maternal and familial values would be present as well.  So simply put, if they do actually reproduce through mitosis, or even ANY possible form of reproduction that would suggest a lack of a maturity process, but have these values, that's certainly detracts from this model of a character-type that supposedly resembles humans in their values.

You're suddenly wanting to drive this point that we cannot fully comprehend all of their emotional attributes.  Huh....could've sworn I was suggesting the same thing.  Even with shared, relatable concepts, we cannot just assume that suddenly every aspect of our emotions is comparable to theirs, which hinders your points just as much as it does mine.

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is not grounded in canon. It is grounded in your flawed reading of canon only

Feel free to bring me hard concrete "canon" that directly debunks this if you're going to call my reading "flawed", since to be flawed, then that suggests there is some "truth" somewhere.  Is my reading flawed because you disagree with it?  Or do you really know something that the rest of us don't?  Unless of course you know somebody at DE who writes the lore, and I'd love it if you could set me up with a meeting.

Really though, how much is ACTUALLY grounded in canon?  Where is it thoroughly grounded in canon that sentients have maternal interests that are exactly like humans?  And that this theory is just totally wrong?  There isn't jack-diddly-squat really.  I'm bringing what little exists to the table.  The fact that I'm bringing up a theory that does indeed make assumptions about the possibilities in the Warframe universe would suggest that I don't actually believe literary texts exist in a vacuum.  The fact of the matter is though, that when brought such little evidence about this universe, then you need to remember that nearly any assumption you make, whether it be based on character values, traits, social constructs, or even universal and subjective truths could be turned on their head with the introduction of a single line of text.  Again - bring me evidence - I change my mind.  Fairly simple concept.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

18 hours ago, rand0mname said:

Take Ember, turn Word on Fire on and run around in Greener base. Will surviving Heavy Gunner have any connection to Kaleen? Since they will be female and burned. Nope, but I bet there were other causalities then "Void-demons" were studied. As for:

Only Margulis in all Origin system would try to comfort a lonely and scared child? But that's me nitpicking. I know you said that Kaleen and Margulis could be different people.

Now to the juicy part: Sentients, while capable at some emotional response, have the purpose they have been born for and are not capable to change (or want to change) that purpose without outside influence. That outside influence was an echo of Margulis. It influenced Natah while she was Void jumping. There is no way for Natah to gain that sudden desire to become mother, since it was not in her programming. Am I correct in understanding your point?

Emotions: 

Hunhow quotes. Call it bad voice acting or me reading too much into it, but he claims to love Natah, says she is capable of fear and states that his hatered is strong enougth.

Sudden desire to become a mother:

Hunhow quotes again: why something above or beyond such desire mentions "wombs in ruin" if it was not important for this creature? Now, I do not claim that Sentient wants to be a parent for the same reasons as human would. Maybe it's part of what they are and one incapable at creating new Sentients is seen as defective or limited in it's functions on the top of my head, other people may come up with other reasons... What's important - desire of Natah to become a mother was not totally alien to her.

Being unable to change or alter their goal without reprogramming:

Small starfish robots had a purpose of arriving to Tau, terraforming a planet, building a Relay. I am sure going at war with Orokin was not part of a plan. But they did. You may say that it was a different "generation" and individual Sentient is not capable to alter a program... But looks like Natah is not the first one to become "riven", since Hunhow knows what will happen to her - "reclaiming". Which he see as something that he would want to protect her from. Also, being able to adapt is one of the Sentient core traits. Who says that with enough new data Sentient can not get a new goal by itself?

If Natah had that sudden desire to cuddle all Tenno after the Void jump, I would say it's not possible at all without yes, brainwashing. But she done all that she was born for - and stopped at the last sequence. And I bet that took some time. Which would give her the opportunity to get to know Tenno and become protective of them (yes, Hunhow quote again) without Margulis whispering in her... "head"?

I am not telling that Sentients are humans, far from it. But they are not machines that have only one goal.

You certainly love to kick up dust after a part of the conversation is put well in the past.  Ember didn't exist at that point - duh.

Most people were naturally afraid of the Tenno that even knew about their existence.
Few people would've ever had a chance to have an interaction with them.
 

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But that's me nitpicking. I know you said that Kaleen and Margulis could be different people.

