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master_of_destiny

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Posts posted by master_of_destiny

  1. It's been a month without any hotfixes...on a supposed spool-up where all of your resources are focused on getting ready for the next launch.  In that time, this game seems to be buggier than ever...  I'm not submitting this to the thread for bugs because I expect it to be entirely ignored there, because there's never any obvious sign that bugs are being worked on.  As such, this is less about asking for a solution and more about compending the issues.  

    1. If you die in Duviri, and cannot resurrect before the timer goes off, you cannot summon a warframe with your 5 without instantly dying.  That's right, press 5 to die.
    2. If you die while facing the Jackal in Duviri it can despawn...leaving you on a floating island without a way to progress.
    3. Speaking of Duviri, we are back to sometime being reward locked.  3 Arcane Intentions in a single run is statistically insignificant, but yet...
    4. More Duviri...why not?  You can be teleported at random when entering a gate.  Went to the undercroft, spawned a white screen, and wound up half way across the map with the map and other features broken.
    5. Moving on, the netracell is a great weekly...until you have 3 in a row break at the entrance door.  Yep...that speaks volumes when the door won't open despite 2 instances of each key.
    6. Two instance of each key?  Yep.  When console players inevitably start dropping you have to have your own keys...because if they drop they'll kick you to your own instance and not let you simply have the key auto-assigned.  Yep, mission failure.
    7. Oh, but those rewards.  The netracell is great if you get good rewards.  Less so when your rewards are meh.  The amount of grinding necessary to unlock the faction isn't enough to guarantee that you get all of the arcanes...but when your reward for a timed weekly exclusive mission is the same as you can purchase from much easier to obtain standing points it's difficult to see this as anything more than a bad reward.  Note that this includes both arcanes and the adapters...so the common rewards literally make grinding for the faction worse.  This is why I've never purchased an arcane adapter...because eventually the netracell will make them worthless.
    8. Speaking of worthless, I know why you don't want to offer archon shards and tauforged shards in the netracell.  It's another infinite grind if you've only got 104 per year, with only 52 having a small chance at being tauforged.  If you suddenly can get about 4 per week, with 1 being low percentage tauforged and 2 being vanishing percentage tauforged, then the grind starts to be much lower.  4*52 = 208.  You only have 50ish warframes, so you need 250 shards...oh my.  You could outfit all of your warframes with something in about 1.25 years of grind...or 1.3 at the rate new ones are coming out.  Then what is the evergreen grind?  Well, the combined shards are interesting and double, quadruple, or octuple the grind if you require 4 base shards to make tauforged.  That means another 2-4 years of grind to stave off the grind-hards.  Do you really believe that we don't see this...and do you really believe that some of us don't engage with the systems explicitly because we see this? 
    9. So...about the content part of this game.  You've doubled down on the "but."  Deimos is regular game modes, but with a small twist.  The netracell is basically corrupted keys, but not limited to mods and time locked.  Steel Path is literally the regular node but with numbers much higher and requiring more tactically focused play (ie, you need to pay attention to elements and armor instead of just choosing a big enough numbers gun).  The incarnons are upgraded weapons...but only for a short time after charging.  Do you guys have anything left?  My personal suggestion is that instead of trying to "but" us into submission maybe you make old game modes suck less?  I'd love it if I didn't have to hate sharkwing because the best mods with huge costs didn't suck so bad.
    10. Finally, let me end on a positive note.  I...want to suggest Deimos's expansion was a relatively good launch.  A new weapon, a bunch of new mods that make it amazing, and something resembling a reason not to simply hold down melee button to win with Tennokai.  It doesn't feel like you guys gave it as much thought as you should have, but the Grimoire and Tennokai have potential to be rewarding.  There's now an argument for Arcane Energize or Zenurik not being necessary, so maybe this is a turning point where the space ninja game gets back to being about that...instead of fishing.  

     

    Unfortunately, we'll know soon.  You're now competing against companies that do almost everything you do better.  You've effectively silently raised prices on content that is a decade old.  You are releasing content basically twice to three times a year, with quarterly footnotes for frames and weapons that aren't enough to change the tide.  As AAA gaming continues to fail, and the developers escaping that ship continue to found their own new vision of gaming, we'll get to see how you navigate competition.  Hopefully it's by listening to complaints, instead of telling consumers what they want.  That said, I'm looking forward to how Soulframe is either DOA or cuts into Warframe resources.  We'll see if this is another DE non-launch, or if it's the coming of the studio into having more than one active IP.

    • Like 2
  2. 12 hours ago, Binket_ said:

    Oh, I never meant to imply that.
    ... it might come off that way since DE is ungodly tone-deaf when it comes to that though, happens every now and again...

    "It's subjective, so your argument is null" is often what I get from when it's brought up like that.

    Maybe, but you must realize that while all sorts of people have different experiences and thus different looks on it?
    There are logical "patterns" that can be used to help estimate how people will react to it.
    Will it be perfect every time? No. Does it help in honing a better result? Yes.
    Besides, if the subjective nature of things denied anything of relevancy?
    The point of the forums becomes redundant because feedback is usually built ON such anyway.
    It's how we FORM our opinions that matter more. Granted, in hindsight? Probably could've made the last comment of mine better. Oh well, it's already there so best to improve from before.

    Maybe the "rule of cool" will work for the first 3 or so uses of something in Warframe... but after that, it starts wearing so thin that it becomes obnoxious.
    Why would I use an Archgun when they're not only less powerful, but less diverse.
    We got Mandonel last update and the only other "unique" gun I could think of was the Fluctus.
    There was no reason to use the Imperator, Dual Decurion, Corvas, Velocitus, etc. when there's a Primary of each that's not only easier to get, but does better results.
    Sure, Morgha, Mausolon and Cortege have some unique functions and Larkspur has that chaining beam... but they still often feel inferior, both in usage and result.

    Summoning an Archgun at that point mainly devolves into...

    • Do I need to level it?
    • Do I use to try fixing a bug? (More often than you'd think)
    • Is it the only option I have left?

    ... which aren't exactly situations I use for fun. I try, but it just doesn't work.
    This is just one example. "Rule of Cool" is supposed to be engaging, yet DE keeps insisting otherwise.
    The reason for that is because it wasn't good to begin with, it just sounds good.

    The raw parkour gameplay is genuinely good. It keeps interest involved BECAUSE it's good.
    Things like Gloom get boring because it's incredibly shallow as an ability. It's only used because it's so ungodly powerful, not because it's fun.

    Are you referring to the first one or the second?

    I am well aware the two are VASTLY different games.
    I have not played the first, but I have looked at it from time to time.
    PSO2 was quite grindy in a sense, I won't say it was anything close to perfection.
    Rather, I enjoyed it for a similar reason to Warframe.

    For what it did right? It did REALLY RIGHT.
    When I went through the story? It was super shallow and I didn't like it right away.
    ... but I can't deny that as cliche as it was? I had a good time with it.
    A lot of it boiled down to presentation and just... knowing when to be silly with it.
    It was unapologetically corny at times and charming as a result.

    The music is top-notch, SEGA simply cannot fail in the department-- no matter how bad their game is.
    Seriously, that's kinda a constant for them. Respect to their music department, they know what they're doing.

    Gameplay was as much as a cannon fodder spree as Warframe if you really got down to it.
    The enemies had a lot more "reaction" to what you did though, often resulting in different AI depending on combat.
    Breaking the fins of land sharks could make them slower in the sand or cracking the shells of crabs would make their spin attacks emit frothing bubbles.
    Mechanical enemies sometimes left exhaust ports open after attacks that functioned as their weak points.
    Not only did they all make sense in terms of actual combat, but also in terms of how they lived too.
    Sure, elemental weaknesses existed too-- but it wasn't always just "Use Viral+Slash for everything", shocking a mechanical enemy would put it into a wild frenzy for instance.
    Every enemy felt like a puzzle in a way, a simple puzzle but one you could integrate into bigger mechanics.

    Combat also varied dramatically based on what you used.
    While the weapons you used often got replaced for "the next big killstick", they were solid enough to be engaging.
    The environment and enemies felt like they were made to counter specific things, intentionally so.
    This encouraged players to be varied in what they pick, you could do it solo-- but it's more fun in a squad.
    It's also why NGS failed on it's own, it forgot what made the base game interesting. (Though, there's a lot more to it. Greatly oversimplifying.)

     

    I can't speak for PSO1- again, I haven't played it- but I have played PSO2. Both before and after NGS.
    I sure can't go back to the game in it's current state (bittersweet as those memories of it were), but I know what made it enjoyable.
    ... and I mentioned it because there's a lot of things to learn from it that Warframe could benefit immensely from.
    Warframe doesn't need to PSO2, I ain't asking that. I'm asking Warframe to kick it up a notch and do better.

    PSO1 from what I heard was a lot more clunky, so I can safely say it's not as suitable for a game like Warframe. Still fun in it's own right, but not something I can see working for here.

    Which is why an understanding of "what the hell are we doing with the game" is needed.

    There is a reason why players feel like they understand the game better than the devs.
    It's usually because those dedicated few actually LOOK into these things.
    Often times out of passion and less because the paycheck required it.

    As much as I disagreed with the notion of DE using the playerbase as their "play-testing"?
    It does ring true. There's no better play-testers than those who... well.. PLAY the game.
    Devs can only account for so much, so it's why player opinions ARE valued... or at least are supposed to be.

    Which is why I'd be MORE than happy to fill in DE on any questions they'd have on the game if they asked.
    "How are people enjoying parkour?", "What do you plan to do?"
    I think the survey things are a good start, but they have the same flaws that surveys usually do.
    You can often ask people who sincerely don't give a damn or just input "the funny answer" to be that guy.

    Yeah, some people think I write walls of text-- you kinda need to if you want something to be known.
    If we could upload information directly into people's heads? Schools would be HELLA out of business.

     

    All these "rule of cool" things just feel like vague attempts to keep investors invested.
    At the cost of sanity. Both in devs and players alike.

    I get that though, you can't satisfy everyone and those investors don't really care.
    "So why not look to those that DO care? Ask how they want it to work and try to emulate that?"
    Again, kinda the reason the forums exist. Will we give a good answer? Probably not, but it's our job to make it as accurate as possible.
    And for what it's worth? May as well give it a shot, I'd like a better time anyway.

    DE is a company though.

    People communicate, exchanging information where it's needed.
    Companies keep their secrets and produce questionable things.

    If all I can do is scream into the abyss for a better game?
    I'm going to spend the 15 minutes I would've used being annoyed at a Revenant... and instead point it towards somewhere more likely to make it better.
    That being DE, who's job is making a game that is entertaining and engaging. Like any game.

    While how they choose to do that is up to them, I also believe that for all the human mistakes they make?
    They're capable of improving BECAUSE they're human.
    If they've improved is arguable. Changed? Yes. Improved? Maybe.
    I don't expect perfection from DE, rather I expect things that shouldn't be difficult (I.E. Auto Melee Toggle) to at least be done before it becomes a much bigger issue down the line.
    ... and we all know it WILL become an issue down the line. It isn't the first time- hell, beyond triple digits- it happened.

    When I'm disappointed? It's not because they're doing things I don't like.
    It's because the logic behind such is either left to guessing (which is never) or outright conflicting with things that already exist.
    DE is a company, yes it's made of multiple people-- but those people need to WORK TOGETHER. To DO. A. JOB.
    Group School Projects are infamous for a reason after all.

    If they can't do their job, who's fault is that?
    I don't work at Digital Extremes, so I can't say who's fault it is.
    If I worked there? I would say who's it is, because a problem needs to be addressed.

    It does until I find a better game to play.

    ... and if DE thinks the chance of a game better than Warframe showing up is "zero", the future is made so that anything can happne.
    Small percentages to a degree where it'll never happen? Sure, but it's never "zero".

    Especially if you get one dedicated person enough to say "This is stupid" and make their own.
    Talent and skill are exceedingly scary things in the hand of someone with a capable toolkit.

    "Divine might is scary, but nothing is scarier than a human with a fixated goal and the means to achieve it.
    Worlds shatter when these beings arise, so while mortal-- sheer tenacity brought them the will to defy mythology with their own two hands."

    I've been there, done that.

    Won't be the last time either, I've made concepts on weaponry-- both ideas for new and polish for old.
    I analyze, but I also adapt. If something changes, I go to see how will effect things beyond what initially changed.
    These hedge-cases are often things DE can't always test for, so it's often how I find "what's intentional and what's not"... usually in a "quite obvious fashion."

    I look at what DE has done and try to shape ideas or suggestions in ways that make sense to them.
    Gunblades getting a reworked sounds like a big effort, but if I ask to only change two of the inputs? It's a lot more feasible.
    Revenant getting nerfed isn't a huge deal. You can revert the changes that made him ungodly powerful and it's be perfectly fine. (I'll even add the details as to why.)

    I am no stranger to articulating my thoughts, but there is a time where it feels like logic and kindness simply fails.
    To that, what else do I resort to but emotion? It's been shown by them time and time again that DE only reacts to volatility and that's upsetting to me.
    Hence, when I ask "Can you add a toggle for Auto-Melee?" and it's met with radio silence? How simple the fix must be makes me (understandably) livid.

    I'm not asking for another Warframe rework here, Auto-Melee getting a toggle should've been something that was there to begin with.
    DE is no stranger to Accessibility toggles, especially gameplay ones that impact a large portion of the game.
    Such as "toggle to sprint" or "hold to mash key" things, it's not unthinkable to add one for Auto-Melee.

