Muse.psd

Thank you for the insights, Voltage. My participation on the forums is limited and I haven't played long enough to have witnessed a lot of these changes first-hand, so it's really interesting to get the lowdown from someone who remembers it all. You're right in that part of the entry fee here is acceptance that one can be right or wrong with opinions, observations, revelations - I also understand why they can't just do everything people propose on the forums. It's their game after all and they have all the metrics, implementation control, and forecasting tools to determine what does and doesn't make the cut. However, some of these decisions are sometimes suspect with regards to consistency with their goals, misdiagnosis of the issue, or just seemingly outright apathy for existing stuff that needs some TLC. You know better than I do about all that and yeah, it seems like a lot of the team wilfully skips out on those history lessons. They failed to manage power creep performance and address the AoE meta. What to do? Indirectly (and directly) nerf all CC frames. These old guns suck? What to do to make them better? Oh. Make 'em AoE. Glad to know I'm not alone and I've got backing from you among everyone else who remembers all the detrimental changes. For the meantime though, it does feel like fellow forum members are more eager listeners than DE sometimes. TL;DR pass the copium over here please

very quick to fix mode bugs but hands over the ears re: rolling back cc nerfs that failed to address thrax bugs!

couldn't agree more. i've said it a lot of times already but those changes should have been reverted the moment they found out the bugs still existed. i have to change my banshee build, abilities and shards because of one enemy type bugging out in a single tileset - bugs that her abilities didn't even cause roll back these changes that no one asked for but everyone using subsumed silence has to be punished for

yeap, and i don't think it's just the afk farm frames either khora & ensnare yeah but i was also thinking of rhino's stomp that can negate overguard and still hard cc those units "bringing abilities in line with how cc immunity should work" apparently means a tank frame with invincibility abilities also gets to keep his moddable hard cc against overguard while 1.2 seconds of cc on a squishy frame that relies on it for sp content gets removed why? we need only compare usage rates and available skins for rhino vs. banshee to get at least part of the answer.

i definitely agree that a more individually-tailored approach of toning CC down would have been a much better solution than a blanket cc immunity layer (which a lot of equipment can still bypass, anyways) like so many people have pointed out by now, all it does is strengthen AoE playstyles, as well as all the equipment they've told us are too powerful and/or prevalent. instead, like you said, the playerbase is punished for glitches that their equipment abilities are not responsible for. nodding my head sadly. when the approach to bugfixing constitutes hitting the off switch for things that work everywhere else, it's not bugfixing. just sweeping it under the rug at our expense. i'm glad to see lots of other people protesting banshee's cc-nerf-bugfix in other places even if they don't play her, but i can't help but feel unheard when their complaints go unaddressed, as well as those who paid real money for broken resource boosters.

i never understood this "argument." cc is cc. killing enemies is killing enemies. as much as we like to meme, killing enemies is not cc some frames rely on health/shield/invis tanking to be able to secure those kills. others rely on invulnerability and interdimensional rifts to do so. and others yet rely on cc. these changes just shift what's viable towards equipment that they have proactively been trying to curb usage rates for, so i really don't understand what their real position is

the trend of nerfing underused CC-reliant warframes with the motivation of fixing new content bugs needs to stop, especially when it fails to address the root cause. additionally, saying that it's done to bring these abilities in line with others that can't affect CC immunity doesn't really hold water either when tankier frames have got better, moddable abilities that can still apply hard CC to overguarded enemies it is sad to see that even though the nerf didn't fix anything, the decision was still made to keep the change in. it should have been rolled back when it was determined that it benefits no one since the fix didn't take, and is to the detriment of many others who need the CC for higher content. banshee now gets much more easily shredded by eximus units in the rest of the game because of a bug on a single tileset in a new mode. make it make sense. as always though, appreciate the fixes and am looking forward to more stable circuit runs