And please enlighten me why you bothered to tear into something the way you did, rather than noting my statement beforehand if I made the statement already that it was entirely possible that they were?

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Emotions: 

Hunhow quotes. Call it bad voice acting or me reading too much into it, but he claims to love Natah, says she is capable of fear and states that his hatered is strong enougth.

If they gained Sentience along the way during their time in Tau, then yes.  Development of Emotions, or something resembling them, would be entirely plausible as well.

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There is no way for Natah to gain that sudden desire to become mother, since it was not in her programming.

Wrong.  I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE.  I simply said it was improbable.  It seems more difficult for me to believe that an alien being with a design and intent from the very beginning to stray from said intent and design.  The 4 F's are pretty strong drives for human beings.  If Sentients were made in a way that they felt a similar compelling drive to complete their "sequence" as Hunhow and Natah call it, then I would expect it to be a fairly strong desire.  But it may just be me interpreting the use of this "sequence" word wrongly.  But at the same time, considering that the Sentients are indeed machine-like in origin, then a sequence which would have to do with their programming would make some sense.  And as a note, the word sequence isn't a one-off.  It was used 3 or 4 times in such a short conversation from both Hunhow and Natah.  Seems kind of important.

I still think it is important to remember that we don't have anything locked down as to how they procreate.  It could be something where they bump uglies and have maternal emotions involving their offspring, but we also have the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests at the very beginning, it was something resembling Mitosis.  If you could split off something that looks and sounds like you with a near-identical level of intelligence, would you think of it as your child?  I would personally think "Oh man i have a clone now.  Ok man, you play games while I work around the house, and in 3 hours, we'll switch and do the same.  We're gonna get so much s*** done now!"

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But looks like Natah is not the first one to become "riven", since Hunhow knows what will happen to her - "reclaiming".

While that certainly has a stance, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has happened.  Good coding is coding that that ties off loose ends.  If the Sentients think like good coders, then that means they essentially expect the unexpected.  It's entirely possible that they had a contingency in place in the event that a Sentient betrayed them.  I mean look, the Orokin betrayed them, and they split from the Orokin, willing to even fight them.  All it takes is a second to think "What if other Sentients do that to us?"  And I am interested in what this "Reclaiming" that Hunhow mentioned means as well.  Maybe just breaking them down for materials to rebuild?  Even a "reset" event that returns them to an "older version"?  That would prove catastrophic for us if they ever got their hands on Natah.

If another Sentient did betray them, and it was the First Betrayal of the Sentients, then that could make a good story as well that we could delve into in lore passages along the way.

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Almost all that being said here is pure speculation, without ANY sunstantional evidence. Nothing is set in stone till Devs say it. But, some speculations are more plausible then the others. You posted your idea on forum and what you expected? That everyone will agree with you? The fact that people are here is a prove that is an intersting topic to some and if not everyone is: "OMG, you are a rigth" is not a reason to not be respectfull.

It is speculation.  What I'm expecting is a discussion that has more of a basis than "You're wrong because tropes are bad and my idea is a trope that is a better trope than your trope but only really because I like my trope more and it has nothing to do with two tropes being compared on a quantifiable level(because that's not really possible to begin with)".  I used the word trope once(not even in my original post), and somehow, somebody got caught up on it and bothered to make a multi-response forum based on a single word, and still continues to do so.  I continually asked for debunking, and just got this response that can be boiled down to "Free will is good, you take it away, that's bad" despite never at any point saying that it was literally impossible for Natah to do this on her own.  I'm simply arguing my stance that it would be much less likely to happen for her, since she descended from machines that followed code.  My biggest problem with this argument is that all i get is a stone-wall that refuses to believe the possibility that Sentients MIGHT not be human, while I continue to entertain the idea that they could be, but still bring what little evidence exists against it.

Your argument as to "why does everything have to be connected" leaves room for near-endless possibilities.  That makes more sense argumentatively than saying "I don't like your idea."  Naturally, I don't have much of a retort for your argument, because it is entirely possible that it is the truth.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

1 hour ago, Belgard said:

Sorry I just don't think it's worth arguing with someone who doesn't see it as morally wrong to take away someone's free will (also, as narratively wrong to take away a character's agency). We'd literally have to spend the rest of the discussion shoving dictionaries in each other's faces because apparently our references for words are completely and utterly incompatible.