     

    So, lately I've been saying to them:
    "The more you don't, the harder it'll get.
    There will come a point when it becomes a problem too big for you to reasonably fix and that will bite you hard in the future.
    I'm not asking maliciously, I'm asking because I don't want to be the one saying 'I told you so' at the end.
    It's just not fun anymore to say that, it's gotten stale.
    ... like the game."

     

    TLDR: I wasn't exactly mad at you specifically for that, more that I think the way you described it doesn't exactly fit DE. I sent all my passive spite to them where it's earned, which is an unfortunate byproduct.

     

    Let me short this.  You seem to really think this forum will be read and acted upon.  You...may want to recalibrate that expectation.

     

    You seem rational.  I'm glad we can have a discussion.  That said, I offer my perspective as warning after years of this...back when prime junk littered my inventory because the dozens of braton parts couldn't be sold to anyone and Baro didn't exist to trade.  The reliquary, an idea proposed years before it was implemented on Maru's relay, was an idea shared here...if that helps frame that it takes years for anything to be acted upon...because at the time "unvaultings" of 3 month made sense...until they had to do double unvaultings...where the cost was slightly less than a new prime access for 2 full frames and content packs...until DE walked that back with the much crappier (for value) regal aya.

     

    PSO is...not a new game.  Phantasy Star has had many iterations.  I played on Gamecube with the expanded content of 1+2...though I'm aware of there being a more recent release.  I...well, I remember having an android and hiding in a corner to get a three round burst of the guns for next to no damage, skittering across and arena, and repeating.  This is while brain dead AI walked the shortest path between their spawn and my position...because most enemies were melee.  See below, the 10 minutes of gameplay versus the "Epic" Dreamcast sales pitch of the same content.

     

     

    I...want to close with sorrow.  It's sad, but DE has not cared about individual input in years.  Unless you're a youtube personality, you're about as likely to be listened to as you are to ascend into the air under your own volition.   The community asks for cosmetics for prime access for years and it's impossible...until Jim Sterling asks for it.  Rhaetalius criticizes their moderators for being a clique, and DE pretends it's personally insulting until their entire community tells them that their response to facts is not rational...and they need to fix what he said.  A black market for rivens and price manipulation is discovered...and they pursue a ban on the person who scraped chat to demonstrate this because "he didn't follow rules" when they previously claimed nothing could be done to prove such a thing.  DE...has a history of not listening, because what they think is cool matters more than what us plebians want. 

    A few years back this realization broke me...then the next one where people actually rewarded these decisions broke me further.  Today I cope by realizing that their 5 second loop of gameplay is rapidly being outdone...and the fishing mini-game isn't solving it.  As such they're bleeding...and people like Pablo can only patch things with their reworks.  In short order they'll shed all of the people who jumped aboard this game's train with PoE...and at that point they'll have to listen to the whales...who by this point largely are after core gameplay because it's why they started playing years ago.  I hope that then we'll get the pre-PoE DE back...who gave a crap about feedback.  Until then, it's just yelling into the void here...and I'm hoping that you realize I have nothing to gain by this sad realization.  This is meant to preserve the hope of better in someone else...because mine checked out.

  3. On 2024-01-11 at 8:30 PM, Binket_ said:

    ... however, what they define "cool" is usually soul-suckingly boring or generally obtuse.

    Yeah, Jackal sounds fun on paper... until you're fighting it and it's sitting on a wall for 3/4th the fight.
    Better yet? Why not put it in the undercroft where none of it's code is gonna play. Makes sense, right?

    Necramechs SOUND cool, but if you want "big mechs"?
    I think putting it in a game where "mobility is key" has been the main enjoyable factor for literal years (and for good reason) ain't it.

    Railjack would be cool.
    If DE didn't rail it into the ground with release so buggy that it defied pretty 30% of the code at any given time.
    You were lucky to make it back in one piece and it wasn't because of the enemy.
    Don't even get me started on the "rework", Sevagoth is a mistake for a reason.

    Any "new" content always falls into the situation of "can X weapon kill Y in less than 3 seconds?"
    If so, ship it out anyway because god forbid we have nice things.

     

    You want cool?
    A game that was (long story short, they basically forgot they were making a game and not a bootleg VR chat) great for it's amazing and engaging gameplay, towering bosses and classes that could do this and every second was as fun as it looks:

    THIS.
    This is cool.
    Yes, I'm sharing this ALSO because I like this class a lot. Hell, I'd love if Gunblades took some inspiration from these.

    Warframe ain't it.

     

    I don't deny "Rule of Cool" being a factor, but they do so in such asinine and crazy ways that I can't exactly see it being a viable idea behind their choices.

    I'm not surprised, it's easier to censor the problem than actually fix it.

    Tyrant Ruling 101 after all, "nobody can tell you that you're wrong if they'll die in the process"
    "What's a few bodies in the name of my ambition? They were scoundrels anyway, just obstacles."
    "Who cares if they think we're only in it for the profit? We pretty much are anyway, so let them!"

    Great stuff all around, DE could prove otherwise-- but I think they're too busy wondering how they're gonna nerf Oberon for literally no reason that any sane person could come up with.
    That or buff Sevagoth/Octavia/Revenant despite literally nobody asking for it. (Rather we were asking the OPPOSITE.)

    I would ask whether you need a lollipop and a nap, or just need a good moment to sit down and suck on your thumb.  I'm treating you like a child, because you are acting like one.  I'll explain simply...where did I state that I think any of this was a good thing?

    I'll give you a minute...because this is critical...

     

     

    The short of it is that I did not.  Rule of cool is entirely in the eye of the beholder...and you've got to imagine for a moment that they have succeeded in the past because the game is still running.  

     

    If you're interested in opinions, then let me share that we may be in more agreement than you think.  Let me express my opinions, without the condescension that you are somehow wrong...because. 

    1) This is a looter-shooter about space ninjas.  Everything extra should be directly adding to that...not a self serving content island.

    2) DE's idea of cool has long not matched their players as a whole.  That will happen when you want millions of players added...when you introduce to core content items like mining and fishing.  Remember, the first thing people did with their new mining laser was to draw phalluses on everything.  

    3) You never played PSO, did you?  The grind was insane, the drops were terrible, and they sold the game on movement that was not part of the system.  I remember a three step attack I had to learn to do at just the right distance...because something like breaking the attack of the giant moles was too much to program.  This meant that in PSO if you started too late you took a free hit, too soon and only 2 of 3 would hit, and slowly strafing around a hexagonal arena (one of the areas, there was a cave, volcano, and a few other areas) sucked.  

    4) The rule of cool gave us Railjack, Archwing, Sharkwing, multiple focuses on cosmetics, Baro with an unwholesome focus on cosmetics, and the Shawzin.  The results of which have been less than stellar.  I do all of these only as required for rewards...so while I don't think any of the items as delivered are cool, I can definitely see how they could be amazing.  Archwing was sold as space ninjas able to fly out into the void and destroy the ships we'd always been trapped inside...and it's just a new skybox and scaling for the standard mission types...with content island items.  Just because it can be sold as cool doesn't mean that it is delivered well.  

    5) DE is composed of humans.  They can be overly ambitious.  They can have bad ideas, or bad execution.  You're welcome to argue whatever you want, but screaming that you aren't getting what you want because you don't think a thing is cool is...well it's what burns people out when you're just ignored.  I commend you on giving enough of a crap anymore to be angry...but does this game deserve that energy?  I'll tell you that my vehement defenses and scorn of it has dulled over time, because once you figure out that your anger changes nothing it's an epiphany that you can just disengage...and it's not the end of the world.  Lord knows the period from PoE to Deimos has seen less core content than a "live services" game should allow...but we're still here.

    6) Finally...maybe have some constructive criticism.  "I don't like" is not a response.  If you want DE to respond then maybe couch your proposition in something attainable and message a developer on twitter with a proposal.  Forums are...based on how DE rolls...not the place to discuss anything with developers.  Wow....that's good to say, but hard to write.

    • Like 1
  4. On 2024-01-12 at 9:35 AM, --N-- said:

    Of note:

    "We're aware.  We're talking about it."

    The Netracell missions are time locked.

    "We will talk about what we are working on in the next dev stream."

     

    Note that I added point two to highlight why things are stupid.

    Let me do the math similar to other areas.  2.5% Tauforged drop...97.5^5 = 88% chance to get no Tauforged of a desired color...or 67.7% chance to get no tauforged shard any given week.  This of course is statistics, so it's a probability cloud.  There will be a player in about 100,000,000 weeks who gets a desired color tauforged for all 5 drops....this is all assuming that DE's drop tables are 100% accurate.

     

    The problem with installing a bunch of time gating mechanics is that people are going to be pissed if you don't adequately respect their time.  A one in one hundred million chance to get what is "the best possible" reward outcome is a joke.  It's especially sad when you get 4 common arcanes, and a regular amber shard...when the regular missions offer you the chance to earn infinite rare arcanes.  Likewise, the once a week thing sucks, but every 5 weeks I'm guaranteed a Tauforge...of a certain color.  .975^25 =  53%.  That means with a 2.5% drop rate and the same 5 weeks I have a 53% chance to not have and Tauforged shards of the desired color.  

    The entire point of the netracell mission was to have more opportunities to earn shards.  Unfortunately, DE decided to weight rewards to garbage...so they introduced a cure to Cancer that gives you Syphillis, and they promise that in a few weeks they'll give you access to the Penicillin used to cure that...and you're hoping that you are not allergic.  I think that level of brain rot is sad, DE is "fixing it" without a proper sense of urgency, and we're letting this happen because the last update released as the most stable in ages.

     

    That is, except for:

    1) Spawning with a mission condition to access sarcophagus containers (3).  Also spawning such that none of them can be opened...necessitating a restart.

    2) The door that opens after shooting a wall mounted crystal, where voca are usually hidden, not opening for clients despite the bars to the door visually sliding up and down.

    3) Spawning on a level where the void angel won't awaken...but when you try to access the other murmur boss you get a pop-up that the void angel must be killed first.

    4) Arcane reward dissolution and rewards packs not being uniform...IE with the weighted rewards there are certain packs more worth buying than others...and some where despite needing them the pool is so dilute that buying their rewards is pointless.

     

     

    What I'm trying to say is that two weeks into the new year, along with two weeks vacation, and it doesn't seem like we're moving forward.  Minor patches are rolling...but they're bug fixes.  Is it too much to ask for some balancing...in a month?  I'd say no...but it's DE.

    • Like 3
  5. 14 hours ago, Binket_ said:

    I've been around for 5 years, I've seen many portions of the community shift their tone depending on who they're listening to.
    Be it DE themselves, some big-name Social Media user... or the rare schmuck to get the unfortunate spotlight.

    I believe a big mocking point some few years back prior to crossplay was "DE doesn't test their game, that's what PC is for." since we got all the updates first.
    ... and to this day? Yeah, that still rings true. Except now it's everyone.

    You'd think things like "Jackal's big laser grid going through walls of the Undercroft wouldn't not only been obvious in hindsight...
    ... but also a great reason at to why it was A STUPID IDEA to add it at all!
    Did nobody on the team say "Well, we have a whole bunch of bosses to use. Let's list them all out" or "This seems too unstable, we should pick something more suitable."
    I doubt they even got heard, which is saddening.

    Say what DE will- and they only will via action when it's something against them- with decision-making like that?
    The idea of them using "blind darts" to make the next few update plans is as good as an explanation as any.
    If anybody disagrees, can you think of a better way that explains it? I sure can't that isn't either "They're not human" or "They're not doing their job"!
    It wasn't due to a lack of trying, I'll say that much. Though I do believe the "They're not human" part is a little on the far-fetched side, but I've seen weirder happen.

     

    You are...on the right track.  Do be cautious though, occasionally DE construes this as developer bashing instead of frustration with the poor state of testing.

     

    On the other side here, PC being "the alpha beta testers" was a thing.  It was also a thing that PC was 4-6 hotfixes ahead of consoles, because they could push an update without any thought.  Instead of hearing "our next update will address this" the PC community got a fix same day.  You're welcome to argue whether that's better or worse, because it meant more buggy released more often, with more patches.  Is it better to have a thousand fixes, or is it better to have more stability with less updates?  Personally, I think that DE was never held to account to release good, and the general industry practices went to utter crap so now the "industry standard" matches such a "beta forever" mindset.

     

     

    Regarding the updates...I think you're wrong.  It's not a dart on a board.  It's a segment of "rule of cool."  DE chooses what they think is cool to pursue...without a lot of planning.  The Jackal, but in the open, is basically the same as Lephantis on the Plains (Plague Star).  If you can see the pattern, it becomes inescapable that they have no plans....only execution and poor execution.

    • Like 1
  6. 9 hours ago, (XBOX)WickedGit said:

    While I can understand pay to skip and how it would get more new players in, I feel it would devalue the hours, weeks, months and years of work and enjoyment players of put into the game. Heaven knows what it would mean for the continuity of the lore behind the game. I know DE are wizards and sorcerers but I really don't see how this would work. Where would you skip to going forward? The start of Whispers, obviously, but would we have another skip to the start of the next major update and so on every year? It would be easier to issue bite-sized sections of the game and charge real money, kind of like Destiny 2's Season. 

