[[Warframe Concept] Tanuki Warframe (Revival)]

On 2020-01-11 at 4:16 PM, keikogi said:

Personally just don't deal with enemy level because the scaling is silly.

   The idea of altering enemy levels as CC is one of the main reasons I liked Fox's concept. It's a really unique ability because it's meant for high level content. The idea is that she would suffer at lower level content because the power is close to useless, but at higher content she makes life really easy. Depending on circumstances, level included, certain playstyles and warframes are favored and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. At least that's how I see it.
   Transmogrify excels against grineer, but it's effects are less against other factions. Sure she cuts armored enemies by a large amount but she can't affect infested and corpus to such an extent because they don't multiply scaling health with scaling armor in all cases and they're difficult in their own ways. She also unable to affect all enemies because of nullifiers.

   Also in regards to enemy scaling I personally believe that dealing with enemy levels is fine. Players already cut EHP the way you say with corrosive, viral, and magnetic or shattering impact. Cutting enemy levels doesn't make much difference to me because chances are you've already fought them at that level before.
   DE also has level scaling as an issue they're looking to fix soon though maybe not since it was said awhile ago and plans change. If scaling is made less of an issue then dealing with a level changing ability would be easier to come to terms with.

   I'm going to lower the level reduction, but tossing the idea of level reduction CC is the last thing I'd like to do with the concept. 

[[Warframe Concept] Tanuki Warframe (Revival)]

Sorry for the super late response. I was typing up a massive post and was worried that it would be erased if I typed here. I've had that happen to my posts before so i didn't wanna risk it.

On 2019-12-03 at 3:17 PM, keikogi said:

I just confused your passion with insecurity. You justified it so much that I tough you are trying to hard to justify something that is fine ( frame about mythological creature , perfectly reasonable with just that ). So I was like " knock it off, no need to worry about that ".

Also man there some truly astonishing concpets in this forum. From entire threads dedicated to enemy factions ( the Sentient and grineer one are amazing) , weapon concepts and some unique visually and mechanically warframes. Even I threw my hat on the ring and think I got a few things right ( a suport warframe that has to actively play to be able to support and a summoner frame tha both scales and doesn't enable auto play. I wish DE copied homeworks more often.

Sorry about that, It's just making a warframe like "Tanuki" with that design is kind of inviting people to take it the wrong way and I'm insecure about myself in general so it kinda just came out. But I really do like to spotlight just how much support I can put behind a warframe like "Tanuki". I'll try to avoid that in the future but it's a bad habit of mine.

On 2019-12-03 at 3:17 PM, keikogi said:

Energy cost are meaninless for a true veteran. Like I have a gamer mouse I can just macro the one button to cast use a energy restore and them use the skill. Also arcane energy and 175% energy eficiency exist so unless the skill is literely unusable at base ( see Grendel enemy storage cost ) you can't balance it by rasing the energy cost. My full opnion on the energy system is here.

There os a EHP calcultor using a enemy level slider on the wikia you can use that to help you refine your balance. Also after second consideration the skill is a debuff with means it won't affect the newer elite enemies , so it can't be that strong. Even sonar with it's isane damage mutiplier is not enough to make banshee broken in most of the game content.

Edit: energy drains are way more detrimental than what they initially seen because you can't regenerate energy while channelling.

So after second consideration would the energy drain and transmogrify ability be ok as they are now? Or do I still need to make some edits to the kit?

[A Shot at Endgame Suggestions "Plagues of Yggdrasil" Raidjack Concept]

{ Warning }

Spoiler

   Another raid. If you dislike raid concepts then might wanna stop reading because mine get long. I dive into the stats, abilities, tilesets, and more for my concepts. As always these are not made for newer players or with solo play in mind. This is a co op game and this is what will be considered the hardest content in the game. This doesn't mean I don't care for solo players but this was a sacrifice I made to achieve the difficulty for this raid.
   "Plagues of Yggdrasil" features enemies with trillions of EHP. Remember you have 8 players at your disposal here and infested almost never use armor. The bosses of the raid need this much health to even stand a chance. The tridelon can be done multiple times in one night by a single player and those have 10M rounded EHP not counting the time it takes to remove shields. Make the most of the 8 frames you're given. That being siad these stats ARE NOT FINAL. I only make the stats the way they are to get a point across as they are probably way offbalanced and need to be tweaked to not be such a massive bullet sponge. However they will have far and away more health then your average boss as they're inspired by WoW raid bosses.
   By design "Plagues of Yggdrasil" is not short. However I've used a system suggested by someone *forgot who sorry* where missions are fragmented in such a way where players can cash in or risk it all and keep going for better rewards after each mission like how endless missions work. Players need to go deeper for juicy rewards and given that this is a high difficulty raid nobody should have a fear of players leaving early. The vast majority of parties will take place between friends in calls, clans working together, or recruited parties, so host migration and leaving unexpectedly should almost never be an issue.
   "Plagues of Yggdrasil"'s difficulty will focus on horde content, bosses, and puzzles bosses highlighting railjack and archwing gameplay. There will be aspects involving mechanical game play and beefy normal enemies but neither to the extent of the "Raid on Nightwatch" or "Revenge of the Sergeant". While you can expect horde clearing warframes to be seen, bosses still are a part of this so remember to pick wisely.
   I strive to make my raids unique from one another in regards to unique difficulty making a special experience for each raid. However be warned my difficulty is NOT meant to justify an easier normal raid. The base raid still challenges even the best, but if you really want to shoot for the stars, the added difficulty is meant to make if feel almost impossible. Optional Difficulty is not needed for the best rewards, but it will give you more of said best reward should you be skilled enough to complete it.
   Lastly, this raid will heavily, HEAVILY focus on community made concepts. I believe the community is an bottomless well of ideas drawing from everything imaginable for concepts and it still goes unappreciated. So for anyone who reads this, please support the initial creator of these concepts.

{-{ OPTIONAL DIFFICULTY }-}

Spoiler

  "Plagues of Yggrasil" features dragon keys as it's optional difficulty. This doesn't mean they're required, but they give you more rewards if you complete the raid with the vaults opened. During the raid there will be a total of 4 Vaults similar to the Derelict Missions, each will require a different ANCIENT Dragon Key. Players are not capable of equiping all of the keys, nor would anyone want to given what they do. Being greedy may cause your entire team to have a chain reaction of chaos.
   While there are 4 doors, there will be a total of 8 keys, for 8 players. 4 new keys have been added and these ANCIENT versions are raid exclusive, and are designed to crush you as players should you not be prepared to take on the trial."Vault Runs", or the 8 key runs, will need extensive planning and experience or you will be doomed to fail. This should realisticly be the hardest thing in the game to complete and will satisfy that desire to complete something difficult.
   This difficulty is not needed for the best reward. They will increase the amount of rewards you can obtain from the raid, but they are not needed.

Spoiler

Ancient Decaying Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key //  100 Void Traces // 10 Control Modules // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 90% Shields
Holder cannot recover shields themselves.
If Holder goes down all players have all armor removed for 30s.
Ancient Bleeding Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 10 Control Modules // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 90% health
Holder loses 2.5% Health per second. Bleeding key will kill
If Holder goes down all players lose 1 revive.
Ancient Hobbled Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 10 Control Modules // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 75% Speed
Holder loses all mobility only being able to walk or run.
If Holder goes down, all players are heavily slowed for 30s
Ancient Extinguished Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 10 Control Modules // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 75% Damage.
Holder cannot deal critical damage.
If Holder goes down all players cannot deal any damage for 30 seconds.
Ancient Apathy Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces //  5 Neural Sensors // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 90% Max Energy
Holder takes 400% longer to cast abilities.
If Holder goes down all abilities are removed and nullified for 30s.
Ancient Encumbered Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 10 Control Modules // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder loses 50% modding space on all equipped items.
Holder cannot use gear and can't pick up any item from the floor.
If Holder goes down all players lose all ammunition and energy.
Ancient Deranged Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 5 Neural Sensors // 1 Orokin Cipher)
Holder has 70% reduced accuracy
Holder cannot see their UI at all.
If Holder goes down, all players can be hit by friendly fire for 30s.
Ancient Empathizing Dragon Key (50,000 credits // Orokin Derelict Assassinate Key // 100 Void Traces // 5 Neural Sensors // 1 Orokin Cell)
Holder takes 20% of the damage their allies do anywhere on the map.
Holder loses energy equal to abilities cast whenever allies cast abilities.
If Holder goes down all players lose access to operators, their passives, and their companions for 30s, including all set mod benefits and arcanes.

 

 

 

{-{-{ Trial: Plagues of Yggdrasil }-}-}
(8 Person Railjack Squad)
*Inspired by StallorD's raid concept*

Spoiler

 

   Yggdrasil was once a beacon of hope. An Ancient Orokin Tower far beyond outer terminus and safe from the old war, housing life from before the orokin's tampering with the system. In case things were to go wrong, Yggdrasil could bring back life back to any planet and provide the original flora needed to jumpstart ecosystems. During the old war, the tower was forced into the Derelict, but recently it's removal was not noticed and it's return brought new terror to the system. This tower is famous among New Loka but due to their inability to locate such a place it was classified as myth.
   Nearing the end of the Great Plague, the infested were pushed back. Some infested spores escaped into space and came in contact with Yggdrasil forming small tumors. Over time it blossomed, and consumed all life in the tower tainting the last traces of natural life in the system. Yggdrasil Station became a "home base" to the infestation, growing potent breeds of horrific monstrosities over centuries of Isolation. Yggdrasil will very often speak to the warframe, not the tenno, during the raid.

   The blueprint for this raid can be purchased in the market for 1,000,000 Credits and requires a single R10 Intrinsic to access. Crafting should use Railjack Resources.

Mission 1 LvL 130 // (Earth) 0 Vaults

Spoiler

   The system is in chaos and the tenno must act to prevent the Spead of the infestation. Reports are coming from all factions and requesting help from any and all active tenno. Your group scrambled together and acts to save the system, preserving the balance.

   The Corpus, Grineer, and the syndicates are all working to contain the infested threat and the tenno must act. The squad is randomly split into two groups and each group must destroy hives across the system. A total of 3 Hives per planet and 3 planets per group. Hives are guarded by infested tendrils which go into a frenzy and spawn more frequently the more the hives are destroyed. Each Hive is protected by 1 Phorid Golem. Once the hives on one planet are destroyed players must move on. 
   To traverse planets, squads must use a network of void portals. To access said portals players must escort an NPC that spawns after all hives are destroyed. If the NPC dies before they can set up the device another NPC spawns. Once all the hives are dealt with Cephalon Cy recalls all the tenno into the Railjack for the next portion of the mission.

Spoiler

Phorid Golems Phorid Golems are the new boss version to Phorid using the cyst eximus concept shown in devstream 87. This general idea had lots of controversy but as a boss mechanic exclusive It could work. Depending on the faction being invaded by the infestation, it can either be a giant leaper, or a giant charger covered in cysts. For each player in the mission there will be 3 Phorid Pods in the boss room. This would make phorid's fight much more challenging without the need of a heavy boss rework.
   In normal missions they are not normal spawns so they won't be everywhere like our eximus varient idea. Rather they, like the juggernaught, is a rare spawn but maybe more common then the juggernaught like ever 5 waves or 5 minutes 1 spawns. 

   In the midst of the chaos, Vay Hek is determined to exterminate Iron Wake. The Steel Meridian are attempting to evacuate Iron Wake, but are under attack by Vay Hek's ships. Caught between the infested and Vay hek's forces the Steel Meridian's only option was to jump their capitol ship to Earth and escort the defectors out, but they need assistance. The Steel Meridian know how to stop the infestation but if they're wiped out then there can be no counter attack, protect them from Vay Hek and the Infested.

   Players must defend the Steel Meridian capital ship from Vay Hek's troops as he aims to destroy fleeing refugees and defectors. If it is destroyed the mission fails. Tenno must also divide and form an away team, sending them to the surface for a defection. They will deploy via archwing and fly down to earth, fighting grineer archwing and railjack enemies on the way.
   Occasionally in space, a transport carrying defector prisoners will appear and a minor pursuit mission will activate. You can ignore them but it progresses the mission faster if they are rescued. Players on the surface can activate archwing at any time and fly skyward to enter space combat, likewise they can fly back down to enter earth's defection. 

   The away team on earth will suffer armor degradation and if their armor % reaches 0 they lose control of their warframe. If you lose control, you must attack and defeat it with your operator or have it defeated by an ally. To avoid this Ordis has deployed a series of life support towers marked as A, B and C. Defectors will rally to the towers and heal, but they must be powered. Power Cells can only be obtained from manics, which attack VERY frequently. Powered towers will heal defectors that come close. Interacting with towers recovers armor. Towers that are powered emit a shield neutralizing infested spores similar to infested salvage vaporizers.
   Defectors reaching extraction fill a ship to be extracted. Some players must escort them back and ensure they aren't blasted out of flight while they make their way through space to the steel meridian capitol ship. If 3 ships are destroyed or 10 defectors are killed on the surface the mission fails. Once all defectors have been escorted to safety all players must exit the railjack and the ship will warp away as players make their way to earth. Players will force the portal open using a steel meridian Torsion Beam Device and protect themselves from the incoming onslaught of infested for 5 minutes. After this Mission 1 is complete.

   Players are given the choice to take the rewards and leave or continue, risking the rewards and going further for more. If players leave they may not start another raid that day.

 

REWARDS
1 Plague Vial Blueprint
100,000 Credits

Mission 2 LvL 140 // (Derelict) 0 Vaults

Spoiler

 

   The portal did not take you to the source, but it placed you nearby an infested tower. Ordis is in awe as he struggles to recall the tower's name, calling it Yggdrasil. Cressa Tol scoffs at the tower and wonders how the new loka would handle the legendary pure station being overtaken by infestation. Cephalon Cy warps the Railjack into the void by tracking the tenno signals and all players enter the railjack as the steel meridian set up. You will have to fight your way to Yggdrasil. The steel meridian have installed something on the railjack to prevent any further plague stars from launching.

   Players must fly the captain's Railjack to the tower. Defend it from enemy fire and avoid  Infested defenses
   "Hive Masses" will trap the railjack like a zeplin in a swirling damage over time field of infested spores. They must be entered like crewships, but you must destroy 3 tumors and scan the hive. The railjack must then dome charge the Hive mass causing it to blow up. 
   Infested Swarms will also attempt to jam and gum down systems such as guns, engines, reactors, shield arrays, etc etc by attaching themselves to the ship. Leave the railjack and exterior of the infestation. You must then hack a terminal in the engine room to restart the lost systems.
   Spore Masses will be floating around and are massive infested mines which deal crippling damage to the Railjack Hull causing multiple ruptures and sending the railjack reeling backwards.
   Space Wyrms are similar to Starcraft Nydus Worms and shoot out from asteroids and pierce the inside of the railjack continuesly vomiting infested into the railjack. Kill them before you suffocate in the railjack from spores. You can kill them by shooting them in archwing. Space Wyms will draw the railjack in like a fish on a hook.

   The Railjack needs 250 Flux Energy and it can deploy a massive Zeppelin Web capturing the entire station in a Zeppelin Web designed by the Steel Meridian. The tower's systems are weakening the web, so players must enter Yggdrasil from 3 separate orokin dry dock and disable the systems.
   Once players have entered the 3 docks, a defense begins. This defense is not completed by waves or time, but it's endless until the correct password has been put into 3 consoles. 1 Console will reside in each dock that must be defended. Players must search the orokin station for a 12 symbol cipher which must be put into all 3 terminals. Players must find these symbols by traversing the derelict tile set by using Esophages to access other parts of the tower. Around the tower are small, scannable, tablets which show a clue to the cipher.
   Careful, there are a variety of new infested blocking the way and you don't know what they're capable of.

Spoiler

• Shamblers are walking grineer corpses being controlled by the infestation. These corpses still have guns and come with reduced armor from base lancers. Shamblers also will attempt to take cover if possible. When they die, they release a horrifying groan and with a bone shattering crack the corpse splits creating a grineer crawler. Grineer crawlers will latch onto tenno dealing damage over time and slowing them.
  • Idea comes from Organic Gear's "Stroller" Infested Enemy Concept.
• Sluaghs are similar to Shamblers in appearance but have more in common with leapers hanging on walls and vomit infested bile from above leaving pools of virulent acid applying corrosive damage. Sluaghs have slightly more armor then lancers but less than troopers. If players tread too close they're grabbed and tossed across the room.
  • Idea comes from Suidice's "Climber" Infested Enemy Concept.
  • Sluaghs means host in irish, I shouldn't need to say more there.
• Hive Eyes are rare infested rollers leaving trails of tar along the ground. Infested will run faster along the tar. While a Hive Eye is within 35m of your frame operator mode in inoperable. Hive Eyes have a much higher chance at spawning as eximus.
  • Hive Eyes are the infested version of Crows for Odin.
• Horrids are infested bombards which use the Torid and come in 3 variations.
  • Horrid Launchers which shoots seeking toxic missiles.
  • Horrid Morters release flaming tar from their backs like morters
  • Horrid Sparks launch missiles that create a corrosive cloud on impact.
• Insetik Queens are ancient infested biologists at Yggdrasil before it was infested. Queens emanate an aura which degrades armor at the top right of the screen. Queens also release swarms of flies clouding enemy vision and protecting allies. Queens are very heavily armored and move quickly. When low they can burrow away to regenerate. Killing a queen releases a horrific shriek killing all her minions. Insetik Queens must be killed via parazon, going down like thralls.
  • Corpse Maggots erupt from corpses nearby the Insetik Queen
  • Idea comes from a combination of SC Queens, MrPigman's Insetik Warframe Concept
• Revenants are Infested Manics that quickly crawl along the walls. They can turn completly invisible and initiate quick time events where players can force the revent off by spamming X. When in the quick time event they have pained coughing laughter. Revenants can teleport to surprise attack players and shoot webs that slow players. When near death they glow a bright red and attempt to suicide bomb players.
  • Idea coming from N4n0-1805 and their Infested Manic Enemy concept.
• Aesir Ancients are evolved and larger ancients with more abilities. All of them are armored, spit serrated spikes, and have more HP.
  • Aesir Etir, Provides complete toxic immunity for all allies in range and they toss infested bombs. On death they birth new infested.
  • Aesir Healer, Provides regeneration and healing to all allies in range, they take damage in their allies place. On death they birth new infested.
  • Aesir Disruptor, Provides 90% ability damage resistance and 300% health as Bioshielding to all allies in range. On death they birth new infested.
  • The Aesir were the gods of Norse mythos, or in our case the ancients.
• Nephilim Chargers are large ancient chargers using ,formerly, perfect grineer bodies found in Yggdrasil. They are heavily armored and use infested sinew. Killing one releases corrosive clouds.
  • Nephilim are the sons of god, or in our case the children of false gods, the orokin.
• Ash Behemoth- Ash Behemoths are large, speedy mobile versions of the juggernaut grown from Corrupted Moa but are overall more fragile. They have huge chunks of bioshield and innate 75% Damage resistance everywhere except their mouth. Ash Behemoths charge players similar to juggernauts. Ash Behemoths summon Horrids, Slaughs, and Shamblers to their aid. When killed, their head detaches from it's body and attacks.
  • Idea comes from Marco-Hasmann's "Infested Behemoth" enemy concept.

    Once the 3 ciphers are complete, the zeppelin bubble completely locks in all infested. All tenno will gather at the center of the station and take an elevator down to deal with what Cy thinks is a massive infested. Killing it will secure this floor, allowing it to be used as a starting point for the steel meridian to advance from and assault the infestation. Once down, you discover that it's a massive Hemocyte Cy has designated as the Plague Hemocyte. Destroy it.

Spoiler

Plague Hemocyte has 750,000,000 Health in Phase 1 // 250,000,000 health for each head.
-Heads will regenerate in 5 minutes, but will have 1/2 health, then 1/4 health, etc etc.
-While fighting Plague Hemocyte, Yggdrasil Tendrils appear to kill players and must constantly be dealt with.
   CORPUS
   -Spits out toxic bombs afflicting enemies with viral and toxin damage.
   -Can scream to create massive energy waves similar to scrambas and combo which nullify abilities.
   -Spits out spawning pods creating ancient enemies.
      -Pods will drop ammunition
   GRINEER
   -Can swing it's scythe around which will instantly kill players if hit. Avoid at all costs.
   -Can release a barrage of missiles to carpet bomb specific areas in heavy toxin damage.
      -Targeted areas will glow red in advance to warn players if the area is going to be bombed.
      -Targeted area will be affected by napalm after the bombing for 10s
   -Capable of releasing a series of grappling hooks from it's mouth and drags players in for a kill
   INFESTED
   -Grants Disruption and Healer buff to all allied infested nearby.
   -Spits an arc of sticky bombs at enemies in range.
   -While INFESTED is alive Plague Hemocyte will release infested pods when damaged.
Plague Hemocyte has 1,500,000,000 Health in Phase 2 // 500,000,000 Health for each head.
-The lower one head is compared to the others the more damage resistance that head will gain. Switch heads constantly to deal the most damage.
-Heads will regenerate in 5 minutes, but will have 1/2 health, then 1/4 health, etc etc
-While fighting Plague Hemocyte, Yggdrasil Tendrils appear to kill players and must constantly be dealt with.
-Plague Hemocyte boss arena has 4 unkillable giant tendrils which grab players and crush them to death. If a play is grabbed, you must shoot the tendril.
   -Grabbed players will have a marker on them.
   CORPUS
   -Spits out toxic bombs afflicting enemies with viral and toxin damage.
   -Shoots out electrical orbs that seek players out like jordas. Shoot with amps to destroy.
   -While CORPUS is alive each step creates massive fusion waves knocking players over.
   -While CORPUS is alive ground pound attacks emit massive fusion waves knocking players over.
   -Spits out spawning pods creating ancient enemies.
      -Pods will drop ammunition
   GRINEER
   -Can swing it's scythe around which will instantly kill players if hit. Avoid at all costs.
   -Can release a barrage of missiles to carpet bomb specific areas in heavy toxin damage.
      -Targeted areas will glow red in advance to warn players if the area is going to be bombed.
      -Targeted area will be affected by napalm after the bombing for 10s
   -Capable of releasing a series of grappling hooks from it's mouth and drags players in for a kill
   -While GRINEER is alive ground pound attacks affect all enemies nearby with electrical damage like power fists
   INFESTED
   -Grants Disruption and Healer buff to all allied infested nearby.
   -Spits an arc of sticky bombs at enemies in range.
   -While INFESTED is alive Plague Hemocyte will release infested pods when damaged.
   -While INFESTED is alive Plague Hemocyte releases toxic gas trails when moving like jordas.
   -While INFESTED is alive all heads will slowly regenerate.

