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Triplinster

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Posts posted by Triplinster

    Conclave: Damage-based standing

    in Conclave

    Posted

    If we are to keep the current syndicate system, I prefer making standing easier to gain in general. Like 3x the current amount and/or remove ranks from the syndicate, like we have with Simaris. It's not a serious game mode anyway so why bother turning it into a grind for newer players. Effort required for standing gain should be closer to what a sizable number of players would be willing to put in.

    Also don't like the mods being locked being more standing, should lower the standing cost for those or find a way to hand it out better. More tinkering options available to more players is nice, like those -zoom mods, need more of those at different ranks for different weapons

    • Like 4

    Conclave

    in Players helping Players

    Posted

    13 minutes ago, Eustachian said:

    Can anyone explain to me how to gain conclave standing? 

    Standing gain in Conclave is 5 to 5.5% of all Affinity gain. And yes you can double standing gain with Affinity booster.

    Things like kills and collecting Oro give Affinity and hence standing, so does making "style kills" or "kill streak" "streak end" type kills.
    Most easy/common one is killing in mid air, that actually gives extra affinity. It's easy, all you have to do is make sure you do your finishers in mid air, on top of that, if players are also in mid air, you get "Anti-Air strike" basically more affinity for killing players in mid air.

    So yea, little focus there can dramatically help with standing gain.

    Also you have daily and weekly challenges that you can work towards to gain standing. If you complete the weekly challenges, you get 50k standing from Teshin along with some Stance I believe.

    15 minutes ago, Eustachian said:

    Id like to... I spent a week just standing there with no other players 

    As for finding a match, I recommend looking at your ping settings and changing region. NA and Europe are more popular, also there are times of day where there is more activity, if you manage to find it, you can focus on playing Conclave around those times

    • Like 2

    Update: "Pro Tip: If you're having a hard time against Ignis, try this."

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    Long ago I made a post on how to reduce Ignis's obnoxious flame bloom (as a potential counter) using Effects Intensify option.
    1OFPXB9.pngKFF1kzm.png

    Spoiler

     


    Later however I noticed that even though I had the setting at "10", I still saw those obnoxiously bright flames which made it more uncomfortable to directly look at while tracking.

    I did some tests and found out the setting doesn't actually stick after game restart. Every time you restart he game, you have to manually go and set it to 200, then back to 10 for it to work. Below there is a video showing this in action.
     

    Spoiler

     

    That's all I wanted to show. In case this still doesn't work, try my game settings and see if it makes a change. And let me know if it does, so I can pin down which settings affect this.
    Game Settings:

    Spoiler

    https://imgur.com/a/q0w48uz

     

    • Like 5

    Abnormally high Damage values on some Conclave weapons after recent hotfix

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    8 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

    Okay so while the "one shots from across the map with a shotgun" are clearly broken as all get out, and the fact that it's a bug isn't good either, I'm kind of liking the damage increases otherwise? It weirdly works with and offsets the shield gating...

    We're at a point in the game where things are so broken, they start to cancel out. @Stormdragon showed me a gif other day of Melee block and Telos Ragdoll
     

    https://gfycat.com/gleefulsaneantelope

    A melee weapon is blocking 100% damage while user is ragdoll... and we see an AoE weapon doing that ragdoll... It's still bad and all but this is where we're at. It's a shame though, aside from these abnormalities, the game is fairly well balanced.

    • Like 7

    Small damage variances in nearly all Weapons in Conclave

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    Hello,

    This is not to be confused with the "Large damage variance" post I recently made.

    Basically, sometime in the recent updates/hot fixes, DE changes the way weapon damage is calculated for PvP.
    I came across these variances recently while I was working on documenting the Abnormally large variances in other recent post.

    And I have a "Small variance" theory for these newly discovered small variances.
     

    Spoiler
    Quote

    So. I know this partially because I worked on Rubico in formulas
    Long long ago when I was doing through shield calculations
    I noticed there was a variance in PvE * PvPDMGMulti result and actualy PVPBaseDMG
    Rubico was suppose to be 110.7 on paper, but was really 110.
    There were small inconsistencies like that but it didn't make a huge difference. I always took rubico as 110 because 110.7 did not agree with actual observed results
    It seems like DE in some recent patch made it so that what was suppose to happen on paper actually happened. So now in your Xbox version you see minor changes in stat, which is how they should really be on paper
    So that's "Small variance" theory.

     

    Right now, in consoles if you look at your Rubico, Vectis, and Vectis Prime. You'll see they now show 110.7, 110.3 and 107.9.
    Previously they were, 110, 110 and 106.9 respectively not only in arsenal, but also in actual observed damage results.