    I'm really scared for the future of Warframe if this goes ahead.

     

    6 hours ago, Eruyt said:

    Warframe is already not linear story wise or lore wise, so why add the need to pay to skip. Just do what you are already doing [DE], making content that is new but is accessible to new players. All new content is aimed for new players and that is ok, as a community we already accepted that - Duviri was pretty much that. Bringing Story Skip to Warframe will add nothing positive to the player. As someone who is L3 and plays Warframe for 6 years now, I believe that the grind to get to story points is not as bad as it used to be. We built a community that values the time that we spend joining new Tenno and going through that experience together. For example, I bought Dagath from the market and I built one for Helminth in less than 2 days and after that I still have like 40 tickets to get random players to play the mission. The same with Grendel and other content that is somehow "gated". Why take this experience away from old and new players? Why would I invite someone to play a free game and then gift than a story skip or making than buy a story skip to play with me? That doesn't make sense in Warframe.

     

    So...I view both of these comments as coming from the same root.  DE has historically stated that they will not decrease grind, because "others have already earned it."  See the Hema, Sibear, and other stuff.

     

    Now, allow me to offer what I see as a poisoned apple for new players.  If you were given equipment required to complete content what would it be?  Basic Odonata archwing...basic Mote amp...basic companion?  I think that all of these things suck to varying degrees...and the second you can buy a new one you do.  The thing is though, you can do these story missions with garbage equipment, because they're about the story instead of about gameplay challenges.  For instance, imagine if $20 bought you a basic dash...and it'd be outclassed by literally anything earned through focus.

    Is this fair, and to the spirit that DE introduced years ago?  No.  What it is, is a naked cash grab that will have some people taking it thinking that it'll skip out on the long grind...only to find that they spent real money on garbage equipment so that they could enjoy the new stuff on day one.  Read: poisoned apple.  I think that this is great...because it's going to test DE's mettle.  I just think that they're going to discover rather quickly how pissed people can get when their "pay to skip" offers almost nothing as far as long term rewards...and they then discover that to get the good stuff they'll need to endure 5-7 story missions and a few dozen hours of grind to unlock the content that isn't bare minimum.

     

     

    Let me put this into human terms.  Imagine spending years riding the bus to school.  You turn 16, get a license, and the first car you are promised is either a free geo metro or a Civic you need to spend an entire summer working towards.  The free geo isn't great...but you did get it free.  The Civic is cheap because it's on its last legs...and you discover that to make it good you'd need more money than buying a new car...while the owner of the Geo has been saving after their car and can actually buy something good when it breaks down...whereas the Civic dies and you get salvage cost.  The Civic owner now has to go out and earn even more money to buy something...which kills any love for cars as more than a utility.

    Yes, I'm suggesting that we allow DE to be idiots.  We allow them to poison their player base in search of a quick dollar, and despite railing against it we allow them to collapse the focus system from endgame to middle game because they literally don't seem to understand how their own game plays.  I suggest this not as a learning experience, but as a means for DE to show us how little they've learned...and hopefully to anger enough people that they do something not stupid after this....because DE works in cycles of sky rending stupidity and clawing-back players with less stupid decisions.  I'm hoping that the last three years of idiotic new grind and devaluation of everything can be clawed back...but it's really just me hoping that DE can maybe start doing more that minimum viable product releases where what should come out day one is about 60% right, and they then milk it for a second release so that anybody who was dedicated to grinding is going to have to come back to get to rest of what was missing.

    In shorter terms, I want to watch DE light the match and immolate themselves, instead of the current wrist cutting goth phase where they only seem to want attention.  That's macabre to say, but I'll point in the direction of Regal Aya and having learned 0 lessons with it before they pumped out the heirloom pack...and then simply laugh because they didn't want to learn.  They wanted us to swallow that garbage, because their monetization specialists predicted they'd get away with it...and they were wrong.  Yes, the unvaultings are now more expensive than ever.  Yes, DE lied about the duration and scope of Nightwave, and subsequently the nature of its rewards.  Yes, the game is now a login and do time locked stuff instead of just play for fun.  Yes, all of this is antithetical to the company who claimed that the Kubrow cosmetics were "too much like gambling..." but this is where we are.  Instead of lamenting, I'm praying DE is as stupid as they are saying...because this level of perceived greed (whether real or not) is stupid.  Boy...I can't believe that I want something I love to be abused more so social services gets called, but here we are.

    • Like 1
  7. 15 hours ago, Keyhound said:

     

    THIS. what's the point of adding a skip for new players, if even old players have no real connection to the vast majority of the characters and events? ask most players what a the tubemen is, or who Alad V is, and all you get is them hearing about the first one somewhere in a boss fight, and the later being the annoying boss with the mecha dog, that somehow turns infested, before "getting better".

    what warframe really needs for new players isnt a way to skip the grind, it is a separation between story and grind. we need a MAIN STORY, that goes through the starchart. that is outside of the missions we have today.

     

    we need a streamline progression, and no DE, cutting the requirement to access the junction from 9 missions to 8 is not enough. players need a reason to progress through the starchart.

     

    this is something we have told ya time and again, yes, this is a massive endeavor, but its something that NEEDS to be done. Warframe need to stop trying to add new stuff that, while fun, is disjointed from the rest, and start fitting everything together.

     

    as a side note, i feel like its a mistake to remove the mk1 Weapons from the starting quest, on the contrary, i feel like the better answer would be to simply give the players ALL the MK1 weapons instead. i remember when i started the game, and i almost stopped very soon after simply because i made the mistake of taking the braton and the lato, so when spy missions came, as a beginner, i felt trapped, with no idea what to do, because i didnt pick the paris instead. not just that but, by having those weapons avaliable from the start, you are giving the players choices, to play around. instead of being stuck with the same loadout for days.

     

    similarly, i feel like the first 3 warframes should've be given to the player as part of the progression earlier on. we could even have it linked to the story, something like:

    after defeating Vor, the player discovers that the other 2 frames were taken by him to experiment, and that they are currently in route to the grineer base, but the problem is, Vor sent each frame in a diferent ship, and we can only pursue one, so Darvo proposes to leak the info of the other ship to a certain Corpus he knows who is interested in studying warframes, and the player is given a choice of which of the 2, they want to get second. so we get a mix of spy, defense and sabotage inside the grineer ship, where they are tasked to find the storage where the warframe is located, go there, eliminate the grineer protecting it, and then destroying the ship so it seems like it was the corpus doing it.

    afterwards, Darvos comes to tell that he has information that the corpus ship carrying the third frame got attacked by a pursuing grineer vessel, and crashlanded near fortuna. so the player goes there, and discover that someone from the crashed ship had fled to fortuna, andwas trying to sell some very important document to Nef Anyo, who double crossed him, so, we go for a rescue mission, that changes into a spy. where the player gets the Blueprint for the third frame, and the information that Alad had started to dissect that frame but was forced to stop and flee when the grinner ship attacked. soon after someone from fortuna contact the player to inform that the crashed ship was found, and that they are taking its content to a nearby spaceport, so the player has to hijack the transporter, in order to collect that third frame.

     

    when they finally finish it, its discovered that the frame was broken down into its 3 main components, the Neuroptics, the Chassis and the System(not the bp for them, but the parts fully built already). with the main BP being the document that was found in the spy, the player is told to craft the frame once again, there could even be some talk about how Alad may be cruel, but he is highly skilled, being able to separate the frame so neatly with minimal damage to those parts. however, the process to rebuild it will take some time.

     

    so in that small quest, the player learns about the corpus and grineer not being friendly, learns about Alad, and his interest in the warframes, and also how to craft a warframe.

     

    by the end, the player will have full access to all 3 starter frames, which means, more variety, a sense of progression. and an arsenal that, while not amazing, its big enough to get started. the player is even given agency in choosing which frame they get next. it also creates a natural link to fortuna.

     

    as a side note, that would also vacate the spot those frames take so other frames like oberon and most importantly ash could take, maybe even vauban who feels out of place being in the nightwave for no reason. better yet, i feel like a better frame to be in the nightwave would be equinox, since it has the most parts, while hydroid fits far better in the planet that is 99% water. with atlas being on earth instead.

     

    another side note is, MANY warframes need to have their quest revamped, limbo and nidus comes to mind. limbo could instead be found on the void. and nidus... well, his whole quest need to just be completely reworked(again, as does many other frames).

    So....while I appreciate your opinion, I believe that you are incorrect.  I believe the root of this error is in assuming that instead of integration with the game you want legacy content carved out and ignored.

     

    Allow me to offer you an alternative, which I believe is less detrimental.  I say detrimental because if you carve the story out of Warframe then you've got literally nothing but 5 second loops of movement and murder nirvana...surrounded by miserable grind.

     

     

    Now...you call out Tubemen.  That's...short sighted.  Operation gate crash, arid fear, breeding grounds, and cryotic front all came before that.  Cripes, if you carved out all of the content you only received due to a story event we'd have...5 game modes?  I don't think anyone rational looks at DE and suggests that level of garbage follow-through is acceptable...but there is a fix.  That'd restricting new players from entering certain content until they receive a pass, and said pass would be tied to a 3-5 mission primer on game modes.  Yes, I'm suggesting new players could initiate a lockdown on a Corpus tile set and not have a bursa wheel itself out until they'd done a quick 3-5 mission string introducing the enemies and terminology...without needing to revive a dead event.  If we look at the content this would cover, I'd suggest:

    1) Operation Gate Crash

    2) Fomorian Sabatoge

    3) Tethra's Doom

    4) Breeding Grounds

    5) Cryotic Front

    6) Eyes of Blight

    7) The Pacifism Defect

    8) Operation: Ambulas Reborn

    9) Gradivus 

    Note that all of the above introduce enemies that are simply a feature of the current game...and people often forget what history brought them into being.  That's because DE introduces crap, forgets it exists, and leaves legacy stuff in the game because why not.  Tell me, if you started today how would you know how to scan the Kurias, or even how little it used to suck to have eximus units still entirely CC viable...instead of the current deader is better meta.

     

     

    Now...would this introduce more time between logging in the first time and being a true warframe player (read: mashed's video on 100 days in Warframe)?  Yes.  That's bad, right?  Well, no.  People are idiots, and want to pretend that this would suck.  It's under the broad assumption that nobody has patience...and while that kind of idiot exists I believe better of this community.  This would be the opportunity for DE to give us a more clear progression path from start to being amazing...and if they had an ounce of thought to offer they'd restructure the screen for missions into a tree.  Vor's Prize is the start, from there you branch off into howl of the Kubrow and Once Awake, from there you'd continue to branch...and the above new missions would give you reasons to start filling out the star chart missions to access stuff like excavation missions and the like.

    Does this put up a barrier to entry for new players?  Is that gate keeping?  Am I a bitter old veteran who just doesn't understand the new player experience?  Yes, No, and go take a long walk off a short cliff you stupid strawman.  The barrier to entry for new players is a non-starter argument.  If you want people to engage, you have a mastery rank locking content, and you have multiple 24+ hour waits required to engage with content then you've already structured your game with required wait.  As such, claiming that a game which for 5 years and change has required full completion of the star chart prior to engaging with more than 50% of the content (read: operator abilities and high level rewards) is without barriers is shenanigans.  This isn't gate keeping...because asking for players to engage with the game before they're given access to everything is called progression.  For those of us old enough to remember when microtransactions weren't authored to allow you to skip badly structured grind, it's obvious that the only gate keeping is to force value from player effort rather than rewarding whales who pay to skip. 

    Finally, idiots make the "you just don't get it" argument.  I'll entertain you for a moment on that front.  I remember getting knocked off the map, and it counting as 1 of your 3 deaths per day per frame.  I remember spawning off map, and that was another death.  I remember having to buy lives...because that was a mechanic.  I remember 3 tiers of fusion cores, abilities being tied to mods, fixed daily maximums without regard to MR for focus, and my favorite mechanic of all was Pets.  Buy genetic stabilizers, can't let them be downed, as you have a maximum count of daily interactions, 24 hours to unfreeze one of them, and worst of all because their stats sucked so bad they spent most of the time in missions rushing enemies and dying, so your only real option was a sentinel.   In short, I remember that the grind used to suck worse.  I'm not here to make people suffer through that...but maybe making them spend time figuring out how to build an obvious crit focused weapon without having to look up a guide on youtube would lead to a more competent player base...one that doesn't rely heavily on the ignis wraith.

     

     

     

    Having said all of this, you may be surprised about my conclusion.  I support the pay to skip button.  I agree with your outcome, if believing that your method to get there is flawed and incorrect.

    I believe it's DE experimenting with more monetization, as we've collectively kicked them in the teeth for blatant greed constantly.  Regal Aya and Heirloom collections anyone?  They increased the price of vaulted content with the inclusion of Regal Aya, without increasing the player reward.  I think they should be allowed to make more money...but I also believe that them doing this will poison new players and older players for a surprisingly long time.  When the chat for your optional dev stream loses its mind it's pretty obvious that their good will is running thin.  That, combined with perceived greed, will force a death or renaissance.  I am optimistic that it'll be a renaissance of restructuring content...so I'm happy.  It's not like DE has anything else in the pipe...as Soul Frame is aspirational as shown.  They cannot afford to screw up Warframe...so we'll either get a lot of presents to address their mistake or genuine improvement.  Consider this trying to find the silver lining in a very dark cloud.