Plague Hemocyte has a 5% Chance to drop a Lost Arts mod.

   Once the Plague Hemocyte is defeated, this part of the raid is over and players will be given the opportunity to claim their current rewards and leave, or continue and risk the rewards to go further. If players leave they may not start another raid that day.

 

REWARDS
1 Random Corrupted Mod
15 Hemocyte Cystolith
(10% Hemocyte Articula)
100,000 Credits

Mission 3 LvL 150 // (Derelict) 0 Vaults

Spoiler

 

   The Steel Meridian have noticed a massive infested worm emerged from the bottom of the tower and coiled around, consuming the infested biomass. The frightening thing is, it was spotted regurgitating infested flyers. It also created a special type of spore that is weakening the zeppelin web, if left unchecked it could melt the entire web and the system will be put at risk yet again. Codename Nidhogg, the worm is a threat to the mission and must be dealt with before proceeding up the tower.

   This part of the raid is a giant open area of ground movement and archwing transition points and parkour areas using target panels to navigate the area. The Nidhogg is a giant worm and will swim through the tiles and attacks unsuspecting tenno from all angles. The arena has 6 power stations fueled by a TENNO's void energy. Power the stations to activate purification devices within the tower, reducing the nidhogg's damage resistance the more the generator is powered. Power degrades over time and must be maintained.

Spoiler

Nidhogg has 2,500,000,000 Health and 250,000 Shields
-Shields must be destroyed by operator amps before health can be damaged. These can be damaged even if it's not vulnerable.
-After 500,000,000 health Nidhogg becomes invulnerable and a player must leap inside of it's mouth similar to riding the ropololyst and scan 1 of 5 hearts. Players in the Railjack must shoot a dome charge at the scanned heart to destroy it allowing it to be damaged further. This must be repeated until all 5 hearts are gone and the nidhogg is destroyed.
-Nidhogg will eat sap to rapidly recover health and Shields
   -Cy will alert you to nearby sap and mark it.
   -Destroy sap with operator amps or dome charges.
-Nidhogg has 100% damage resistance unless stations are powered.
   -Eyes along the body always have 25% less damage resistance than the body.
-Nidhogg is immune to any and all forms of CC as it is a giant GIANT creature.
-Nidhogg's is supported by a variety of infested enemies.
   -Players will constantly be harassed by Revenants on the ground level and they catch players in webs.
   -Nidhogg is aided by burrowed enemies and regurgitates archwing enemies to attack the railjack..
   -Nidhogg's battle area is supported by Yggdrasil's tendrils which attack the tenno.
-Nidhogg has the ability to spit out dozens of spikes similar to phorid, seeking out players and dealing heavy damage.
-Nidhogg's spores will constantly degrade armor, Ordis frequently deploys life support towers which will lower spore saturation, increasing armor.
   -If spores are above 70% all players will permanently be affected with swarm particle effect until it is lowered.
   -If spores at 100% players begin to rapidly suffer heavy toxin damage.
   -Support towers generate Dome Charges for the ship.
-Nidhogg occasionally emits a screech shutting down ALL railjacks systems requiring a hacking restart at lower engineering.
   -All systems include regeneration, foundry, turrets, flight, lights, and more.
-Once the Nidhogg reaches 35% Health, Yggdrasil will grow 3 hives containing 18 tumors which must be destroyed, 6 for each hive. After this Nidhgg can continue to be damaged.

Nidhogg has a 7.5% Chance to drop a Lost Art

   Once the Nidhogg is destroyed, this part of the raid is over and players will be given the opportunity to claim their current rewards and leave, or continue and risk the rewards to go further. If players leave they may not start another raid that day.

 

REWARDS
1 Random Corrupted Mod
1000 Pustrels
(10% Nidhogg Articula)
50,000 Credits

Mission 4 LvL 160 // (Derelict) 0 Vaults

Spoiler

 

   The entire lower base level of Yggdrasil Station is secure and locked down. Cy suggests activating or destroying the station's Neural Sentry as all towers are created with a safety precaution. If the infested manage to assimilate the sentry with a mutalist strain like with jordas, the tower can warp away and the mission could be a complete failure. Access the higher levels and seek out the sentry. Find the grand elevator and climb. This elevator tile is BIG.

   This phase requires players to work between Archwing and Elevator Gameplay. At the start of the mission all players are in archwing and must split into two groups. Group 1 must land and escort a steel meridian operative through the infestation to a massive elevator. Once they reach the elevator the operative deploys several vaporizers which must be activated causing armor to begin degrading, but the vaporizer can recover it. Power the vaporizer with Anti Serum you've crafted in your gear wheel. Once the Vaporizers are active the Elevator tema is attacked by hordes of infested, both archwing and normal which try to destroy the vaporizers. Pods will also fall from above, which can be shot to reduce pressure. The longer the elevator is active the higher in level the infested will become. You must ensure the vaporizers are always fully powered to protect the 3 terminals. If 2 are destroyed, you cannot rotate open and closed doors for your other group and you'll be forced to quit.
   On the archwing side, players must enter a maze of narrow pipes without a minimap. These pipes have 2 challenges. Similar to the underwater Uranus Spy Vault, these pipes have electrical currents which will zap you to death if your timing is off. The tunnel also has "friendship doors" without panels. The elevator squad must activate 2 of the 3 panels simultaneously on the elevator to rotate which doors are open and which are closed. There are also stationary respawnable infested turrets similar to Railjack Cannon Batteries but infested.

   The objective for this mission is to solve a puzzle in the pipes to fully activate the elevator. In the pipes there are 7 orokin ciphers using 3 symbols each labeled Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, and Golf. The ciphers must be activated in the proper sequence in order for the elevator to reach the topmost floor of Yggdrasil. If the sequence is incorrect, then the sequence for the remaining ciphers is re-randomized to a different password. Communication between the elevator team and the archwing team is required because you must rotate which doors are open and which are not.
   Every time an Insetik Queen is mercy killed, players are murmur'ed hints to the order of the ciphers. However the symbols themselves are written all around the pipe system and must be found. Players on both ends must work together to discover the correct cipher order/sequence and cipher combination.
   Once the correct sequence of ciphers is activated, the elevator finally activates and goes upwards. Players in the pipes must fly through a portal to regroup with their friends in the elevator.

   Once the top of the station has been reached the vaporizers eject 3 data mass units. Players must search for the hidden Neural Sentry. Once discovered players must place all of the charged data mass on the door, which is blocked by infested mass, and wait for the vaporizer to burn through the dense infestation. This will continue for 15 minutes as hordes lead by dozens of juggernauts lay siege to the door. The timer can be sped up by pouring energy into the data mass.
   Once the door has been melted away players will enter the room and find a unique juggernaut called Ratatoskr. This creature is far bigger then the Juggernaut behemoth and looks much closer in appearance to the original juggernaut concept art if possible. This battle area has 4 pillars with rotating lasers and vents which emit lethal toxic procs. Infested pods will also constantly be falling from the ceiling. There are also 4 Ash Behemoths which will aid Ratatoskr.

Spoiler

Ratatoskr has 8,000,000 Health and 6,500 Armor
-Ratatoskr is immune to all damage unless hit on weak spots.
    -Weak Spots means areas which can be damaged, these areas cannot take critical damage.
-Ratatoskr can release 3 types of roars which will be announced by Cephalon Ordis.
   -Crippling Roar disables all active warframe powers and causes a massive loss of energy over 15s.
   -Inspiring Roar oar causes all enemies to be healed and given a disruption shield for 15s.
   -Numbing Roar roar stuns all warframes briefly and causes increases reload time by 300% for 15s.
-Ratatoskr can slam down on the ground creating a wave of infested slime, slowing tenno hit and tenno who walk over it.
-Ratatoskr can grab and crush players, downing them instantly.
   -Grab has a 2.5 second broadcast, so it's easy to avoid.
-Ratatoskr leaves a trail of acidic blood in it's wake when below 70% Health.
-Ratatoskr will charge his enemies constantly creating a massive fusion blast knocking down all nearby players.
   -If players hop onto him like the ropololyst, they can angle his charge to a pillar exposing a weak spot.

Each Behemoth has 1,500,000,000 Bioshield, 50,000,000 Health, and 1,000 Armor.
-Each Ash Behemoth is a different Eximus Type.

Ratatoskr has a 10% Chance to drop a Lost Art

   After Ratatoskr has been defeated players may access the Neural Sentry. To access it players must kneel on special pads. The Neural Sentry is now active and this part of the raid is over. Players will be given the opportunity to claim their current rewards and leave, or continue and risk the rewards to go further. If players leave they may not start another raid that day.

 

REWARDS
1 Behemoth Gauntlet Part
3 Random Pherliac Pod Parts
50,000 Credits

Mission 5 LvL 180 // (Derelict Vault) 4 Vaults

Spoiler

 

   With the Neural Sentry reactivated, The Steel Meridian fled leaving the sentry to exterminate the infestation. However the infestation already ran too deep. Long before, the Neural Sentry sealed the infestation away to prevent it from taking over the systems, and locked the infestation within the tower's sentries "vessel" called a Valkyrie. The Valkyrie had became the queen and prison of the infested in Yggdrasil, Isolating the infestation. Neither the neural sentry nor the hive mind could have full control over the tower, vying for control within the Valkyrie. The hive's vessel must be destroyed to crush the infestation, destroying the Neural Sentry in the process.
   Cy has designated the target vessel as code name Eir, based off the Neural Sentry designed for Yggdrasil. Yggdrasil's Neural Sentry was specially designed after Eir, an elite dax who was part of the Valkyrie Squadron who were deployed alongside railjack crews. Eir was closely in tune with nature, and to honor this dax Yggdrasil's Neural Sentry was made with her ideals in mind. Neural Sentry Eir was coded for the cultivation and preservation of the origin systems natural flora in case a mass extinction event. The tower was also an archive on ancient sicknesses and cures.
   If detected, the infestation would've been dealt with immediately. but the technocyte was intelligent, and evaded detection, slowly gaining a foothold in the tower until it was too late. Eir refused to teleport into the void or activate cascade bombs, as it would destroy the flora. The sentry preserved data and plants within the vaults, then lured the hive mind into a possible vessel, the Valkyrie. With the Infested's primary consciousness locked inside Yggdrasil, the infested became aimless and slowly left terminus, until rediscovered by Dr. Tengus. Slowly, the sentry was beginning to lose itself, and began sending plague stars across the system as a twisted cry for help.
   There are 4 vaults located near the top of the tree. Each vault is covered by ancient technology and only certain keys can be used. When opened you will find an artifact, and Ordis will talk about how this is an archive, and a safehouse, for flora keeping the infestation from absorbing the natural 

   Find and Destroy the Infested Valkyrie. At the top of the tree is a maze of past and present infested versions of Yggdrasil's halls which will be the main focus of this battle. Hidden in the halls are the 4 Vaults. Find and claim them at your own risk because they will affect you for the entire boss fight.
   The Neural Sentry Eir has been consumed by the infestation. Players will have to find and fight her in a maze of halls filled with orokin traps, infested enemies, and tears in void time letting players travel forwards and backwards in time. There are 8 Boss areas where Eir can be found in when she retreats to, 4 in the past and 4 in the future. Lanterns are also carried by Insetik Queens hiding in the halls 3 in the past and 3 in the future. Eir and enemies can only be damaged if she is within a lantern's radius which can be sustained with a players energy.

Spoiler

Eir has 2,000,000,000 Robotic Health and 50,000 Bioshield.
-Eir's shields must be broken by operators before she is vulnerable to damage.
-Eir suffers .25X more damage per status effect applied.
-Eir is immune to critical damage.
-Every 20% health suffered she will tear open a void rift and slip into a different time to recover health while out of combat.
-Eir will occasionally howl causing all warframes to rebel against the tenno's control. Subdue and re-transference to regain control.
-Players too close to Eir will be grabbed and infested. Subdue and re-transference to regain control.

After Eir has been "killed" she loses control and the infestation takes over. She will twist into an Infested Valkyrie with wings before teleporting all players back in time to the Nidhogg area. You must defeat her and the nidhogg at the same time. Players must also defeat her in less time then they defeated the Nidhogg if they want to return to their time,  if not they fail the mission. Only she needs to be defeated, you can ignore the nidhogg.

Eir now has 4,000,000,000 Robotic Health and 100,000 Bioshield.
-Eir is Invincible unless her shields are broken by operators
-Eir suffers .25X more damage per status effect applied.
-Dome Charges stun her for 30 seconds.
-Eir can create large clouds of spores disabling archwings and railjack systems if passed through.
-Players too close to Eir will be grabbed and infested. Subdue and re-transference to regain control.
-Eir creates a massive void storm. All players are permenantly affected by radiation unless within vaporizers.
-Eir will sometimes fly to a vaporizer and attempt to destroy it with a charge time. Stun her with a dome charge to prevent it.
-Eir will occasionally howl causing all warframes to rebel against the tenno's control. Subdue and re-transference to regain control.
-Eir will capture downed players and resurrect them as a zombie preventing revival until killed.
   -Killing the zombie allows the player to revive their warframe.
   -If all players are infested the mission will fail.
-Eir's presence on the battlefield will cause all infested rapidly regenerate and take 25% less damage.

Eir Has a 25% Chance to drop a Lost Art

   Eir howls in pain and the void energy created from Eir collapses in on the tower transporting all players to the very top of Yggdrasil. Mercy kill her and the mission completes. You instead decide to take on the infestation into your warframe, which may have side effects, but restores the Neural Sentry to it's former self. The raid is complete and you cannot run another until the next day.

 

REWARDS
Gain 1 Lost Memory for the warframe used in the raid (33.33% chance for +1 random Lost Memory for every vault unlocked)
(+1 Random Corrupted Mod for every vault discovered)
(10% Valkyrie Articula)
50,000 Credits

 

 

{-{-{-{ RAID REWARDS }-}-}-}
These rewards are all completely made up and are fun to come up with, which is why I present multiple options. As shown above, there are many rewards in this raid, but this portion will focus on mods, weapons, and the Plague Vials. None of these will be what you actually play for, that's the forgotten memories. But these can be sold for platinum and can be played over and over for. The part I most enjoyed was the Lost Arts, as they are essentially parazon augments. If anyone has suggestions or criticism, feel free to share, even if it means tearing down the rewards.

Spoiler

 

Weapon

Spoiler

Behemoth Gauntlets (Fist)
Behemoth Gauntlets augment their wearer with enhanced strength to rip their opponents to shreds with raw, vile power.
(Heavy Attacks send the claws into a frenzy causing them to grow and enhance critical damage by 1 critical tier causing normal damage to crit, yellows to orange, etc etc, for 10s.)

24H Behemoth Gauntlets // Furax Wraith // 6 Mutagen Mass // 10 Infected Palpators // 10 Chitinous Husk // 100,000 Credits

Attack Speed 0.95 // Attack Range 1.35 // Attack Damage 176
Blocking Angle 85^o // Combo Duration 8s // Follow Through 110%
Critical Chance 12% // Crit Multiplier 2.25X // Status Chance 26%
53 Impact // 53 Slash // 70 Corrosive Damage

Slam Impact Damage 528 // Slam Attack Radial Damage 176 // Slam Radius 8.0
Slide Attack Damage 528

HEAVY Impact Damage: 880 // Heavy Wind Up 0.8s
HEAVY Slam Attack Damage 880 // HEAVY Slam Radial Damage 704 // HEAVY Slam Radius 9.0m

Ok so this weapon was developed with the intent of it being a super unique weapon based around heavy attacks along with various other features separating it from other fist weapons. One being it's the only status fist weapon, it's the only fist weapon that leaves out a physical damage type, it's the only weapon with a unique follow through, and it's got a longer combo duration by default. This alone should provide players ampule fun with the weapon taking a big spin on traditional melee mechanics fist players are used to. This weapon is meant to be a rival the the tekko prime and the ankyros prime.
The idea is also based off this picture developed by Tenedrenox under the name "Beheth and Lephas". It's somewhat different as theres no sword and it's a fist weapon, but the general concept spawned from it.

Corrupted Mods
I am only writing down new corrupted mods. These are suggestions and can be kept exclusive to the raid or not. The vaults are simply a stage for difficulty to obtain greater rewards, and corrupted mods are just something that comes with the vaults naturally. There are better rewards but here are some I think would be interesting to add, especially with the new focus on railjack and archwing.

Spoiler

8✰ Fighting Flight (Warframe) <14 Zenurik>
On Heavy attack hit gain 10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% movement speed for 6s > 8s > 10s > 12s > 14s > 16s > 18s > 20s > 22s
-4% > -8% > 12% > 16% > 20% > 24% > 28% > 32% > 36% Sprint Speed

10✰ Bleeding Armor (Warframe) <12 Madurai>
Transform 4% > 8% > 12% > 16% > 20% > 24% > 28% > 32% > 36% > 40% > 44% Health into Armor.

10✰ Suffering Guard (Warframe) <15 Madurai>
-10% > 16.5% > 23% > 29.5% > 36% > 42.5% > 49% > 55.5% > 62% > 68.5% > 75% Damage taken to shields.
-10% > 16.5% > 23% > 29.5% > 36% > 42.5% > 49% > 55.5% > 62% > 68.5% > 75% Damage taken to health.

10✰ Decaying Diffusion (Warframe) <16 Vazarin>
+4% > 8% > 12% > 16% > 20% > 24% > 28% > 32% > 36% Ability Range
-6% > 12% > 18% > 24% > 30% > 36% > 42% > 48% > 54% Ability Efficiency

10✰ Traumatic Impact (Melee) <12 Naramon>
+40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% > 140% > 160% > 180% > 200% > 220% > 240% Impact Damage
-20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100% > 110% > 120% Puncture Damage

10✰ Abrasive Collision (Melee) <12 Naramon>
+40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% > 140% > 160% > 180% > 200% > 220% > 240% Impact Damage
-20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100% > 110% > 120% Slash Damage

10✰ Grueling Wounds (Melee) <12 Naramon>
+40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% > 140% > 160% > 180% > 200% > 220% > 240% Slash Damage
-20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100% > 110% > 120% Impact Damage

10✰ Empty Auger (Melee) <12 Naramon>
+40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% > 140% > 160% > 180% > 200% > 220% > 240% Puncture Damage
-20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100% > 110% > 120% Slash Damage

10✰ Possessed Strikes (Melee) <12 Naramon>
+40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% > 140% > 160% > 180% > 200% > 220% > 240% Puncture Damage
-20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100% > 110% > 120% Slash Damage

9✰ Recessive Strike (Melee) <14 Madurai>
+8% > 16% > 24% > 32% > 40% > 48% > 56% > 64% > 72% > 80%  Heavy Attack Wind Up Speed
-10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% > 90% > 100%  Heavy Attack Damage

10✰ Distended Style (Melee) <16 Madurai>
+0.15 > 0.20 > 0.25 > 0.30 > 0.35 > 0.40 > 0.45 > 0.50 > 0.55 > 0.60 > 0.65 Range per stance combo stage
-2% > 4% > 6% > 8% > 12% > 14% > 16% > 18% > 20% > 22% > 24% Attack Speed per stance combo stage

9✰ Weighted Bullets (Rifle) <18 Madurai>
+ 0.3 > 0.6 > 1.2 > 1.5 > 1.8 > 2.1 > 2.4 > 2.7 > 3.0 > 3.3m Punch Through
-5% > 10% > 15% > 20% > 25% > 30% > 35% > 40% > 45% > 50% Fire Rate

6✰ Overclocked Turbine (Archwing) <16 Madurai>
+5% > 10% > 15% > 20% > 25% > 30% > 35% Archwing Speed
+0.3s > 0.6s > 0.9s > 1.2s > 1.5s > 1.8s > 2.1s longer blink cooldown.