    This is nothing wrong, and it doesn't seem significant enough to shift the weapon balance by itself, that is how they should've been calculated on paper from the start (but weren't for some odd reason).

    This post was made just as an fyi in case people did notice the smaller variances.

    I haven't fully documented all the smaller variances, I will create an updates weapon stat sheet soon in the future. Meanwhile here's all the documented small variances so far
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xPUi1xDJzV4qUJFA93oJgF7ky6LqH_22yjg47uMnsIw/edit#gid=0 (thanks to @Stormdragon and @Vyrn. for all the input)

    Also note that the Red highlighted cells are just large variances that are not related, they were documented for my other post regarding Abnormally large variances (bug).

    • Like 2

    Abnormally high Damage values on some Conclave weapons after recent hotfix

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    As the title suggests, after a recent update, few conclave weapons have started dealing abnormally high damage values.
    The weapons that this affects are shown below.
     

    Spoiler

    Qw5P82z.png

    These high damage values are caused by the game taking "PvEminimumfalloffdamage" as PvP Base damage. At the time of writing this post, this currently only affects PC.
    So if you get one/two shotted from another corner of the map with a tigris, this is the reason.

    This is a bug, and I did make a post on it in the bug forums.
     

    Making a post here as here to let you guys know what's going on, and in case someone need a post to refer to for future post/explanation. Or well... if DE sees it here that's a bonus.

    Edit: In case of Hema and Buzlok, I'm not sure what's going on, but they're outliers in the trend, and does not affect the "Large variance" theory in the post.

    • Like 14

    Abnormally high Damage values on some Conclave weapons

    in General

    Posted

    Hello,

    Recently (maybe last hotfix from time of post?) something broken and caused few weapons in Conclave to have abnormally high total base damage.

    On closer inspection/documentation, it turns out the New damage is actually equal to PvEminimumFalloff damage, as you can see in the picture below.

    Soo yeah, funny little mistake. Mistakes can happen, specially with the remote working conditions I guess.

    Hope it gets fixed soon!
    Qw5P82z.png

    • Like 7

    (Old) Damage 2.0 vs (Upcoming) Tenno Damage 3.0

    in Conclave

    Posted

    10 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

    However one more thing to consider that isn't expressed on the table is that Rad and (to an extent) high-Puncture weapons I feel are the big reasons why people don't regularly use high armor frames. As it is currently their health/armor is treated paper thin against radiation (1.75x damage w/ 1/4 of the armor calced for damage reduction), after the new mechanics becomes 1 and 1 (after shields of course).

    Tenno use Ferrite Armor which has no weakness against Radiation. Only Toxin (25%) Puncture (50%) and Corrosive (75%). From experience people did use high EHP frames and what you describe was not much of an issue. Like there aren't many corrosive weapons. Also Impact and Puncture seem reasonably balanced against one another against current Health/Armor setups, like Puncture alone isn't really superior. And for the longest time this is what DE got right with Conclave before it started going downhill with balance.

    The difference was 1 to 2 HTK between high EHP and medium/low HP which was alright. But my issue is with some lower mobility classes (mostly 1.1 mobility) not fitting in more closely like other classes. Also Mobility seems to accelerate speed as it goes up but same doesn't happen for EHP loss or gain as well. But that's whole another topic which needs discussion.

    (Old) Damage 2.0 vs (Upcoming) Tenno Damage 3.0

    in Conclave

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

    There is planned to be a brief window where health is invulnerable after shields deplete. "...also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected." I would imagine, if things are to bleed over that badly (we can hope they won't, but...), the invul time is long enough to cover the dual-sword multihit. Not that it fixes the underlying issue, but it probably does make them a little less obscene.

    I doubt DE will make the invulnerability time long enough. I believe the purpose for this invulnerability is to give the average player a window of time to react against high HitsToKill but high fire rate damage, like Heavy Gunner with full fire rate.

    So Shield Gate will help with Low HitsToKill but very high damage shots, while invulnerability will help with High HitsToKill but also high fire rate damage. Idea is to give the player some time to react. I doubt DE will make the invulnerability time long. I suspect 0.5 seconds at max but my guess is something like 0.160 seconds.

     

    (Old) Damage 2.0 vs (Upcoming) Tenno Damage 3.0

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    2 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

    In my opinion it would wreck the balance of the conclave.

    Have you seen the linked old vs new comparison doc? It definitely does wreck the balance.

