Loyalty and Purpose

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

As a quick preface, please note this is directed towards DE AND the playerbase. Now, on to my point. Clans are essentially pointless for the average player and lonely for the veteran player. Mind you, this is an issue in most games with clan/guild systems. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but the average gamer has become lazy and whiney (in terms of MMOs at least). Clan shopping has essentially become clan hopping, wherein which the player has a checklist of things he/she wants to get from the clan without bringing anything to the table. Players have literally become leeches. More often than not - people just join a clan, grab all the bp's and stuff, then "poof" out of existence. Moreover, say they do join without intent to just horde all the things and leave - they turn out to be the player that asks for a taxi ALL the time or help in general with seemingly no intent to even learn the most basic functions of the game. If you so much as notion that they focus on clearing the star chart to avoid complications, they proceed to whine. The issue here isn't the way human nature has evolved in gaming, but rather the clan system rewarding it. I propose an EASY fix. The fact that you can join a clan for a smash and dash is ridiculous. There should be some type of timer and/or cap on the number of things new members can grab. On top of that, there should be some type of "checklist" (WITH rewards of course) that tell the newcomers help out in some way (helping another clan member in a mission, donating to some research, trading with a member, etc.) - simple stuff at least. This would ultimately, eliminate the leeching exploit AND encourage teamwork. Even if the leeches persist, now you could at least say they did there part for the clan in the time they were there. Disregarding the leeching for a moment, the incentive for STAYING in a clan is nonexistent. The only thing I can think of that even "tries" to address this is the ascension function for endo of all things. Sadly, this is negated by leeching since newcomers can snag that to if the opportunity is there. I believe this could be fixed by the previously mentioned checklist AND a separate loyalty system similar to the mastery system. As things are now, clans are pointless for the casuals, because they can just clan hop in and have access to whatever whenever. They are lonely for veterans, because most people are passer-byers for lack of a better word. Not too many people are in it for the long hall. Most clans are wither a small ghost tier of people that actually handle business or large "joke" clans that just screw around and/or are actually inactive with high numbers. I believe an incentive and revamp are the cure to fixing clans - not JUST for WF, but mmo's in general to be honest.

[GinKenshin]

 

Spoiler

 

[krc473]

28 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

eliminate the leeching exploit

Can you explain the "leeching exploit" to me? I see no exploit at all.

28 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

they proceed to whine.

Kick them. It is not hard.

28 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The fact that you can join a clan for a smash and dash is ridiculous. There should be some type of timer and/or cap on the number of things new members can grab. On top of that, there should be some type of "checklist" (WITH rewards of course) that tell the newcomers help out in some way (helping another clan member in a mission, donating to some research, trading with a member, etc.) - simple stuff at least.

I still play with most of the people that have joined my clan. And not just Warframe. This whole thing seems like a non-issue to me. You want to needlessly complicate it, for no benefit at all. Your simple stuff could be bypassed in about five minutes. And what if the clan has no research to do?

 

As for the incentive to stay in a clan, really? 

 

Why do you even care if someone joins for research and leaves? Do you not have friends in your clan that have benefited from the research? Have you not benefited from the research?

• I have let people join my clan just for the research. People want Hema, my clan has Hema. So some people have joined, got Hema and returned to their original clan.

Edited August 24, 2018 by krc473

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

The leeching exploit is the concept of people being able to join a clan and have IMMEDIATE access to all the things for no effort at all. Kicking the leeches and the whiners is a solution for the short term sure, but you're missing the main issue - the MAJORITY of the playerbase is like this. That being said, kicking soo many people is a waste of time. Moreover, going throught the recruitment process, inviting to Discord, answering questions, etc. is all a waste of time if people are just going to "smash and dash". This is why I care if someones is just grabbing things and immediately leaving. MOST people aren't forward with their intentions.  More importantly, you this new system I propose rewards loyalty and persistence. Me and others have benefited from the research. On that subject, WE were the ones that EARNED it. It's not a good feeling for someone to just hop in/out, raid your crib, and leave without so much as a thanks lol. You're last part touches on a major issue tho. People have become accustomed to thinking/playing in a "what's in it for me?" kind of wayl This is an issue in a TEAM based mechanic when these people have no sense of putting in "something" rather than just take take take and take. This is why I say the current system is flawed. I'm all ears if anyone can prove to me that it's not broken.