9✰ Defenseless Reflection (Archwing) <14 Vazarin>
+6% > 12% > 18% > 24% > 30% > 36% > 42% > 48% > 54% > 60% Shield Damage Resistance
-8% > 16% > 24% > 32% > 40% > 48% > 56% > 64% > 72% > 80% Armor

10✰ Maddening Efficacy (Archwing) <16 Madurai>
+9% > 18% > 27% > 36% > 45% > 54% > 64% > 72% > 81% > 90% > 99% Ability Strength
-6% > 12% > 18% > 24% > 30% > 36% > 42% > 48% > 54% > 60% > 66% Ability Efficiency

10✰ Intolerance (Archwing) <16 Vazarin>
+9% > 18% > 27% > 36% > 45% > 54% > 64% > 72% > 81% > 90% > 99% Ability Duration
-6% > 12% > 18% > 24% > 30% > 36% > 42% > 48% > 54% > 60% > 66% Ability Range

5✰ Secondhand Skill (Archwing) <11 Naramon>
+10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% Ability Efficiency
-10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% Ability Duration

5✰ Outreaching Wings (Archwing) <11 Vazarin>
+10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% Power Range
-15% > 30% 45% . 60% > 75% > 90% Power Strength

5✰ Sickening Recharge (Arch Gun) <9 Naramon>
+20% > 40% > 60% > 80% > 100% > 120% Charge Rate
-10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% Magazine Capacity

10✰ Abhorrent Shot (Arch Gun) <15 Madurai>
+15% > 30% > 45% > 60% > 75% > 90% > 105% > 120% > 135% > 150% > 165% Damage
-5% > 10% > 15% > 20% > 25% > 30% > 35% > 40% > 45% > 50% > 55% Accuracy

7✰ Vain Aim (Arch Gun) <13 Madurai>
-10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% Recoil
-9% > 18% > 27% > 36% > 45% > 54% > 63% > 72% Damage

5✰ Frenzied Fighter (Arch Melee) <11 Madurai>
On Critical Hit gain 15% > 30% > 45% > 60% > 75% > 90% Attack Speed for 12s
On Critical Hit lose 10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% Status Chance

7✰ Grim Armament (Arch Melee) <12 Madurai>
+10% > 20% > 30% > 40% > 50% > 60% > 70% > 80% Critical Damage
-3% > 6% > 9% > 12% > 15% > 18% > 21% > 24% Damage

Lost Arts
Lost Arts are mods designed for the parazon. I decided to give them a name because just mods seem weird as the mods for the parazon lack a polarity/school to follow. Most of these "Lost Arts" are based in some form or another on ninjutsu and ninja tactics such as sabotage, infiltration, surviving, mobility, etc etc. I did notice that the parazon, while may people compare it toa ssassins creed, is very similar to an essential tool all ninja carry. So I wanted to make the Parazon an omni tool with these "Lost Arts"

Spoiler

0✰ Lost Hook (Parazon)
Double tapping the roll button shoots Parazon up to 35m dragging tenno to location like a ripline.

0✰ Neural Wash (Parazon)
Mercy Kills brainwash enemies and make them fight for you. 5 enemies maximum. Extra enemies die.

0✰ Spectral Spike (Parazon)
Upon reviving an ally, they are mercy killed creating a specter of them for 1 minute. Only one specter can be active at a time.

0✰ Warp Blade (Parazon)
Teleport to enemies open to mercy kills with X.

0✰ Swift Assassin (Parazon)
Increase Finisher Speed by 350%.

0✰ Battle Born (Parazon)
Mercy Kills raise melee combo by 35

0✰ Weak Link (Parazon)
Enemies below 18% Health can be mercy killed.

0✰ Guard Breaker (Parazon)
Impact procs have a 18% chance to open enemies to Mercy Kills.

0✰ Disarming Kill (Parazon)
Mercy Kills break enemy weaponry within 16m

0✰ Master Assassin (Parazon)
Mercy Kills open all enemies 8m from the Mercy to normal finishers.

0✰ Holographic Trickery (Parazon)
Mercy is performed by a holographic copy instead of the warframe.

0✰ Fox Fire (Parazon)
All enemies within 16m of the target are ignited for 5% of enemies Max HP

0✰ Blood Lust (Parazon)
Mercy Killing an enemy increases attack sped by 35% for 15s

0✰ Blood Bath (Parazon)
Mercy kill regenerates 5 health per second for 12 seconds.

0✰ Adrenal Overload (Parazon)
Mercy kill grant 75 extra energy which decays over the course of 12 seconds.

0✰ Lock Pick (Parazon)
65% chance that locked lockers can be hacked to be unlocked.

0✰ Ciphered Circuitry (Parazon)
80% chance ciphers are not consumed on use.

0✰ Essence Siphon (Parazon)
Drain enemies of life creating 50 endo from Mercy Kills.

0✰ Synthesis Sweep (Parazon)
Enemies are fully scanned on mercy kill and grant 10X simaris standing.

Plague Vial
The Plague Vial is an item similar to Forma and can be installed with the Actions option. Plague Vials can only be injected into infested melee weapons once. This allows the infested melee weapon to use exodia arcanes. This will allow normal infested weapons to compare to plague zaws and hopefully increase weapon variety. This obviously will need some balancing but I believe this would greatly help in getting some forgotten weapons out there.
The Plague Vials can also be used in dojo decorations like trophies, and it can also be used for craftable items later on. If this resource is used it not only puts more value into invasions, but railjack.

Spoiler

Caustacyst / Cerata / Dual Ichor / Hirudo / Lesion / Mios / Mire / Pathocyst / Pupacyst / Scoliac can be injected to carry Exodia Arcanes with the Plague Vials.

24H Plague Vial // 4 Infested Catalyst // 2 Mutagen Mass // 4 Bracoids // 5 Synthula // 100,000 Credits

 

 

 

{-{-{-{-{ LOST MEMORIES V2 }-}-}-}-}

   Lost Memories are an old concept I used for the "Revenge of the Sergeant raid, but I believe I've improved on them since. Many are still the same but some were altered, cut down, nerfed, or changed to be more fitting. These were inspired by the Echos of Umbra item, but refined to be better. This not only allows sentience, but acts as an upgrade a way to provide lore on your favorite frames.
   For those who don't know what they are, Forgotten Memories will be an item which can be installed in your warframe to activate 1 of 3 special attributes tied to that specific warframe. In a sense, they are augments without the need of a slot, but still different. The goal is not to buff or nerf, but twist, enhance, or create playstyles in different directions. These will also allow your frame to become sentient, similar to umbra, and move without your operator.
   Now I say specific warframe because players can only have 1 attribute per frame crafted. If you different abilities you must create another warframe. This is essentially like creating another character for different powers becuase you build them differently. This will cost more time, forma, catalysts, slots, and reactors, throwing people back into the warframe loop. To be detailed, this would benefit people who trade, it would place more value into prime parts and relics, it would be a resource sink, and it benefits DE because the paying players will spend more money. All at the same time, this system isn't P2W because you MUST play the raid to obtain this power. You must be good enough to have it.

Spoiler

   Players must collect 5 of a specific warframe's forgotten memories from this raid. Once this is done, you can install 5 of X warframe's memories with the actions option which begins the "recovery" process. "Recovery" causes the frame to go berserk. Chase it like you did with umbra during the sacrifice, subdue it, and transference into it. From here you can access 3 options to take your warframe's pain away. Wrath, Acceptance, or Emptiness. Each option correlates to a different power so pick wisely.
   After the mission is completed the warframe is returned to you as "recovered" and you get a glowing effect around your mastery symbol in your energy color when using a "recovered" warframe. Recovery will also add 50 Mastery points to your profile for each unique recovery completed for a total of 150 mastery among the three choices. Only your first choice for the frame will be added to the moral compass.
   In the codex, recovering a warframe will let you view your "recovered" warframe's memories, of before they became a warframe. This is more for personal investment into the warframes and would allow lore communities to thrive. Each codex should involve something related to their abilities and their memories like their last thought or something important to them. Here is an example, just so you can get the general idea. Preferably it would be longer but even something this size would be appreciated. 

SARYN

Spoiler

   "Subject" was a high ranked and well respected orokin scientist who worked alongside archimedean Silvana. She was notified that her daughter was to be used as the base for the newest warframe, Saryn. "Subject" knew what the trial would do and pleaded to take her daughter's place, to spare her. "Subject" was taken to an isolated cell and injected with the most terrible virus ever born of the golden empire. Her cell flooded with contagions beyond imagination. Through the cycles, "Subject" drank noxious acids and viral fluids, throwing them up and always slipping in and out of deadly slumber within the venomous miasma. The terrible sickness within refused to allow "Subject" a peaceful end, breaking and consuming her in a maddening pain to keep itself alive. Soon the cell became the most poisonous place in the system. Yet life blossomed within the tomb, a grove of beautifully malignant flora so polluted with toxins it was fatal to the touch. With breath and blood like acid, Saryn was born. Her last lingering thought was of her daughter, dressed in a purple and blue dress.
   After Saryn's creation, she was sent to earth under an experienced dax commander to cull the infested swarms. Poison to fight poison, Saryn's affliction was the corrosive bladed bane to the infested.

   Here's a list of the attributes gained by the Forgotten Memories.

Spoiler

Atlas
A roided Medusa on #63
1. Petrify now freezes creating ice instead of rocks, enemies are slowed if shooting at Atlas with ice rubble.
2. Rumblers have an 80% chance to petrify enemies when attacking.
3. Atlas can roll through Rock Walls to refresh and gain rubble, he becomes becomes and can aim the boulder dealing more damage in a larger radius the further he travels.

Ash
Such a Ninja wannabe I'm surprised his sprint animation isn't naruto running.
1. Bladestorm can mark enemies up to 4 times, marking enemies increases combo count by 3.
2. Throwing weapons have a seeking effect, homing in on enemies heads slightly. Shuriken will always headshot.
3. When cloaking, Ash releases a stun grenade stunning all nearby enemies briefly and opening all enemies affected to mercy kills.

Banshee
Owner of DJ Dubstep Radio Station, on from Tennoclock AM to Tennoclock PM
1. Sonic Boom stuns enemies after knock down for 8s.
2. Sonor turns banshee’s vision black and white, letting her and her team to see enemies through walls. 
3. Silence nullifies eximus effects.

Baruuk
Looks for opportunities to throw a temper tantrum. 
3. Enemies suffering impact damage have a 25% chance to become vulnerable to Mercy Kills, greatly reducing restraint.
2. Lulled enemies will not attack baruuk or his allies at all unless attacked themselves.
1. Desolate Hands disarms and deep sleeps targeted enemy.

Chroma
An old, flightless, dragon that can't spit fire half as well as he can fly. get it?
1. Chroma merges with the pelt, allowing flight like Hildryn. Hold to fly/land, tap to flap wings to push enemies away with status effects.
2. Spectral scream charges Vex Armor and Elemental Ward, scaling in size, damage, and dps, the stronger Elemental Ward and Vex Armor become.
3. Sentient pelt adapts as armor grants adaptation up to 65%.

Ember
IM RELEVANT AGAIN!
1.Fireball bounces from enemy to enemy if enemy is affected by Inferno scaling in damage with each bounce.
2. Fireblast creates a convection prison, trapping enemies within and keeps them ignites.
3. Burning enemies in affinity range of Ember have a 30% chance to drop health globes on death.

Equinox
The unbalanced warframe based on balance.
1. Day and Night have separate health bars and slowly regenerate when out of combat. When downed Equinox can activate her 1st ability to get back up.
2. Mend will rejuvenate allies in range over time with the stored healing. Maim will increase or decrease enemy speed based off power strength.
3. Enemies affected by Rest have a higher chance to drop health orbs. Enemies affected by rage have a higher chance to drop energy orbs.

Excalibur
The Kirit- I mean swordsman of warframe. Also R.I.P Draco
1. Dual Swords can be modded and customized separately but the stance is shared. Swords can also now equip one handed skins.
2. Slash Dash attacks create 4 extra energy waves which travel outwards. *like kirito’s horizontal square*
3. Swords gain 5% Range and damage per combo stage // E= 5% // EE= 10% EE E= 15%

Frost
The cool dude.
1. Ice Wave cleanses status from frost and allies hit, then applies the effects to all enemies hit by Ice Wave
2. Shooting Freeze from within snowglobes uses snowglobe health as added damage.
3. Avalanche creates a blizzard reducing enemy accuracy and healing snow globes.

Gara
Must be very… very… careful… to not break her.
1. Glassed enemies from Mass Vitrify leave shatters glass which increases/refreshes splinter storm.
2. Spectrorage will fill to Mass Vitrify's radius, filling shattered wall segments consuming a mirror.
3. Damaging gara's shields have a chance to blind attacking enemies.

Garuda
Likes to live life on the edge. ok dark humor sorry.
1. If Garuda is too low on energy to cast abilities, she will use her health to cast abilities as a secondary means of energy.
2. If Garuda or an ally dies when near a Blood Alter, they're instantly revived sacrificing the alter.
3. Blood ball creates a dome of blood cleansing status and healing allies over time.

Gauss
Brain Damage, Don't run into walls at home kids.
1. Gauss grabs an enemy in Mach Rush and uses 35% of their health as explosion damage.
2. Energy Orbs grant 10% Battery Charge.
3. Redline now stands at 85%

Grendel
UWU
1. Pulverize deals 100% more damage per meter of height he falls from.
2. Grendel's Nourish eats enemies and spits out extra loot.
3. Grendel becomes invisible while using feast.

Harrow
The hot headed occult leader who blames his team for everything and leaves.
1. Covenant no longer increases critical chance, but increases status chance. 100%+ applies 2,3,etc etc different status.
2. Headshots on chained enemies will refresh the duration of condemn and chains nearby enemies.
3. Enemies within Thurible Radius generate 25% of energy if killed by allies.

Hildryn
She's got mountains for muscles, shields in spades, and comes with a heavy laser gun... Guess what joke I'm making.
1. Pillage always pushes enemies away then drags enemies to Hildryn when reactivated.
2. Balefire deal 60% less damage but rapidly shoots 3 times with larger splash radius.
3. Aegis Storm flight now tethers enemies with hildryn.

Hydroid
 Censored 
1. Undertow is 500% larger and faster. Undertow no longer drags enemies under unless done manually.
2. Tempest Barrage will be cast on all allied positions anywhere on the map and at target location.
3. Hydroid can swap between 2 Tidal Surge types letting him travel with the wave or not.

Inaros
Has an obsession with daggers.
1. When downed, Inaros has access to all his abilities and shambles like a zombie instead of being in a sarcophagus
2. Inaros leaps to enemies when devouring and heals 300% faster.
3. Desiccation traps enemies in quicksand.

Ivara
The bunny, treefrog, jellyfish, archer who uses ripoff dark sector mechanics. Make up your mind people, what is she!?
1. Artemis Bow transforms into a longbow shooting 9 arrows instead of 7 in a 35% smaller fan. Longbow can only be fired at 50% or above.
2. While in Prowl, Ivara can see enemies heads through walls similar to the Zenith.
3. Prowl steals 200% faster and opens stolen enemies to finishers.

Khora
Crazy Cat Lady's basement personified.
1. While Venari is in offensive mode, Venrai teleports to marked enemy and performs a lethal attack. Enemies standing 11m from the attack are snared. Venari's finishers cause a ripple effect through the strangle dome and ensnared enemies, dealing damage to them as well.
2. While Venari is in Protect mode, she will teleport to the marked, disarming them and jamming all enemy weapons in an 11m radius. Venari becomes 60% more resilliant to physical damage.
3. Venari passively has access to Shelter, Mischief, and Sense Danger and does not need mod slots to gain effects.

Limbo
ZAA WALDO!
1. Limbo can access a third dimension. All of his abilities gain a quiver mechanic to summon a second version of the ability for this third dimension.
2. Limbo can overclock time in the rift with rift surge, causing everything within the rift to happen faster or slower depending on power strength.
3. Operators never run out of energy and ammo in the rift and energy regeneration is increased to 2 per second.

Loki Master Race
STOP TELEPORTING ME OFF THE CLIFF!
1. Enemies targeting decoy or allies are open to mercy kills, from behind, while loki is invisible.
2. Decoy scales in level similar to specters. 3 decoys can be placed down at one time. Decoys can latch onto walls.
3. Switch Teleport refreshes all active duration abilities.

Mag
Hildryn's, less popular big sister. Yes, big sister, mag was released first. Also R.I.P Draco
2. Crush increases in damage the more armor, shields, and enemies are caught within crush. Magnetized enemies take critical damage.
1. Mags shields focus on specific points rather than a full sphere, reducing incoming damage to shields by 90%.
3. All abilities apply magnetic status effects on enemies.

Mesa
Soldier 76 and Mcree's baby... wait that doesn't make s-
1. When using Dual Pistols, Mesa can customize and mod each pistol separately Each pistol has its own recoil and cross hair when aiming.
2. Ballistic Battery is now activated as a timed ability applying it's stored damage to weapons for 6s
3. Shooting Gallery now jams weapons of enemies you shoot, regardless of range.

Mirage
Synoid Simulor. Also R.I.P Draco
1. Holding Hall Of Mirrors disbands mirrors as specters for them to do their own thing. They can be recalled by holding the ability down again in case they are needed.
2. Mirage prism can be shot to increase damage, critical chance, critical damage, and influence status type.
3. Sleight of Hand will multiply and duplicate ammunition, health orbs, and energy orbs.

Nekros
Bone Daddy
1. Desecrate creates a wandering ghost of the enemy, distracting enemy fire. *won’t stack your shield of shadows*
2. Nekros terrify creates a prison equal in radius to cast area, keeping enemies inside the area.
2. Soul Punch heals all allies nearby the target by 25% max health, including shadows.

Nezha
Your access to In-game chat has been suspended.
1. Firewalker creates skates out of halos increasing fire walker width by 1m and increases sprint and sliding speed by 25%.
2. Recasting divine spears teleports all speared enemies infront of nezha and slams them into the ground.
3. Chakrams have an 8m vacuum, harvesting and bringing back loot.

Nidus
Oh a new frame was released? CYST TIME!
1. Maggots trapped in larva multiply, exploding and splitting in 2 when hit by virulence dealing 75% less damage with each split.
2. Virulence impales enemies for 6s, keeping them locked on fungal spikes taking toxin DoT.
3. Nidus sacrifices 5 stacks to save an ally from death if parasitic link is active.

Nova
Don't let her play basketball. She'll drop the ball.
1. Wormhole sucks in enemy projectiles within 5m. Players are tugged in the direction of wormholes if they're within 3m.
2. Antimatter Drop enhances null star damage and charges enemies with molecular prime.
3. Killing primed enemies has a 70% chance to grant an additional Null Star.

Nyx
*Crying in the corner*
1. Nyx can mind control up to 3 targets. Releasing a target from mind control causes a psionic explosion, avoiding armor, damaging all enemies near the target.
2. Chaos places all enemies affected into a deep sleep, however enemies are still active and attack everything in sight, including themselves.
3. Nyx shrouds herself in starry black mist gaining 60% Evasion and status immunity while shields are active.

Oberon
The female goat that married Tinkerbell... wait he's a guy?
1. Hallowed Ground creates invincible radioactive razor wings spreading radiation to enemies around the ground.
2. Smite deals an additional 25% damage per status on base smited enemy.
3. Irradiated targets will completely ignore Oberon.

Octavia
Her music is so bad that it can be described as a rolling ball of death... metal.
1. Amp renders Octavia impervious to all damage and status. She enters a dancing animation where the player can play an extremely difficult Swazin Rhythm Game to apply all metronome effects to players in affinity range. Losing a combo resets all provided buffs. High Combos increase duration of allied abilities.
2. High power strength lowers metronome speed, low power strength increases metronome speed. Each note can be played with a completely different musical instrument.
3. Octavia can place down 2 Resonators. They no longer pick up mallet but produce a metronome at 50% range while metronome is active. 

Revenant
Vampire/Ghost/Eidolon Hunter/Sentient warframe... Ok who designed this guy and why is he like this!?
1. While mesmer Skin is active, Revenant generates a 23m bubble of eidolon energy reducing damage from outside the energy dome by 60% *for team play.*
2. Thralls that die from Danse Macabre create massive lasers which shoot into the sky. Lasers have a 3m radius and deal 5% of the thrall's max HP per second as tau damage.
3. When Revenant goes down, he assumes a vomvalyst ghost form. He can either be revived by a team mate, or reave health to revive. Abilities can be used, but weapons deal no damage similar to the rift.

Rhino
OOOOPTICOOOOOR!!!!
1. Allies affected by Rhino's Roar will release a roar of their own, but using their own power range and strength.
2. Rhino Stomp breaks time, increasing the duration of all active warframe abilities in range by 12s.
3. Rhino's Iron Skin armor uses Alloy Armor instead of Ferrite Armor.

Saryn
God Saryn's so weak she can't even play ESO correctly. She needs a buff right??? right? yeh thought so.
1. Molt now creates 6 crawlers in Saryn's visage which crawl towards enemies, distracting them, then explode in their face with gas clouds. Crawler Molts distract enemies.
2. Miasma creates a highly contagious miasma causing enemies to spread viral effects to unaffected enemies. Corpses remain longer letting the viral toxins spread.
3. Popping spores with melee weapons surges the target with 100% of spore damage but spores now deal 50% of spore damage.

Titania
Behold, Tinkerbell! The eater of Forma.
3. Collecting Tribute recovers 3 razorflies. Titanya can have up to 32 razorflies active at one time which now scale in level like specters.
2. Lantern no longer uses enemies. Titania herself will glow herself and damaging enemies stores damage for an explosion.
1. Dex Pixia and Diwata can be called down as Archwing Weapons in her base form, however these last indefinitely.

Trinity
Lobster butt was the OG Support.
1. Blessing duration extends by 1s per enemy trinity kills.
2. Trinity loses 10% efficiency and 10% duration, in return gaining 10% strength and 10% range.
3. Well of Health grants Armor equal to HP recovered.

Valkitty
If Nyx's absorb invincibility was actually put in something useful.
1. During Hysteria, Valkyr gets on all fours gaining extra mobility. Valkyr gains 35% sprint speed, 45% finisher speed, and 100% double jump strength.
2. All enemies and allies inside of or within 2m of Valkyr's "Hysterical Aura" are affected by warcry if active.
3. Pressing X midripline animation causes Valkyr to leap onto target performing a cinematic hysteria finisher. 

Vauban
Clown/God of the 1,000... soon to be 10,000
3. Enemies affected by tesla are orbital striked for 25% damage when casting orbital strike.
2. Vauban gains access to an Augment mod slot.
1. Vauban gains access to Two Exilus slots.