    Average TTK vs Mobility/Movement Speed balance is one aspect of the game that needs to stay balanced

    If new changes spilled without change it'll tip the scale towards Mobility/Movement speed.

    (Old) Damage 2.0 vs (Upcoming) Tenno Damage 3.0

    in Conclave

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster
    New Update

    Warframe Revised: Hotfix 27.2.1 Edit 2:
    I have now returned with actual calculations of Old IPS vs New IPS Damage calculations. So here's what happened.
    Surprisingly, some of the things I predicted in the original post (which I will now cross out but not delete) turned out to be false. 

    First of all, the Neutralization of Strengths/Weaknesses for Tenno did not carry over to PvP, nor did the 25% Shield Damage Reduction.


    Instead, we got Shield Gate which was predicted but with an unexpectedly high ThroughShield/ShieldBreak Damage invulnerability time of 1 SECOND. Yes. 1 SECOND of Invulnerability after ShieldBreak.

    But well, the Average HTK and Average TTK increased more than expected. (Note that my calculations take place with Stock Excalibur 145 Shield, 110 HP 110 Arm)
    Old AVG HTK: 6.71 Old AVG TTK: 1.01
    New ACTUAL AVG HTK: 13.5 New ACTUAL TTK: 2.08

    Aside from that there have been complaints of Elemental statuses doing abnormal for conclave stuff, which I haven't focus nor will I in this post right now.

    I will leave you with Old vs New ACTUAL damage comparison sheet as of "Warframe Revised: Hotfix 27.2.1":
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hZ7-CengF7EF1fLwYPg1Ia9TNAQMUBcdjNmRIoZpVDE/edit#gid=0

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    As some of you may have heard, DE is planning to roll out new changes to how Tenno receive damage.

    In short, DE is making all multipliers (weakness or strengths) neutral (to 0), adding shield gating and a small invulnerability timer after shield gating (Null/zero HP damage at Shield Break)

    And well, assuming these changes will "unintentionally" carry over from PvE like many past updates without any corrective balance measures. It will significantly affect the HitsToKill and TimeToKill of almost all weapons. Nearly all the changes are significant increases in HitsToKill and TimeToKill.

    To understand how it affects weapons in their current state, I've created a calculator (google sheets) which you can copy and use. It shows comparison of Old vs New damage system. It does not include all IPS or any elemental weapons. It's just to get an idea of the potential upcoming changes.

    You can just take a look without needing to change anything to understand what's going on. The current EHP setup is for stock Excalibur and IPS conversion is also set at stock.

    The "Player Invulin Time" value (0.160) is simply my guess of what I think DE might set it at. I took this by simply setting my damage block target of, blocking 3 heavy gunner bullets at shield break.

    So that's (1/12.50) * 2.

    You can change this value anytime, preferably when we find out what value DE is settling on.

    Link to Doc (Ctrl + F to find weapons you're interested in): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eNo2nnk7VT4_VSl-7owMPrmnm6bVRwKgyeG9L4u8V6c/edit?usp=sharing

    Let me know if I messed up somewhere in the calcs.

    Please let us buy conclave weapon skins with plat

    in Art, Animation, & UI

    Posted

    I do think rewards are a bit hard to reach. I made a post on the whole reward structure of conclave.

    TLDR is, standing gain is too low, reward prices are too high, low MR players are at an extreme disadvantage, reward structure fails to accomplish it's goal for the average player (motivation).

    Game balance and Removal of exclusivity (by selling stuff for plat) is another topic. But at the very least I think it should be 4 to 6 times faster for the average player to acquire the rewards through the system. Make it so that it's 4x to 6x faster, but remove the affinity booster's affect on it.

    If you check the post above, it shows how you can increase your standing gain (by working on "Style kills"). Also affinity booster doubles in game standing.
    From the post:
     

    Spoiler
    Quote

    All normal (non-challenge) standing gain in conclave is direct result of affinity gain. Like how you wear a sigil in PvE and get standing equal to a certain percentage of affinity gain.Similarly in PvP, you gain standing equal to 5% of affinity gain and Rank 0 (Mistral). This increases to 5.5% of affinity gain at Rank 5 (Typhoon). And this is affinity gain in PVP.


    So to gain more affinity and hence standing, the best thing you can do is go for style kills and take your oros. Style kills are basically things like

    Air Strike (You kill an enemy while you're in mid air)
    Anti-Air Strike (You kill an enemy who was in mid air)
    Headshots (Self explanatory)
    Revenge, Domination, Multi kills, Streak end and etc etc.