    Boy, was that depressing to write.  Hopefully DE gives enough of a damn to read this...but I'm not holding my breath.  

    • Like 1
  8. On 2023-10-20 at 4:09 PM, iPathos said:

    You don't have to break the down meaning of the term for me, I'm aware. You must also consider the context to which I replied, as that was directed primarily at the inconsistency among nerfing and buffing things game-wide. I personally prefer to find weapons that I enjoy using and then to decide on content that's suitable for them, because that puts my preference for fun over a need for competent gear choice.

    It makes sense for overpowered options to somewhat validate other overpowered options, so that monopolies are not formed. However as I also said before, the necessary balance is where fine tuning leaves much to be desired. 

    We generally find that one of four main things happens with "powerful" gear in Warframe:

    1. They are either difficult, painful or expensive to obtain, gating them through accessibility.
    2. They are reliant on a very specific setup, usually including a riven with very specific stat rolls. Gating through RNG.
    3. They get nerfed hard upon their efficacy being shown to the wider public, this restricts them via gatekeeping the knowledge of their efficacy.
    4. They get nerfed in a minor way, but enough to take them out of the leading position they were in while still retaining some degree of power or appeal. This is the least common and most preferred action for DE to take in general as it benefits the largest selection of players.

    While I'd prefer for more things to be buffed than nerfed, I feel like it would benefit the player more if the content being engaged with was more flexible in their manner of approach. Thus, changes are my preferred approach, as it shakes things up without directly removing certain playstyles.

    Warframe is already a smorgasbord of content, whether to its benefit or detriment. The more ways that it can be engaged with in an entertaining manner, the better. For some, that's a genuine challenge. For others, it's mowing down every enemy in sight. For others still, it's more about going fast or enjoying the movement system.

    My point, in circling back to what you originally said about "nerfing OTHER broken things", was that it would be more beneficial to raise the floor before lowering the ceiling. There's far more options that DE could make viable with small tweaks or fixes, which then could rearrange the power balance from the bottom up. All of this without just throwing more pools of health, armor, shields and overguard at us.

     

    So....please excuse but I've only glanced at this conversation.  As such, maybe I'm missing some of this.

     

    That said, you are requesting the floor to be raised rather than the ceiling to be lowered.  It's a good idea on paper...but how do you square the fact that DE is incapable of this with asking for it?

    Let me be less obtuse, and provide an example (or two).  Rivens entered the game as a means to bring everything up to the level of acceptable for later game content.  They were initially pushed out with...very little balance.  Their RNG nature meant that 90/100 rivens are about as useless as a lead balloon, the remaining 10 are divided such that 8 are useful and 2 are absolutely broken.  They of course have multiple layers of RNG...between 2-3 positives, 0-1 negative, and then multipliers for each of the conditions....which makes my broad 90% garbage work...without having to do two pages of math to get a more accurate number.  DE failed to balance, made a black market, and eventually came to the conclusion that instead of balance they'd equalize to a desired usage outcome....because 10th+ order systems are basically impossible to balance without a mathematician spending hours to even model.

    Likewise, our recent incarnon stuff is...a thing.  I'd like to say great, but they basically tacked on some base stats to weapons that were utter garbage by a thousand updates power creeping them into oblivion.  Instead of just fixing them though they slapped on an incarnon mode...which is a huge power boost that is so limited as to be useless.  Joy...after half a mission's head shots I can enter into a slightly more powerful mode that feels good...just long enough know it's working before it's got to recharge.  Ouch.

     

     

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any points, but I'd like to understand how and why you believe DE is capable.  Ideally with some sort of examples that I could rattle around in my brain and try to make sense of.  I don't think your point is inherently wrong...but I'm also not entirely capable of seeing it through to some sort of engame where DE genuinely understands their own game as a whole.  

    Blessed be the Pablo reworks, where an old frame gets reworked into something genuinely good (Grendel and now Hydroid), but Pablo is a freak (in the best of ways).  He seems to have a laser focus on what is good, and fits it into the game without just simply stat buffing.  Pets 2.0 is great...and it only took 5 years.  Joking aside...I'm viewing Infested Salvage, the Grendel Missions, Defections, and what I see is a company that cannot commit.  They add more, and instead of building up they build out.  With that philosophy they cannot ever balance...because it would require that they balance everything...and that's a huge non-value add when it's much easier to repurpose.  As an example, repurpose a basic mission type (exterminate), reuse the lantern mechanic from an old boss (Zeloid Prelate), reuse the low lighting condition from special missions, and gate it behind a new Dojo room and syndicate standing.  Use this in conjunction with a near zero effort single model "story time with Grandmother" mechanic, and you've got what appears to be a lot of content that is literally a week of work for an animator and maybe a few weeks of work on designing the frame.  Drag this out for 4+ months...because you're still working on stuff promised before you even started working at DE (read: pets 2.0), and have that mission mechanic dragged out because you need a new resource that's RNG valued...it's done.  Ready for consumption.

     

     

    Please note that a lot of this is because when I logged in I was bounced out of a mission so DE could ask me to do a survey...instead of on log-out like before.  They asked if the game respected my time, and my answer was no.  It was no because nothing in this game is about respect for time, it's entirely about the line we're willing to draw between gameplay and skipping a garbage grind...or the content hidden behind it.  I'm OK with that in free to play...but we're getting to the point that DE is starting to actually lose whales based upon their actions...and I think it's directly linked to the inability to balance things.  Thus, I want to hear an opinion from somebody who...I don't believe is on the same wavelength I am, and thus might offer insight that I'm missing.  

    • Like 2
  9. On 2023-10-05 at 1:28 PM, AxilliaPrime said:

    steel path can be reached by MR4-7 players about 2-3 weeks after first installing the game, if the new players joining our clan are any indication.
    you can't expect to retain new player to the game if you tell them "congratulations on finishing the star chart, please remain there or in arbitrations for the next 6 months, while you grind out focus".

     

    Thank you.

     

    It's almost like the argument here is that DE has multiple progression systems which don't mesh.  They create plateaus, and instead of offering rewards on these plateaus DE seems to be seeking to remove them.  They aren't being removed by changing the reward progression...they're being removed by giving you so much stuff that you don't have time to plateau before you're moving onto the next grind and incapable of appreciating your progress.

    1) Start the game, grind for basic resources and credits while unlocking the start chart.

    2) Discover mods as you level up.  Discover endo as a requirement.  Discover it's rarely dropped, and in 15 unit blobs.

    3) Get to rank 30.  Discover the joys of forma, the 24 hour wait, and the need to earn both reactors and catalysts.  Find both are unobtanium unless engaging with Nightwave, which all of the aura mods are also hidden behind.  Despair, because as a new player you'll have random weekly access with miserable time gates and then have to decide if the aura mod or the reactor/catalyst is a better reward.

    4) Complete the star chart.  Discover the Steel Path.  Complete The Second Dream.  Discover operator form.

    5) Discover Arbitrations.  A new game mode that penalizes death hard...but is basically an endo fountain.  Nowhere else can you run 40 minutes and get 7 sources of endo and an ephemera as a reward.  

    6) Use the endo from arbitrations, and the mods.  Get your crap pushed in during steel path, and start grinding PoE for either lenses or Eidolons.  Alternatively, now engage with Duviri for huge nearly effortless focus gains.  

    7) Become dangerous enough to do Steel Path, by having the operator act as an extension of your builds.  This functionally is meant to be where you no longer have to have a niche build to survive Steel Path...because enemies without armor are basically dead (Unairu), casters with infinite energy are immortal (Zenurik), and melee with the ability to regen health (Naramon+Arcane Reaper) are basically immortal. 

    8) Grind Rivens.  You've literally done everything else...and without the operator grind being here it's lonely at the RNG rolling top.

    9) Grind Kuva.  End stage Rivens is not just to have them, but to spend millions of kuva getting a "god roll."  Almost like it's an RNG sandwich...right type, right weapon, and right stats.

     

    The items in italicized blue are the plateaus.  They are periods where the player is going to have issues.  Note that DE has....kind of made them easier.  That initial mod grind is endo supported, and all mods can be dissolved into endo.  No reactors and having to get 1024 mods to merge into a single high level one.  They haven't removed the exponential path though...so their cost is still an issue that necessitates not only getting a core set, but raising it up to be effective.

     

    Next is the Nightwave.  It's been a pretty fantastic failure.  Let me elaborate.  For veterans who have all of the cosmetics it's a grind of old content to get credits to buy...Nitain and reactors/catalysts.  For new players it's a weekly RNG roll whether they can get the rewards without help, followed by an RNG roll to see if they have anything to buy.  What I will tell you is that decent veterans who find a lower MR player should offer them a quick trade, and give up some of their aura mods.  It's the right thing to do to make the new player experience suck less.  As far as I'm concerned, it's also the only way to retain people who see the grind wall to basic equipment after the first 10 hours and just tune out.

    Follow this up with forma.  You've got to get access to the void and relics to farm stuff...and then wait 23 hours...  It's not a pain to veterans, but for new players who need hundreds of forma it's basically months of artificial grind wall.  This is why Formastar is an event the community loves.

    Moving on to step 5...arbitrations.  I...have mixed feelings.  It's great for new players to have a gigantic feed of endo...and older players keep doing it for the arcanes.  As the later, and years in, I'm still 19/21 for the pistol efficiency with 33/21 for the companion armor and arch-gun summon armor.  Likewise, the endo flow is a joke, when you've got everything maxed, 100+ of each statue, and 6+ million sitting around because the release of mods is so slow.  It's also frustrating when people pop into this game mode for 10 minutes, get one reward, and duck out.  The rest of the team gets to either power through (see: Revenant and shield gating) or leave a timed mission.  With mixed feelings, it was a generally good thing that DE assumes everyone will love given how much endo is required.

    This is generally where new players start to drop.  400+ weapons is cool...until you test 5 in a row that suck.  MR lets you do more...but it's not linear.  The rank-ups take weeks instead of days to earn.  With all the time gating people burn out...and fade away.  No comments, just move on to the next free title.  This is also why DE asks us in their surveys if we know what to do next...because at this step there's no clear "forward" that isn't going to require lots of grind without obvious quick benefits.

     

    Step 6 is late mid-game.  With the changes to focus it'll probably move to 7, because the focus schools will be item 5.  Grinding Duviri is a literal joke, because they removed all progression gates.  You can enter day one with the Sun & Moon and be effective as someone at MR 33.  Back to 6, you've got another re-equip plateau.  You're going to need the mods to start winning at Steel Path...and the operator powers make it somewhat trivial even at low levels.  When "challenge" is defined by big number and you can remove them with a single button press it's less about challenge and more about a gear check.  Read: why corrosive damage and corrosive projection mods were the only choice for years...and now the "high level" content is Unairu as a basic requirement.

    Step 9 is literally the end of the game.  It's where people stop logging in, except for content drops.  Rivens have been divorced from their purpose of "allowing all weapons to be viable in late game" and has instead become an exercise in trying to find the 1% where the Riven hasn't been hammered to crap for what the weapon can do.  You then have to get the riven, roll until you get the weapon, then roll until you get stats...of course those stats also have RNG.  Goody.  I can get the "god roll" for the categories, and still get a garbage individual stat roll that makes the riven unusable.  Gotta love that level of fruitless grind.

     

     

    Anyone who has read this, and disagrees, should point out a few things.

    1) If it's such a grind, why are you still playing?

    Answer - for 20 seconds.  The 20 seconds to slice through mooks, jump against a wall and wall jump into the air, slam down with a heavy attack, and become a gigantic fanblade of limbs and mook bits.  That's the core loop of this game...and why it's good.

    2) If you're a veteran you don't understand the new player experience.  It was too long ago.

    Answer - you forget that the new player experience is new.  Amazing, but it used to be a total mess.  Login, drop from a pod in the wall, have infinite energy to kill enemies for no apparent reason, then wander through a tutorial.  Of course, that was 2.0.  My understanding is that new player mission 1.0 was just dropping you into the orbiter.  Funny that, the current experience leading you through everything.  The initial start being the same rough smattering of missions, but evolving into dozens of parallel grinds.  Finally, understanding that old methods were actually much more restrictive (coin lives, hard capped focus, and no shield gating), and thus were a longer grind.  Of course, standing for ways to decrease that grind is reasonable...given that these conveniences aren't simply given up.  IE, focus being tied to MR, shield gating being a mechanic which you can mod for with arbitration mods, and the coin lives going the way of the arcade for a live count which can be increased through earning higher ranked arcanes.

    3) TL;DR.

    Answer - fine.  TL; DR back.  Too lazy; don't respect.

    4) Rabble-rabble-rabble, gatekeeper.

    Answer - Cool.  You want all of the rewards and none of the investment.  That's called entitlement, and it's why games like Overwatch died.  It's also why games like Star Wars Battlefront II died.  If EA made Vader a 40 hour grind, and didn't let you pay for him, it would be a powerful reward.  Instead, they claimed it being a "reward" and then offered it for money in a premium priced game.  DE gets away with this because they're free to play...but only as long as we let them.  I'm not gatekeeping to keep new players from content, I'm attempting to force them to engage with the progression curve so that by the time it unlocks they know what it is to earn that power...without the opportunity to just buy it.  Key differences there that most people are too dense to link...but the two, and all too often the reality is that through years of conflation and inexperience with pro-consumer practices they may never be able to see that there is a difference.