Volt
Sonic the Hedgehog, also he can actually turn... GAUSS!
1. Charged Electric Shields create a static field which forcefully blasts enemies away from the shield with powerful bolts of lightning.
2. Volt becomes a tesla coil while discharge is active, stunning enemies for the duration of the ability like any other enemy.
3. Electrified enemies from any of his abilities have a greater chance at dropping energy orbs.

Wisp
Kaaaa-meeee-haaaa-meee-HAAAA
1. Wisp can teleport to allies and reservoirs through walls with breach surge becoming invisible for 6s.
2. Wisp has an invincible "will o wisp" duplicate of her equipped companion distracting enemies.
3. Deploying specters or clones as Wisp creates 2 of that summoned ally.

Wu Kong
Carrot
1. Wu Kong will now activate 2/3 of his undying traits on death and recovers one free revive every 5 minutes he is alive.
2. If Celestial Twin is active when Wu Kong goes down, He takes the Twin's place at full health but no energy.
3. After defy is used, all enemies within Wu Kong's vision will freeze for 4.5 seconds.

Zephyr
Birds can't fly, but buff ladies and fairies can.
1. Zephyr's tailwind charge lets Zephyr fly in the air like Hildryn and moves 300% Faster.
2. Hold tornado to release a cyclone lifting all enemies 8m away from tornadoes for 12s
3. All airborne or lifted foes 8m from Zephyr's tailwind suffer heavy slash damage.

 

{-{-{-{-{-{ CONCLUSION }-}-}-}-}-}

I've been sitting on this for over a month now and I'm not sure everything is completely correct. However I needed to push this out there NOW because there was mention of a railjack raid idea and I want to put my own ideas out there. I seriously doubt this will be the raid should the railjack be used, but It's fun to think about what it could be.

I did try to keep the general theme of the original "Yggdrasil" raid idea, but I also wanted to modernize it to the railjack. Additionally i had to make some extra challenge because I don't want the raid to just be a push over. Making it feel impossible but not actually making it impossible was the goal. This raid will push people to use everything they possibly can to win.

One thing I haven't included is a scoring system or leader boards. The reason for that being I don't know how I'd go about making one for this raid so this one is more PvE focused. Making it time based would rely too much on map generation RNG so that would be unfair, and there's not a solid system which can't be abused for a scoring system so this raid shouldn't have one.

Lastly, I excluded squad link for several reasons. For 1 I don't want to include something so bug risky in a raid because it would rely too much on factors you cannot control. The mission can be messed up by bugging, disconnecting, host migrations, and more so Squad Link would only make it worse. The normal raids were buggy as is so i don't want to risk more then I need to. Secondly, I don't have a good grip of what squad link could possibly do and how it can be used so It's hard to concept a raid off of such a big unknown.

Would this be a fun raid? If you've got any criticism on anything at all, or questions, feel free to leave it below and I'll try my best to reply.

[(PC) Empyrean: Railjack General Feedback Megathread]

   I'm not going to say anything in regards to bugs... we all know they exist en mass. I could honestly write a book titles Emperyon 76 pertaining all the glitches in my first hours of gameplay. From dying during a deployment animation to not being able to escape enemy ships, I can write it all. But this is feedback not bugs.

   This update, bugs aside, is a huge leap in the right direction. I'm not done with it yet but it's super fun and has alot of potential for future investment. I do want to say though you missed out on a major intrinsic opportunity. I came up with the name for this one so it's kind of fake but it's an important and risky role to play. Interceptors. Just like the grineer you have interceptor tenno which primarily use archwing to support the railjack from the outside.
   The Amesha deploys cover and defense, Elytron provides great area damage, Itzal destroys any crewships before they can come close. Not only do interceptors have access to their archwing powers but they also disrupt enemy fire preventing enemy AI from attacking the railjack. Intercepting is hard to do because you always put yourself out there in danger without the shield of the railjack and it requires you to have stuff from all intrinsic sections as well as a good understanding of archwing. Due to the different playstyles of people and the goal is defending the railjack all archwings should have a use now.

   Also I find it really REALLY clever how you designed the enemy pathing. It's on offensive variation of what the pursuit ships use and I'm wondering if maybe archwing enemies might also be added to emperyon eventually too. I also noticed that enemies have a very special new type of health. When I glitched and died in the middle of space I got the rare opportunity to shoot the enemy ships with my actual guns. Despite the fact that they are level 12 and lack much armor I wasn't doing thousands of damage. Will we be seeing this anywhere outside of emperyon, because a heads up would be appreciated.

   Now about solo content ).) I don't think you considered too much because I was able to solo all of earth by using specters to guard different areas of the railjack. This means I was free to leave the ship and simply act as an interceptor for solo play escorting my railjack whenever I needed to and even if the ship got damaged 1 minute is always more than enough  time for me to take down a ship, teleport back, and seal the breach. I don't think this was intended so maybe put more pressure on us with a timer between 30 to 40 seconds? 60 feels way too long.

   As for rewards you did a fantastic job. Some people are complaining about how we have to go around to pick them up but I say that's completely fine. There are those of us who survive without carrier so do it now. Not only that but resources are shared, if one player picks something up we all get it. That means at the end of a mission when players do the loot runs 3 players leave the ship and go around collecting resources. it's actually quite relaxing and gives a bit of downtime while still retaining that warframe drops everywhere feel.

   If I have one thing I want to say that's bad about this is that it's a pain to have to farm so many resources just to make essentials. I know the payload lets us carry that revolite but can you allow us to carry resources into the mission within the payload too? Stocking up on raw resources in resource management ships should be mandatory in games like this but we can't do that. Larger forge capacity would also be appreciated even if it's an item we have to install into our ship. Further more when we refine our materials it refines all of them. Can we have a way to refine a specific amount so we don't dry up the things we need for revolite?

   This part will be due to concerns I have for multiplayer. Due to a bug I had to force close warframe and hope I could reconnect to my session. Little did I know I wasn't going to be able tor reconnect and I lost all my resources. Getting mission reconnects in quickly should be a priority especially for something this buggy. I also noticed that whenever I sent an invite I sent about 3-7 invites at once followed by a crash leading to anthem amounts of loading screens. 

   So far that's all the feedback I can really give. I don't know if this will be a disruption 2.0 where we need to improve rewards but from what I've seen so far it's promising.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

people hate it even more when all efficient methods are being taken away and are forced to play in an inefficient manner

   I didn't say anything about taking away efficient methods. I am pro for not nerfing saryn and frames like her because they're fine as is. All of our most used warframes are fine. Sure some could have some minor tweaks to their stats but they don't need to be smacked with a nerf bat. As I said I agreed with you. Why are you so determined in trying to frame it like I'm against you?

 

Just now, BlackVortex said:

uh? so I cannot speak for others but you can?

   I do not speak for others, but I can inform you of psychological facts. People WILL play things they don't like if the circumstances fit. I'm using myself as a way to present facts about people, and you used yourself as a way to present people's opinions. There's a difference.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

Can you give me a breakdown why you think this is best for the game? I do not see how "a diverse and equally used roster of warframes" defines my and other players enjoyment of the game.

p.s. in this pursuit DE could also(like they promised years ago) instead of bringing every good frame down to garbage level, bringing the garbage frames up to the level of the most used frames

problem then is that other people will start crying about how it trivializes the game, which it only does on lower levels, once your abilities stop dealing sufficient damage to kill the enemies, the weapons will be the only way to go.

   It brings more interactivity to the game and allows for all players to enjoy more warframes. Some frames feel like they lack a purpose in the game because they're out shadowed by others due to the game's flaws. it CAN bring more enjoyment to players should you decide to explore those characters. You can speak for yourself, but cannot speak for other players saying that it defines their fun. We don't know that.

   They will hopefully be working on that to an extent but not all of the warframes we have now are garbage. The fact is they just don't fit into the meta of the game. The only warframe off the top of my head that needs help is nyx. Others just need missions to favor their kit so they can be useful. Usefulness does not equate to power. i certainly would like to see them brought up but not all of them need to be given reworks for this to happen.

   People will cry, then you go after them for it and tell them that they're wrong. Don't post one comment then leave, discuss and debate over it. Make yourself heard and you can change some people's minds. Or maybe you'll find yourself learning something.

9 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

yes, if you remove the sentence that came after it, it does seem like a snarky one shot comment...

   I had already posted the entire comment once and talked about how DE did something stupid due to DE's feedback so I didn't feel the need to post the entire thing again. I simply needed to point out something specific you said.
   I could also say the same on your end. "it seems very targeted to not include both quotes". DE's comment aside there was no reason for you to say "aha, so you decide what's best for the game" simply because I put my voice out there. What other conclusion would you expect people to reach? 

29 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

which argument was that?

   That's just it there was no argument. i agreed with you, provided my thoughts, and you leapt at my throat. I assume at least you would provide a counter argument to why my ideas were wrong, but you just went "aha, so you decide what's best for the game".

20 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

since apparently 80% of the game plays only a fraction of the frames, by sheer logic that people play what they enjoy, factual numbers are on my side and you have to be the one having to prove they do this without actually enjoying this

   People do not only play what they enjoy. Psychologically people will play whatever is most efficient even if they hate or don't care for it. Depending on the person this may be the case but if FUN was all players were after then there would be 0 complaints about disruption when it launched. Fun value only gets you so far. Again as I said above, you also can speak for yourself but you cannot speak for others.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

6 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

so DE knows whats best for the game? I think that on more than one occasion they have proven to be completely clueless about whats best for the game, they just do whatever the biggest crybabies cry about so that they stop crying.

   I didn't say that either. This game is founded on the exchange of information and feedback between players and developers. It's a relationship and the combined efforts of the community and DE brought warframe to it's current state for better or for worse. Nobody is able to decide what is best for the game because it's impossible to know what's best. But we can guess what's good for the game.
   You didn't respond to the main point of my post or even provide a counter argument to what I said. What you did was try to diss me and diss DE for not knowing what's good for the game's health, trying to make a fool of myself and the developers.

34 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

aha, so you decide what is best for the game?

17 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

so DE knows whats best for the game?

   They are just snarky one shot comments meant to degrade people, they aren't constructive. It just feels like you're upset with the games current state, which I understand, and want to lash out at someone. Even someone who agreed with you on some level. 

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

This being said "Breaking and Nerfing" or "Buffing and Reworking" frames is not the way to go about this specific situation.

   I'm simply saying what I believe would help the game just as you have in the past.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

8 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

aha, so you decide what is best for the game?

   Not what I said. I said I want what's best for the game, I don't decide what's the best or what the future will hold. That decision will always lie with DE at the end of the day and the most we can do is provide feedback and throw ideas at them. What I believe is best for the game, which is my opinion and not a fact, is a diverse and equally used roster of warframes. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that DE also wants all of their characters they they've spent years creating to be used.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

2 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Wouldn't that depend on in what way you are checking for 80% usage? For instance, any player that has gotten a 27 mastery rank is going to have used most every warframe and contribute to usage overall. If a warframe is only being used it calls more into what is the situation around that usage, what is the quality of the alternatives, and in what specific situation are we narrowing down on to get this usage range.

   Yeah pretty much, but the issue is players only care about a handful of missions and because of that only certain frames are called for. I believe the chart shown was showcasing play rate of all warframes in general. Not mission specific. That data is primarily going to be composed of parts of the game players play frequently in. Examples being dark sectors, defense, survival, ESO, index, etc etc. The majority of these areas lend themselves to a set number of frames. Naturally CC and support warframes have been left in the dust because they can't help much in these popular mission types.
   Because of this we see a stark difference in the usage of frames across the board when there shouldn't be. General usage data should show the majority of the frames being used about equally with a few outliers at lower playrates. Instead we have the majority being used less and a few outliers being used more. If Farming, Horde Destroying, and Tanking are demanded from most then by default frames that explicitly focus on that will rise to the top.
   But if they fix the game, like for example if enemy scaling was fixed, then tanking wouldn't be seen as necessary for a frame's success in the eyes of average players. This would result in less players playing tanks and more players playing squishy or durable frames instead of unkillable or invisible frames. In other words less players would play Inaros and wukong over others because tanking is less needed.

   Unless I completely missed the point of your post. it's not uncommon for me, sorry if I didn't.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

it's only a problem if you make it one, I am perfectly happy with those overpower and overused frames and so are the 80% that play them

if you feel there is a problem and DE agrees, then perhaps they should make the other frames crazy overpowered as well so we can enjoy playing those too

but...

that will never happen, people will always shift to the frames that is either the most fun to play or the most efficient to play with

breaking and nerfing frames is only going to piss off those 80% that play them for those reasons

   It's not a problem for you, but it is a problem for people like me who want what's best for the game or for DE allowing the game to live longer. This isn't personal for some of us, it's a professional issue.

   No there is a problem with 80% of the population playing a handful of frames. It's obviously nowhere near as bad as 50% of the game using one gun, but it's still an issue if 4 frames make up a good portion of playtime with a roster of 42 frames. Maybe not for you, but it is for DE. For us it's just part of the game and that's all well and good, cool shiz we enjoy what we enjoy. But we the players will neglect content which DE has created. DE wants you to play with these other frames, weapons, and mods. They don't want anything to be fodder.

   This being said "Breaking and Nerfing" or "Buffing and Reworking" frames is not the way to go about this specific situation. What we need are fixes to the game as a whole, not simple reworks and tweaks to numbers which end up damaging the community and game overall.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

   I'm still dumbfounded at how people in this thread think she's too strong. Many players have stated plenty of times that she's got frames that rival her against low level horde content *which is where the vast majority of us play* so why is everyone complaining when everyone can get kills if they actually give a damn and try. Seriously whenever I see a saryn I'm bound to see one guy just stop moving and say "fk it I'm not getting kills" maybe because you're not trying. We are able to get kills with spores and I gave proof from an ingame screenshot and several others seem to follow the same story. You sitting down just inflates her numbers further because enemies are more likely to die to spores and not you. This game may play itself for you in multiplayer if you want but then it's not a game it's a show. Shows get boring faster then games do.

She's terrible at spy because why not use ivara, wukong, or any other useful spy frame over her.
She can't fight bosses for the life of her mostly becuase of their status immunity or stupid high health pools. This extends to orb mothers and eidolons.
She's not very helpful in survival unless it's a very VERY controlled environment like LoR's videos because life support goes everywhere.
Her damage tapers off at high level content and as stated she isn't seen anywhere in actual difficult content like 1-2 hour survivals, unless very controlled.
Even in what DE considered "hard" content in arbitrations, Saryn is just as useful as literally any other dps frame because of arb drones.
What is now considered "hard" content are the lich where saryn is often a boon to her own team killing not just the enemies, but her allies en mass. Rad sorties included.

If you really want to nerf saryn because she's super good at one game mode then so many other frames are vulnerable to nerfs.
-Ivara can go hours and hours of survival no problem even setting world records of 14 hours.
-Nova is the Goddess of Defense hyperboosting it's speed.
-Rhino is the pride of the index hoarding dozens of points at a time.
-Chroma and Mirage share warframe's version of the title Dragon Slayers, Eidolon Slayers.
-Vauban is the dark god of CC locking down entire rooms with the tap of a button.
-Frost is the best, and always was the best Defensive warframe has had to offer providing CC and protection for his team and the objective in a variety of ways.
-Inaros is the Undying God King.
-Nekros is the Loot Daddy shaking down corpses like his life depends on it.

   Do you notice something though? None of these frames are completely unrivaled in their role despite their reputation and each has their use. Rhino isn't the only index hoarder but that's his rep. Chroma literally shares his title and even warframes like ember now can add to rad damage on eidolon hunts. Vauban isn't the only CC warframe and CC has hard drawbacks. Limbo, Gara, Khora, and even gara can be considered defense alternatives to Frost and each have their own potential. Nekros may be the best loot farmer but Hydroid and Khora seemingly always by his side. Inaros may be the hardest to kill but he's got the hapanese frames on his heels. Nova is almost alone with only loki to contest her using Melee AI to speed up defense missions. Strangely enough though I see all of these warframes more consistently then Saryn outside of ESO in more missions.
   If were going to talk about that she has no drawbacks then the same can be said for the majority of these frames. So what, saryn isn't useful in spy but she's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, frost isn't useful in spy but he's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, Rhino isn't useful is spy but he's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, Chroma isn't useful in spy but he's got no drawbacks. But what no there is a drawback because why use any of those frames over wu kong or ivara who speed spy like no tomorrow. The drawback is they don't have an ability to help them in that mission where others do.

   Her popularity is due to multiple golden factors. She's the most durable DPS which players look for in all frames. She's incredibly easy to learn, but much more difficult to master making her valuable to all MR levels. Her kit is flexible and has build variety making allowing her to be learned in different ways. She's got the best looks, depending on the player, and most skins skins of all female with arguably the most attractive helmets if you're into hair. And psychologically her damage numbers all over the screen hook players like us on her playstyle.
   She is not oppressive in her role she's just the best at it. She is THE ONLY warframe that's as good as she is at what she does but she has intense drawbacks which sometimes even put her teams life on the line. Just like Frost is the best at what he does but has little use elsewhere. Who cares if she's extremely good at what she does as long as she's not oppressive. She is a very specific tool with a very specific purpose which just happens to fit into what the majority of us play and that, in the end, is DE's fault for how they made the game.

   The game is what's broken and if you all say that "DE won't do that pshh, you're crazy" then why do we praise them so much? if the game is broken they should fix it should they not? Is that not the duty of the developer to seek out and address core issues of the game. If they refuse to fix a core issue why do we support them, why should we? What makes this topic worse is this megaphone her reputation seems to get as "Oppressive" or "Overpowered" when she just isn't. She FEELS powerful because that's her design philosophy.

   I know I sound like a saryn fanboy, but I really do despise her. But I hate saryn in general, not because she takes from the game. From one saryn hater to the rest, do something about her. If you REALLY hate saryn go out and kill enemies faster then her spores can spread. She can't scale her damage if there's no enemies to scale off. If all of you are doing your job, then she shouldn't ever reach stupidly high spore numbers. So stop sitting around complaining and make it your life's goal to kill enemies with spores on them.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

On 2019-12-08 at 4:03 PM, Cubewano said:

My points in order follow your points in order, it should be easy to keep track of. *Just saying it might be a better way for others to keep track of the conversation. It's standard in writing to mention what you're talking about. If I don't keep restating what were talking about then people will be lost unless they read the entirety of our argument. Just try it please? I constantly find myself going back to check what I'm saying because you keep saying IT.

1. so you've said it, just not expressly here in response to this request, despite it supposedly being against the rules, and i'm going to assume won't restate it despite clearly nothing happening from it being said here, and this is just convoluted. i give, if you won't explain directly i'll just take it as false/wrong at this point, i'm not here for mental gymnastics. 
2. it's not, but they shouldn't be doing it on the premise of preserving a small number of imbalanced frames, otherwise they'll be going back soon enough again. 
3. so long as the power she exerts can cause a negative impact on design aspects of the game she will remain an issue no matter how many loops you try to hop through to distort that reality. again explain why its okay for her to invalidate engagement in co-op, or otherwise you have no point. 
4. You failed to show it as a particular enemy to even Limbo because you didn't present full circumstances, but that's still off topic and no need to carry further. On topic, she is countered to effectively the same level of effect as CC frames, as explained numerous times, what keeps her over the top like any other nuke is the damage numbers and range of said damage being so overwhelming alternative routes remain unnecessary/undesired. lowering nukes lowers that disparity. 
5. k
6. Direct or Indirect it's still power changes, I don't care for the semantics and in the long haul I don't think anyone does, what ends up there is what ends up there. And for Saryn, either way she is being made weaker, your method just seems so unnecessary clogged with bandaids to her issues that would only splinter out to affect other things, and why you think that ideal I still do not understand. 
7. It does not if you understand the context of the conversation, which I would hope you would since I assume you have been fully reading my responses before responding. otherwise, they're all recorded to revisit. 
8. Non-point since you already agreed it isn't feasible to do that practice on a frame by frame basis. 
9. So it doesn't factor in solo play then after all?
10. We're talking the entire structure to make whatever dream state you keep piping about.
11. And I explained how patently false that is as proven by the games own history, which is about as objective as one can get on game design impacts. 
12.  The duplicate responses, you removed them from the initial post after I pointed them out. 
13. She was not forged for ESO, in fact ESO didn't even exist when her rework was worked on, as stated by Pablo the creator of said rework. It also should be known because it prompted this entire topic, that Pablo doesn't approve of how she interacts with ESO even. No she was not remotely made with the intent for her level of dominance. She was also reworked like what, twice after her release almost immediately? It's very explicit her impact wasn't what they wanted it to be. In regards to why it takes so long for them to change her again? Only people internal to the company would know. It could be anything, from just hesitance to deal with how toxic some of the community gets over nerfs, to being occupied with other projects, to just not being sure what direction to go next with the frame if they change it. 
14. You haven't explained how they'd be reworked, or what designs for new missions. 
15. My idea is to rebalance Saryn to a more even playfield with most of the game, and repeat the cycle with the most notable overperformers until we have a more consistent state of balance for the game, which is what the game always should have done, and then from there life gets easier since DE only have to deal with more minute balancing changes. The biggest issue with DE's balance is that they let it slip so far without trying to keep things in line or even set a line, and that's what has lead to this whole mess of what is and isn't viable. Stabilizing things works, that's what made the melee rework go over so well, even if the highest performers had to get trimmed to make it work. Also seeing as we only have like 3 or 4 explicit over performers, and they only need tuning not full redesigns, no that would not take a long time to do. It certainly wouldn't even take a fraction as long as redesigning enemy encounters, creating new missions types, and rebalancing existing missions types, then dealing with all the weapon and frame rebalancing that would also be impacted by such large changes. 

