Loyalty and Purpose

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

8 minutes ago, Aisu9 said:

for kicking leecher, mayba add some sort of mark, and when they got 2 of them, there cannot longuerjoin THIS mission, but yeah, there are always people to troll and instant kick random player, but with vote system, maybe this not happen

I wouldn't say mark them for being kicked per say, but rather have a system that marks clan hoppers themselves as a way to warn people that they are known to waste the time/efforts of others. I believe you're on to something at the very least.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

7 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Ok, then make your clan private to yourself so nobody can get anything anymore that he didnt put ressources in.

Or make it open only to people that are MR25 and have everything already.

Once something is researched, everyone who joins after that will "leech" that blueprint.

 

 

I suppose that whole concept of me wanting to foster and encourage teamwork skipped your mind?....

[DreisterDino]

I have said everything i wanted to say.

Just one last thing: You can add mutliple quotes to one post and edit posts, there is no need to make a post for every sentence that comes to your mind 🙃

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

I have said everything i wanted to say.

Just one last thing: You can add mutliple quotes to one post and edit posts, there is no need to make a post for every sentence that comes to your mind 🙃

I'm happy you got everything but a plausible solution off your chest. As far as the multi quote system, I legit couldn't find a suitable fast way to use it. I admit to my ignorance as I do not frequent the forums. Good day sir/ma'am/whatever gender you claim.

[OneFlyingDog]

On 2018-08-28 at 6:49 AM, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

All I'm saying is that in the game, (Hell even the real world!), we suffer from an issue of handing out attendance trophies. Mind you, it's not even perfect attendance, but rather selective attendance. There needs to be some type of system in clans based on pure MERIT rather than being able to join, not say anything, get everyone else's hard earned prizes, and leave wasting everyone's time only to repeat the cycle in the next patch/update. 

I think the term "time bandits" should be familiar to you if you are talking about corporate issues. I agree with you that clan management tools are inadequate, however as someone pointed out you cannot solve human relationship issues with a computerized system. Not in game or in real life.

On 2018-08-28 at 6:49 AM, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

As things are, we are still in a state similar to that hinted at in the OLD thread I linked. For the most part, we have big "joke" clans that are dead and/or don't really do anything OR a small clan like mine just looking for people who care to actually build a strong foundation TOGETHER.

Who doesn't? In game and in real life.

---

If you really look at the game overall - not just clan-wise, you can easily see that DE panders to new and casual players in order to garner a wider audience consistently. I really do believe that they KNOW full well the clan system is flawed. 

So what has new and casual players got to do with this situation? I am a casual player, and I run a one-man-clan since inception, solo contribution to research, so I do think I am qualified to say I know what hard work you are talking about.

---

Lastly, filtering and leading are not the issues at hand.

Right, you need the Devs to do it... or the guilty parties to do it themselves?

---

You can't lead the typical clan hoppers due to them never sticking around for too long.

"There is nothing quite so useless, as doing with great efficiency, something that should not be done at all." - Peter Drucker

---

You can't filter out who's in it for the long run, because people tend say one thing and do another.

People either leave when they found something better or you did not meet their expectations. Either way, it means the leader under-performed. Of course there are those plain bandits and scammers which nothing much can be done about it.

---

The issue is that the system REWARDS this behavior and DOES NOT incentivize TEAMWORK.

If you want a team, you need to work on building a team, which is based on trust, not on some rewards that the dev pass out. If rewards stops, and loyalty stops, can you still call it loyalty?

---

Think about it like a corporation as you mentioned. If I work my way up to some type of Prestige package over the course of a year, does someone who joined the company just YESTERDAY deserve access to the same package as me?

It depends, what are you going to do about it? It happens all the time, what can you do about it?

I am not against what you have in mind about people "stealing" your hard work, there are those who like to give away, and there are those who wants to be compensated. That's fine. What it has to do with loyalty and purpose... I guess I am too stupid to figure it out based on what you wrote.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

5 hours ago, OneFlyingDog said:

I think the term "time bandits" should be familiar to you if you are talking about corporate issues. I agree with you that clan management tools are inadequate, however as someone pointed out you cannot solve human relationship issues with a computerized system. Not in game or in real life.

I am not against what you have in mind about people "stealing" your hard work, there are those who like to give away, and there are those who wants to be compensated. That's fine. What it has to do with loyalty and purpose... I guess I am too stupid to figure it out based on what you wrote.

We are defineately on the same page as the other guy who tried to discredit my argument. However, you are misunderstanding my standpoint. I'm not trying to solve human relationships. As I've said MANY times before thus far, I want to simply incentivize and reward TEAMWORK. This can be done in SEVERAL ways that even disregard my examples. 

New and casual players are related to this in such a way, that the mindsets of people are shifted towards solo play in a TEAM system. People are either clan hoppers or solo mlgs that just want to get all the things. 

On the part about filtering, you took apart and/or disregarded the rest of my earlier reply. I don't want DE to DO everything. I'm simply asking for better tools and ways in general to make the process more fluid and accurate.