    So yea, pro tip. Kill things in mid air while you're in mid air. Adds a nice little bonus. But anyway.

     

     

    Lets talk about removal of exclusivity of Conclave Rewards

    in Conclave

    Posted

    11 hours ago, taiiat said:

    the point
    was
    that making an 'indirect PvP' and housing it in Conclave is adding something new and creates the opportunity to have things to sell, which means while it can also solve the 'problem' (by having a non direct PvP way to use Conclave) of people not being able to acquire this or that Skin without playing Conclave.

    I get you now. Well it sure helps in untying rewards to core PvP.

    10 hours ago, Loxyen said:

    As far as I could follow he tries to get into a discussion with the regular pvp players to create a consensus what the actually playing pvp community's thoughts about the rewards are. Which in the end DE could use as some sort of agreement or to lighten the hardship on the mind that a decision like removing the exclusity of rewards can bring. 

    As far as I dare to guess the post was made as a help to get things moving again, you gotta start somewhere.

    Yes.

     

    5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

    This way PvE players can get access to their "Fashionframe" and a new player who wants to focus solely on PvP can do it without going through a mind numbing PvE experience to progress (which is the reason why many PvP focused players who come to wf end up leaving it regardless of how much they like warframe's pace and mobility).

    I'm all for it. I realize that I may have come across as completely anti rewards. But I'm actually really talking about "Exclusive" rewards at core. I support having alternative way of obtaining PvE stuff for PvP players like you.

    39 minutes ago, sanghije said:

    The only reward that should be exclusive to Conclave should be the Celestial Syndana since it is a symbol of active Conclave participation for those who enjoy the game mode, as well as its functionality is directly tied to Conclave (i.e. Daily and Weekly challenge completion). 

    Well, I was thinking more about something you just see in the profile. Badges? Maybe.
     

    41 minutes ago, sanghije said:

    The Conclave Syndicate progress should also go through a change, it should reflect similarly to Nakak's Event Vending menu. Allowing all players to acquire any item at any point of progression as long as they have the reputation to redeem that item. This will remedy the hard grind wall that is the Syndicate System. Rep gain will be a hard deciding factor to the ease of doing acquiring these rewards, let it be through its current daily cap or being further more changed to reflect Nakak's Event Vending. 

    Yes to making it easier.

     

    42 minutes ago, sanghije said:

    As for bridging the gap with a PvEvP game mode, many have been proposed through out the years showing a clear interest from some parts of the community. I've even given the idea a fair shot of my own version of something that properly melds together both established worlds of Warframe into something meaningful and fulfilling in terms of roles to play and progression for a majority of players.

    Sort of what @taiiat was talking about. I will take a look.

    Lets talk about removal of exclusivity of Conclave Rewards

    in Conclave

    Posted

    55 minutes ago, taiiat said:

    i feel like you had about 90% less to say than you wrote, but because that 90% is there you basically lost me, i tried to pick out some things that i think are your main talking points / your actual subjects, but i don't know if i missed things because this is just all over the place.

    I assumed that I'm talking directly to PvP regulars when I made this post as only they understand where I'm coming from, but yea it could also be the result of me trying to type out my thoughts.

    58 minutes ago, taiiat said:

    since Conclave could house competitive Gameplay that isn't directly PvP but still competitive, there's content that could be created to fill that part of the game that... lets Marketing parade around to try and attract Players, lets them have something to sell for the work of doing something to the game done, Et Cetera.

    Isn't "Directly PvP" is where you and I differ. If you want another PvP mode that's indirect, that's absolutely cool.
    But my whole post is about actual pvp with core game mechanics, like gun combat and parkour.

     

    25 minutes ago, Genitive said:

    As long as there are issues with lack of dedicated servers and questionable balance, pvp will stay unpopular.

    It's not like we have to choose between those two things. I have a doc on the stuff we could work on if you wanna take a look.

     

    27 minutes ago, Genitive said:

    As the post above said, removing exclusive rewards won't change anything. Maybe even the opposite, fewer people will play because there will be no reason to play.

    Well, I don't know exactly. I really want to know the opinion of the pvp regular. As most people I'm around with and play with have very similar opinion as mine.

     

    29 minutes ago, Genitive said:

    The most fun I had in conclave was when they introduced modes with disabled abilities, where everyone had the same stats and weapons. If DE built conclave around this idea, then maybe I would consider it worthwhile.

    Yea, me too. Loved paris only valentines day mode. But now wonder. Why didn't they come back? They did hand out the rewards to us, what possible reason there could be to not bring them every year?
     