1. to # 1 // Alright let me be clear then. It MAY be against the rules and I don't want to violate them in any way given the corporate way of making things vague for their own uses. I will not give any reason to think that it is even close to derailing the topic. If you want to discuss more on this then start a new thread or conversation where it wouldn't fall into a gray area if it's on topic or not. Also just because I won't explain something doesn't make it false or wrong. it's an assumption on your part. Sure proving your work is important but if it's against the rules to prove it why should I? Or maybe you could go read my post to learn these things, I did post them before afterall.
2. to #2 // That's not the goal. Making different frames viable is a side objective with reworking the game in mind overall. You can change more than one thing at once. besides if you take issue with saryn being so popular because she's powerful in so much content, then why not make her less powerful in that content when they get around to it. It's not that difficult.
3. to # 3 // In what way does providing facts about Saryn being healthy in one area and negative in another, count as distorting reality. It's a fact not an perception of words. Whichever way you slice it she sucks at boss content or nonmassacre mission objectives like spy. I also have explained and given evidence that she doesn't. If I can kill with saryns in my group why can't you? That may be the question you need to ask yourself.
4. to # 4 // I shouldn't need to present circumstances to the obvious. Limbo's cataclysm is a balloon and nullifiers are a needle. Pop goes the cataclysm. The fact that her damage is so prevalent is because of FOR THE LAST TIME the missions call for damage. Damage does not put her over the top, it's her viability for mission completion just like any other warframe, farming frames excluded. Change how the mission is completed and she falls. Nuke and CC frames have coexisted in 1 game mode you're forgetting. in raids Damage and CC was commonplace. How can you say she's the problem when she worked hand in hand with the king of CC at one point?
5. to #6 // Yeah it's why it's called an indirect nerf. But she doesn't actually get weaker. As stated in point 4 it's her mission viability. Here's an example of a change which indirectly nerfs saryn, it's silly but its an obvious example I can point out. ESO now is 100% reliant on hacking terminals, saryn is now useless because she has no natural talent at hacking terminals. congrats she's now less viable. But in no way was her damage touched meaning she's just as powerful as before.
6. to # 7 // I have been reading them, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to respond to everything. But that doesn't mean your words can't be misunderstood and in this case it felt like you said that I was fine with warframes being just as powerful as her. That's not true. I want warframes to be just as viable but not just as powerful. 
7. to #8 // How the- no? what? How is adding eximus which hits status types only going by a frame to frame basis? It's going on a playstyle to playstyle basis. If anyone here wants to go frame by frame it's you.

   On 2019-12-07 at 8:02 PM, Cubewano said:

   1. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short

   Your misunderstanding that the cycle doesn't end will continue down frame by frame direct nerfs and reworks constantly altering how viable any and all warframes are.
8. to #9 // *outside of if it's playable* means it's considered playable. I don't understand why you're so fixated on a point of solo play when were talking about Saryn and her effect on Co Op. Plus Raids were not solo viable either yet they were a lovely part of the game to those who played it. Even if it wasn't solo viable, which it is, that doesn't automatically make it bad. Can we please drop solo play now?
9. to #10 // and?
10. to #11 // How is my statement false? Warframe's history is on my side here not yours. If DPS leaves players WILL go to tanky warframes. IT's already favored why won't it be more favored is DPS leaves. The most durable DPS is the most popular DPS, saryn. Inaros, Rhino, Wukong, Nekros, and more are also seen constantly because they can tank.
11. to #12 // I haven't removed anything from any of my posts. The only edits I have done are spelling corrections. I'm normally civil but never accuse me of something I did not do. Ever. it's a blatant lie made to smear my image and make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about. If I make a fool of myself I leave it out there for everyone to see. If you've got proof I removed it then show it don't say it.
12. to #13 // The point of which she was worked on and when ESO came out was so small that I have to believe she was made with ESO in mind. If not DE is actually incompetent. No developer ever reworks a character without considering upcoming projects, trends, and recent events. ESO was being worked on for a long time so at worst they would have subconscious thoughts of that while she was being remade. I can agree that she wasn't intended on being so dominant but who's fault is that? The game was primed for her kit to work and if that wasn't considered during pablo's rework of Saryn I daresay heresy pablo dun goofed hard and only recently realized that.
13. to #14 Again off topic, gray area, won't speak on it. I have proposed those changes in different threads I created. If your curious either make a thread allowing me to explain there or you can find them yourself.
14. to #15 Saryn on an equal playing field with other warframes? why? She's DPS and thrives as one becuase she isn't meant to be on par with warframes like say vauban or baruuk. She's meant to do damage why remove that role unless you're going to give her a completely new role. We have such few DPS warframes that it would be shooting yourself to do that. Warframe variety needs to be there and she's unique in theme, abilities, role, and how she carries all of those out. Making her less focused on damage greatly changes her identity and she becomes just another frame. As I said before, the list isn't so short of what frames over perform. You think the list will stay the same if you change a popular warframed, well no that % of players who went one place will go to another place and inflate that frames numbers. Will they be shot too even though they were considered fine before? No matter what you do unless you balance missions to value more frames there will always be a gap in play rate as players leapfrog from one frame to the next.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

1. It would not, it's still in relation to the addressing of saryn's balance state and how to proceed which is this threads general focus. If it wasn't the case this entire conversation has been breaking the rules and should have been removed or addressed by now.  
2. Rebalancing the entire game sounds like a pretty hefty task, even given their history. And they would still as noted numerous times, have to work on other content, they can't just do two things for the entire year, this game relies on consistent content, and when it doesn't get that numbers drop, we've seen that quite a bit this year, and it wasn't a fully dry year either. Alongside Duviri they'll be working on new frames, weapons, the lighting system, the ui rework is still going on, continued work on the lich system, expanding railjack since we aren't getting the full thing this year, the new war, etc. 
3. Because it doesn't address what I've asked you to address, which is why a power design like that is acceptable. So either address why you think it is okay for a frame to empty rooms with a level of impunity that leaves other players with nothing to engage with or drop the discussion because you aren't making a point with it. 
4. And you failed to, because its an entirely flawed comparison, and isn't even on topic. In a debate about the value of cc versus dps and how enemies influence it, a defensive ability has no relevance. Where cc and nukes are involved nullifiers have the same effect, so then I continue to ask where is the difference then? 
5. You know it wasn't, but I'm glad you agree your methodology is far from direct. And they make her weaker by making her function to a lower level, that is weaker. Power isn't just numbers, it's interactions, we have frames that scale infinitely that aren't considered all that powerful because their interactions aren't meaningful, power has layers. If you're making her power less impactful, regardless of the method, you are making her weaker. 
6. I didn't say you did. 
7. Which one of those frames is also a heavy corrosive stripping viral nuker? 
8. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how it would be done, since again it matters. 
9. You didn't mention stuff to bring it with though. 
10. Again you don't get to decide what fine and balanced is, and you have yet to make an argument for why they are that way, you keep avoiding to when I ask. 
11. I already explained that it can, with support, and you couldn't explain why that wouldn't be the case, so you seem wrong here. 
12. Yet you removed it from your original post?
13. Dominating something doesn't mean it was designed for that purpose, otherwise all over powered things in all games were designed for those games. 
14. So your broad plan now is just lots of counter npcs and missions that don't focus on killing? 
15. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short, so I'm not seeing how it is a band aid. But I do agree nerfing and buffing isn't the only way to improve a games balance, but it is a large part of it, redesigning isn't something you do lightly, and its certainly not something you should be doing to fix a very small minority of tools, and at an express risk to the rest of the otherwise functioning games balance. 

I've been quite objective I feel with issues I've presented to your designs issues, and you've yet to explain them away so I'm obliged to believe they are still issues. And I've expressed multiple times why this solution is messy, it has nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the entirely flawed process you want to take to get there, from tearing up element balance for a handful of outliers to making a very unintuitive co-op structure to even throwing solo play to the wind, all when it can be addressed with a handful of focused nerfs to specific individuals. 

   Going to give a bit of advice, it's kind of getting hard to tell what you're talking about via bullet points. It's shorter than our other format but you need to explain in that bullet point what were talking about. It helps for organizational purposes and makes it easier to understand.

1. yes it would and even if it did I don't feel like saying the same thing twice especially when it's not needed. I've given a broad example of ideas taken from my raids and concepts and put them here. Examples related to saryn specifically because this thread is on her. Posting the entire raid does nothing but make the obvious more obvious and would take ages to read fr no reason then to clarify for you specifically. If enough people say I haven't made the circumstances and situations clear enough i may reconsider but I feel I've done a good enough job at explaining.
2. It's not like they shouldn't go back to revisit missions already, people complain about enemy scaling and endless rewards all the time. Mission types are flawed and need to be looked at especially endless ones. Why not mix some additions in there that not only satisfy the community for difficulty but take warframes like saryn down a bit. This is a multipurpose fix that works with what the community wants in more ways than one. Fixing important missions, making saryn and her class less viable, and bringing back CC all in one, maybe more if DE gets more creative.
3. I have gone over that already! She's amazing at places featuring specific circumstances where she floruishes where she's meant to. Other warframes are comparable to her so why must she draw the short straw and be nerfed when others are "just as problematic" yet nobody throws a fit about them. Saryn has no reason to be nerfed because she isn't oppressive and doesn't devalue every other warframe. She's not good at boss fights, she isn't a loot farmer, and she certainly isn't a tank or support. Damage is her only redeeming quality and horde damage to be specific. She's good where she is and that's all there is to be said on the matter. if a warframe provides the situation.
4. How did I fail at showing that saryn needs an enemy? Literally that point can't be wrong because she's got no enemy at the moment. She's incapable of being hard countered by enemies yet all other warframes are. usually nullifiers are good enough but she doesn't feel the weight of nullifiers at all. I used cataclysm as an example becuase if players build max range cataclysm nullifiers are the bane of their existence. Have you ever felt that way when playing saryn? that something shuts you down completely? no. She needs something like that whether it comes in enemies or mission objectives, which have been proven to work btw. Saryns aren't ever seen in massive boss fights.
5. Ahhh ok wait I see it ok. My bad that was a typo on my part leading to a miscommunication for a few posts >.<. sorry. I messed up here "Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things." thanks. I meant to say indirect.
6. You're right interactions are part of it, but with this change there is still no direct changes to Saryn. People can play her exactly how they do now if desired even if it's slightly less effective and required more work from her team. This is why it's called indirect nerfs. You could say she gets weaker but it makes her more reliant on her team now doesn't it? If she can't deal with everything like you want to believe she can, then this change would satisfy all players who want her not to be touched, yet also satisfy those who want her to not "kill everything".
7. "I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. " This quote here implies that I want other warframes to be as powerful as saryn. At least that's how I took it.
8. Sure she uses viral and corrosive but to this extent eximus and those are the examples because this is her thread. I gave an example of how to counter people with playstyles using corrosive and viral, hitting saryn in the process. This is a specific example and it can be replicated for other warframes and playstyles. It may hit her but it's not limited to her.
9. Solo play isn't important to consider outside of is it playable. I cannot be more blunt then that.
10. I didn't mention stuff to bring the changes with because were talking balance. Not reward. I also beleive DE can do just fine creating rewards and content given that it's their job to do so.
11. I've already explained why your explanation on DPS killing CC is flawed. I can admit it may be a small part of it but it's not necessary to correct. I explained that if DPS is removed people will just go to tanks because nothing calls for CC warframes. Even people who are respected for their knowledge of the game, trib and rahetalious said that CC isn't called for with mission objectives.
12. I didn't remove it from my post? I'm assuming you're talking about ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, and Excavation being good for saryn and good for rewards? sort of lost on this part.
13. Obviously domination doesn't equate to relevance. But she was forged for ESO and refined in it's systems. ESO launched update 22.18 of April 20th 2018 and shortly after update 22.20 of May 17th 2018 launched with S3.0 so it stands to reason she was custom crafted for ESO. Especially since this was the newest game mode and feedback of saryn and ESO mixed together so she was even refined for ESO. her post was even called "Beasts of Sanctuary Update 22.20 Saryn Revisited. If DE, and this is a big if, If DE did not make Saryn for ESO then they're incompetent and completely forgot how content plays into other content. If it also was an unintended fix why wait until now to fix it, or are they that lazy?
14. In lame mans terms yes it's half of it, but i've thrown more ideas out there. Reworked mission types and new mission types which don't feature Saryn favored content served to her on a silver platter.
15. So your idea is to bury saryn. then move to mirage, tear her apart like her previous incarnation, then kick volt's crotch? And once that's done and people start moving to tanks the cycle starts again. Then we eat inaros, nerf wukong again cause he really needs it, throw acid on rhino's iron skin, and etc etc. That many reworks sounds like it'll take years and not a year. Nerfing over and over will only push players from the game.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Unless what you're supplying has nothing to do with the rest of this conversation, which it clearly does, I'm not seeing how it breaches off-topic territory, this entire topic and our series of responses are about ultimately the games overall balance in regards to things like Saryn, and whether we should address the Saryn end or something else, you opted for the something else, anything branching from that is still on topic. Where advertising comes in I'm unclear on, sharing ideas isn't advertising, at least not in the way the rules take issue with, which is evident since forums are literally just exchanges of ideas/thoughts. So bring it at me. Or that first half as well. 

1. ^
2. I'm assuming this is about the application of the rework, is a bit unclear, but yes it'd be juggling because again de still have to work on other projects alongside any development on such a massive redesign, to keep the game going. and they'd have to continue working under the guidelines of that new balance structure until the game dies, or they go another route, to which they'd juggle that. live service games are in constant development, it doesn't end until the game ends. 
3. I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant to any of my inquiries, which you keep refraining from addressing interestingly enough. If there are similar problem factors they warrant the same need for treatment, but them existing does not erase the core issue. and as i've said many times, unless you can explain to me why their core impact should be preserved, it isn't a point to why change shouldn't happen. 
4. So does CC. Limbo's Cataclysm is a defensive ability, not explicitly CC, that's a separate ability and can also exist with a nullifier around. Defensive abilities have their own interactions with nullies, but that's not relevant since the topic is still CC. 
5. Redesigning the rest of the game is anything but direct. And having a ton of counters to her makes her weaker, and as explained before the only options to make her less viable is to bring her down to a reasonable level or bring everything up to her absurd level. You don't want the first, and I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. 
6. Because she is the select area its a problem with, and is the only frame the relies so heavily on it. And no randomized elemental counters amongst a roster of other counters in a typically randomized team layout game does not pave options, if anything it'd enforce a stronger meta since you have to reach for as much blanket coverage as possible to avoid a very inconsistent balance state. 
7. But it hasn't kept solo play in mind, or if it has you've yet to explain it. I asked how it'd work for solo play since it doesn't seem to consider it at all and you pretty much said that was unimportant. 
8. Adding lots of rng counters isn't content, and its so immensely convoluted it wouldn't be effective in achieving an overall good balance state. I also already explained game balance is an endless loop in a live service game, no matter what, so long as de add new things to the games design things will need tuning, and that's not a bad thing. You don't just create balance in these kinds of games, you have to maintain it. Also just because you think those frames are perfectly fine doesn't make it factual, and since you've avoided multiple times to answer my questions about why the state they can achieve is okay, I'm skeptical you even believe that in earnest. 
9. It's only in the past because the state of frames like Saryn, as explained already it could be the future easily. This is a non point. 
10. Duplicate argument?
11. ^
12. Says who? And why does it have to stay that way if its clearly a bad design? 
13. You keeping saying it's made with holes for DE to fill in, but like you don't have even a vague outline, you have make some enemies that counter each frame, which you seemingly acknowledge isn't manageable, and that's it. And for no express reason when there is again easier solutions that can be just as if not more effective. 
14. Again game balance is a constant task for a in development game, it is not a bandaid, it is a reality of game design, and it goes for your ideas just as mine. 

Your notions to solve the game are much smaller than you claim them to be a riddled with flaws that render them more of a problem than a solution from what you've presented. Pretty words for a very messy idea. 

 

1. (Addressing point #1) No it would be off topic, I know it would because it would become about how my raid and ideas balance out saryn and all other frames. Not only would that be long enough take take up an entire page but it would shift the topic.
2. (Addressing point #2) One of their largest content drops ever is coming soon which frees up a lot of room and they don't have many other confirmed large plans aside from duviri. They can work on that and work on and off on this for over a year. This is nothing compared to how many things they've had working at once.
3. (Addressing point #3) How is it not relevant? You say she's overpowered and should be nerfed yet why should she when there are frames that are almost as good as she is who have more uses than her and nobody complains about them. They aren't problems either otherwise we would see people complaining how mirage and volt destroy ESO. They should have the same reputation or close to the same as saryn's yet they don't. They're DPS warframes and do their job just fine.
   1. I have explained why they shouldn't be nerfed. Because nobody is complaining about volt and mirage. Saryn in specific people want nerfed because she's the most popular and has the best reputation. Saryn has the illusion of being useful in all content when she isn't. It's because her specific purpose just so happens to fit with most of what makes up warframe and DE seemingly won't develop anything not focused around killing. She isn't the problem, she's a specific tool for a specific purpose which DE has overused.
4. (Addressing point #4)That wasn't the purpose of that point. I wanted to show limbo's enemy which is nullifiers. Saryn needs something like that. Whether or not cataclysm is defensive or not is irrelevant. When did CC come into this point? I said nothing on point 4 about CC this wasn't the topic of #4. This was purely about saryn needing an enemy like limbo and nullifiers.
5. (Addressing point #5) I'm going to assume that was a typo "anything but indirect" which yes it is indirect. My ideas are indirect nerfs to saryn, but they are direct effects to the game to do so. That was the point. Were talking about saryn right? These are indirect changes to her. No these wouldn't make her weaker. How would any of the changes I proposed make her weaker? She remains with the same stats and strengths. The thing is viability of certain playstyles would lower while other playstyles rise. You're wrong and being very skew about game design right now saying there's only 2 ways to change a warframe's viability.
   1. DE already showed you're wrong here. Fire itself was changed and ember got stronger. But it wasn't just ember it was the entirety of heat based playstyles. Ember, nezha, Ignis, and more all rose in popularity post heat rework. You don't need to directly change something to make it better. You can use the game's existing systems to do so.
6. (Second point addressed in #5) I never said I wanted more warframes to be as powerful as saryn. Where did I say that? When?
7. (Addressing point #6) No, all warframes rely on status. Any CO user, Ember, Nezha Saryn, Garuda, Mag, Oberon, Loki, Revenant, Volt, Wisp, Grendel, and other all use status in their abilities. The meta uses certain status for specific actions, if you take action against the status itself ALL players feel the impact regardless of warframe because it's part of the meta. Please refer to #5.1 about heat procs. She's also not the only warframe which relies on status types.
8. (Addressing point #7) And i ignored it saying that it would be possible but is not recommended. It will be difficult. Does this sound familiar to something we just heard in a devsteam? Railjack is not built for solo and it's not recommended solo but it'll be playable. If solo becomes unplayable then fine it's a problem but I know my changes will keep solo play as an option.
9. (Addressing point #8) Yes it is content if DE releases stuff with it making us revisit old areas. It also makes gameplay challenging which is something we've wanted for a long time.
10. (Addressing second point in #8) They are fine. I have answered your questions. They are DPS warframes. warframes that deal damage and they do that just fine. Please refer to point #3 and #3.1 and I've also said why they shouldn't be nerfed. 
11. (Addressing point #9) No it can't. Unless DE decides to make missions that call for CC and not DPS CC won't ever return. I literally just explained that. 
12. 9 10 11 were all spawned from direct responses to your paragraph format. They may be duplicates but they have different evidence and prove the point all the same.
13. (Addressing point #12) Says the game. ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, Excavation. All of these games have hordes that saryn thrives off of and almost all of these are used for farming the majority of what's important in warframe. The exceptions being few and far between involving boss fights, speed run missions, and maybe the occasional spy. Many of the missions players hold as valuable saryn can dominate in and it's DE's fault.
14. (Addressing point #13) What do you mean I don't have an outline? Make content that doesn't favor saryn and frames like her in a variety of ways. Eximus that counter her, situations to make saryn more cautious, or missions that call for CC more than DPS. I've also given some specific examples of such through our debate. They are general suggestions with examples of how to go about doing so. Unless you've got an issue with that?
15. (Addressing point #14) Yes game balance is always going to happen but your suggestion is the band aid. Nerfing saryn just lets another frame replace her. You cover one leak and another is made. then you cover that up and another crack forms. and another and another. Game balance isn't only dealt with in nerfs and buffs. That's a 2 dimensional thought process. 

   it's not riddled with flaws. You think it's got problems because of your way of thinking and how you perceive the game. How in any way is making Saryn and frames like her less viable, and other more viable through challenging content a messy solution creating more problems then it fixes. It's easier said then done but that doesn't mean it can't be done given enough time.

[Endless Mission Feedback and Suggestions]

Endless Mission Fix Suggestions

   So, endless missions are by far the best missions in Warframe hands down. There are a few bad eggs either being a hit or miss. But endless missions have lacked several things for quite awhile depending on which endless run were talking about. Core parts of Endless runs are there for one mission type, but for some reason DE forgets some golden rules they established with previous missions. These core parts would be the following. Speed to Reward Ratio, Rewarding Replayability, Fun Value, Difficulty and/or Challenge, and Scaling Effort.