As far as the quote goes, that doesn't necessarily apply purposefully when dealing with others unless you're already on the same page. You can't efficiently do much of anything in a clan if the members are not in some type of sync/understanding. I admit tho,  I could be misunderstanding it.

People leaving a clan, let alone other's behavior IN GENERAL, is not the fault or reflection of the clan leader. Long ago, I had a batch of people leave because they wanted to socialize with one another and stated nobody wanted to talk to each other. I had Discord and some other useful things at the time for them to use. Guess how many people made use of it to start conversation? I can't MAKE people talk or do anything. People are responsible for, and sometimes even fail THEMSELVES.

In terms of building a team, I'm pretty sure that I made it clear I'm PRO-teamwork in damn near ALL my posts so far, so I'm not sure what else to say lol. I agree that trust is a MAJOR part of a clan trying to get things done. I never said that rewards are the "key". I simply stated incentives would help foster team building. Clan rewards stopping loyalty is like base game rewards stopping players from playing the game overall. My point here is that if there were no gameplay loop (rewards and farming), there would be no game. WF has been going for like 5 years. I think it's fair to say that rewards help build a base period at this point.

On note of the corporation example, I don't know of ANY place that rewards new hires with the huge packages of those who've been there for like 5 years and/or are retiring. Clan hopping is like new hires walking in to the spot, saying I want the managers reward package, then leaving. If you can justify giving that away, I think we're done here lol.

I do applaud you for your input tho. As always, I still challenge others to either prove that the system is working effectively or add more ideas on how we can fix this mess. 

 

 

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

I just want to add that even if MY suggestions are deemed wrong, I'm still waiting for a better idea of how to fix this mess in general.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

This guy seems to get it 

 

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

Okay. Clan benefits outside of Blueprints which can be rather immediatly accessed are kind of slim right now. For the most part, my clan keeps 9 players (friends) on the roster while rotating newer players thought the 10th slot for those BPs. The 10th player then has the opportunity to access out Alliance and then get recruited by a larger clan within the alliance (depending on personal preference; ie- raids *gone*, PVE, PVP etc). So sure, most of the player base is fair-weather but there's no reason you can't come up with your own system of filtering out what you call "leeches." Don't forget to be friendly, you might just find that bonding experience you were looking for.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)LoneWolf_001 said:

Okay. Clan benefits outside of Blueprints which can be rather immediatly accessed are kind of slim right now. For the most part, my clan keeps 9 players (friends) on the roster while rotating newer players thought the 10th slot for those BPs. The 10th player then has the opportunity to access out Alliance and then get recruited by a larger clan within the alliance (depending on personal preference; ie- raids *gone*, PVE, PVP etc). So sure, most of the player base is fair-weather but there's no reason you can't come up with your own system of filtering out what you call "leeches." Don't forget to be friendly, you might just find that bonding experience you were looking for.

Not only is your point contradictory, but it also brings to light a GREAT point I may not have made clear earlier. Starting with the contradiction, you agree that MOST of the player base is fair-weather. The issue here is not whether I can come up with a filtering system. The issue is that DE needs to make this EASIER to do. If most of the player base are lazy leech types. Filtering the bull is like trying to find the legendary "gem" in music nowadays. It's not a matter of IF I can sift. It's a matter of making IMPROVEMENTS to sift.

The great issue you pointed out is the fact that it's hard to make friends within Warframe. I'm not talking about the typical passer-byers or on/off again associates. I'm mean friends as in ride or die types that get things done and are in sync without directions among each other. That being said, I'd argue that being friendly all willy nilly is only helping perpetuate the problem. I can almost guarantee that the people that are "friendly" and simply give stuff away ALL the time (especially to the same person over and over) are creating the same lazy undependable people we both clearly acknowledge. As I stated before, the clan system is being used by players much like welfare irl. Unsurprisingly enough, it has the same negative effects. These same people who get the freebies are the same ones that drop the game in mass. Much like you cycle the leeches in that 10th slot you mention, DE cycles the leeches out in the playerbase with more leeches in MOST cases.

Lastly, call me crazy, but I prefer NOT to start with immediate friendship. I feel that people who are "friendly" tend to either be used and abused and/or the users or abusers - very disingenuous basically. Personally, I START with mutual respect as a base. Then, comes the friendship. The end product is brotherhood. All those clans that advertise very friendly, tend to be the big dead joke clans I mention in earlier posts. They just make people feel good. In my clan fee fees are the last of our worries. We are real people coming together to achieve common goals. We have real conversations and such. There's no censorship. Inactivity is not defined as just being offline for a long time, but being online all the time and not doing anything clan participation wise as well. Being friendly is fine in and of itself, but that's what the friend list is for.

[(PSN)SifuPurpleWolf]

On 2018-08-24 at 6:51 AM, krc473 said:

Can you explain the "leeching exploit" to me? I see no exploit at all.

Kick them. It is not hard.