[krc473]

37 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

On that subject, WE were the ones that EARNED it.

I got at least 90% of the research in my clan before the current members even joined. I earned it, they benefit from it. How is that any different? I only infrequently communicate with some of them. But it does not bother me at all.

38 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

This is why I say the current system is flawed. I'm all ears if anyone can prove to me that it's not broken.

Can you prove it is flawed? I do not really see what you are saying as a flaw. For me, the system is fine. This is a difference of opinion - you care about this, I do not.

39 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The leeching exploit is the concept of people being able to join a clan and have IMMEDIATE access to all the things for no effort at all.

They have to wait for their key to build, so it is not 'immediate' access. Or they can spend some plat.

41 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

People have become accustomed to thinking/playing in a "what's in it for me?" kind of way

This appears to be exactly what you are going for too. People join and take stuff (with no additional cost to you) and you are against it. Why? What I have gathered is you feel like they do not contribute anything. You are saying: "How do I benefit from these people joining my clan?" So how are you any different at all?

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

Giving away things YOU earned is definitely up to personal opinion. However, the clan system is very much like the welfare system of western society - it creates negativity, which is a FACT. Futhermore, you're proving my first post correct in the "it's lonely for veterans" portions. NOBODY wants to hop in and help build a clan up. When it IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED, you get people popping in. However, it's just that - popping in. Even after getting everything in order, there's STILL a high number of people willing to come through but not stay to help maintain and improve. This is a tell tell sign of a flawed system.

The TEAM/clan system currently DOES NOT encourage/incentivize TEAMwork. Moreover, it essentially REWARDS players who did not pitch in anything at all with goodies earned by others. If that is not a flaw to you, I do not know what is. As far as the "immediate access" comment, I know you know exactly what I meant, so mincing words is irrelevant. Lastly, I am different because I'm not just asking people to join so i can benefit. i'm asking for MUTUAL benefits across the board. It's like the old saying "You scratch my back, I scratch yours". I'm not just "taking" while not bringing anything to the table like most people. I'm simply asking for jolly/REWARDING cooperation. 

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

Still curious to know other player's, other developer's, and DE's opinions. I'm also, VERY open to any counterarguments.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

This guy gets it btw 

 

[OneFlyingDog]

OP, I like your idea, if only we can bring it to real life, you can get rid of the entire HR department and leadership training. Imagine how much savings it would be to corporate all over the world. But alas, that is a pipe dream, the responsibility of FILTERING and LEADING always fall on the leader and their officers.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

All I'm saying is that in the game, (Hell even the real world!), we suffer from an issue of handing out attendance trophies. Mind you, it's not even perfect attendance, but rather selective attendance. There needs to be some type of system in clans based on pure MERIT rather than being able to join, not say anything, get everyone else's hard earned prizes, and leave wasting everyone's time only to repeat the cycle in the next patch/update. 

As things are, we are still in a state similar to that hinted at in the OLD thread I linked. For the most part, we have big "joke" clans that are dead and/or don't really do anything OR a small clan like mine just looking for people who care to actually build a strong foundation TOGETHER.

If you really look at the game overall - not just clan-wise, you can easily see that DE panders to new and casual players in order to garner a wider audience consistently. I really do believe that they KNOW full well the clan system is flawed. 

Lastly, filtering and leading are not the issues at hand. You can't lead the typical clan hoppers due to them never sticking around for too long. You can't filter out who's in it for the long run, because people tend say one thing and do another. The issue is that the system REWARDS this behavior and DOES NOT incentivize TEAMWORK. Think about it like a corporation as you mentioned. If I work my way up to some type of Prestige package over the course of a year, does someone who joined the company just YESTERDAY deserve access to the same package as me?