 

Spoiler

 

1. Speed to Reward Ratio is key for content. usually this and rewards are the first things examined in missions to dictate whether this mission is worth their time or not. Speed to Reward can also be manipulated as in defense speed nova is used to pass missions faster increasing the Speed to Reward. If players were to choose between 2 fissures be it survival or excavation players would choose excavation because you get your rewards faster.
2. Rewards are strange because while many players simply say, "Just put in X Reward and take out Y", DE is faced with issues from such suggestions. While rewards are critical and the defining thing in what makes or breaks missions as important, you cannot make rewards too good nor can you change them too much becuase it makes a domino effect through the game. More on that later. Rewards can come in all sorts of ones and zeros. XP, Focus, Standing, Resources, Cureency, Cosmetics, Gear, Weapons, etc etc all count and can be used in different missions.
3. Fun Value. This is critical to a mission's success but is unreliable. You cannot ever make something fun for everyone because everyone is different. This doesn't mean it should be ignored though as fun can be aimed towards the general population of the game to produce good results and replayability. Recent feedback on disruption shows Fun Value is important to players but this will always flop when it's stand alone. Fun Value is the icing on the cake to make people want to play it again that much more.
4. Fair Difficulty is a more delicate balance than many players want to believe is easy to obtain. Unfortunately the scale of power we have is difficult to measure and gear content towards. As a developer, the difficulty of content must be hard enough to not feel like you're a god and nothing is interesting, yet not too unfair to ward players away from content you want played. Depending on the audience and location in your game you can take more liberties and be more unfair or lenient depending on if it's at the start of the game, or meant for long term players seeking deep challenge.
5. Desire to Improve is something that DE has nailed in the past, but for some reason cannot replicate. While Void Keys vs Relics is a valid argument, one undeniable fact was that the void keys had the best drive to push players to their limits and beyond. Enemies demanded you to be better for you to get more bang for your buck. To get the most value of your keys you had to be as good as you possibly could. the Desire to improve is something that NEEDS to be in all endless missions adn there are multiple ways to include this.

   All of the above are needed in an Endless Mission, and there is some idea that these changes are simple, but that's wrong. I would love if it were simple but DE is faced with a domino effect by altering rewards that are currently in place. For one, if X Endless Mission gets good rewards it may overshadow Y Endless Mission because it's hands out better rewards. Changes may also affect normal missions such as capture and exterminate which are also in desperate need on attention. Even asking for reward increases it an issue. By altering resource drops it in turn will revalue how difficult it is to obtain and craft certain weapons and research to where it becomes outrageously easy to get what you want. This means DE has to revisit how expensive dozens of blueprints are, or sweep another issue under the rug like they've been doing.
   That being said, I want to try to suggest changes to said missions to make them more fun, rewarding, and attractive to players depending on the way you play. This post will feature not only the mission themselves, but general additions and alterations to variations. I'll also be suggesting fixes to current game modes and new takes on that mission type. The following will be showing the positives of the missions, negatives of the missions, and fixes or ideas to support said mission/variation.

   GENERAL ADDITIONS I THINK WOULD BENEFIT WARFRAME
   Leading the General Additions Is an elephant. This will be about scaling health with armor. To deal with armor scaling I find it very simply. Put a hard cap on how much armor enemies can have. Depending on the tier of mission, the cap for certain enemies will be higher or lower. As an example numbers aren't final, Endless T1 Heavy Gunners cannot pass 7.5K armor // Endless T2 heavy Gunners cannot pass 10K armor. Endless T3 Heavy Gunners cannot pass 12.5K. If more tiers are added in the future this can be increased or decreased to fit acordingly. This change fixes multiple things. For one, armor no longer scales to absurd levels but is still powerful enough where armor stripping has relevance. This also means newer players won't have to deal with such a powerful enemy if they decide to enter a low tier mission. Lastly enemies won't multiply in health to ludicrous levels but it's still much higher than corpus and infested with exceptions like elites being bursa and juggernauts.
   Adding a different type of survival for void trace farming would be appreciated as well. If the future of warframe will revolve around these nemesis and primes then we need more ways to obtain traces. As it stands we can open around 13-4 relics for 1 radiant relic. I don't want to have to spend relics to get what I want because I'm starting to lose track of what's what. Better UI would help but I'd like a survival similar to Kuva Survival. The best location for this would be Lua. By lore it logical because the moon is essentially a giant relic lotus ripped from the void leaving lingering tears in the fabric of time resulting in lua spy. If we have a reliable and consistent way to farm traces without spending relics we might not accidentally use stuff we need.
   Also please let warframes like chroma, mirage, and nezha to apply their defensive abilities to defense objectives. For some reason gara can do this without an augment, yet nezha cannot with an augment, unless it's an open world excavator.... logic. Doing this would open up more warframes for more mission types and that is what DE is going for right?

   I will now discuss the mission's endless rewards, each per mission, and talk about their positives, failures, and how they can be fixed if they can or should be. I will not be going super crazy with rewards, but i do want to add some sense of scaling, improvement to the missions, and make rewards more skill based taking inspiration from where DE has gotten things right.

   EXIMUS DROPS
   I was pleasantly surprised by this. I actually had a rework concept for a mission type involving eximus dropping mats specifically because they appear more. I'm surprised DE took this route and it got me extremely excited. In recent years, this has been the only thing to get public matches to go past 30-40 waves of defense or past 3000 cryotic. I have literally nothing bad to say about this besides it may take awhile to ramp up and this might give rise to eximus stronghold replaying abuse.
   If DE wants to continue down this path then adding 100% resource drop chance or 100% resource boost to eximus deaths, then players would want to go further in all endless missions baseline. Also IF, and this is a big if, IF DE mages to pull off railjack and it's a fun and rewarding system to play then adding 1 railjack resource per planet would greatly increase players running for long periods of time. Maybe not hours but it's something.

   ENDLESS VOID FISSURES
   So one thing I've always found irritating about void fissures is that relic opened bonus. If players are talking about fissures you'll never hear anyone talking about "oh yeah this bonus I've got for opening 20 relics gave me 100% affinity. Nobody will be trying to level affinity on these missions if they're even going 20 times making that affinity booster completely useless. They will only run that long if their warframe is maxed. Why run that for affinity or focus if eidolons and ESO exist?
   Players might consider running survivals more frequently if maybe it went up by 50% per relic opened, or increased 25% for 2 items at random. Maybe allow players to pick what boost they get. Instead of waiting 5 rounds for a relic and it being separate from boosters make it drop on the fourth relic opened and increase the boosters. Chances are that relic might not be something we care about.

   DEFENSE
   Despite what many people say I think Defense is in a fantastic spot in my opinion. it's fun value is there and has a certain influence on which warframes are taken as players will prefer khora, frost, limbo, etc etc. There's some thinking involved in which warframes are effective. Defense also has Relics on every rotation which means despite it's semi slow Speed to Reward ratio, your chances of getting relics is higher than survival. Courple that with itbeing a solid affinity and resource farmer due to condensed tiles and you get defense. DE also shakes up defense with moving operatives and evolving tiles. Even the newest updates help as DS Defense is seen as the best way to farm Diodes and Carbides. For these reasons I wont ask for any changes to the mission rewards at all but it can be improved indirectly.
   The biggest issue with defense is the monopoly some warframes have over the type. I did say it makes players think of which warframes to use but it sadly leans too much to that. Nova ais the sole proprietor of complete enemy speed. Nekros, Hydroid, and Khora are also commonplace in defense for loot harvesting augments or abilities. Also the fact that warframes like nezha and more cannot efficiently apply defensive abilities to objectives but Gara can represses their viability further. This also doesn't make sense because nezha can't put stuff on excavators normally, but in open world areas it works just fine. Inconsistency is irritating.
   Applying complete speed control to more warframe abilities would improve the variety of frames you can see on defense missions. So far i mostly see players run Hydroid, Khora, Nekros, and Nova in organized runs. DE said players feel forced to use these frames and while I agree it feels like that, so instead of nerfing, just add more to player control. Imagine Rift Surge slowing or speeding up enemies within the rift. Not only adding to build variety and his survivability, but gives both small and large void cataclysms a purpose in defense.

   EXCAVATION
   When it comes to excavation it's honestly really fun and it's rewards are decent with it holding monopoly over cryotic farming. They also have a very fast Speed to Reward Ratio for experienced players so skill and team communication does assist alot if you're able to split your group into 2 for separate excavators. This makes missions like Hieracon and Cholistan somewhat useful to players. They're mobile and make players run around in a mobile defense fashion.
   Sadly, Excavations fall pray to the exact same thing Survivals did. This isn't too hard to believe since Cryotic Front was so long ago leaving the game type vulnerable to being outdated. Rewards from Excavations are similar to survivals where they cannot grant relics anywhere on their Rotation A, but unlike survivals Excavations don't have a void sector meaning you'll never have relics on Rotation A. This cuts into the game modes potential as rotation A only gives credits and endo which are easily obtained elsewhere in mass. Lastly the Excavators themselves are so fragile it makes it almost unbearably difficult to run without a warframe who can either negates damage on excavators or defensive globes. While defense objectives are the same way there's less pressure because those have much more HP than excavators.
   One change I would make is put relics or something of value to Rotation A, whatever they may be. Another change I would make is make the health of excavators scale with enemies when they are deployed. Making them tougher to destroy in general would be lovely. Lastly I'd like excavation variation. Perhaps an Excavation Defense concept? Simply let us have one giant excavator to protect which mines cryotic and items from the ground. The more excavators completed without destruction, the more cryotic is harvested from excavators rising by 10 each and stopping at 300 per excavator. This is also affected by resource booster meaning you can get 600 per instead of 400 per.

   SURVIVAL
   Survival is the classic love of veterans and appreciated by almost the entirety of the player base because it's mindless fun and brings back nostalgia from old warframe. Multiple survivals across the system can be used for resource harvesting and in general it's just a decent mission type.
   The issues with survival are all based around time. Often we will wait 1-2 hours for our enemies to power up like goku, except he doesn't ever let an enemy power up for 4 episodes straight. Players must also wait 5 full minutes for a reward which worked in the past but now we have endless missions that give rewards in 2:30s at best. This means survival is outdated and needs to be looked at. Another issue lies with a forced useless Rotation A  for normal missions and dark sectors containing nothing of value but credits and endo which we can get elsewhere easier. The last issue I have with survival is the lack of Tier 4 survivals with only Mot in the void, and Zabala at Eris. This means survivals are terrible for endurance because there's so little variety with them. Either infested or corrupted.
   Now survival has a lot of potential to improve but it would be too much for me to state in one post. So I'll redirect you to another of my threads where I flip survival on it's head and show how ripe survival is to mission variation. "MISSION VARIETY SURVIVAL". DE needs to make relics part of every rotation for survivals or they need to make the rotations similar to Arbitrations where they will roll AABBCCC- or AABCCC-.
   Kuva Survival however I want to suggest that it increase in kuva obtained by 5 for every successful defend. It's not too powerful and would be fairly balanced. If someone wants to spend 1-2 hours in that mission farming kuva then they should by all accounts be earning more kuva than siphons can provide. This makes even more sense to add now then before because siphons have a chance at giving requiem relics where survival does not.

   INTERCEPTION
   I've been somewhat out of the loop on Interceptions so I don't really have anything negative to say about them. However they have decent Speed Reward Ratio, and they are one of the few endless missions which encourage team play being harder to control all points as one player. As it stands it's not the best but passable as a mission type. Interceptions are among the few mission types which don't make players want to kill everything, rather you want to be in control which means it's the home of CC frames such as limbo, nova, and vauban.
   Interception would be one of the few mission types that I would prefer scaling rewards on due to it encouraging team play and doesn't value damage over everything opening up for CC more than other game modes. Scaling rewards every 4 rounds to where we get 2 rewards instead of 1 per rotation would be appreciated and would add value past going round 4. However this reward would cap off at 3 rewards a rotation meaning after 12 it won't scale further. This is to prevent players from getting 10 rewards per rotation as that would break the system. This way we do have scaling rewards, an incentive to not leave and to not waste time, yet at the same time putting a hard cap on how much scaling reward we can get. Interception could also do with some variation with more defense objectives or more terminals for mission variety like A B C D E F with 3 terminals each on harder interception missions to prevent camping.

   DISRUPTION
   Disruption is unquestionably one of the most exciting modes DE has launched in ages. It's Speed to Reward is skill based making it the best option for organized teams who know their stuff. It's randomness also makes it the most replayable all of endless missions and can keep players on their toes. Lua is the sole location for lua lens and somatic fibers making it permanently viable and the universal medallions seal the deal. But it gets better because Disruption's skill based system makes it the only mission type capable of skipping Rotation A. It certainly has it's place.
   Despite all that, on launch the rewards deflated the entire premise of disruption. This has since been changed but 2 missions stick out for me to this day. Jupiter Ganymede drops hexenon which is annoying because it's an easy resource to farm. This underutilized resource has no place in diluting drop tables for disruption and only serves to irritate players. The Kuva Fortress also flops compared to survival. The reason why is because players not only get kuva from K-Survival, but normal rotation rewards. Demo units also have issues related to enemy scaling. Corpus demo nullifiers I can get behind because thematically it works. But why are grineer and infested equipped with this ability? Grineer Demo have Shields, Armor, alot of CC Immunity, sometimes flat damage resistance, and ability nullification.
   As said before, remove the hexenon of Jupiter's disruption. This is the equivalent of 50 plastids from a rotation which sounds terrible to anyone. The Kuva Fortress should also be changed to have the highest chance for Universal medallions at maybe 8-10% and Lua should be stripped of medallions. This makes the fortress a more reliable medallion farm giving it purpose and separating it from the survival while freeing up drop chance for lua lens on the moon. Lua's disruption already has exclusive rewards in lenses, don't give it medallions too. Also please change it so terminals respawn right after completion rather than a new wave. Making rewards come every 4 terminals that respawn instantly instead of 4 set terminals per wave makes it feel smoother and might increase the speed at which rewards can be obtained making players feel even better.

   INFESTED SALVAGE
   Believe it or not, this mission does in fact have positives. For one, the rotations are quite quick. Even with 1 terminal degraded you can complete a rotation in around 3 minutes. This means it's much faster *if you're lucky* than survival for relic farming. It's also got a much better rotation A than survival.
   IS sadly is restricted to 1 sector making it easily forgotten. Most of my clan forgot it existence before I brought it up for feedback on this topic. The mission also doesn't feel very fun or interactive. Worse, it's difficult to navigate due to it being an infested ship tile with infested spore and mist, lighting and UI issues/bugs, and 3 giant everblue bubbles blocking vision. Playing with friends makes it just that much more hectic. Moving on, If terminals are destroyed one wave they slow down progress and there's no way to recover except restarting which hurts people who do endless runs and cuts into Speed to Reward Ratio. Nidus is also legendarily infamous for being impossible to farm for some players followed by the rest of Rot C which carries the worst rewards of all endless missions. Any other Tier 3 endless has better rewards yet they're the same difficulty. Rewards continue to disappoint because while you complete it faster the relics have a below average drop rate of 10% making this less reliable than any other endless for relics.
   I honestly like the mechanic concept... but I'd much rather just have this mission type removed from the game. I don't find it fun and it's rewards would make sense elsewhere. The infested salvage mechanic however can be utilized to further make Eris feel unique and different. The mission is needless but the mechanic is unique so use it. Specifically this mechanic would be amazing if blended into a Defection revamp. This is honestly coming from a person who wants what's best for warframe and removing it would be for the best. Nidus can be moved to the infested lab. I do feel like this mission could be improved but it's better off being... salvaged... for it's mechanic and applied elsewhere for divesification. Open the dark sector for another more useful mission.

   DEFECTION
   Defection is a great concept *in theory* and it's speed to reward ratio is on par with survivals at 4-5 min of work for 1 rotation, or quicker if you're in multiplayer. Defection has decent world building too being the first mission introducing you to grineer defectors if you haven't joined a syndicate yet. The mission is also different from other missions focusing more on protection instead of killing making control frames viable. Unlike interceptions however Defection uses allied AI which can be healed and protected with supports bringing them up in viability making this mission a ciritical spot DE needs to focus on if they want supports to rise in viability. AI pathing has also been improved in both tile sets as of update 25.3 and 25.7 to assist the mission so, maybe, expect less glitched AI. Also due to them being dark sectors they should always be more rewarding than common survivals.
   Now, what's bad about Defection. This mission doesn't fall short in many aspects but the few problems it has make the entire thing crumble. The pathing of our lovely defector friends is notoriously terrible, although admittedly DE has made strides to improve this after 1-2 years. This change flew under the radar and I can't really test this myself in depth but during my first mission going to 16 extracted squads I had 2 defectors get caught on life support capsules. Defectors also lack the stats to survive against powerful enemies, nor can they be sped up to increase how fast rewards can be gained. Also players spreading out alters spawns occasionally leading to droughts of power cells leading to defector dying like they caught black death. We already have delicate targets to protect, we don't need the game systems to ruin it for us because of enemy spawns.
   To begin, I'd like to apply the salvage mechanic. Players will suffer some debuff which stacks over time when exposed to heavy concentrations of infested spores. Power in life support capsules will create a massive bubble where players will not suffer this debuff but they will slowly shrink over time. Players can also use the life support capsules, press x on it, to recover health and armor at the expense of some of the tower's power. Around key tiles where defectors rally there should be power cell generators, atleast 2 or no more than 3 which produce power cells at a set rate countering enemy spawn issues. As players progress through the mission they unlock more and more defectors increasing squads rescued per minute which results in more rewards. After 14 squads are rescued B will now have B1 and B2 where 2 terminals can be activated to bring 2 squads of defectors. At 21 C1 and C2 will activate. Rotation B will replace rotation A if no defectors are downed allowing players to bypass the useless rotation A. Defectors also have a 50% chance to drop 1 synthula when extracting offering an alternative to crafting. Every squad of defectors which is extracted will raise Defector levels by 1 to prevent them from being too fragile. AI and Defectors should also be reworked to gain benefits from warframes like volt and zephyr with their AoE speed buffs.

Spoiler

SYNTHULA

   Oh my favorite. Ok so widely considered useless and it is actually useless I want to give a rework to these too since they are meant to be part of defection. Simply taking the synthula on the mission with it in your gear and using that synthula near a tower will apply the effects of that synthula on that tower for 15 minutes. The synthula's effects will be applied to any defector being healed by the tower and these effects linger for 15s. Stims cost 5 Synthula to craft now.

   On the this end I'd like to revise some effects of synthula.
-Calcafin stim will increase damage resistance of Defectors for 15s and Tenno for 20s no longer slows movement.
-Adrenal stim will increase speed of Defectors for 15s and tenno for 20s no longer increases damage taken.
-Refract stim will turn Defectes and Tenno invisible while inside of Tower bubble
-Clotra stim will give regeneration to Defectors for 15s and Tenno for 20s if healed by tower.
-Infirm stim will cleanse status and give status immunity to Defectors for 15s and Tenno for 20s if healed by tower.
-Hostis stim will provide extra fire rate and reload speed to Defectors for 15s and Tenno for 20s if healed by tower.
-Stamen stim will reduce energy consumed to heal Defectors and tenno.
-Pherliac stim will increase enemy spawn rates but causes enemies to deal 3X more damage to kavor

   By making it a tower buff that lasts for all kavor it should become much more useful. You can add risk reward with optional difficulty using pherliac stim or go for endurance with normal stims. Either way it's up to you.

   ESO
   I will leave out my opinions on this as there are quite a few things wrong with it and I myself don't have much experience because I tend to avoid it, not even on purpose either. I won't speak on areas I don't have much personal experience or information in. Besides, gathering long term data of ESO would be difficult without a squad made for that and none of my friends are up for more data gathering so i'm out of luck here.

Spoiler

   A note for DE, you've made a grinding game. You say that warframe is the game you can boot up for 5 minutes and have fun then log off but that's not how the entire community acts. It;'s fine if you want to do that but you NEED to strike a balance between long hardcore runners and casual players. You need 2 different reward systems in the game for both audiences becuase the game warfame is cannot not have hardcore runners.
   One would be skill based rewards, disruption. These missions reward players the same rewards every time based off skill letting them get the best rewards. This can be further improved upon by adding more rotation tiers over time but it's a fantastic idea which works for people who don't want to play endless missions for a long time.
   The second would be scaling reward with limitation, or bang for buck. Both of these styles work for the hardcore gamers as they both push players to their limits to get the most out of it. Restarting wouldn't be worth it after running past 40-60 min. Simply put reward players that can fight super high end content with what they rightfully deserve. 

 

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

How did we arrive at raid concepts? This was in response to asking for more clarity on your actual game plan for this supposedly sweeping game evolution that would make all content diverse and engaging and ever complex. That's what I want shared in depth, not raid concepts that would sweep up perhaps a tenth of the games active base in the best of conditions. 

   Well you would know why had the first half of my post not been removed.  -.- yey. I'll be avoiding that organized shortening mechanic from now on I guess.But to share, It only makes sense if I go in depth about my raids/eximus ideas and the situations they put you under. But due to the rules of the forums I'm not allowed to do that. I can say it would make it engaging and complex but I can't say anything further beyond giving specific short examples related to Saryn because this is her thread.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

And you know what else wouldn't favor Saryn so much without including a bunch of convoluted rng mechanics that tear into other functional systems making a complete mess of the games balance? Just nerfing her into a reasonable place. I asked before so I'll ask again, how do you think all those counters you listed would function for the over all game when so much of it is only a problem for a select few? How it would impact solo play? How it would come down on DE's staff and limited resources to juggle so many pointed modifiers? How it fits into a constantly shifting and growing game and how manageable it would be in the long run? It's a rather restrictive list that requires a lot of precision what you asked, and seems rather inflexible, you have to consider how that comes down on the rest of the game when mentioning it, not just how it comes down on Saryn just for that sake of indirectness. 

Saryn also already has something like nullifiers, they're called nullifiers. 