     

    26 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

    This is not a mega thread so please remove the tag.  That tag should only be used by DE/Mod staff when they merge a number of existing threads or want to preemptively consolidate feedback for a newly released feature.

    Sorry about that, removed the tag. I was able to use it so I thought it must be ok. I consider this to be a pretty big topic. My bad.

    Lets talk about removal of exclusivity of Conclave Rewards

    in Conclave

    Posted

    *Rolls eye*

    *Another #*!%ing PvE rando*

    Haha I know feel. 

    This time it’s coming from a long time PvP Vet and it’s mostly directed towards Conclave players and *only* conclave players.

    If you’ve been following the public forums, community groups etc, you know Conclave is brought up negatively quite often. 
    If you’ve been closely observing them from a long time or you know, watched *Cough Cough* I’m Coofing Rio *Coof* *Coof*

    You know the reason my friend. If not, here’s a snippet from my doc on core issues

    Spoiler

     

    “When parkour 2.0 came out. DE had two directions it could take warframe. The one you see now (with PvE), and the other which utilizes this new parkour system combined with combat to utilize "combat mechanics" more to allow players to use more mechanical skill. Right now however it's heavily underutilized, but whatever.

    From there, when DE developed "PvP 2.0/Conclave", they gave it a more "mechanical combat" approach which allowed players to utilize parkour and gun combat more, and it was only natural for this to happen as the opponents are much tougher and unpredictable, they're other players like me and you.

    Also fun fact. Conclave/PvP 2.0 and Trials of retribution both came in the same update! I think U16 it was?. And Parkour 2.0 came after PvP 2.0.

    But as time went on, PvP 2.0 at core stayed mainly the same, fully utilizing mechanical skill as always. But PvE on the other hand, it took the other path, like that of an MMORPG or something. It started to rely a bit less on mechanical skill and more on abilities and power creep weapons. And DE actively took this direction with PvE to cater to this new growing player base.

    So now you had two game modes going else where, PvP going in a straight line, and PvE following this curve where at first you need to move around a bit, but casualization quickly kicks in as progression occurs, and accelerates with progression.

    And there the divide started to happen. You now have PvE which heavily relies on gear, while on the other side you have PvP, which relies mainly on mechanical skill and much less on gear. So warframe's current player base (MR 16-25s) aren't very familiar with this change of environment. They didn't need to utilize parkour and gun combat as much, but now their mechanical skill is heavily tested.

    They ask, how could this happen? were they not successful in  main game mode? I think the power fantasy and casualization made this happen. (According to their belief) And so the blame goes to the design of the game mode, how it itself is flawed and not them.
    “

     


    Main reason for the anti-pvp sentiment was, removal of Raids and now recently, post Unimed unrest.

    You and I both know how both of it is BS

    “DE magically requiring #*!% ton resources to keep plug on PvP that it hurts PvE argument” and “Conclave players deserve no exclusivity/compensation! Give give give pvp rewards!” and
     well other variants of Unimed unrest arguments like how we all conspire to guard our rewards over everything else and yadda yadda yadda.

    I made a subreddit post on my views on Rewards Systems and stance on Unimed

    It’s a really long post so TL:DR is:

    Unimed link to Conclave Not Bad.Reward Exclusivity Not Bad.Person Talking about Unimed ≠ Conclave No Crucify.Focus on Actual Problem (Dysfunctional Reward stucture/system)Conclave could be fun for most, look links for more on that S#&$.Crucify Triplinster


    Now, there was one paragraph in there that was directed towards PvP players, here it is

    Spoiler

     

    Before ending this part, I ask a question (maybe to PvP players), is it better to remove exclusive rewards, and replace them with PvE rewards/resources? Like, I know we rarely get stuff like Kuva or even Forma once in a blue moon (end of match reward)But do you think it's more healthier to focus on, getting PvE rewards in hands of players that enjoy PvP more? Maybe if exclusive rewards don't work out as well due to current circumstances, perhaps eliminating exclusivity (by putting current stuff in plat market oh and see end of Part 3 if you disagree) and compensating in PvE rewards might be better in the long run.

    I think it would be helpful for new warframe players that love the combat/parkour mechanics, and prefer going the PvP route instead of grinding PvE. I have met such players, and they expressed frustration at going through PvE to get some gear for PvP, keeping PvE as a second objective for normal PvEr reasons.

     

    Now, lets get to the bottom of it.


    In the past I’ve been walking a fine line between completely vouching for removal of reward exclusivity and keeping current reward system with major tweaks.