[Sean]

I suppose more options wouldn't hurt, though I'm personally fine with allowing new people to just join and get all the things they need to rank up, I'd actually wish people could access their clan's dojo quicker and DE just did away with the whole dojo key idea (or at least heavily lessen the 12h timer on it).

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

14 hours ago, Sean said:

I suppose more options wouldn't hurt, though I'm personally fine with allowing new people to just join and get all the things they need to rank up, I'd actually wish people could access their clan's dojo quicker and DE just did away with the whole dojo key idea (or at least heavily lessen the 12h timer on it).

Sadly, I still think allowing people to just hop in and get EVERYTHING immediately is perpetuating the issue.. I think their should be a cap on how much newer members can "take out" each day, OR better yet a system that gives clan members tasks/missions that involve helping clan members/donating to things if applicable/ etc, that essentially UNLOCK their ability to EARN stuff that the other clan members have most likely already worked for. The reward loop has been PROVEN to give a sense of pride and accomplishment. Simply HANDING stuff out has created the "whiners" we see today. There's a REASON DE panders to these people. You can't be blind to these facts.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

Also, I just want to point out the hypocrisy of the community for a sec. Think about the recent uproar of the login reward revamp. How is it that people can be mad at that (which I'M not btw), but not at the clan hopping pandering? Just some food for thought. 

[K1ngR1chard]

This is why some people like myself join clans that have minimum requirements to join (hours) and hard rules.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying clans should have requirements to JOIN them. I'm saying there should be some type of requirement to TAKE things out all willy nilly.. If anyone in the community, INCLUDING DE themselves, can justify rewarding clan hoppers/smash and grabbers vs. the people that actually EARNED the items, I'm all ears. I'm sure we ALL know about the Hema struggle. I'll be damned if I intentionally allow all that hard work be "given" away.

As I mentioned prior, the TEAM based clan system does NOT incentivize teamwork, and REWARDS solo nooblet clan hopping. If anyone can justify how this system IS NOT flawed, PLEASE prove your case. 

[DreisterDino]

Am 24.8.2018 um 12:22 schrieb Dark.Chaoz.Bringer:

"checklist" (WITH rewards of course) that tell the newcomers help out in some way (helping another clan member in a mission, donating to some research, trading with a member, etc.)

In my clan everyone who "earned" the research doesnt need help in missions, there is nothing that needs donations because everything is researched, and even if they might need something to be traded, it will be something a newcomer wont have for sure. So all of these suggestions are pretty bad.

 

Besides, why do you even care about that? I couldnt care less about a newcomer getting some blueprints he cant get somewhere else. Also, he still needs all the credits and ressources to build all that stuff which will take him alot of time to aquire anyway.

 

The only purpose to be in a clan is to get those things, like you said there is no reason at all to be in a clan besides that and having a better spot to perform trades in.

If DE fails to implement any reason to make clans interesting and useful besides that, why should we be mad on players that use then Clan for what it is: a place to get Blueprints from.

 

PS: I joined a clan a long time ago (leeched all the blueprints aswell 🤓) and now i am just happy to have a place where i can talk to and play with the same guys i got to know there.

I dont care for the people who leave again, i care for the people that stay. Deep words eh? 😀

Edited August 30, 2018 by DreisterDino

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

29 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

In my clan everyone who "earned" the research doesnt need help in missions, there is nothing that needs donations because everything is researched, and even if they might need something to be traded, it will be something a newcomer wont have for sure. So all of these suggestions are pretty bad.

 

I know you know that I meant this as an example. The emphasis is to get people to at the very least INTERACT with each other such as partnering up in a mission at the very least. Encouraging and rewarding people to work together, even on a trivial level, helps build bonds.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Dark.Chaoz.Bringer
mistake

[DreisterDino]

You do not "strenghten bonds" with forcing some stupid mechanics on clanmembers like "trade x amount of times with another clanmember".

Only thing that does it that 10 ammo drums will be pushed back and forth until it is done so you can get the blueprints.

You strenghten bonds while chatting with your clanmembers, playing with your clanmembers or talking with them in Discord/Skype.