Also why does fixing her have to be so silent and indirect? Why does effectively the image of how she is changed matter if she winds up weaker all the same? It seems like a very convoluted and childish reasoning to do so much extra work just to avoid being direct about what is ultimately being done. 

DE also cannot possibly create content specific to each frames power range with specific counters, again that would be highly convoluted and effectively impossible to keep with on scale to the level of frame and weapon diversity for the game, if that's the direction you think we should go. And to extend that into a largely randomized co-operative environment assuming you get past the explicit work force hurdles, that's just a whole other level of incompatible to deal with. How would you have these specified counters work in such an environment? Would you start regulating what frames matchmake with which others to make such a system work? How would that impede matchmaking availability/time as is pivotal for a live service game? How would affect players freedom of choice? 

I'd also greatly appreciate if you didn't ignore my points, so no, please do address solo play, because that's an important matter to the  game as well, near 20% of gameplay is done solo, that's a sizable chunk of people to just not discuss the conditions of in relation to your sweeping changes. Even DE recognizes despite this game being co-op that it should be able to appeal to solo play to a decent extent because its generally only a boon for them, and the game is meant to be fairly casual. Outside highly endgame activities DE have always kept solo play an accessible side option of play, and with those numbers I can somewhat appreciate why, so again do address their part in this whole thing. 

 As to DE fixing their game, nobody said they shouldn't. I'm simply questioning the effectiveness of your don't nerf just remake the game rationale to keep power levels like Saryn from direct changes. 

Yes enemies have become resistant to CC by being made resistant to CC, that feels fairly obvious. The impact of those immunities in overall play though you keep avoiding addressing, again and again and again, so to beat this dead horse some more, why is this different for cc than it is nukes when they have largely the same application/impact? Nullifiers existed before and after nukes started creeping up in power, CC did fine and dandy until the creeping, why? Because enemies need managing when they aren't all dying in an instant, which is what CC is good for, and without map emptying nukes that comes back in a style a reasonable bit. And aint no gun that can empty several rooms, or even a room, in an instant and without having to face and target enemies with a limited response time per being operated by humans. 

Frames like Saryn dominate a large portion of the game leaving room for nothing less than them, change that and there is room for others. And maybe DE can even lean back on some of the restrictions in other more specific modes since a more balanced and manageable state would start to arise for those frames. Less immunities and what not. 

Beyond that, your ideas would change how people play certainly, in what way is unclear because I'm still waiting on the full plan since what you've given is clearly not enough on its own. They also don't leave the frames as "healthy and powerful" as they are seemingly, because its a lot of restrictions that curb their effectiveness and application, which is the only spot of reason in all this, despite it still being far too convoluted over just a direct addressing of the problem. You also understate how long this would all take, what you're asking for is effectively a redesign of the games entire approach to combat, enemy design, co-op design, and weapon balance, which would take many many years to achieve even as a focused effort, which is again not an option for a live service game, so maybe something would come by 2025 with who knows how much compromise which is rather not ideal to leave the game imbalanced for that long, all to not nerf a handful of frames and possibly break the rest of the game. And no when it is finished that doesn't put DE out of the wood work unless they stop development on the game right after, because so long as continued additions to the games balance occur balance adjustments will continue to be needed for the game. This isn't an end all solution, that isn't a real thing. 

 

 

 

1. I will say it again.... because it seems you can't see this. I'm not allowed to say anything other than on Saryn. The ones I gave should be obvious how they affect Saryn. I have eximus for other counters but this is not the place for those. I can literally ONLY GIVE YOU THOSE EXIMUS AND SITUATIONS.
   1. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.
   2. This would not only count as maybe advertising but it wouldn't be on topic.
2. It is not juggling because for the last time it's taking place over a long time. This is on them for letting issues like this come up in the first place. If they mess up they take what's coming to them or let the game rot. That's what devs have to deal with like it or not. I'm offering them a way out which is flexible and left open to interpretation on purpose. You cannot ever ask for better than that.
3. It feels like you're just ignoring this. Saryn is not unrivaled, volt, mirage, and others can deal damage and wipe ESO and survivals just like she can if not quicker. Not only that she's less useful than those rivals in other areas. Nerfing her would result in mirage taking her place and we've got the same problem again. You want to nerf a warframe that's fine and flourishing in an area where she's meant to excel.
   1. Look if you nerf saryn, mirage takes her place. Then nerf mirage and volt takes her place. this will go on and on and on until nobody has damage left because this is how humans work. We move onto what's easiest and the most useful next. If your only option is nerf nerf nerf then you won't make any progress in the game. All the while this is happening you see tanks remain in the same dominant powerful position.
4. No, Saryn doesn't care about nullifiers. her spores go around nullifiers. They aren't a hard counter to her play style like limbo's cataclysm. He needs cataclysm for a lot of his builds. Saryn won't care if 2-3 nullifiers are on the field as long as 1 enemy has spores on them. That's not a hard counter or an enemy. Also by enemy I don't mean specifically an enemy. Whatever form, mission, or ally it may take the shape of it needs to dampen her popularity in some way. Nerfing does not supply her with such an enemy.
5. Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things.
6. You're right they can't custom tailor content to specific frames. But what about nerfing elementals like viral and corrosive applies to Saryn only? no this would shatter the meta and make people scramble to see what's good only to find that other eximus, which I cannot describe, counter that too. it's all up to play style and preference. couple that with situations to bend and favor some play styles over others and we have a diverse variety of everything to play with. positives and negatives on all sides.
7. You're right, solo play is always kept accessible just like with these changes. That does not mean our game wasn't developed with group play in mind. If solo players want to play then fine, it just means it'll be much harder. Who knows that may be what they want given most solo players run the most unkillable warframes.  But why talk solo play when our discussion is Saryn and how she "supposedly" breaks co op content. That doesn't mean i didn't consider solo when creating the ideas, but going solo is on them, not us.
8. The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.
9. That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.
10. Saryn dominates a large portion of the game because a large portion of the game is meant to be dominated by Saryn's specific role. If Saryn has a super specific role then it should come as no surprise she's powerful in missions that fit that specific role. The issue is the lack of reward in areas that don't involve Saryn's super specific role. DE is just terrible at designing that way. It gives the illusion that she oppresses others when she doesn't, DE is the thing oppressing others with the lack of content favoring other playstyles.

   Look I cannot give you a full plan. because the full plan doesn't exist. The full plan is made with holes for DE to slot things into. You know, like a child's toy with shapes to fit in except it's malleable and modifiable for DE's liking. The end result is always the same but DE can go about it however they want at a slow refining pace. I cannot give you many details because those details don't fit into this discussion.
   Your idea of "address the problem directly" is a band aid. I've repeated this so many times but another frame will just jump up and claim Saryn's crown and there'll be outcry about them too. Will the same thing happen? probably. This might be a discussion about "nerf volt's discharge it kills too fast" despite it's use as utility at higher levels.

   I may actually may not have been specific on this particular note so if this is where our misunderstanding has been then my bad. What I am asking for are specific changes which cover a large area of the game. I don't want weapon balance changes. What I do want are specific additions to the game that affect how players approach the game. That alone would alter how players mode weapons, mod waframes, pick warframes, and more. It's not me asking for dramatic shifts of stats or hundreds of enemies but specific additions that make players think differently.
   it's not directly shifting enemy balance. It's not DE taking co op design into their own hands, it's them changing the game on the enemies side and letting us adapt how we see fit. They use the current systems in place to change the game. They don't have to make so many new systems.

[Warframe is stupidly unbalanced]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Level scaling harkens back to Space Invaders, Donkey Kong, and Centipede...DE has a staff that predates many active members.  They have stated that they are not going to focus on balancing the game past a certain level of enemy.

Endgame is different for everyone.

Your complaint stems from the point where you go from the nearly invincible power fantasy of tanking everything to becoming vulnerable to dieing.

Even if DE somehow stretched that transitional curve (your complaint is simple; for you it is too abrupt/steep), the complaint would still exist for the new transition point of vulnerability to death from a single hit.

Well it's not a complete balance is it? Health still increases and becomes multiplied into EHP. It's just this way we don't have 2 scaling things continuing to multiply each other to unbelievable levels. Putting a hard cap on armor isn't a hard cap on everything an enemy does.

There are also enemies like the nox with innate damage reduction even without armor. Plus were about to get sentient soon who use armor too. if there are any high end missions with sentient then were going to have another issue with their adaptability. Damage reduction on damage reduction armor, on health. Atleast armor should be dealt with relatively soon don't you agree?

Enemy damage can be dealt with at a somewhat later point if DE wants but I feel armor at least should be addressed within the year... or however long it takes for sentient faction sectors to be released.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

She's a dps that empties rooms at a time with the most minimal of effort without having to even really target or be aware of most enemies, while leaving effectively no combat interactions for the rest of a squad. How do you figure a way to retain that behavior while making her cooperatively friendly? In most games that wouldn't even pass testing because of how just expressly over powered that is a power level, and how incompatible it is with an involved team environment. You have to afford other members in a group the opportunity to play for co-op to be a functional group experience, a map clearing spam bot that eliminates enemies before anyone has time to react themselves doesn't allow for that. And making more frames like that doesn't change the state, it just spreads the frequency of such an experience -which to be clear has nothing to do with having all useful abilities and everything to do with some of them being overtuned- all the while robbing playstyle choices which again you have noted as a thing that results from Saryn's power levels. You have still yet to explain why that impact is okay or healthy or desirable, despite constantly claiming it is, and I'm convinced it's because deep down you know it isn't something that can actually be rationally defended. It is bad design for a group environment, short and simple. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

And why not here? This is an indepth discussion and you want to avoid specifics? Where does that lead? You still haven't even explained your actually game plan or why it is necessary. Why is Saryn the cut off for what can be nerfed? You say the rebalance isn't for her but look at the list of things you just provided, game rearranging things, that target specifically things she does. Creating new units to counter her. New status mechanics. Viral/Corrosive immunities. A enemy revive system which I don't even see how that's discourage nuking. Harder enemy targeting. Most of those issues don't exist for a majority of our weapon roster, it's just when intensified to the degree of frames like Saryn that they became a problem. Why is it better to redesign all of those things that function fine without her current tier of power than to just change her power tier to something reasonable? And it's all so convoluted too, how would you possibly balance so many factors in a randomized team environment with such an expansive and ever growing roster? And how would that come down on solo players, all these limitations elements to force blanket coverage? They'd have to be pretty harsh to work after all, especially if again you want to preserve Saryn power levels. Or DE's limited balancing team? How much of this even seems reasonable to juggle for a constant developing and shifting game, especially for the long term? How do you think all of that would work in the broader picture, so many overlapping balance mechanics? 

 

 

 

   I don't want to go in depth here because this isn't about my raid concepts. It's about saryn. I can reference small snippets and examples which affect her and that's what I did, but posting an entire list of possibilities would take ages of explaining and would take too much time to update and rewrite for this forum post. I'm tired and sleepy. So there's no need for me to dive into them anyways because that's not what the discussion is here for.
   I've mentioned before that these changes will lead to a mixture of new and updated content which won't favor saryn. This means other warframes rise. I've said this multiple times. "my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from content Saryn" that was a typo my bad. shhhhhh nobody saw that. 
   My route isn't specifically focused on saryn. I leave it like this for multiple reasons. one of which is, as before, I leave it open for DE to flexibly work with and adapt to their world so they can't hide behind the shield of "that doesn't fit our world". If it doesn't fit, then mold it to fit. I also leave it like this because this isn't a discussion about "how to fix warframe's problems" rather it's how to fix saryn, if she even needs fixing. She doesn't need fixing, what she needs is an enemy like limbo and nullifiers, something that can shut her down. I'm not going to go in depth and post my ideas of how to counter the meta when it's not the point of discussion or the topic of the thread, infact it's against the rules to do so.

   Hopefully for the last time I don't have to repeat this

On 2019-12-04 at 5:49 PM, Violet_Xe said:

my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from content. Build content with representatives of their class LIKE the queen of ESO and the king of CC in mind.

   I've repeatedly stated I want to silently push players away from warframes like Saryn. I want to use her as a catalyst to spearhead change or as a representative for her AoE damage class. Build content with her kit in mind, to cover playstyles like hers, and have content play against her. Do this while keeping warframes like Vauban in mind who represent the pinnicle of CC. Juggling haha... this way lets you create ideas which favor certain playstyles over others and working this into content makes for great ways to take saryn down a peg without direct nerfs.
   She doesn't need to be scaled down, other frames just need the rise in viability. Without a call to play those frames they'll forever remain left behind. And you can't say she's too powerful either because I, a multitasking durable support nezha, can be competitive and even overtake saryns on damage while focusing more on elements and animations that look cool putting me further at a disadvantage.
   I'm also going to ignore the part about solo players because there are fixes for that. I'm not going to say them, saryn topic, but this is a Co-Op game. A multiplayer game meant to be played in squads of 4. You go at it knowing that so it's on you 100% of the way through the game.
   The part about balance is important, but... should we not expect DE to fix their game as a developer? Even then it would be over time allowing for them to make balance changes accordingly to feedback which is why I said over time. I personally do think it would work. I could be wrong, I'm not a game dev and i don't know their exact resources... then again neither do you. If we've a way out of the loop and create a permanent fix, even if it takes time, I'll take that over a bandaid nerf to saryn which only brings another dps warframe like mirage to the forefront of survival and ESO.

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Moving into immunities, I'm not even fully following what you are trying to say. Yes guns kill nullifiers, but all frames have guns, that isn't a leaning towards dps frames. If you think being able to use a gun makes a frame a dps, then all frames are dps frames. At most nullifiers lend themselves to tank frames, and yet all the same nukes are dominant. 
I'm also not sure where you think I skimmed over anything, when did i write off ospreys and how are they relevant to the conversation? Do you think they make or break CC? This focus point confuses me.
Effectively everything you listed is also immune to nuke abilities, or renders them incredibly ineffective, are sparsely experienced in general content, and are retained to very specialized modes, which are all things I already noted so I'm not sure how you missed that. So you say those aspects will kill CC, but they clearly didn't kill nukes as they are expressly some of the most used and deemed over powered categories in the game, so where is rationale in that this stuff would kill CC when the very same application didn't do so to another category? 
You've only just begun to show a route, and it seems immensely convoluted at best, nearing unmanageable, and still without an explanation why everything should change in such a way to preserve a select frames situation which would still in that state without change, be a problem. 

 

 

   Enemies have become resistant to CC over time. Because many enemies making up our rewarding core content are immune to CC, CC is effectively useless. CC fails at so many aspects of the game DE puts value in that it's not worth using. How will CC ever help eidolon fights or orb mother fights? How will CC ever help arbitration when half the time they're immune to CC. So many things don't care about CC allowing damage and tanking rule supreme. What you want is to take away damage and ignore key problems resulting in tanks having monopoly over important content.
   Also yeah guns do make CC somewhat irrelivent don't they? Why CC something if you could loose the tigris. Weapons are damage themselves after all. Why CC the enemy when your tanks can survive the impossible? If a gun kills the enemies before CC can take effect then there's no point in CC unless the situation calls for it, even then defense frames make good substitutes and often bring more to the table than CC frames.
   I used sapping osprey as an example. CC has 0 effect on their mines. They continue to pulse with lethal energy to everything and no CC protects you from that. If DE is going to release more stuff like this, like say the sentient and their little tricks, then CC will fall further and nerfing saryn won't do anything but remove more viable frames from battle. Some CC can't even chain and lock the most basic sentient enemies battalyst and conculyst.

   You're right they are special sectors but not everyone runs ESO and survival. How often do you see Saryn going up against these enemies? Now how much is CC seen in these areas? Now, follow me here. If Saryn isn't seen in any of these areas, and neither is CC. Then saryn obviously isn't the sole issue pushing CC down is she? You can't say Saryn is the thing that represses CC because that isn't true. Her removal will not bring CC back no matter how much you want to believe that. These enemies may be specific and the sectors even more so but a good portion of the player base will fight them on a daily basis making CC the last thing on their mind even if there wasn't a saryn. If situations do not call for CC it will remain forgotten.

   Now, hopefully, for the very last time I can say this. My ideas will alter how many people play dps warframes, who don't need to be directly affected, meaning they can stay just as healthy, powerful, and useful as they currently are while other frames rise in popularity and other missions can get fame. You cannot imagine that DE can manage this in a couple months. This is why I said "Over a long time" Because this tackles several critical issues in the game.
   Rather than nerf saryn, which would only result in mirage taking her place in ESO, and restart this nerf buff cycle why don't we try to find a solution. Even if this solution takes a year to make I'd be fine with waiting if DE can finally move on from an endless cycle of birth, nerf, and buff. If this gets fixed then YAY we get content made even faster than before. This plan not only gives them time for larger contents but makes it a flexible plan De can mold and bend to however they see fit. I have stated my route, both in this thread and outside of it. The only difference is how clear I am allowed to be due to the rules of the forums restricting me to only speaking about the topic at hand.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

   K so apparently this thread suddenly came back after about two weeks of nothing, cool. So I'll repost my ideas this since people may have missed this if they hadn't read the full thread. It's my fault for not putting this in the main post so here. I'm not opposed to an alternative way to obtain ephemera such as an achievement or token system. This way "I don't want duplicates" isn't an issue anymore. I'm not opposed to secondary methods but I'm neutral on how they handle it as long as it doesn't involve money.

   IMO it was acceptable in it's previous state. The fact that it's cosmetic and not an essential mod makes it perfectly fine to place it behind a hard grind wall and makes even more reason for it not to be tradeable. You want it? Go earn it.
   The reason I say "earn" is because That's how DE phrased it when pitching the idea. Players who purchase the opportunity to kill the lich with the ephemera don't deserve it. Why? they didn't generate it, they didn't convert it, and by DE's own words they shouldn't have involved trading to ephemera in the first place. If you say "they technically didn't break their word" that makes it even worse because then they framed their words to give them an out to monetize it later under the guise of trade. They pride themselves on transparency then do that?
   Extremely low drop chance is still "earning" in grinding game standards and it matches with what DE said. They specifically said that it would be from arbitration stores, drops from ESO, and challenging content in general. If you had a problem with it and knew you were going to get duplicates then you should've said someone about it back then right? You can farm for 10 minutes or 100 hours and it would still be earning in grind game standards. This has been a thing since WoW with rare cosmetic drops and players have dealt with it since then. Why are we only getting angry at stuff like this now?

   Someone said "If you want to grind for your Ephemera by yourself and place value on that grind then by all means feel free" That's dumb, not for you but for me. Why would I farm something when I say it holds no value to me in it's new state. It presents an ultimatum to players like me, will ww farm for 2-3 days, or buy it for 100p. I mean It's pretty obvious what I should and would pick but if I don't care it's worth 0p to me.
   Tradeable ephemera has also made entirety of the lich system skippable via cold hard cash. Yet again players can bypass all "endgame" content with money meaning there's no incentive to go get it and play the game yourself. It actively lets players avoid the content DE spent 2 years making. Unless you either really enjoy it or you're one fo the few to grind it for trading purposes, you won't play it. I was once an avid lich supporter, one who gave feedback and tossed around dozens of ideas of what the nemesis system could evolve into. I went from that to straight up abandoning it. Striking it makes me feel better than actually getting the ephemera at this point.
   Not only that but this is about vengeful ephemera specifically. You run into the same vengeful ephemera twice, cool why do you care. You're not losing out on anything. The lich comes with the gun, it's not like you lose out just because it comes with an ephemera. 

   I wouldn't be so fussy about this "cosmetic fluff" had they not made the face value of their pitch imply that ephemera would be seperate from trade or platinum. They said this on an informational stream then later proceeded to disrespect the time of players who killed lich for ephemera when the update first launched. I struggled against a system I had many issues with, but liked, for a week. 
   We had no reason to believe they'd be made tradeable so we farmed away. Had DE made an official statement about this shortly after the initial ephemeras launched then chances are I'd also be less irritated, but It felt like our effort got stabbed in the back without any warning or reason. They already dropped a deluxe skin, warframe, cosmetics, and made an old blood bundle there is no reason to monetize these.

   I also again want to clarify this again incase people somehow skipped it. I am not interested in having exclusive rights over the ephemera. I'm also well aware of how cruel RNG can be, more than most players. I spent 6 months farming nova prime in the derelict. I didn't just make this thread willy nilly I knew what I was posting and how some people feel. What I want DE to stick to their word, OR I want an honest, transparent, formal statement from DE why they made this change now, why specifically vengeful ephemera and not other ephemera and cosmetics, and why through trade and not some other more fair system that doesn't loop into monetization.
   If anyone thinks I'm alone and I'm just making it sound like it's more people by saying we, I'm not. This is the second area I posted this. This was also put in the old blood feedback and I didn't get any pushback and was only supported, surprisingly. That means there are people who feel the same as I do. It doesn't matter how few we are, we should get at the very least a response but for some reason I don't think we're going to get one.

[What Even Is Endgame?]

   I think many players are confusing "Endgame Content" with "Sustainable and Challenging Content". I myself fell to this trap and only recently came to that conclusion. I'm still calling my post series "A Shot at Endgame" but that's because I don't really want to change it.