    I’ve said several times before, I as a long time PvP player, care only about the game mode and not the rewards. Most PvP regulars I’ve been around with share the same sentiment.

    So that means whatever is beneficial for the mode, (Keep or removing exclusivity of rewards), we will vouch for.

    Now why do I keep talking about “Exclusivity” too damn much? Well, unless you’ve been living in a outer space. You know the WF community (I differentiate them from WF playerbase) doesn’t really like PvP (and I mean, core mechanics PvP) being its own gamemode.

    Most of the negative sentiment now (specially post Unimed unrest) is coming because of the exclusive rewards system. Yeah I know why cater to snowflakes yadda yadda yadda

    I guess to them it feels like something mandatory. And yea I know how silly it sounds whine about a reward system rewarding for doing X task. Here’s my bit on it from the subreddit post just to let you know I understand it.

    Spoiler

     

    I will mention again, if "PvP" itself was improve-able by just trashing the reward system, I would be the first person to endorse it.

    But the reality is, if you have a game mode, a "reward system", if implemented well, would only be beneficial.

    And it seems logical to reward a player for playing the game mode.So what do you do? You add rewards to the game mode. In PvP's case we saw exclusive skins/cosmetics that were added by DE to honor the time invested in the game mode.

    Now, this itself isn't really a bad thing. I feel like in overall discussion, this is made problematic (among other things but some of those are rightfully done so), and I think that's not helping with the real problem. I think the point I'm missing, is that, for some reason, even if a player doesn't play the game mode, that player is still (or should be) entitled to those rewards?

    Well...? If that is the point, then what's the point of having exclusive rewards in the first place? Are exclusive rewards hence deemed bad?

    Ok, "Remove rewards from conclave and give it to non-conclave players"

    Well, then as developers, something should be there to fill the "reward". You have a game mode that's completely different in atmosphere and feel, requires a different set of skills, something should be there to honor that?

    Ok then we put other set of rewards.

    "No No give this to us as well". What remains? (I hope you don't get lost here)

    My point is, I don't think attacking exclusivity should be focus (I don't vouch for it too), or devaluing rewards by handing them out, but to focus on what I think, is fixing the path to getting those rewards. And I don't think the person asking for Unimed unlink should be crucified for it, even though I disagree with him on it. But instead the discussion should be more about the actual problems.

     

    I will also link a forum post on Rewards, where I tilted more towards keeping Reward system as is but majorly tweaking the effort to reward ratio to make it easier

    So now, I’m in a position where I think we should vouch for removal of exclusivity. And hear me out, why do I think it’s beneficial at all?

    Conclave will not feel “mandatory” to these people. It’ll be one less argument for being anti-pvp. The crazy bunch will be filtered out from the slightly sane bunch, and It’ll help negate the hive mind effect in the WF community.


    And maybe then, DE will feel less weight when doing anything PvP content related. There is nothing to lose if you just experiment with a game mode that isn’t linked to a sense of progression (and no, not progression for us, I mean what the WF community thinks is progression). There would be less weight in bashing DE for working on PvP.

    DE would just work on PvP if they feel like it, we’ll still be there providing feedback. And no one can force DE on what to do or not to do with their creative free time.

    If these barriers are broken, The Conclave Experiment might ascend into something more, maybe even a thing of its own.

    So these are my thoughts on this whole exclusivity thing. As you can see, I’ve tilted more towards removal of exclusivity but I still value the other side of keeping rewards but making them take less effort. So I want to here your thoughts.

    Should we all unite to vouch for removal of exclusivity? I think so, and maybe just give a badge or statraks to PvP players. Or not.

    • Like 1

    Theorical damages and practical damages are different for some weapons ?!

    in Players helping Players

    Posted

    20 hours ago, taiiat said:

    the error margins we're talking about for this is generally like 0.1-1%, though.

    That is EXACTLY the type of variance I've been chasing for more than a year.
    Copy pasta from other post
     

    Spoiler

    I've been chasing that through-shield variance hardcore since more than a year now.

    I spent a lot of time testing and using messy spreadsheets to uncover the last bit of variation which resides in through shield damage.

    In my last testing round, I created over 15 different formulas for calculating through shield damage.

    Then I took real in game through shield damage values of 100 weapons, and compared the 15 different formulas with actual values.

    No single formula reached 100% accuracy. Best 2-3 were all 94% accurate (matched with 94 weapons).

    But man, the few weapons that didn't match, the hours I spent on those few weapons... They tell me it's 99.9% chance there is deeper rounding S#&$ going on that's rarer compared to quantization, and is not simple Rounding or int rounding.

    But this variation so far is super rare.