Bothering once again to shoehorn this idea that "Sentients are totally people" into this conversation to push your interest in degrading my moral standpoint here is slightly amusing.

1.  It's a game

2.  It's Fiction

Extra Points: Sorry if I don't play along with your underfunded moral crusade.

Does making realistic characters that people can empathize with matter in a well-told story?  Sure.  But Jesus Christ man, you're saying "nah, your theory is total bogus because Lotus looks and sounds human, so she's totally human, and there's no possible way she's anything other than that."

Hell, for all we know, we could all be totally getting played.  Lotus and Hunhow could be just as deceptively human-like as Gen 3 Synths from Fallout 4.

Just because it quacks and walks like a duck, doesn't mean it can't be a clever horse.  Would DE do that to us?  Very doubtful, as that would kinda trash the entirely of their story that they've built so far.  But hell, they could do it if they want to.

But anyways, saying that I lack morality because my theory SUPPOSEDLY strips Natah of her free will that she may or may not have is a little much, don't you think?  But no, that's ok.  I'm not one for judging one's moral standpoint over a a video game forum about lore of a fiction.  So do yourself a favor and stop trying to bring our morals into this conversation.  You do nothing but degrade yourself by waving your flag here.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

5 hours ago, Belgard said:

This is the most surreally absurd thing I have seen on this forum to date. 

 

 

The only thing that I see here that's absurd is that rather than bringing me something, you dance around it, while requesting me bring you substantial evidence.  If you're going to bring a point to the table, intend to back it up, rather than opting for rousing the peanut gallery.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

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... sorry which one should it be?

Both, since I'm asking HOW it is morally wrong, since it simply doesn't really make much sense from my perspective, other than saying it's not fair for super-advanced biomechanical robots to not feel human emotion.  Bring an argument that makes sense about how it is morally wrong for Lotus to have something planted in her head, other than "that's wrong because free will and feelings."

22 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Always eager to see examples from the actual lore cause I think you're reaching. From the very beginning they were bred for a specific purpose, sure, and it was discussed that only their Void-intolerance would prevent them from turning on the Orokin. Not programming. I truly hope you won't return quoting Teshin's uninformed accusations.

I'll certainly dig for it when I get the chance.  As I'm on short schedule, I currently can't.  I'll return with it soon enough.

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Good to see we're on the same page.

If we were on the same page, you would be arguing with something other than "Feelings that we don't actually have the ability to entirely comprehend are legitimate reasons to make a story about murder-mom playing house with puppet-children"

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Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back, please. Thoroughness or not, even now with this self-congratulatory paragraph, you're not saying I misquoted. Did I, or did I not? Your tl;dr is still that Margulis planted a seed in Natah's head and saved the day. It may not do me much good to quote you, I understand that, but now is the first time you are mentioning the possibility of a conversation between these two characters instead of alluding to mind invasion and whatnot.

Patting myself on the back?  Hardly, but feel free to make accusations with no real basis.  You quoted words with conditionals and from my perspective, it appears that you clung to that as if it were the point that i entirely agree with, despite my lack of saying so.  The words "Planting a seed" are so obscure and non-descriptive that it is fairly encompassing for a multitude of storypoints that DE could opt for if they take this route.  I already typed a metric-butt-ton of words.  I'm not going to delve into every single possibility here.  I'd rather let others have some room for interpretation beyond the obvious, for the sake of legitimate conversation.

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I will reject any and all theories that take Lotus's agency and seek to prove that the Tenno were saved by someone else, no matter how phrased, until DE lowers me into my figurative grave.

K.  I consider your points irrelevant until DE specifies otherwise then as well, if that's the game you want to play.  Have a good day if that's all you're going to bring to the conversation.  I'm not trying to PROVE, as I have no PROOF.  This is theory crafting based on the tiny speck of lore we actually have that directly explains anything here.  If you don't agree with my theory based on some kind of poor emotional argument, then i especially have no interest in it.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

5 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Yeah that's my point. It doesn't impact your theory in the slightest but you still, like, included it... you're not alone in this, it's a tired trend.

You're going with a very particular definition and I'm dying to know where you lifted it from. It's not the one used in academia for sure but even if you're coming with it from urbandictionary or tvtropes, last I remember they were holding back from saying tropes are bad by default. What you're describing is more akin to a cliché. But I assure you, "incomprehensible alien morals" IS one and there is nothing original about it. It's a cheap cop out and nothing more. And there is nothing in the game to suggest that it applies to the Sentients anyway.