   This sustainable content is what we need, content which is replayable and has a retention for players that care for it. For example, Fashion Frame has a retention rate. You pay attention and carefully fine tune your colors then show off. I've spent about 50 hours on making beautiful nezha color schemes. This would be a sustainable form of content for some people, but not everyone likes that. Some people are after actual challenging content which can be replayed over and over again. This is one reason why ascension, paragon, and seasonal resets are added in some games like Destiny 2, PoE, and Diablo 3 which are all competitors to warframe's grinding audience.
   DE seems to lack the ability to create and even comprehend such content as I recently found DKDiamante's first LoR raid and there he played with a DE staff. LoR was apparently very challenging for DE because their staff member couldn't understand what was happening even though they made the game. rebecca also took a long time to kill the wolf in tac's video where we delete it in seconds. They don't play the game to the extent we do or have the faintest Idea of how to make difficult content which is why we get stuff like solo tridelon 3 times a night.
   DE also can't seem to pinpoint how to make a goal in the game either. What exactly is the goal of warframe after you complete the star chart? Nobody knows, so we do whatever we want. A linear progression instantly devolves into a sloppy web of mixed opinions and content of were the game should go resulting in chaos incarnate. You can see that people being left to brew on their own will lose hope, poke fun at DE's expense, and laugh off their lack of rightfully deserved content. Fashionframe, Loginframe, Rivenframe, Ikeaframe, Forumframe, Lichframe, Arbiframe, Fishframe, Eidolonframe, Regionframe, THE CONCLAVE, and more.
   DE doesn't help either leaping from open worlds, to Railjack, to cinematic quests, to tile set revamps, and more. They refuse to even tell us where the game is going and when they make promises or tease stuff it's released years later. Railjack, Umbra, Vauban Rework Zephyr Deluxe. All aspects of warframe are subject to years of delay it seems, from cosmetics, to expansions, to quests, and promised and deserved reworks it's all not safe. This just adds to "what is endgame, what are we doing, why is this boring now" because nobody has any idea what DE has cooking or if it'll be any good. For any other game you can point how what they're doing and where their game is headed just by content release history alone yet strange warframe is an anomaly preaching about their transparency but won't tell us what their plans are. DE actually prides themselves on their curve balls and hiding information like lunaro but we couldn't give any feedback because it was just thrown at us.

   To actually answer your question "Sustainable Content" is replayable, interactive, and challenging content requiring an in depth understanding of game knowledge and mechanics. At the end you should get a reward which holds value to ALL players and avenues of the player base which will remain relevant for at least months after release which is called sustainable rewards. An example of sustainable rewards would be riven mods, forma, and endo to an extent.

10 hours ago, Kaizal said:

And then you got the crybaby so called "vets"(to be fair, not all that call themselves vets are crybaby's, but it sure works the other way around) that view themselves as the enlightened master race of Warframe. They used this term when they are bored af of the game, but don't know how to live without it, so they dream of a gamemode that gives them more rewards the longer they can stay in mission, is difficult, and NEVER GETS BORING(because that's what they want the most), completely ignoring the impossibility of this concept.

This breed of player is often the same that craves "scaling rewards", because being able to play for 8 consecutive hours non-stop should be rewarded more than playing 1 hour every day, for 8 days in a row(a TON more), why? Well because the difficulty should scale to justify the rewards.

Obviously they think about this delusional concept without giving it a moments though on how this concept challenges the very fabric of how this game is built. And that is, a fundamentally easy game, where no gamemode should be much more rewarding than any other, because the game is designed around an in-game economy that depends on that.

But hey what do I know, im guess im just a dumb normie pleb who fights against the people that want Warframe to be better out of sheer fanaticism for never critizing our lords, the Warframe devs. Guess im gonna do Warframe vids complaining about everything and acting entitled, while pretending im wise so the Wokeness(yes I prolly made that word up) comes to me, and then I can finally "understand" the brilliance in all these ill-defined concepts.

   Rood. We aren't delusional, we just want something worth playing... you know like games are meant to be. We're not the "enlightened master race" but we've got a good understanding of warframe's past and can call upon that. We simply have more info and first hand experience with most of this stuff than new players and that's an undeniable fact.
   Want to know why we say "don't pay attention to new players?" Well often times new players don't know what they're on about because they say "there's a ton of content what are you saying, you're entitled and dumb." It's either that or "This is too hard nerf shadow stalker/wolf please" and then it is so. When we finally get close to challenge DE putting this hard content in easily accessible areas just makes it impossible for both new players and old players to come to an understanding of one another. keep in mind we are actually entitled to some extent because we invested in this game. Hundreds of dollars, thousands of hours, and countless memories were put into this game.
   To those of us that have literally everything and I mean EVERYTHING, there is no content. Players have all cosmetics, all frames, all weapons, all maxed on forma and arcanes, all rivens they want. There's nothing to earn anymore and worse there's no fun place to fight with these powerful weapons. Now I... am not one of these players, wooow. I'm someone who only has 1/3 of the game's items but that's fine because that's all I care about. You can't demand someone to go appreciate content they won't appreciate. I won't go out and find all the content just cause it exists when I know I won't like it.
   We use scaling rewards as an example for this difficult content because it means players won't want to leave and push themselves to the limits. Saying that were crazy for liking to fight high level enemies is making yourself look stupid because it's what's fun for them. It's just as fun and rewarding as fashion frame for people. You'd also be crazy to say that because if we work for 8 hours in a survival and show flawless mastery of the games systems we expect to be rewarded more than someone who pops in and out every 20 minutes.

   I know how the "fabric of warframe" is built and I know how scaling rewards would make the game. I have literally trained myself to see from a developer's perspective and player's perspective to concept fairly and provide constructive quality feedback even if it's polarizing to many players. Gamemodes should be more rewarding than each other but have advantages over others. Rescue is the only mission to get specters, a key reason why players play it. Captures grant omni ammo restores which is why players play that. Quick and easy missions like capture, exterminate, etc etc make for quick and easy relic openings too.
   Yet endless missions get shafted with numerous issues and sometimes they don't ever get fixed and become doomed to the abyss of mission fodder like Infested Salvage. It's disappointing because the foundation of endless missions is providing scaling content and valuable rewards to test player skill the longer they go. Endless missions have by far the most potential of any and all missions of warframe but the issues created by the game systems cripple the budding possibilities that could arise from such missions. Scaling Rewards are simply the easiest, most popular, and realistic suggestion given up to this point.

   Now take this post with a grain of salt because I don't use the term "veteran" as a status symbol I'm using because that's literally what I and others are. We have information you simply haven't experienced. That doesn't mean your opinions and ideas are invalid and inferior to ours it simply means it may be biased or untrue. "Veteran" is a classification, not a title people should wear like a crown. If someone looks down on you just because they are one, fk em because new players are the lifeline of warframe. Without opinions from all playtimes and all walks of warframe the game would stagnate and rot. I'd love to deliberate on this more and go in depth about this but I have stuff to do so if I get responses I'll get back to em in a bit, maybe a couple hours.

[A Shot at Endgame Suggestions "Revenge of the Sergreant"]

Ok so i finally got idea for ephemera replacements and I made a more flushed our score system. This way even more warframes have a spot in the game because I have now, somehow, managed to incorporate grinding and credit farming warframes into the mix like flame chroma and nekros. Players looking to top the charts will need these warframes making it even harder, but it is optional.

The Profit Ephemera essentially making it rain money. This would not only have an awesome to look at but can be used to hilarious effect in role play and meme content
We have a Shockstep Ephemera from the moas, this will release a series of miniature colorable fusionwaves rippling around you as you step around.
We have an Orb Shield Ephemera which is the repelling force field from the Profit Taker but color able and smaller, orbiting around the frame with shield recharge visuals.
We have the Holograpm Ephemera based off the Hologram Eximus concept and enemies making accents invisible and the warframe emit slight god rays.

If anyone is wondering why exactly I made repalcement ephemera, well DE stole my status ephemera idea for the lich system. good for them but now those ephemera rewards meant jack all and I needed more. So how are these ideas?

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

1 hour ago, Hyohakusha said:

I love how people just completely ignore that post from Pablo saying that he talks about all kinds of random s--- in his streams and that he's not working on a Saryn nerf.

   Well yeah we all realize he said that. Comments were put on tac's video about that and msgs here so were not oblivious to that.... I hope. But this is a discussion and it can be pretty much boiled down to "Is saryn good in her current state or not". Because Pablo talked/joked about it attention was brought to it making it a topic players could discuss. In reality we could've made a thread like this for literally any other frame but the publicity that this joke got made this thead a centralized point of feedback on saryn's current state of various opinions. This is good to archive because it's feedback DE can come back to later IF they ever decide to make a warframe like saryn or rework/tweak saryn. Info is Info.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

So you're just asking for it because of this specific frame? Why? And again, how? I stand by what I said before, which is that Saryn's current power level is just incompatible with co-op play, so are you requesting this game be redone as a solo game? Or is her power level actually relevant? Do you want every frame to be reworked to behave more like her? How is her power being maintained while keeping/giving other frames identities and playstyles without being rendered inert as was noted by yourself in your last response? 

And vague sentiments aren't what I'm looking for, those can crumble easily. Give me specifics on what you want, and no I'm not going to do a where's waldo with your posts to find your supposed scattered elaborations for you, make your argument and please be concise.

Unless you can counter the impact they have as I posited in my previous response your statement is still null and void. We are arguing objective game design and effects, not forum vocality. 

Then show those hundreds with fine detail. Do a whole spread through all instances of gearing, for you and other players. It working for a veteran against non-veterans should not be a baseline to design the game around. 

Nullification was brought to the game as a direct counter to power play like Saryn, they don't need to be without it. Most CC immune enemies are mini bosses and bosses, so that isn't prevalent enough a cause to invalidate them. Same for debuff immunity which operates on an even smaller roster. It's worth noting most of those units are also designed to brush off nukes as well, yet look how prevalent they have remained. None of these points are standard enough to invalidate full play remotely. 

It will not, as shown through numerous examples across my last several responses of where support capabilities thrived in the absence of tiers like Saryn's, and with far less potent utility than she would have even as just a support. I also said nothing of nerfing all dps, or tanks, nor see how that is necesarry since tanks and dps existed full and well while supports where thriving in the past as well, they do not remotely prevent their success or value, only when the scale of nukes went up did problems arise. 

You haven't given a route, just lots of grand notion sentiments of no specific detail or direction except to do it without touching Saryn. As for tackling everything in one go, I'm pretty confident rebalancing a handful of over powered frames is far easier done than vaguely remaking the entire game per your vague dream work, and far less messy in the long term. 

   Argh this is so frustrating >.< Also sorry for the late response, life stuffs.

   No, I'm not asking because of this specific warframe. She is one of many frames which I suggest content for and because she's popular. build content which either favors or doesn't favor her kit by silently pushing players away from her for said missions. She isn't incompatible with co op and does her job as DPS effectively as others in this thread have stated plenty of times. She is a dps and does dps. I've also brought up that she isn't unrivaled in dps and she has points of weakness so she isn't oppressive.
   Would I want more frames to act like saryn? yes, yes I would in the fact they use all of her abilities and has build variety. She's a healthy concept with game modes where she excels like any other warframe. I'll carify again I'm not against a nerf directly to her but the changes being suggested have a high probability of crushing her imo and I'm not alone in this.

   I'll give you specifics but if you want me to go in depth about all this then you're not gunna get it here. that's where I draw the line. Buff toxic and viral eximus to prevent viral and/or corrosive. Make new eximus which create an aura of -status% encouraging critical builds or vice versa. Make eximus which revive up to 3 times on death pushing players away from a nuke charge playstyle. Make new eximus which distort and make enemies harder to cast on or spread effects like invisibility auras. Make new enemies that ARE affected by CC but have resistances to damage. Make new AI and abilities for daily enemies. Make new health types that have either communities to said status or special quirks like a highly upgraded shield that is completely immune to status used on hyper elite corpus units. Make raids which focus on thrall hordes but also contain a focus on mission completion, objectives, and boss fights that have literally hundreds of millions of health. Radiation also turns saryn into the a backstabbing bish which means say a defense mission has a 100% chance of radiation, she's avoided at all costs like kohra or ember. Rework some missions, which need updates, such as defection, capture, excavation, and more which don't have nearly as much impact on killing. or perhaps make one that doesn't focus on killing at all like spy. make these missions have good rewards on par of quality with ESO. These all impact her in different ways than smacking her with the nerf bat, instead silently pushing players away from Saryn.
   No I won't go through thousands of missions to gather and record data for you and you specifically. I've got other games/things I wanna play/do. I'm not the type of player who will go and gather 1000+ mission results because someone asks me to prove that any frame can be competitive against saryn. That's called being unreasonable and untrusting because in the end it's up to you whether you believe me or not. Even if you don't believe me that doesn't make me wrong, it just means you don't believe me.

   Scramba are fine. However nullifiers are unfair giant bubbles which hurt CC just as much as DPS playstyles but less so DPS because DPS frames actually kill the nullifier creating said bubble. They are a universal boon and whatever they were intended for they obviously hit all of our abilities and put a focus more on weapons which is, guess what, daaaamaaaage. Not only do they encourage damage but because you can't shoot into those bubbles it also pushes frames to tanks that survive such damage with arcanes and base stats like Inaros, Wukong, and Nidus while CC and support get shafted.
   I've also posted before about how nullifiers can be altered and changed to become fair. Some nullifiers can erase abilities but not bullets. some erase projectile powers but not nonprojectiles like cataclysm. I could go on but I'll simply generalize. Add conditions to color coded nullifiers for game fairness. Yet you seemingly skimmed over the fact that there are things deployed into the field which don't care about CC like sapping osprey traps.

   Onto CC immunity. Tell me, what enemies are immune to CC again??? Orb Mothers and Raknoids "posed as challenging" // Eidolons, "arcanes" // Vomvalyst, "Eidolon Helpers" // Nullifiers and Demo Units "tanky everyday content in important missions" // Capture Targets "quick relic runs" // Lich "kuva guns" // Thralls "challenging". // Plague star "easy reskinned content for repeat rewards" // Arbitration Drones "fk all". How many enemies in our IMPORTANT content have and apply CC immunity? Quite alot and infact you'll not only see these enemies daily but taking other bosses into account almost every day. Many of these enemies won't care about CC or debuffs either.
   Notice something? How many of these enemy areas do you see Saryn? No, you see Volt, Chroma, Mesa, Harrow, Revenant, Gauss, or others. She isn't perfect at all the content we care about and some players even say they don't see her all too often. The same goes for me, I don't usually see them.
   Support capabilities thrived preS3.0 but that's the past. Warframe continued changing over time and the first steps of CC falling in popularity were already there. What is harrow and trinity to healing return, desecrate, energizing dash, and more? Tell me if the game slowly oppressed CC and these important enemies are immune to both CC and debuffs? what's left? Damage and tanking. If damage is gone... well, you know what happenes if it's all not dealt with at once. Even if it is I've already said It'll be one messy launch.

   I have given a route, but I've left it open and flexible for DE and others to put their own spins and twists on it. Proposing a specific narrow route limits creativity and it'll most likely get ignored. my route is add content to the game which indirectly impact and silently pushes players away from content. Build content with representitives of their class LIKE the queen of ESO and the king of CC in mind. launch difficult content like suggested RAIDS PLEEEEASE. Yes those things, actual hard raids against a boss with hundreds of thousands of health and special abilities when you fight with 8 people, saryn will not be as viable there if it's built right. But guess what will be viable, CC and Support.
   Yours very well might be easier but it'll be less streamlined and sloppy and focus on regression instead of progression. Slowly adding content allows for feedback and refinement. Adding all of this at once overloads the community and means DE needs to fix all of these things at once leading to oversights and ignoring some bugs because they're deemed less important. It's also not vague, it's open and flexible to allow DE's teams to work and concept and create because they like doing that. If our ideas won't fit their world then suggest a model and let them mold that model to their vision so DE can't hide behind the "it doesn't fit out idea of what warframe is meant to me" mantra.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

8 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

I already expressly explained to you how your ideas are terrible in the long term, and completely unsustainable, how you think I'm on the short term wagon here still is beyond me and unless you are actually going to put into words how that is true, like I did to your focus on the short term, you are just making completely false statements and ignoring my words. But again, redesigning the entire game around a frame is not sustainable no matter how much you loathe the idea of nerfs. 

You also keep talking about this visionary dream state for Warframe by revolving it around Saryn, but what actually is the game plan for this perfect world? You don't say what should be done instead, except ~change~, what change? To what parts of the game? What frames? Weapons? Game modes? Co-op? Solo play? Why does it revolve so heavily around Saryn's current state? Where are the specifics, like any at all? You're just slinging pretty words with no substances behind them. 

In regards to there being others nukes, yes, there are, and they are problems as well and I never stood to the contrary, but two wrongs don't make a right, and keeping the most explicit example of the problem around doesn't improve the situation. If you have multiple wounds, you don't refuse to close up any unless they can all be closed up at once, that just puts you are much further risk of fatality. She is a domineering force that can wipe maps with unnecessary ease to levels of overkill that is harmful to this game and its co-op experience, and unless you want to explain how that specifically is okay, then you aren't really making a point to the contrary here. It's still the same problem to be dealt with. 

I also don't care you out damaged randoms in a mission with no information on who you were playing with, their builds, how much effort they were exerting, you progression in the game, and so on. Congrats, maybe you did more damage than a Saryn who was afk or new, with min maxed gear and rivens, while they used a low range melee build and touched spores twice, it means nothing.

Likewise I already explained without nukes like Saryn the support category would be viable again, it used to be the meta for that matter until nukes made cc and all ranges of support far less meaningful. Saryn is only useless in a support state when her state exists, it is a self fulfilling prophecy and its nonsense to argue against changing her when that change breaks the cycle. All you're really listing here are further reasons why this change should happen, and is better for the games overall health, so many things have lost value because of nukes in the tier of Saryn, so many playstyles and even roles, and they could be reinvigorated by changing that, shouldn't you as the long term thinking see the immense value in that?  

   I'll say it again I'm not asking them to remake the game every time an issue comes up. The idea is to blend what would be indirect nerfs to her as content through warframe's future launches, future content. This way she isnt touched but her viability falls while other warframes rise.

   I have said what should be done. Look back to page 17 where I said this "Even if DE did want to nerf her they could do so indirectly with new enemies, new health types, new mission types, and actually difficult bosses. In certain circumstances she is absolutely terrible like in radiation hazards where saryn slips once and oops, her team's been wiped by her own hands. Or fighting massive health bosses she will falter because she isn't a single target damage dealer." I can elaborate further but I don't need to because I've already talked and posted about these changes in a variety of other topics and the quite should get the point across just fine.

   I said that there are warframes that perform almost as good as she can. They aren't problems because I don't hear people complaining how mirage's explosive augment is OP or how volt is the destroyer of ESO. They aren't wounds that need to be closed because they aren't wounds at all or else we would be hearing about it constantly. Mirage, Volt, and Saryn all need areas where they can't wipe maps and those areas need to have difficult content so they don't instant wipe stuff and have to think.

   I don't have info on who I'm laying with you're absolutely right. This screenshot is just one random picture I took against a saryn. But it's one of hundreds i could have taken. many of those hundreds i can guarantee you run the builds you talk about and I still beat them. With various MR ranks, playtimes, builds, and more my efficiency allowed me to be competitive with ALL of them. Saryn's who both have tried and not tired. I can recall an exact example where one of my friends, a really good player, was confused at how I was actually beating up in damage in a 2 hour lith survival for the majority of the mission. I know that I can be competitive.

   No that's still wrong. There are so many things that prevent CC and supports from coming back. Some enemies have nullification, some enemies have CC and debuff immunity, some things enemies deploy aren't affected by abilities, some enemies have innate damage resistance which can't be removed through corrosive. tanks will also be the only class anyone will want to play if nukes are removed. CC and supports are still negated by these factors. Simply removing nukes is one part of the problem so I'll repeat myself putting them blame entirely on nuke warframes is not the right thing to do.
   The change you want to do will make her useless alongside everyone else who is affected by these things that won't change unless it's all changed at once. I'm not listing reasons to actually do these changes. Are you really willing to nerf all nukes, dps, and all tanks and go back to change nullification, armor, resistances, and more all at once? That's all required for the CC frames to come back and if that's all not done instantly then saryn and the rest of the warframes just sit being unviable while the tanks run the game until DE decides to get around to it. Or, my plan would involve slow changes over time to both hit nukes/dps frames, create content, and bring other frames back over time by fixing and adding giving DE time to work on other projects and gather feedback as updates are sent out.
   That's not to say that yours doesn't have merit, It's just personally I would prefer my route over yours. If DE really does feel like tackling all that at once go right ahead, but if they aren't willing to do all that at once then the game goes through an age of tanks where being harder to kill reins supreme. If you don't believe me just watch this. The title is misleading and it does seem like I'm proving your point but listen.

Spoiler

 

If DPS is gone of the 2 dominant playstyles and tanks aren't dealt with, scaling isn't dealt with, and all the other issues aren't dealt with at once, issues will surface almost immediately.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I am not twisting your words, and I don't enjoy doing this either. Look above. I praised your long post. But the two are not comparable. It would be better if you compared the videogame reference with another videogame reference or to something far less political and far less drastic than killing someone in real life.

Your mother, Nova, goes to the market and buys an orokin cake with gold leaf for her birthday tomorrow. She puts the cake in the fridge until the party. You, Saryn, see the cake in the fridge and it would make you really happy if you could eat it every though it's not yours to eat. But you eat it anyways and when your family comes around there's no cake and your whole family is mad at you. But you share the decorations with them, pretty plastic rings. Just because the cake is there and it makes you happy to eat it doesn't mean you should make other angry by eating the cake even if others get the reward.

is that a little less exteme for you? or maybe a more realistic one.

You're a WoW player and a competitive raiding guild. Shortly after release, your guild starts the raid and your party is suddenly super angry with you. You secretly were using an item which 1 shots all bosses because an admin accidentally gave it to you and you ruined the whole experience for them. Every other guild is angry with you because you stole all the world firsts because you were too strong and the whole experience is ruined because all the enemies are already dead.

Just because something makes you feel happy and is fun for you, doesn't mean you should do it because it can piss off other players. Like Saryn eating cake = the enemies of the game. is that better?