     

     

    Let me end with this, for the 1% of the 1% who read.  DE waited years before the focus system got any love.  They waited so long that anybody who has it probably finished grinding for it more than 12 months ago.  They added Thrax in the Zariman, and in Duviri they added Thrax with a mission section that spawns them infinitely without the 30 kill requirement on the Zariman.  It's obvious that they're adding all of the easier methods so that players can power up faster...but then you constantly hear DE whine about minimizing power creep, and that's why all of the new content is "but." 

    Let me explain.  Incarnons are awesome upgrades to the weaker weapons, but they are only awesome in an incarnon mode which depletes quickly and requires charging.  Decrees are awesome, but only serve to mask the uneven progression of a souls-like Duviri.  The circuit gives us a quick challenge with immediate rewards, but it locks us into gear that ranges from great to garbage.  I'm seeing a day in the not too distant future where this balance by DE is how they address power creep, but the truth is that once everyone else sees their "buts" I don't believe that they'll want to communicate it.  I believe they'll state "but there are a hundred other free games in my library right now that don't require me to jump through hoops."  That'll be the day a large chunk of players log off forever...because eventually seeing this game's ugly side will hurt too much.

    You know, I'm going to do two things.  I'll take back an earlier defense of Unairu being the only focus school choice...because it is at endgame.  I'll also share my love for statistics.  100% of games die...whether a slow death of by the hands of their creators or by being replaced.  Most games that matter are resurrected...think WoW classic, Guild Wars, or even Final Fantasy.  The thing is, all of these games were run by people smart enough to not aim for decades of content.  Heck, current WoW pivots...and I'm betting DE thinks they learned that lesson.  That's why we got "open worlds."  Unfortunately they neglected to learn that the driver is core content, and the icing is that unique stuff.  In the last five years we've gotten a tub of icing per each slice of cake, and now DE wants to replace the cake they already gave us with icing.  That's how we stop liking the icing and the cake...because there's nothing worse than a slab of icing...because cloyingly sweet is only tolerable if there's some balance to it.  Almost like rewards are not rewards if there's no effort in getting them.  

    • Like 1
  10. On 2023-10-05 at 6:24 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

    Treated you with the same level of respect you've shown to everyone else.

    No point in a long, drawn out, thousand-word response to your complaints because, even if I wrote a book, you have made it extremely clear via your posts that you think anyone that disagrees with you is somehow mentally deficient, and that you are not open to any reality besides the one you have constructed in your head.

    I am comfortable leaving it here. The changes will go through, and you'll have to find something else to gatekeep in Warframe - like if DE ever lowers Primed Sure Footed from 400 days to 200, or something equally apocalyptic to your sense of achievement. 

    What I believe is simple, that DE is making the endgame much more accessible and thus not endgame.  I laid out all that would be required to do so...and I responded to someone who initially argued that they wanted this because it makes more builds possible.

     

    Now, if you'd like to argue...because it seems like you think this is zero sum, then explain:

    1) Why not just remove the mastery rank system...because it places barriers to new players having powerful tools?

    2) Why not remove the syndicates daily reputation gain...because it removes the player's ability to access powerful tools?

    If you can answer those two questions I'll gladly admit that you have a point, and that I should absolutely assume that nothing in this game matters and I should have access to everything.  So we are clear...I've already answered the stupidity of "old man" arguments.  DE did years ago with the quote "We do free to play right.  You'll be able to access all core content just by playing the game."  It was a statement that:

    1) All content was "free" to access

    2) Non-core content was the money maker (cosmetics, slots, etc...)

    3) There will be time gating to make sure that players have a reason to continue to play.

    4) Whatever was valuable would have the most grind. 

    5) The grind was proven out by low RNG values...because the Lato Vandal and Braton Vandal along with the 21 rarest Eidolon arcanes are 1:20 chances or much less.

     

     

    You know, it might just be a veteran thing.  It might be someone old enough to have not been brought up on free to play garbage, who has seen successful monetization, and knows that money has intrinsic value.  Maybe I am too old to just accept things.  Of course, you've done nothing to make a counter argument but state a word, and proven that the counter argument is simply "I deserve more with less effort."  Never necessary to argue why, or even cite that I've drawn a line in the sand because I accepted earlier stuff.  Any actual potential argument is just "I'm too lazy and you aren't going to agree."  Yeah...Deadblow.  No effort, finesse, and entirely useless.  Does make you feel good to swing that hammer though, right?

    • Like 1
  11. 8 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

    Cringe.

    It's good that the grind for Focus is being eased. It's been in the game for the better part of a decade. It is, more or less, an expected tool. 

    The practical, non-altruistic reason to be for it is that the game is consistently adding more stuff to grind for each release. If the game never curtailed some of its earlier grinds, new players would be faced with a year+ of grinding various systems to even begin to keep up with long-time players, and that's apocalyptic for new-player acquisition and retention - something which Warframe already struggles with.

    New players are critical for the game's continued success, and making them interested in sticking around is important. This really isn't a big deal.

    In short: quit being a weird gatekeeper for systems that are literally almost eight years old at this point.

     

    You are...wrong.  Just so wrong.

     

    Point 1, the definition of literally.  If the game "literally" had the focus system for 8 of 10 years it'd be something that I can demonstrate.  Upon release there were no schools that could be unbound, no way to get lenses outside of RAIDs, and the release of PoE was the first time most could reasonably be expected to get lenses...of which there were 2.

     

    Point 2, you don't understand the difference between gate keeping and devaluation of effort.  Let me destroy this stupidity.  I appreciated introduction of the thrax.  I appreciated not having to power grind for a fixed daily focus cap.  I appreciated that DE made the system more intensive by requiring eidolon shards to unlock items, and that those same shards allowed you to earn functionally unlimited standing each day.  That seems like the opposite of gate keeping...which would instead be complaining that nobody else is forced to get focus over literal months.

    My frustration is that instead of focus unlocking powerful new options, it's becoming a requirement.  Can't kill Thrax without void damage.  Can't do Duviri without a lot of bonuses tied to intrinsics, given the balancing.  You'll note that I don't cite Kuva.  Why is that?  Well, rivens are "endgame."  Getting Kuva to reroll them is great...and requiring it in late game sets up an investment to reward requirement that means you feel value in its power.  My issue is that if you double rewards, make them required much earlier in-game, and then quintuple reward source things are no longer a reward for effort.  Things become a tax for entry...which is the gate keeping you claim I am guilty of.  Bummer, seems like your logic is rooted in a stupid misunderstanding of what gate keeping is....because you project that I "don't want newbies" to have the power I do.  Funny thing is, I want them to be forced to engage and have that power feel like something earned.  This isn't "spending $10 on Darth Vader or 100 hours of grind is 'rewarding.'"  This is me asking for a powerful mechanic to not be devalued. 

     

     

    My last bit is the new players garbage response.  A new player, on day one, has no access to about 80% of the game.  No Steel Path, Archwing, Railjack, Operator, most of Nightwave, and with MR gating even if they power leveled they'd be missing most of the arsenal.  Put the 23 hour forma wait, vaulted content, and 24+ hour build times for things like a clan dojo and you're really pushing the bounds of reasonable for claiming the new player has any relative power.

    Why then is it a reward to grind, and grind, to get new stuff?  That would be progression...which you seem to not understand.  Let me short this.  More time = more understanding = more rewards = more power =progression.  Thing is, if you remove the time commitment and the rewards are simply handed out much faster it. not really a reward.  It becomes a progression wall....like the one you accuse me of wanting.  That's stupid, right?  I mean, before the focus system was about bringing you to a place of greater potential...but not stopping you.  Operator form could give you a revive, but you didn't need to have it if you could shield gate.  Options, rather than a requirement, are the name of the game.

     

     

     

     

    ---------------------------------

    Now that I've heard many, many stupid reasons that "I'm an elitist, snobbish, gate keeping jerk" I think it's time to fix this hypothetically.  Maybe that will get it past your inability to conceive of one counter argument.

    If instead of simply cranking up rewards DE decided to rebuild focus I'd be happy.  Imagine for a second that instead of a focus school you just got focus at current rates.  It was stored in a single value, and each school branched out from a central core.  The initial branches and levels are very cheap.  Think 50k to unlock basics,, which over 3 levels ramp to 50-150-300k.  No lock to a lense, and no differentiation.  This means on day one people who wanted to could have one level in almost anything.  Instead of a school then you have a circle divided into segments which "mimic" a school, and you choose where the conical section you have access to covers.  This means you could unlock things like Unairu's void dash, but the Vazarin void blast...and those low inner circle costs mean you haave access to underpowered versions day one.

    Now, ring 2 is the good stuff.  Bonuses like changes to void dash are 150-300-500k to unlock, so they are an investment.  Powerful, not locking you out of function, but giving you more.  Ring 3 is the farthest out, and it's the big-boy stuff.  Specifically, the waybounds that can be unlocked.  If they're expensive, and require enough of the low level path done, you suddenly have power progression both within the power and to unlock it.

    The best part is that the conical section gets expanded.  It starts out at 50 degrees (to cover one "tree" or focus school)...and once the outer ring is unlocked it widens.  It now can cover 70 degrees, offering new powers.  Think something like your void blast being able to both armor strip and slow, or your dash blasting and armor stripping.  Again, you haven't decreased investment in these powers at all...you've made them easier to unlock at base but kept most of the insane power behind a huge grind wall.  Not gate keeping, but drip feeding little rewards until you unlock the big one.

     

    Why is this better than simply removing the grind?  Well, you don't need any of the operator abilities, if you don't build new systems around them.  Specifically, note that I wouldn't require Thrax enemies to be void damaged, but instead have them function like their Duviri counterparts with overshields (note: the Orowyrm boss fight).  This removes requirements, gives rewards sooner, doesn't remove the time investment required to get those rewards, and doesn't require things earlier in the game because of stupid design decisions.

    It's also a solution to basic functions because the gap between earlier game unlocks and true power is still there...without needing to dramatically increase player rewards so it can reasonably be assumed they have access to something, but there isn't a requirement that they have access to the most powerful version of it.  This, despite players actually being rewarded with experimenting on different conical section coverage...because there'd be nothing quite so amazing to support as someone who could dash in and restore health, instantly revive a player, and then suppress enemies with a huge blast of armor stripping.  Thing is, to do that you'd need weeks of grind...which I'd absolutely support.  This is all while "new" players with only a few hundred hours could "only" armor strip or regenerate enemies...

     

    Maybe you get it now...maybe not.  My issue is that focus is becoming a barrier to engagement instead of a reward for investment.  That's taking an endgame reward and devaluing it until it's a middle-game requirement....which is pants on head stupid.  What's even more idiotic is DE then justifying this as a good thing by "decreasing grind" while actually forcing more grind...because before this was an optional grind for power.  My problem is when what was optional power becomes a requirement things are no longer a reward...and if you are a new player that's not rewarding, but changing rewards to requirements.

    • Like 1
  12. 13 hours ago, (PSN)WF-Djin said:

    The money is no comprehensible argument for me in this case. Every veteran I talked to was and is always buying every package they release in store. In the case of a new player they were just wondering which one they buy and if they are even willing to spend money on this game. Just look at the heirloom packs; every newbe was complaining about pricing and only veterans understood the worth of the content like regal aya. Veterans are more willing to pay... Change my mind 

     

    MR 33.  Started before Archwing.  Reasonably can call myself a veteran, if by no other standard than I remember buying tokens because it counted as one of your lives when a knock-down launched you off of the map and instead of a respawn on the map you lost one of the 3 lives per frame you got a day.  Yes, that was a thing.

     

    The last purchase I made was Vauban's skin with the pneumatic cylinders.  The last money I directly gave to DE was years ago.  I believe it was a prime pack for...I want to say Limbo Prime....though I may be remembering that wrong.

     

    Anecdotally, and counter to what you are saying, I've seen the relative value of things drop.  I remember a time when there were no vaulted items, and my response to you is that when the vaults came around I was happy the first time.  I was happy to plink down real money on a Rhino Prime that I already had, so that I could get the prime resource extractor, because in those days there was no 9999 level enemy runs because you literally ran out of everything at a few hundred levels in, and because the eHP scaling was exponential with no cap.  I have not used the extractor system in...years I think.  The regal aya is great if you want old prime cosmetics...but it's also a requirement to buy and operator gimp suit...so yeah.

    Likewise, I've not spent money on trades in years.  If you wait three weeks the price of everything tanks, and you can get the latest primes for a reasonable amount...but DE wants you to have FOMO and pay other players to farm for you...goody.  Yeah...not using my platinum on trades because at this juncture it's only use is to buy slots....because with the Circuit there's a reason to hoard everything....only that's rapidly changing into a riven dumping ground.  Glad that I don't have to dissolve them into endo anymore (kudos to DE for stacking veiled rivens, I think I've got 100+ waiting around), but that just means if you aren't a nutter about min-maxing then that endgame is gone too.

     

    None of this even touches on the massive amount of people who simply left the game one day.  Those who saw DE was trying to build a Skinner Box, and decided that it wasn't acceptable because "free to play" deserves real respect and the community to care enough to hold the developer to accounts.  Ahh, but the whales who have sunk so many resources "see value" in continuing to invest in the game.  By the way, ever heard of the sunk cost fallacy?  No reason, just a sidebar.  So....how many of the current content partners are 5+ year veterans...?  I'll wait.  