 

I agree, i would like to see more purpose to clans in Warframe. More that could be done in Dojos. More ways achieving something together.

But not in a way you proposed.

In regards to the BP-leeching, "who cares" is a valid argument, because again, why should i care that a random player gets a BP for a random object? I am not affected by that in any way, never.

Edited August 30, 2018 by DreisterDino

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

33 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 

Besides, why do you even care about that? I couldnt care less about a newcomer getting some blueprints he cant get somewhere else. Also, he still needs all the credits and ressources to build all that stuff which will take him alot of time to aquire anyway.

 

 

 

Firstly, I care about this because it's simply not fair to the people that unlocked it in the 1st place, which by the way, nobody STILL has made a valid counter argument for. Secondly, it makes the screening process more tedious than it needs to be. Since there is no downside to clan hopping, people know and exploit it without making their intentions known even with asking them out of courtesy to avoid wasting a member slot and time. Let's say we get into a situation where we need help farming another Hema (Space Jesus help us all), the leeches are gonna be silent or grab what they can and duck out. The issue here is that it's tedious to find those who will actually be on the same helpful page.

 

 

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

36 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 

The only purpose to be in a clan is to get those things, like you said there is no reason at all to be in a clan besides that and having a better spot to perform trades in.

 

 

 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM lol.

 

[Aisu9]

for kicking leecher, mayba add some kind of mark, and when they got 2 of them, there cannot longuer join THIS mission, but yeah, there are always people to troll and instant kick random player, but with vote system, maybe this not happen
--------------------------------------------
Or add blacklist (personal, or clan list), player in this list cannot be longuer in your squad, yeah this will puch leecher betwen them, and they gonna cry, but hey, your are leecher, your only reward is to mess with other people like you

Edited August 30, 2018 by Aisu9

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

38 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

If DE fails to implement any reason to make clans interesting and useful besides that, why should we be mad on players that use then Clan for what it is: a place to get Blueprints from.

Again, this is the problem. Also, I never once said I was mad at players themselves. I simply said the system is flawed and needs a revamp.

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Dark.Chaoz.Bringer:

Firstly, I care about this because it's simply not fair to the people that unlocked it in the 1st place

Ok, then make your clan private to yourself so nobody can get anything anymore that he didnt put ressources in.

Or make it open only to people that are MR25 and have everything already.

Once something is researched, everyone who joins after that will "leech" that blueprint.

 

 

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

40 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

I dont care for the people who leave again, i care for the people that stay. Deep words eh? 😀

 Those words are not "deep", but the intent is well received. I don't care for those that leave again OR stay. I care for those that GET THINGS DONE on the same page. Anyone can simply be present.

In your own words, we both see the painfully obvious issues. The only difference is that you and many others are fine with perpetuating the issue due to the "who cares?" fallacy. I (and only a few others sadly), on the other hand, want to actually STRENGTHEN the bonds of clans and change the mindset of the community from lazy and deceiving to active and cooperative as far as clans are concerned. 

As mentioned in an earlier post, I STILL challenge anyone to prove that the system is fine as is. Saying "who cares?" is not a valid argument.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

8 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

You do not "strenghten bonds" with forcing some stupid mechanics on clanmembers like "trade x amount of times with another clanmember".

Only thing that does it that 10 ammo drums will be pushed back and forth until it is done so you can get the blueprints.

You strenghten bonds while chatting with your clanmembers, playing with your clanmembers or talking with them in Discord/Skype.

 

I agree, i would like to see more purpose to clans in Warframe. More that could be done in Dojos. More ways achieving something together.

But not in a way you proposed.

In regards to the BP-leeching, "

Pretty sure I made it abundantly clear that I just made a vague example of sorts. More importantly, I'm pretty sure I made it clear that running some missions together would be a start. In my 1st post, I hint at adding clan-specific alerts in the "system". That being said, I agree with the ammo drum thing lol and the Discord obviously. The issue STILL remains of weeding through those not interested in that teamwork/bonding being tedious due to rewarding the bs.