I agree with you all on every single point. I'd also like to clarify that I'm in no way calling for the likes of Volt, Wisp, Rhino, et. al to have their overguard CC capabilities be nerfed as well. It's been said many times over by many others way more experienced than me, too - overguard achieves the exact opposite of what they set out to accomplish with its implementation. Killing is definitely better than stunning them. However, when CC-reliant frames need that brief window to stay alive to even get the chance to do that burst damage, a certain amount of choice is taken away in what works and doesn't work. This is a deliberate choice in direction, and it's something strange to see in a game that has always proudly touted itself as THE playground for player choice and agency. No doubt something that'll be reflected in our 2023 Year In Review. I find it interesting that they say they don't take the changes to Magus Lockdown lightly due to its popularity yet there's no such preamble for Banshee's Silence nerf in 3.0.6 patch notes. Discovering that neither of these changes fixed the Thrax softlock from happening should have prompted them to roll back both of these nerfs that now benefit nobody and are outright detrimental to others. It's disheartening to see this sort of attitude towards unpopular picks because players who still stick with "non-meta" equipment are often among the game's most devout players. Yes, we need reworks. Yes, we need bugfixes. Yes, we need nerfs sometimes, too. What we don't need is reactionary backpedalling that removes functionality from many places in an attempt to restore it in one. Everywhere else in the game, Banshee now gets shredded in Eximus encounters where she doesn't have that moment to stun them and cast Sonar to dispatch them before they focus her down - all because of a bug on a new tileset. While I understand that the precedent for this has already been set with poor Limbo in Scarlet Spear among others, I know a lot of you are with me in saying that this should not be the norm. Bugs like these need to be addressed at the source, yes. The source was misdiagnosed, and that's fine - it happens. But keeping diagnostic changes live permanently when they know the problem lies elsewhere is and always will be a great disservice to everyone.

As of Hotfix 33.0.5 and 33.0.6, Magus Lockdown and Banshee's Silence respectively have been changed in response to Thrax Legatus enemies clipping through the floor in the Undercroft, halting progress in the new Duviri update. They are both now unable to affect enemies with crowd control immunity, including Eximus units with overguard and other VIP targets. I'm quite puzzled by this seemingly inconsistent vision of balance in Warframe, and I'm deeply worried about the design doctrine of universally nerfing equipment as a reaction to bugs in isolated instances within new content. It's not the first time we've seen it, either. - - - Permanent changes have been made to a widely-used arcane in many modes and scenarios, as well as removing the single 1.2 second survivability window against overguarded Eximus units from a squishy warframe who already has just a 0.38% play rate. These are changes that were made under the guise of balance, "bringing CC consistency in line with everything else in the game, for the greater good," when in reality, it's an attempt at bugfixing with no regard to correlation and causation. Everyone has been complaining about Thrax enemies falling through the floor and ruining a run in Duviri. Nobody has been complaining about Banshee having 1.2 seconds of stagger on her only ability to help keep her alive, nor has anyone been complaining about Magus Lockdown being able to CC certain VIP targets. The problem is not that this arcane and this subsumable ability can CC Thrax enemies. The problem is that those enemies fall through the floor and prevent progress. The icing on the cake? Hotfix notes about the changes to Banshee's 3 now have a strikethrough and an addendum stating that they were unsuccessful in addressing the problem those changes were made for, yet my testing with Banshee shows that the nerf to her ability persists. - - - Nerfs were made in order to curtail area-of-effect weapon dominance with the goal of encouraging different playstyles. Okay, fair enough. However, with the introduction of Incarnon Genesis on weapons like the Latron, we now have a semi-automatic armor-stripping Bramma. Definitely not complaining about the gun at all, but the messaging feels strange when they attempt to dissuade AoE and just add another AoE monster into the game a few months later. Additionally, the Eximus rework was introduced so they may pose more of a threat - to make us pivot to focusing those enemies down first, and finding different ways to dispatch them. What it really does is strengthen the current meta, nuke-y picks further, while also stunting new player choice and progression in dealing with them and outright invalidating a lot of the squishier frames' CC-dependent survivability picks in lategame content. - - - Warframes with pick rates hovering around or below 1% are the last ones who should be receiving nerfs, especially when those changes are made to fix bugs that their abilities did not introduce. When it is done in the name of "bringing their abilities in line" with how CC immunity should work, it feels further disingenuous when a handful of other frames (even some who have invulnerability abilities) can still CC these types of enemies. Limbo cannot stop them with interdimensional capabilities, yet Rhino can impede them by stomping real hard. A lot of real, plausible solutions have already been put forth about how to address the Thrax Legatus enemies going out-of-bounds during Duviri mission objectives. Nerfing CC game-wide in an AoE-dominant meta is not one of them. p.s. i've been loving the duviri update so far, but i just don't want the remaining 95% of the game to suffer for its temporary release bugs

so the nerfs to magus lockdown and banshee's silence are going to be rolled back, right? right?