    Let me change your mind by stating that your sample size and pool are tainted.  You believe that it's a veteran thing...whereas there are plenty of "veterans" who called out the crap.  I instead postulate it's an idiot thing.  We often associate a thing we like with us, and thus perceive an attack on it as an attack on us...which makes us humans stupid.  Once you see that, and start noting that you can separate bad decisions, you'll note that it's easy to see whales and idiots because they can't acknowledge that if DE decided to close tomorrow it'd mean the end of the game...and they'd have to live on.

    • Like 1
  13. 7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

    Yes, and then the game evolved over multiple content updates since then, with new content assuming players have access to the features etc. Using ancient content as the basis for "see, it doesn't need changes, because it worked then!" is just beyond asinine. Do better.

     

    Let me do better.  Asinine is taking a powerful feature and devaluing it.  What you want.

     

    More asinine, well that'd be moaning about somebody who "doesn't know' how difficult the grind is despite doing it when it was much heavier on time gating.

     

    More asinine than that, pretending you have a point when somebody already addressed it, and flaunting your ignorance.  You...are a complete mess when it comes to logical thought, and I really hope that people like you get listened to.  It'll be the start of people asking for a "Warframe Classic" to go along with the WoW misunderstanding of power not being an inherent reward when it's given out too fast to feel like a real reward.  That'll be the day I log out forever, because DE will have literally lost the point.  Oh, but we can get a fricking halo for real money...and basic features like knowing what icons mean 10 years into a game...with one that has hundreds of different icons...and cannot clearly communicate math because why would it be a disappointment to discover, as I quote, "300+440% = 740."

    • Like 3
  14. 9 hours ago, Hexerin said:

    3d9aac23b7a32f5e518958a44b6763a1.jpg

    My opinion on the focus acquisition tweaks is what I stated and is cemented. As someone who was effectively a "new player" merely months ago, the "new player" experience is still fresh in my mind. Those tweaks directly improve the new player experience, while affecting nothing else. That's really all there is to it, and no thesis paper from a veteran who has probably forgotten how much of a #*!%ing slog the focus grind is will change that.

     

    You are...just so wrong and stupid for literally telling me what I told you...but couldn't bother to read.

     

    Let me ADD attention span this for you.

    Progression -> investment of time gives you more power

    You are expressing that you are entitled to skip grind.  A grind that was literally months which can now be completed in weeks.  Yeah, you want that faster.

    You complain that I don't know what I am talking about...because I am a veteran.  A reason I cited and addressed...but you are too lazy to read.

     

    Let me now show you the same respect you showed me by responding to a quote, short sighting everything, then literally parroting things I've answered because you are too lazy.  This game will chew you up, and I look forward to it.  Anyone too short sighted to see veterans raising issues as a red flag will jump ship soon enough, and I look forward to that day.  Go be a statistic.  

    • Like 3
  15. 7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

    Considering how integral the waybinds are for the game's modern design philosophy, it's a good thing they're making the focus grind not as insufferable. The moment I had access to Last Gasp, the entire game changed for the better. Then there's the focus school passives and abilities, which open doors to exotic builds that otherwise wouldn't be viable outside normal star chart. My Mag build wouldn't be functional without the energy econ Zenurik provides, nor would my Voruna build without the armor/shield stripping from Unairu. With those supportive effects from the focus schools, however, those builds become possible and vastly increase the fun factor of playing them.

     

    You seem to not get it...so let me rephrase.  If you want the focus to move from an endgame grind, which unlocks powerful skills, to something that is required in the middle-game because of the tendency for poorly designed enemies to one shot you, then this is a loss of an endgame feature.

     

    Now, let me address your comments.  At the beginning of the game you have access to...what exactly?  You can't build out a frame...because you need a bunch of forma.  You can't get most of the aura mods...because they're tied to nightwave now (and thus much of the content cannot be accessed until you're in the later part of early game).  You can't get reactors, and you're gear limited by mastery rank for some of the best stuff in the game.  If this is the case, why aren't you complaining about that?

    The key word you fail to understand is progression.  It's progression to get reactors, slap one on, and grind out a few forma to make that Excalibur not meh.  Input is rewarded.  

    Now...what is the progression on focus?  It isn't unlocked until you're through the star chart...because it only starts to unlock when you've accessed the operator.  The operator is not an early game feature.  Cool.  You progress through the game, unlock the operator, then unlock the schools to get access to some interesting builds.  The reason that the focus system doesn't suck rotten eggs is that after you've gotten a deep pool of good things you've now unlocked something new.  The operator introduces the Eidolons, amps, new arcanes, arcanes as a whole originally (Duviri does that now...but it's also DE not understanding the progression of their own game), and most importantly some new functionality.  Cool.  New toys, new time investment, new power.

     

    What you're asking for is less investment, and thus less engagement time.  Make note that DE told us this was unacceptable when they refused to decrease the cost of Hema research, impossible with the Sibear costing 30000 cryotic you earn 100 at a time, and disrespected player investment on other items.  Now they're couching this as a benefit...after making the entire process to earning it a joke.  Have two hours?  Slap any school on, go to Duviri experience solo, grind a few easy missions until you can make literal glass frames tankier than Inaros, and in about 25 minutes you can get the 400000 standing to max your daily earnings (on steel path).  Note:

    1) That cap is miles larger than it used to be

    2) That cap is to a cheaper overall cost to upgrade everything.

    3) You can then spend eidolon shards (4 types) to literally do what took months in a long weekend.  

    I'm cool with you wanting diverse builds...but your point is stupid.  Before Zenurik we had energy pads and arcane energize.  Don't care for armor, well the answer was 4x armor stripping auras until DE nerfed that, but gave us corrosive and heat procs armor stripping.  Don't like that?  Shattering Impact.  Wow...it's almost like the whole point of awesome focus was to have a huge investment and build more power in...which is intentionally endgame by its definition.  People are constantly complaining about how Warframe has no endgame...and it's because of crap like this.  Something that used to be a high investment and decent reward option is now a requirement to play other content...but because DE slaps crap in they expend huge amounts of energy breaking their own systems and blaming the players for it.

     

     

    Let me finish with an anecdote.  We are about to get Grendel Prime.  That's about a two year window between release and prime release.  Have you tried playing those missions again?  Getting a pick-up game sucks...so you have to build yourself to solo them without any mods.  Yikes....that sucks.  Thing is, it's possible to solo with just augments.  Until you realize you can enter the mission on steel path...because why not.  You then get into the mission, and realize that an unmodded primary against a level 46 eximus unit is a joke...because mag dumping them 3 times just barely finished them off.  You then start to contend with those same eximus units not spawning anything else...and getting 800 cryotic took more than half an hour...all because DE implemented those eximus changes and never tested them on content...so you almost need a team just to survive the constantly spawning rattles that take a full tenet cycron mag to put down, coupled with the power carrier spawning cues sucking so hard that 20 enemies spawned has no carrier...so you've gone from full shields to 25% health waiting for any carrier to spawn while enemies literally prioritize the drill over you.  Yes, my anecdote is that DE doesn't seem to know how their own game plays....and it's why I'm not happy despite all of the good stuff this update promises on paper. 

    It's amazing that I can look towards all of this good stuff, and see that DE doesn't understand that their endgame is now RNG rolls to get perfect Rivens...and little else.  That's because everything else was sucked down to earlier points.  Arbitrations were great...until you get the last content and discover that they aren't worth doing due to their moderate rewards and high risk with insta-kills.  Steel Path is interesting...until you acknowledge that its only real reward is hiding exilus adapters, some mods, and umbra forma behind a time gated wall.  Sorties and Archon hunts are the definition of bigger numbers <> better rewards.  It's also great to see stuff like "the conservation vendors will now have more companion mods..." until you then read the context that you'll only need one or two of each and thus this is just a new grind to extend relevance of open worlds...which died long ago because once the content was consumed on the content island people stopped giving a crap.  

    So yeah, anecdotally DE is selling us less work for the same rewards years later.  That's predictably DE...but doesn't mean that they aren't hip deep in hypocrisy when they pull this crap on us.  I'd be less frustrated if they were giving us something more...but this is just decreasing a grind and, by their own words, insulting the players who already did it.  It's more insulting because they are choosing where player investment matters...and it seems to just be when real money is dumped.  So...maybe if DE wants to make the Hema and Sibear grind suck less I'll bite.  That said, Argo & Vel launched a couple of months ago.  Guess what still isn't in Cephalon Simaris's store?  It's almost like this isn't an elitist jerk saying you should experience the same pain...and instead someone really tired of double standards and making good things with high investment basically required to play the game (and thus required to be cheaper).  I believe the colloquialism is play stupid games, win stupid prizes...and DE is showing that the stupidity of not balancing stuff (and implicitly relying on "broken" features to power through other ones) is really a symptom of profound misunderstanding of basic mechanics...and making high level rewards easier to get is not fixing it.  It's moving the band-aides in the cupboard from the top shelf to the bottom instead of getting a proper blade cover for the bandsaw...in other words a bad solution to a foolish mistake, predicated on not knowing what it is people want...because they know better already.

    • Like 4
  16. So, immediate feedback after reading through a lot of this...and seeing a lot of copium doled out when it comes to "we're not nerfing anything, please trust us."

    1) Pets not dying is nice.  The rebalance of mods is frustrating...because most builds are 3-4 defensive forma, revival dash, radar dash, and then whatever is left is abilities.  It's...going to be a royal pain in the backside to rebuild things based upon the huge amount of mechanical changes...so maybe we could see some free slots or forma to cover the large investment that is now being flushed down the toilet.

    2) Making it even easier to get focus.  Yay.  Garbage.  If it's endgame content then why has every change been to make it so much easier to get?  From somebody who did the grind back when Atterax whips went through walls, I'm seeing nothing here but devaluation of the endgame to a requirement for mid-game.  Sigh.

     

    3) Hydroid seems to...not suck.  Cool.  Another (on paper) effective rework.  Good going.

    4) The bonuses actually are identifiable.  It only took ten years before you didn't have to have a 200+ icon indicator cheat sheet to figure out what one squiggly line meant, versus a slightly different squiggly line.  Yay.  DE now has a feature that most games have launched with.  Joking aside, finally.

     

    5) Back to those companions...  Not looking forward to the homogenization of rewards.  If Smeeta is outclassed by any sentinel, because the mod is predictable and player controllable, then why the heck am I going to choose it?  I...just don't get why you balance for one thing, then seem to ignore the loop hole for another.  Thing is, if the rewards for the sentinel drops suck then it's not a balance...if RNG screws you over you can literally have a 40 minute run where the Smeeta only doubles resources once....crappy rewards are superior to none.

    6) Math...  It's been a decade, and you are now saying that 100 base, 300 full, and +440% is 740 shields is a problem?  I...seriously?  You're fixing your obtuse mechanics now?  My head hurts.

     

     

    I'd love to comment more.  I see nightwave is less annoying, but then more Duviri annoying, and you're adding more so the next 6+ month slog can have us with thousands of spare credits?  It's like looking at a funhouse mirror designed to reflect sense.  I really wish I could be hyped.  I can't because for all of the awesome I'm seeing slogs added on top of slogs...and it's all seemingly centered around new players only.  I know you want to bring new players in...because they become whales.  That said, with a decade of precedent, I'm going to just hope that this is stable...lord knows I'd like to see it as amazing.  The problem though is that it's largely about 5 years late to the party on the best features being promised....so it still beats Star Citizen.  Ouch.

     

    3 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

    Admittedly the concept of Limbo getting shafted YET AGAIN is hilarious to me.

    Dude is the squishiest Frame due to his mechanic, a mechanic that's been consistently and systemically being kicked in the nuts for the entirety of it's time in the game, and the universal mechanic that could allow him to maintain survivability is ALSO getting taken from him.

    I just, I find it extremely hilarious.

     

    Also, I do hope that if ths goes through and some of the Frames in this section are looked into to determine if they do want to have other forms of survivability in the much harder content where people are using Shield Gate for survival as oppose to prevent one shot mechanics.

    I...have been around since the days of the group quit the second they saw somebody loading into a mission with Limbo.  Every single change for him, bar the initial ability to passively enter the rift and roll out of banishment, has seen him less and less useful.  Funny, or sad.

     

    Regarding the later, shield gating is necessary because DE built "challenge" into the game with random death.  They've since tried to remove it by changing the exponential curve for hp/armor, add shield gating, add the operator reviving you after being downed in a warframe, and multiple invincibility/damage mitigation mods that are basically game breaking at lower levels.

    I don't think that this is going to be good for a lot of frames...but it will be a nasty surprise to people who return from a hiatus and get wrecked because their dragon key shield gating build no longer works.  It'll just be another thing that is hot button until DE does something else goofy...and we do have one more major release (not Dagath) scheduled before the end of the year.

    • Like 2
  17. On 2023-09-05 at 5:15 PM, balckillofdeath said:

    i have to be honest authur should not become part of the standard warframe play(he still a warframe though so yeah), i think for things like grinneer and corpus and teshin play. we are being shown what is happening not telling us.

    okay, name one mmo that doesnt have any form of hard resets or even soft resets i will wait. if you say world of warcraft, starting new character hard reset, path of exile hard reset, albion, new character hard reset. destiny 2 resets by changing how the enemies/damage scales for mission worlds.(meaning you have to grind the new weapons out for power increase)

    I am reading this...and think that you don't understand words.