Alright. You wrote basically that Margulis's Void ghost invaded Natah's mind and subtly brainwashed her. To you that's the only way to explain how a Sentient could change her ways. And you obviously see nothing wrong with it. But I am telling you again, this is bad in every fathomable way. It's bad as a plot device, it's morally bad, and it's also boring. You think it was, what, just a little nudge in the right direction? Still denies Natah the ability to change out of her own volition. You're denying her free will on the basis of some sort of unbreakable Sentient programming. 

Now that would be boring.

I included it in my theory because it's a possibility.  Not because I preferred either notion over the other.  I wouldn't have to, since their stories are nearly identical.  I included the possibility that DE made a mistake, forgetting to alter/abide by lore that was already in place.  Most people accept the notion that they're the same character anyways, so I went with it.

It's been noted multiple times that the Void is poison to the Sentients.  It's also been heavily implied that there is some kind of connection between memories/consciousness that exists, contained in the void, and that an individual with an affinity to the void is able to connect with those memories and consciousness that remains there.  As to what that really means, we still don't know, but I personally enjoy the concept of Oro and that it could possibly contain the "soul" of the individual.  That's my preference.  When DE comes out as says it's wrong, then that portion of my theory is out the window, and I'm fine with that, since they write the lore.  Neither you nor I.  Point being in this paragraph is that the Void seemingly connects individuals in a way that the dead can pretty much interact with the living, either memories in a location, or the soul itself.  What would be so hard about making the connection as saying that Natah, a Sentient that is more "sensitive" to the existence of the Void, could've had some kind of encounter with Margulis's thoughts or soul?  I'm not sitting here saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Sentient to change their mind.  I'm saying that they are born for a very specific reason, and that it would be more likely that some interaction with an individual who wishes to convince them otherwise would help push them in the direction of making that decision for themselves.  Either that interaction be a conversation, observing their memories, or something as simple as planting a small seed that Natah could empathize with, because of her own situation and desire to be a mother.

The thing that I find most amusing is that you're pretty much trying to have a heavyweight slugout between the "Feelings" and "Aliens" tropes, and since you side with feelings, despite it totally being a trope, you are completely comfortable with dismissing Aliens by calling it out for being a trope as well.  I'm pretty much doing the same thing, since i think that "Feelings alone" is just boring as hell.  In fact really, if anything, you could say what I'm siding with is more of a "Connected Feelings" bs solution that you see in a majority of kiddie anime, overpowering the "Alien" trope.

Maybe I'm fusing the definitions of cliché and trope.  I pulled them from my head from what I remember from english courses nearly a decade ago.  In fact, they're nearly synonymous to a point, but sure, let's go ahead and give you that one, because it's a pointless tree to bark up here if we're going to start linking dictionary.com links for the sake of epeen.

Good job quoting something that's essentially an extrapolation that I included for the sake of thoroughness.  Planting a part of her consciousness would indeed be a boring solution, but I put it there to prevent others from bothering to reply with that extrapolation themselves.  Hell, look at where I went on about the Detron Crewman Synthesis.  I built up the possibility of the scientist being Margulis, and then disagreed with it.  Pulling a single line with so many conditional words won't do you much good here.

And do me a favor and explain how the flying duck Margulis affecting Natah's mind is "morally" bad.  That makes less sense than male flatworms piercing their own head with their genitalia during reproduction.

Trying to give a robot free will, is indeed again, a pathetic trope that you're arguing for the sake of countering another trope.  Bring me something a little more substantial and original rather than trying to make me feel like some kind of morally irresponsible monster if you intend to convince me of anything productive.

 

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

8 hours ago, Belgard said:

I don't like your theory. Not only do you seek to eliminate characters by merging them into one, you also take away their agency. Is it that far-fetched that women can experience more emotions than an overwhelming desire to have children? Why couldn't Natah, during her time undercover among the Orokin, gradually come to care about those children, used and abused by the Empire (just like her own kind)? Couldn't she empathize with their situation, being herself a child used to carry out her leader's agenda? The Tenno hated the Orokin, and so did she, as a Sentient. But she had a lot in common with the Tenno and probably couldn't bear destroying them for being anti-Sentient weapons when she knew they are more than that. When people discuss this line

they often focus way too much on the last part and not nearly enough on the rest. It's not about playing house with her tiny murder machines, she cast away her past and her nature of an instrument in someone else's plan, and became her own person who makes her own choices. Saying "she's an alien her morals are not comparable to ours" is just as much of a trope as "feelings made it so", only a worse one.