    First of all the through shield variation rarely occurs, even if it does, it so far seems to be limited to only 1 health damage variation (However there is another variation I'm testing that has more than 1 health damage, and there are chances that it's connected to ThroughShield).

    Then even if it occurs, the 1 health damage very rarily affects something like, HitsToKill of weapons. I've seen it affecting HitsToKill in PvP for sure. But that's a gamemode where compared to PvE, small variations affect it a lot, since there's more tighter balance around TTk/HTK compared to PvE.

    But it still drives me crazy, taking me back to the drawing board, knowing I have yet to find the cause of this ultra rare and deep variation. I'm still researching it from time to time.

    So anyway, the through shield formula that had 94% accuracy were a couple, but the easiest one of them was this: 

    
HitsToBreakShield = Ceiling(TargetShield/RoundedShieldDMG)
Damage Left Over After Shield Break(RemainDMGMultiplier) = (HitsToBreakShield - (TargetShield/RoundedShieldDMG)) = RemainDMGMultiplier
ThroughShieldDMG = RemainDMGMultiplier * UnRoundedHealthDMG

     

    20 hours ago, taiiat said:

    ok that wasn't really a very good tl;dr (literally longer, oops) but i digress.

    That's for the explanation, I'm always open to as much detail as possible since I've already spent countless hours on something similar.

     

     

    18 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

    This is not about floating point calculations, the UI is simply lying. This has happened in the past already, see e.g. here (Secura Dual Cestra in this case, but we had some bows, too):

    This is going to get more confusing, but there are actually 4 type of variances.

    1. Variance caused by quantization (-+6.25%) This one we can mostly ignore now since we can account for them easily in our calculators.
    2. Weird .1~.6 ish or 0.1%~ ish variances which might be floating point S#&$ that taiiat talked about (and potentially the variance I'm chasing in through shield calcs)

    3. Stupid S#&$ like Paris bug (and I think secura as you mentioned) arsenal lying with greater variances.
    4. Small variances where Arsenal is lying again but with very small variances. Like Arsenal says weapon should deal 50 shield and 20 health, but games does 51 and 21. I've been able to reverse the formula and get the actual weapon stats for this type of variance.

    My point is that all 4 types of variances exist in Warframe despite it looking like only 1 or 2 exist. I figured it out the hard way by number crunching.

    • Like 1

    Theorical damages and practical damages are different for some weapons ?!

    in Players helping Players

    Posted

    10 hours ago, taiiat said:

    the other type is "just" the errors incurred from converting from Floating Point to Integer. Damage often gets shifted slightly, but usually by somewhere between <1 and 10pts.
    not anything cool, unfortunately.

    Between less than 1 damage point and uhh, 10 what?

    If I understand correctly, there's an error cause a variance that's less than 1 damage point? Is that what you mean?

    Theorical damages and practical damages are different for some weapons ?!

    in Players helping Players

    Posted

    6 hours ago, taiiat said:

    this Thread is a little bit of a mess but this is a systemic result with basically all Weapons in the game - the listed Damage values of Weapons will not match what you actually shoot Enemies for. this is due to that what the Arsenal/UI/game says a Weapon deals isn't what the Weapon is set to deal in actuality. every Weapon will see some discrepancies depending on the exact value of each Damage Type that the Weapon is supposed to deal.
    the actual Damage that the Weapon deals is based off of Floating Point Rounding, which means that each Damage Type can deal a little bit more or less Damage than expected, based on that exact supposed value.

    it was very likely a decision made when originally building the foundation to take an option for transmitting Damage across Data Packets (from Host to Client and visa versa) that would simplify the Damage Numbers that would have to be transmitted by effectively reducing the 'number space', so that there are less possible numbers that may need to be transmitted.
    in short, a Weapon may deal N% of its total Damage in Damage Type Y, but in reality it is going to pick the nearest valid Damage Number closest to that theoretical number. sometimes that may end up adding some Damage, or removing some Damage. 

     

    that being said, maybe Bows were/are extra 'broken' in this regard(approaching 20% would be quite extreme for this type of math quirk with Floating Point numbers), but expected and actual Damages differing is pretty normal for just about every Weapon.

    (there's actually two levels of rounding errors due to Floating Point numbers in Warframe, but the other one is generally a matter of a <1% delta between expected and reality so i'm only talking about the mentioned one)

    Interesting to find some one else get close.

    And yes you got it right, there are two variances that occur, one as you mentioned related to damage type (+- 6.25% base dmg). And other in my observation, related to through shield damage which is usually +-1 Damage variance.