     

    In the case of starting a new character, you have a "hard reset?"  Let me stop you right there, and ask what you mean to convey.  A hard reset would be something like how Warframe used to be...not how it is today.  The start of new content at a baseline is not a hard reset...but a starting point.  Maybe you could construe warframes specifically as losing hp/energy/shield buffs when a forma is applied...but all of these are trivial when the buff from any mod significantly outstrips and level bonuses.  I...just seem to not get this.

     

     

    Let me quantify.  At MR10 I can buy a new weapon.  It's a new piece of content, I can grind it up, and because I'm MR10 I've got 10/30 capacity unlocked initially.  It's a new item, but we're rewarded for grind by having capacity that doesn't start at 0.  I then get to rank 30...and I can do a reset on the item.  For weapons it used to be a reset back to zero, with a single polarity slot that halves (ish) cost using that mod polarity.  It was a semi-hard reset, as you lost extra capacity beyond your base MR.  IE, 30 capacity, apply forma, theoretical 37 capacity (given the right mod), practical return to 17 capacity, again assuming matching mod polarity and huge cost.  That became a "once you unlock full mastery you never lose capacity again," so DE reset us to no semblance of semi-hard reset.

    Likewise, let me discuss Guild Wars II.  I can start in an area, collect epic level  gear, and go back to said starting area.  No hard or soft resets, but your gear is levelled down such that each area is still worth engaging with.  Note that you also have abilities which are always accessible, it is an MMO, and the second you unlock stuff you slap it on and there's no waiting to enjoy its stats or attack combinations.

     

    Since this is a thread about an upcoming mode...maybe you mean that content islands which create hard resets in new progression are not unique...  But that's just stating that you never walk into new content on day one and just get 50% completion because you played the game before...because that'd be design which doesn't reward engagement with the new content.  I'm so confused.

    • Like 1
  18. 7 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

    I should've pointed this out earlier, Far Cry (from the games I've played) has no animal tracking during hunts. You're also not luring those animals you're hunting either, you just find them near their area and kill them. So not quite the similarities you think.

    Alright sure, flashbangs do no damage like our tranq guns. I only asked an example cause it looks like from the wiki page you linked, flashbangs either haven't been in the game for over (at least) 20 years or Far Cry 6 is the first game that added them in. To point out though, from your other wording, who would consider flashbangs a stealth gadget? If you're deploying one of those, then that indicates a room is about to be lit up in a non-stealth way. Just some food for thought.

     

    So it's a measure of degrees that you'd prefer to quibble over?

     

    Let me choose something much older then.  Thief.  You have a rope arrow, with no ability to damage people.  You have a water arrow to extinguish lights.  You have a blackjack to knock guards out.  All of these things are balanced by the suicidal decision to pull a sword and go after somebody.  When exactly did Thief come out....well, that'd be 2000.

     

    Next, your flashbang argument.  You're more than welcome to flashbang a room and run in guns blazing.  I find that is a choice...but our discussion was about things that have a status effect and do no damage.  Your choice to use the flashbang as a primer is valid...but it's deciding that because you have lost a discussion and are deciding to try and win by moving to a different discussion you think you already have a handle on.

    I'll finalize by doing one more explanation about Far Cry.  November 18th 2014 was its release date.  Plains of Eidolon was released October 12th 2017.  Note a 3 year difference.  Note that in Far Cry 4 you: 

    1) Track an animal that randomly spawns...just like in warframe.

    2) Initiate a QTE event...just like in warframe.

    3) Extract resources....just like in warframe.

    4) Use said resources to potentially hunt more things (bait)...which is more convoluted in warframe because you get standing that can buy you bait and lures, but is fundamentally the same as in warframe as one successful event leads to other potential successes

    5) Hunting was in Far Cry 3...so 3+ years before warframe is the basic timeline

    I don't believe that you should take my word...so here's a guide outlining the process: Far Cry 4 Hunting Guide

    Regarding Far Cry and flashbangs...those were in the first one.  Both smoke and flash were present.  It was possible to use either when deep in the crap to blind enemies, then haul butt away.  In Far Cry 2 there was an item specifically called the "Tranquilizer Rifle" which killed people...and the animals could not be hunted.  Far Cry 3 lost the flash bang, introduced hunting, and required hunting to upgrade things...which is functionally "conservation" from warframe.  I'm sensing a theme about animals being a pinata filled with loot in both warframe and Far Cry...which they are.  As of now you have random encounters in both Far Cry and warframe...which are comparatively new to warframe and only cropped up with Deimos before being ported back to Fortuna and Cetus.  You're welcome to quibble...but it's pretty obvious that DE weren't first to market on this idea...as sans any other consideration I believe we can argue that Duck Hunt was the progenitor of this idea in video games...but that's just me being open to the idea.

     

     

    Stating this again, DE doesn't have to have the ideas first, be the best, or be novel.  They have to deliver content that makes sense for their universe and game...and the core argument is that they deliver late, poorly (by virtue of bugs), and without clear links between some systems and their core selling point of "space ninjas."  Our OP seems to be hell bent on arguing that only their ideas deserve to be acknowledged though...so this is feeling like instead of a discussion I'm making the freedom of speech arguments while a KKK member is in the background spewing racist bile and I have to square my belief that even their expression of ideas should be protected.  Ain't life's duplicity and insanity grand?

    • Like 1
  19. 11 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

    Okay, now I see you're just the same as everyone else, just with a polite coat of paint. Doesn't matter what I say, you're just gonna double down on me being wrong. This is why I despise "communities" and mostly play solo.

    You...

     

    Just wow.  You want to believe that literally only your opinion is right?  I...what is wrong with you?  We were having a civil discussion where there is an ability to disagree and you want to act like a child because we don't exactly agree.  I cannot believe that I misread your capacity to understand so much, but here we are.

     

    Go buy a helmet.  Life is not going to be kind if you decide to piss and moan because you can only mostly agree with someone else.

    • Like 1
  20. 5 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

    DE tried to fix this on two very specific tilesets: Granum Ships and Lua. Grineer and Forest Grineer are still painfully easy. And, like I tried to say: it's easy to not get caught when there's nobody around to catch you. You mention Titania, and she's a Prime example of "my definition of stealth is that everyone near me dies almost instantly". Maybe not on the level of content you seem to play regularly (whatever the current endgame is), but on practically every other level of content, it's easier to cheese the spy vaults with Titania's Razorwing mode and allow her Razorflies to kill anything that could potentially get in the way.

    My point with Focus is that making five separate Lenses for all five trees was the wrong choice, end of line. There's already so much inconvenient and artificially inflated grind in this game that we don't need any more (and that's not including content islands). Grinding out the max Lenses for each School, and then going through the motions of adding them to all your gear, and double checking to make sure you didn't miss something, five separate times, is just another level of tedium on top of an already tedious grind. If they change Focus back to a universal pool and make the cap a "this is how much you can hold at once" cap instead of a "this is how much you can earn per day" cap, then I'd be more than happy with it. It'd even lend more legitimacy to the Focus Shops that force you to spend 1 million Focus Points on the simplest of cosmetics.

    As far as Schools themselves: I'd be able to accept a lot of what you say here if the trees were treated like any other part of the kit; as in, something that changes with different Loadout slots. For example, you swap from your Unairu-buffed Atlas/Inaros to a Naramon-based Excalibur/Kullervo/Valkyr. But as it currently sits, the system feels like yet another pointless "pick your faction" scenario (I will rail against Relay Syndicates until the day the game goes offline, there is 0 reason for the adversary system no matter how you look at it). At this moment in 2023, Focus Schools have always felt like you're """intended""" to pick a tree and stick with it because it's the playstyle you prefer. Yes, I do know that the system has recently undergone big changes in U31.5 in late 2022. I was there. But Focus still feels like you're """intended""" to pick a pseudo-faction and stick with it, and coordinate with 3 other players to diversify the squad based on each other's Focus Schools.

    The only way I'll stop treating it like it's a problem is if they pull a 3.5 or 4.0 pass that either treats Focus Schools as a part of the loadout, or turns all Passive Nodes into Universal unlocks, thus lending more legitimacy to the "set and forget" ideology that's existed since the beginning of the system. If they pull just one of those two changes, I'll forgive the Schools.

    Trust me, I get that all the time on this accursed forum, mostly from elitists that think they know everything but they more than likely haven't played the game in years and are just whining because it gives them an identity outside of "sad lonely loser with no irl skills". I'm just glad to have a rare conversation with someone that's civil.

    To point one you literally regurgitated my response...what value is there in disagreeing with me then using my argument?  Being clear, it was that DE designed old spy missions to require stealth, changed how things worked, made powers unbalanced "press 4 to win," redesigned new spy missions to fix this, but didn't touch the old.  None of this means stealth is dead...only that they have designed away from it being rewarded properly.

     

    As far as the schools, no.  As far as syndicates, no.  Let me assume that you weren't around when the game introduced these things for the first time.  As such maybe you didn't get it.  The purpose of both of these things was to give you a reason to interact with other people and diversify your builds.  Syndicates initially were the source of extremely powerful weapons, that were difficult to obtain.  The synoid gammacor was literally the meta weapon until DE took a balance pass to beam weapons and nerfed it, but back in the day literally everyone wanted to have Suda because their weapon was amazing.

    DE then followed through to flesh out those factions....sort of.  The Perrin Sequence got the Animos...which rebuilt the boss battle on Pluto.  We got Rell linked to one faction, and then DE largely forgot about the whole thing.  They didn't have something special for each faction...but it was initially in the cards.  Likewise, the schools were meant as endgame sources of power...until they transitioned these into necessity by tacking on story.  The thing is, each school had the waybound stuff so you had a reason to grind all of them to a point...then choose what works for you.  The common theme here being DE changing goals as the source of frustration, not the initial design.  

    Final retort...do you pay attention to current workings (as you do call out others for this)?  I ask because you can stick any school on any loadout and have it save.  I'm now looking at my grinding frame, with Madurai and when I switch to my nuking build it's Unairu.  This is not new...as I think years ago people made that point and DE relatively quietly added a per loadout school choice....hence why I switch to my Eidolon hunter in the mission select screen instead of having to run back and reset everything...and you should too.  Just a point to note, because you sound frustrated as though this were bane mods now...when DE already did something to address the schools....surprisingly and pleasantly...

     

    Next bit...I'm going to ask you to do something for me.  Go to the focus school tree.  Now enter any one.  Now, choose the "focus conversion" option.  Tell me what you see.  Waiting....waiting....  OK, we should both see a bunch of shards.  In my case 720 Radiant, 695 brilliant, 28 synthetic, and 1878 regular.  Right now I can convert those 1878 shard into 4,695,000 standing in any of the 5 schools.  No limits, no problems.  If I choose everything I have 51,010,000 standing that can be converted with literally no daily limit and no school requirement.  Do you maybe see how what you are asking for already exists...and the focus lense literally is only required to unlock the school as a base requirement to show you are far enough along to warrant having access?

    I say the above not to flex, but to show you that the simple act of grinding up 21 of each of the best arcanes (energize, barrier, and grace) will give you a metric ton of shards when they're 5% drop rates....so on average you need 20*21 or 420 runs just to get them to drop.  Heck, if RNGesus is unkind you'll wind up doing 1000 or more and still not getting 21...I say anecdotally.  So yes, the focus can be earned infinitely and without ever having to grind a school, should you want the benefits but not give any concerns as to changing your play style.  All of which is valuable...because 2 waybounds are universally present as general operator upgrades.

     

    Final bit...the shop.  On day one I bought everything in every school.  I used a few shards, so I didn't have it purely in a pool.  That said, after I unlocked everything I only passively earned focus.  In the literal years focus has been around I managed to accumulate enough to buy all of the cosmetic junk...and still have all of the above shard.  I don't want to make this sound unreasonable, but why are you complaining that it's expensive junk?  If you don't want it, then don't spend your time grinding for it.  Personally I got it because there's literally nothing else to do with millions of points...because DE designed the system to take a long time to unlock initially but never considered they'd have this for years without updates and thus have people earning excess that they can do nothing with.  Not blue, no garbage on my lander, I don't use the textured skins, and I still appreciate that they at least gave us something to earn with all of the focus rather than having it be prime junk 2.0 without any Baro style fix. 

     

     

     

    I still think that I see your perspective, and at one point may have agreed.  Thing is, DE's failures to develop story aren't a lack of potential.  They're a hallmark of trend chasing that hopefully can be resolved later.  I for one would be happy to see syndicates as more than a daily relic and augment mod source, more than an RNG hit squad spawn, and unique.  That said, the current once yearly large drop of an open world precludes that...which loops us back to asking for core content.  Wow...despite our differences we are back at 90% agreement.  It's cool to finally talk through a thing rather than shout back and forth.  Thank you.

    • Like 1
  21. 9 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

    That's just all the stuff I could think of that ignores your progress with your main kit (Frame, Guns, Melee, Companion) in order to force you to do a completely irrelevant track.