I don't understand why people want every single female character in this story to be the same person, honestly. While it's plausible that her desire to help the Zariman children could drive Kaleen to quit the military and become "the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived", lumping her together with the Lotus is too much. I truly hope the writers can do better than that.

 

Aww but it's a lot shorter than "the creature parts of which eventually ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe". Also I'm unsure no one had thought of weaponizing Transference. At least one person in the Rhino codex lab knew that the children were there. I am wondering if Davis wasn't intentionally leading the "beast" closer to them, seeing how he pieced what was happening so quickly.

 

The focus school choice dialogue does make the Zariman 10-0 sound like a colony ship, in direct contradiction of the Ember codex. To reconcile them we'd have to assume that Kaleen wasn't aware of the true purpose of the vessel. Alternatively the unnumbered Zariman in the Ember codex is not the 10-0 but an attempt to recreate that accident. The Ember codex either needs an expansion or some sort of retcon for it to work with what we know now.

The only characters that I merged were Kaleen and Margulis.  It's entirely possible that Kaleen was to be Margulis's original name, and the SINGLE codex entry was never changed to reflect that, but I also stated above that they might still be separate individuals.  Either way, assuming that they aren't the same person, despite having nearly identical encounters with the Tenno, caring for them as a mother, and then being involved in a situation where they did something "illegal", lets just go ahead and say that they are different people.  Ok, where does that leave us?  That doesn't really regress the theory at all, considering the Tenno STILL afflicted Margulis with Void energy, and probably blinded her as well in the process.

Also, something tells me you slightly misunderstand the idea of a "Trope."  A trope is an overused literary device that solves an impending problem in a way that would be unorthidox in a realistic setting, but intended to elicit some kind of dramatic response from the reader/viewer.  A robot having feelings?  Illogical - Overused - Literary Solution.

Saying that robots don't have feelings, while common, is entirely logical.  Overused?  You could argue that, but how many people argue that in defense of another solution that creates depth to an impending problem?  Happens less often than you think.

 

You may be misinterpreting what I've been saying about Lotus and Margulis, so I'll say it again.  Lotus is Natah.  She had a change of heart and let the Tenno live, now caring for them like a mother.  I'm not saying that Natah and other Sentients are ENTIRELY incapable of having feelings.  I'm saying what we've been told.  All Sentients have a mission that they are born for, and they are drawn to and sworn to complete that mission.  My theory suggests that Margulis was the inception of that change of heart in Natah.  Nothing more.  It would be VERY doubtful and trope-like if Lotus=Margulis.  That would be boring. 

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

We've only run into two in game,  Hunhow and Natah (aka space mom)

The other things you are thinking of are merely shards or drones of Hunhow, and yes they are quite focused on their singular job.

But Natah is his daughter or child a full separate thinking entity like you orI and not a drone.I

You're really implying that these things that are basically highly functioning computers with biomechanical structures can be reasoned into a category that suggests that they're totally morally and intellectually comparable to a human being?  I would expect DE to take a more complex route honestly than just "feelings made it so".  Seems too much of a trope.  If it hasn't hit you yet,  I think I-Robot was a bad movie.

Besides, we don't know how they reproduce, other than what seems to be some obscure evidence from the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests mitosis is the closest thing to what we observe here in our world.  Expecting a "normal" Father-Daughter relationship from that is kinda.....weird to begin with.

[Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?]

11 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Not this whole ghost of Margulis again...

The sentients where made to be livingterraformers, sent to the tau system to pave the way and construct a rail gate.... They did it then wanted to return home.

The Orokin being the pricks they were already thought ahead and had engineered a flaw which destroyed their ability to reproduce if they used the rails to traverse thevoid and thus kicked off the war.

 

Now have you ever met a woman who found out they can never have kids?

They get stupidly maternal over children and adopt them..... Or become the crazy cat lady.

We're a little bit of both.

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.