    The paris bug is completely irrelevant and is an issue on it's own, my testing (can see post above) accounted for quantization variances.
    Recently I discussed this somewhere else. So I'll just copy paste it here, it contains links to relevant posts like info about quantization variance.
     

    Spoiler

    This Paris variance was first discovered in conclave around the time me and /u/Theroxenes were first investigating general damage variances which we then discovered to be caused by what you recall as quantization.

    Thero made a post on it before, bringing the hidden quantization to light.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/809yaa/internal_damage_quantization_or_another_way_the/

    Since we have a way to consistently account for quantization (built into our calculators) that possibility is ruled out for Paris variance.

    I crunched the numbers 1 year ago in my conclave version post of this same paris variation, where I broke it down even more.

    Forum post: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/965670-paris-bows-dealing-far-less-damage-than-they-should/

    So quantization is ruled out. Not only is quantization not the cause here, but from looking at the trend in quantized damage ratios/values, if there is any total damage variance from quantization, it's usually -6.25% or +6.25, and can be shifted by changing the IPS ratios from conclave conversion mods.

    As can be seen here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18nmqtlYkvKLEjxP7zAuQXWdHjh1sMbfdljLUWVjeqhg/edit#gid=742946745&range=B1

    Paris series have consistent 15, 20 or 30% damage variance. From my observation, the total damage itself is constantly 15/20/30% lower from Arsenal values.

    So it's really really strange. This Paris variation simply poped up around U21.4, I found out because I was using it in Conclave around that time. All the number crunching suggests it's not related to quantization, but looks more like as if DE forgot to update Arsenal stats when nerfing the Paris series.

    Which is hard to believe as well, like, yea. Arsenal mismatch, nothing in patchnotes. All Paris weapons share this variation.

    Really strange.

    Spoiler

    Post on general variances/Quantization by Theroxenes: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/809yaa/internal_damage_quantization_or_another_way_the/

    Post by me bringing the issue to light in PvE: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/7mwjox/ips_shield_damage_variation_in_calculation_vs/

    I can confirm this to be true as I was the one who brought the variance in PvP/PvE to light, after which me, Theroxenes and SeverLetterKWord started investigating the variances.

    Me and Theroxenes have built our own calculators around it.

    Theroxene's All purpose DMG calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1apJ4Lrw8dEldKTs3k8mXxjlgD5Fr0_taF1v3nMUskIc

    My PvP/Conclave damage calculator (needs some update though): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18nmqtlYkvKLEjxP7zAuQXWdHjh1sMbfdljLUWVjeqhg/edit#gid=1961249926&range=A1

    Quantizing values is really easy.

    Using IPS for example.

    Take IPS values, and divide each I,P and S by Sum of IPS (Weapon Total Damage)

    This will give you the IPS Ratios is some form like, 0.2, 0.8, 0.2 (Equal to 1)

    Take these ratio values individually and just round it to the nearest multiple of 1/16. (In Google Sheets, it's =Mround( IPSRatioValue, 1/16)

    You will get quantized IPS ratios now. Just multiply each Quantized IPS ratio value by Weapon's Total Damage, and you'll get Quantized IPS stats, which you can then normally use for calculations.

    Edit1: You can test if these new quantized IPS values varied the damage by simply calculating percentage difference between new QuantizedTotalWeaponDamage and NormalTotalWeapon Damage.

    If new total damage is -6.25% or +6.25%. Then you can tell quantization has varied the damage output notice-ably (I mean ofcourse, damage is +6.25% or -6.25% at this point).

    Edit2: Added more info/links.



    I'm interested in knowing about the 2nd error you're talking about. As it may explain the 2nd type of variance that I'm trying to eliminate in through shield damage calculations, which I've been chasing for more than a year and half.

    Theorical damages and practical damages are different for some weapons ?!

    in Players helping Players

    Posted · Edited by Triplinster

    On 2019-08-06 at 1:03 AM, Ecologue said:

    WHY ??? WHY YOU DO THAT TO ME ??? ='c I need answers to my questions, I can't sleep without answers ! please help me ! Why some weapons "bug" like this ??

     

    On 2019-08-23 at 9:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

    The upcoming PC Mainline includes a comprehensive review on Bows as a direct result from investigating / fixing this issue.

    Thanks for reporting!

    Hello,

    I've investigated this issue in the past, first in 10th June 2018 then again in 6th June 2019.

    The variances seen are exclusive to Paris series from my observation and seem to follow some trend. I'll leave the last post I made on the issue in case it helps.
     

     

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