    I don't think Operator is that bad as a lore addition. It explains how the Warframes were even able to be controlled in the first place (bear in mind that the initial Warframes weren't manned by the Tenno until after the Zariman incident and Margulis' execution). Before that, they were basically like Eversor Assassins in 40k. Though I will admit, it is silly that they've made a main protag in a game initially marketed around no single main protag. It's the mechanics of the Operator that I don't like. All of the Hexagon passives are useful in any build (not just the Waybound extra skills), but if they're not Waybound, then they're effectively useless unless you have a niche build in mind using that specific tree. And as of yet, I have found no indication - be it Wiki or in-game - that says the bound passives are permanent universal unlocks. In addition to that, they made an entire Operator stealth system for ONE series of interactive cutscenes, and never used it again, because Stealth isn't a thing in Warframe anymore. You can't get caught if there's nobody to catch you, and there's far more ways to ensure that nobody catches you than there are to not be seen in the first place. This isn't actual ninjutsu anymore, this is Naruto "ninjutsu" that's basically "we're super humans and could more realistically call ourselves samurai/ronin, but we think calling ourselves ninjas is cooler even though we do literally nothing that actual ninja did".

    As far as the Drifter...I think that was the likely best way they could have introduced the idea of "you can now make an adult Operator", given how freaking convoluted the entire story has gotten. Like, I love the spectacle of it all, and am 100% looking forward to whatever story stuff they give us, but I'll admit that this makes even Star Wars Legends look more organized by comparison; and that's known to be convoluted and messy.

    There are definitely ways to mass-grind Focus now (SO/ESO, Tridolon, Thraxx and Angels, apparently you can attach lenses to K-Drives now, so if you like those that's an option). But grinding it for every single tree just feels tedious when you have a max earn-able cap that only resets once every 24 hours. Not to mention having FIVE different Lenses that you have to swap out every single time. I'd be able to deal with the cap if Lenses were universal instead of tree-specific, or a permanent item instead of a consumable. As of yet, I'm just grinding it passively and not rushing at all, because ain't nobody sane got time for that.

    As far as Amps...the only things I've seen them useful for are Tridolon, Sentients (which are only in a handful of locations on standard starchart and are pathetically easy to fight at this point), Sentient Veil (which is part of the Railjack Island so most people ignore it), Orb Mother shields (which only require an instance of Void damage, not specifically major Amp damage, which would make Xaku far more viable imo), Thrax enemies, and Angles.

    And yes, Unairu best school.

    I personally like Mechs as an interesting alternative to Warframes (in the event someone wants a change of pace), but feel they're far more useful eliminating trash mobs on OW bounties. Orphix? Forget about it. Those maps need a serious overhaul if they want us stomping around in our massive Mechs most of the time.

     

    So, three points I have to highlight here. I hope you'll indulge that I don't clip and take out of context.

     

    Point 1 is that stealth very much is a thing...but people are stupid.  You'll note the most used powers are Wukong's cloud walker and Volt's acceleration.  The idea here being that people choose to go in fast and loud, while wiping the floor with enemies.  Thing is, DE tried to fix this.  They increased the size of the hacking areas on the corpus tile set rework for Sisters of Parvos.  It's now very much penalized to be detected, because you can't just speed run all of them anymore.  Likewise, the Lua style missions reward either stealth or Limbo.  For standard missions they fall short...but with an operator and Rhino I can do every single vault without anything more than an Ogris equipped.

    I think you're confusing the fact that DE hasn't really penalized people for fast and loud...because spy missions literally outdate the operator and most frames so they have been trivialized because DE didn't design powers around function.  They designed powers around an escalating rule of cool and a "fix it yourself" with the Helminth that doesn't really consider interactions.  Read: Thermal Sunder Titania. 

     

    Point 2, focus.  Grinding it has always been easy.  Adaro offered a 5x stealth bonus, you could use the Atterax through walls, and the crit bonus you got from either the acolyte mod or the other things allowed you to do 2-4 runs of Adaro and max it for the day...with no boosters...with a lower cap...with Banshee's silence.

    I did all five schools this way literal years ago.  This was back when there was only one choice, you went Naramon and had any type of lense to get the focus.  Today the daily cap is higher, you can't attack through walls, but you've got ESO/SO/Thrax to literally do this in 30 minutes.  Let's see....2500 per thrax while in your OP warframe with decrees out the backside and you can evaporate them with a stug.  Oh, and they constantly spawn in the wyrm fight so it's an easy farm.

    My point is that grinding in general is not a new joke.  If you really want to pinpoint the change it's PoE.  When it introduced the eidolons, with conversion of their bits into focus, and removed the arbitrary need to earn lenses through RAIDs, the challenge died.  That was necessary though...as DE has focused so much content around the operator that they had to decrease the grind so everybody could enjoy.  My bile rises as I say that...as more "endgame" grind is trivialized after hearing that.  Despite this, it's still 30k cryotic harvested 100-400 units at a time to get a meh hammer...so DE really is all over the map on acceptable grind.

     

     

    Point 3, schools.  You seem to like Unairu.  Let me guess why.  Armor strip+shield strip = all frames are now murder machines.  Thing is, unless you have energy regen through other means, or if you fight enemies which require void energy, or if you focus on melee that simply ignores armor, or if you have frames with armor strip powers, then you don't need Unairu.  I get it...basically any frame is viable on the circuit with Unairu taking the sponge out of enemies...but the game is largely played outside of high level sponges.

    Let me retort with this.  A desecrating Nekros with Arcane Reaper and the arcane that gives health per health orb pick-up is literally capable of wielding something like Lesion and ignoring armor.  If you use Naramon for the school the Lesion will basically never leave high combo counter territory.  It's beautiful when the glassy resource farmer becomes a Rhino level tank where you can constantly be bleeding health but heal so fast that nothing has a chance to do you in.

    Alternatively, let me ask what energy hungry frames without access to specific arcanes do.  How do you sustain something like Mesa without Zenurik (sans arcane energize)?  Heck, if not that then how do you deal with the charging demolishers when you have a team composed of people who decided it was a good day to bring Bratons to a Sortie or Archon hunt...and basically unload on the enemy without scratching them?  Gotta love that slow-down on any frame.  What about void angels and the lysts (tera, gaunta, and hydro)?  Enemies made to have void contamination beat them into the dirt whilst basically immune to Unairu?

    My point is that each school now has a niche.  Unairu is a monster when it comes to armor and shields...a lot like a 4x team of corrosive projection users used to be.  That said, just like with CP there's a time and place for alternatives.  I agree that they aren't equally as useful...but my Eidolon setup is always rocking Madurai.  Grendel used to rock Zenurik, before they fixed that stupid huge energy draw.  Thermal Sunder Titania rocks Madurai, so she can eat anything not one shot with void energy.  Vazarin...well, you got me.  This school kind of sucks because it focuses on boosting durability of the operator.  It's like adding a fifth ply to toilet paper and assuming it's now bullet proof.  I...it's in need of love because it just isn't penalized enough to die as an operator.  4 out of 5 ain't bad...so I'm calling this as your opinion rather than a demonstrable fact, given the fact is that each school offers something...if only its waybounds.

     

     

     

    I know that's a lot to respond to 3 ideas, but I'm hoping you'll bear with me.  While I see where your frustrations come from I think you might be a little off the mark.  It's hard to articulate that without a lot of text...because someone 90% reasonable is infinitely harder to respond to than someone you can dismiss as completely bonkers.

    • Like 1
  22. 21 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

    never seen that in a far cry game. you got any examples?

     

    https://farcry.fandom.com/wiki/Flashbang

     

    Weapon - throwable.  Flashbang.

    Result: no death.

    Result: status effect - enemies dazed and blinded

    (other weapons in this category include grenades and knives)

     

    Warframe:

    Tranq rifle - projectile weapon

    Result: Nothing on most enemies, but specific targets are (mostly) rendered incapable of action, unless they're on Deimos and they can start attacking because.

    (other weapons in this category include...well, everything basically)

     

     

    I...find it funny that you demand an example...because it's obvious you want me to prove myself wrong for you.  Funny that you can demand that, so you can just fight whatever I say instead of accepting you are wrong.  Funny that.  It's almost like if I wanted to I could have even stated Thief.  Water arrows, moss arrows, and the blackjack.  That said, you are welcome to argue about Far Cry when it aped this feature from real stealth games where killing is bad...  

    So before you start drawing that line in the sand consider your words very carefully.  

    • Like 2
  23. 13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

    🤣LOL, mans comparing capturing to unaliving, just LOL

     

    Context.

    In one instance you find an animal trail, track it down, lure it in, and shoot it.

    In another instance you find an animal trail, track it down, lure it in, and shoot it.

     

    Note any similarities?  I'll wait.  It's pretty stupid to draw the line at "one type of shooting makes it dead and the other makes it sleep."  Also, if your novelty in a game about space ninjas is guns doing no damage but having a status effect Far Cry basically had that first too.  Not first period, just first amongst these two examples.

     

    I'm hard pressed to see how any of this is funny though.  Perhaps you should consider that the conversation was about originality...and the only thing you delivered to the party is a bad joke about players being incapable of reading and comprehending things as similar...because reasons.  That would be a sterling example of something not new...

    • Like 2
  24. 6 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

    The spendable Regal Aya is fine, and the reason for that is because the Heirloom pack only includes skins for the 2 frames, not for the weapons.

    I completely understand what you're saying, that if players want the weapons as well, they have to spend extra, but I'm talking about in context to just the Heirloom pack and what it pertains to. The weapons are not involved in that, if that makes sense?

     

    Let's logic this out...for just a minute.

     

    1) Do veterans want these packs?  No.  They don't need the regal aya, because if you're a veteran you've got everything.  You want the new stuff...which is 2 skins, 2 halos, an acolade, and the color palette.  No pack offers this, but the 90 USD one.

    2) Do new players want these packs?  No.  It's a $90 charge for 600 platinum and some skins without the ability to use them...because to use them you'd have to get the frames...which theoretically is why they included aya.  The only problem is that you then use all of your aya to purchase two frames...and have to grind out literally everything else.  Heck, buying Frost Prime and Nova Prime from another player would cost less than burning 40 USD worth of regal aya...as 40 USD worth of platinum is actually about 1500 according to DE.  They have no reason to buy this as its value sucks compared to other offerings...by DE.

     

    So...why?  Why release something that won't buy you into what you want...?  Well, 10 aya gets you the vaulted prime pack.  That'd be 20 USD+ 40 USD which would be a theoretical 60 USD value...and if you then slotted that into an heirloom bundle you'd be spending 90 USD more to get everything.  Oh goody...150 USD for access to 6ish (depending upon definition) cosmetics, 2 frames, 4 weapons, and a color palette.  Oh, and 1200 platinum (600+200+400).  Oh, but you can drop that 3 pack with the 6 inside the highest tier, and get it for 130 USD or skip the palette and be at 140 USD.

     

    Do you see the gatcha yet?  The reason I suggested that you add 7 aya to each bundle is simple.  7 buys you the pack.  7+6=13...which is one pack and 3 extra aya.  It's theoretically a 70+ USD value...meaning that the bundles are actually a value.  Thing is, the old vaulted packs used to be around 40 USD to buy...so we've effectively accepted DE increasing the price on these without ever stopping to consider aya is both poisoned from the gatcha sense and poisoned from the increased cost perspective...which frankly is a frustration.

    Let me close with this.  If DE shaved about 20 USD off of the price of every single pack I'd be happy.  It'd be a celebration to get two frames, 6ish cosmetics, and 600 platinum for 70 USD.  Right now we can purchase some pretty amazing Tennogen skins for about 7 USD (some way less).  Imagine getting 9 skins you choose for 63 USD and just buying 600 platinum for 25 USD.  2 more cosmetics, same platinum, and 2 USD cheaper than the bundle which only goes to DE (as Tennogen theoretically also pays its creators).  I'm having a hard time suggesting that any of this is a good purchase in a game with 53 frames...but if you just buy syndanas and universal cosmetics it's much easier to be even more frustrated.

     

     

    All for a frickin' halo.  Bunny ears have existed for almost a decade, but a halo is what costs as much as a AAA game.  WTF?  From my perspective as the consumer this reads as blatant greed...and I know the defenses already.  You don't have to buy it is not a defense against bad pricing.  It's agreeing I have free will.  It's for a free to play game is not a defense, as that precludes any free to play being fair.  Other people do it is a joke of a defense.  This is something we need to push back to DE with our wallets.  DO NOT BUY.  If you disagree spend your money.  I think that I'm looking at the cosmetics packs already in DE's store from Tennogen and wish they'd spent the time to rationalize why this crap deserves a captain insano price tag...because it really feels like they're trying to inflate the price of DIGITAL goods without delivering more value.  I get that they want more money...but the return for something that you paid for once and will sell infinitely with virtually no cost is...oh boy.  If you make 1 USD of that 90 USD as profit it only takes a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the players to pay back any investment you have in a few hours of artist and modeling work.  All the rest is pure profit...and that's starting to look more like greed than fair play.  

     

     

     

    Edit:

    For those who want to pretend this is "lessons learned" and it won't happen again:

    Similar to how Regal Aya bundles launched with no Platinum and were met with strong feedback, we agree Heirloom Packs need more value to justify their status.  

    I'm happy DE has changed it.  I'm frustrated that it's a slippery slope that we have to continue to pull them back from...because they obviously hoped we were too stupid to fight this time.  It's almost like this was an attempt to get things by...  I won't presume to know, but in my past life the first attempt to sneak and get caught is a loss.  The second is a denial of learning.  The third is a trend.  You...well, DE recently admitted the paid for incarnons were a cash grab because they were free to play.  If that isn't the truth then I don't know what the truth is.

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