I still play with most of the people that have joined my clan. And not just Warframe. This whole thing seems like a non-issue to me. You want to needlessly complicate it, for no benefit at all. Your simple stuff could be bypassed in about five minutes. And what if the clan has no research to do?

 

As for the incentive to stay in a clan, really? 

 

Why do you even care if someone joins for research and leaves? Do you not have friends in your clan that have benefited from the research? Have you not benefited from the research?

• I have let people join my clan just for the research. People want Hema, my clan has Hema. So some people have joined, got Hema and returned to their original clan.

i couldn't of said it better myself

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Crimmson_knight said:

i couldn't of said it better myself

You just flat out ignored all of my points and rebuttals....

[Himenoinu]

Your point of view is quite skewed.

But let's say I can understand that, since your topic's post also contains the word "purpose". However, that is where you should focus your attention at, instead of the "loyalty" bit.

The purpose of the clan, once the research is done and the blueprints have long since be turned back into credits is non-existent for now - not from your point of view, at least.

A clan is, from my, a group of either real life friends, or in-game buddies that want to continue playing together. I don't like recruiting for the sake of recruiting, of growing the clan for no end purpose. Now, if there would be an end-game activity of sorts involving clans - maybe rebuilding a relay (instead of Steel Meridian doing the tennos' job for us), maybe clan raids, maybe clan battles, etc - then you would have a purpose beyond just grabbing the BPs or chatting/playing with actual friends.

Then you'd have reason to put in requirements for joining. Then the players' loyalty towards the guild would start growing, based on successful activities. Then you'd stop whining about these things, even if for every player joining your guild you'd have also a leecher joining. You know why?! Because you'd spend less time checkin' the roster every moment. You'd have things to do with the people in your guild and being a busy bee, you'd have no mood nor time to spare to role-play the immigration officer.

 

Bottom line, from my point of view, it looks like you're holding a conference about climate change and its effects and, after you mention that the former has led to a lot less snowfall in some parts of the world, you continue with a monologue about how much you love skiing and all the ways climate change has affected your hobby.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Himenoinu

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

My point of view is that the TEAM based system does NOT reward and incentivize TEAMWORK. Not one person so far has justified the system is fine as is, so I'm failing to see how that is wrong at all. 

Viewing clans as mere credit fodder via bp's just shows your own short-sightedness. I'm not going to say there's  a TON of things to do other than snag all the things, but there are things to do clan wise with purpose.

A clan can indeed be just a group of friends the same way a clan can be comprised of veterans and/or like minded people in general. The issue here is trying to see what your working with for what you have in mind. Let's say I want to get a group of ppl for end game survivals that are meant to help us improve on synergies and such. Anyone can say "I'm interested", but not really be into what the clan's goals are. Moreover, they can just be the leeches described earlier in this thread. All I'm saying is that time is too valuable of a thing to waste and DE could put a system of sorts in order to sift through the bs. Also, If you are recruiting for the sake of recruiting, that is on YOU. That's not something I do at all just for the hell of it.

As far as requirements for joining, I NEVER even brought that up as a proposition. Quote me on it if you have that proof available. The only "requirement" ,if any, for my clan is to have similar goals in mind and not be an SJW. Also, I like how you refer to my pointing out of flaws and calling for ideas of how to improve things as "whining". That is what the cool kids call "cute" I assume. You mentioned growing loyalty via successful activities, which shows you either missed or disregarded my original post. This is quite literally one of the things I mentioned as a solution. In terms of being in a "mood", the only mood I've been in is passionate. In regards to your immigration officer comment, all I can really say is grow up if that applies. 

Bottom line, me simply going off the principal of "Don't waste our time, and we won't waste yours." is objectively reasonable. Also, a new ray of sunshine would be nice and uplifting for clans even if you yourself are opposed.

 

[Himenoinu]

56 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I like how you refer to my pointing out of flaws and calling for ideas of how to improve things as "whining"

The flaws are not with the game, it's with the people. DE can't hotfix our behavior. No law can "fix" this. As for games, the more a dev tries to prevent the bad behavior of the annoying few, the more they manage to dishearten the decent many. Look at Tera, look at Aion, look at virtually any online game. And the only solution to these flaws are more rigorous recruiting practices.

You keep mentioning it even in your reply to my pokes... "The issues is trying to see what you're* working with for what you have in mind". That is not DE's problem. They can't randomly guess what every guild leader has in mind to make a system that also guesses what every player has in mind so that they can live happily ever after. It's your task as a guild officer/general/god/god-of-god to sort out your roster, to plan your recruiting strategies and requirements. Not anyone else's. That's it.

In GW1 times, high end guilds would demand proof of your skills (both screenshots and vids), would have level requirement for titles and would actually run something with you as a guest long before they'd consider taking you in. In Aion, something similar was happening. Same goes with pretty much any game that had a guild/clan/whatever. The flaws you mention are 100% community's fault and it's the community's task to fix'em in one way or another.

1 hour ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

You mentioned growing loyalty via successful activities, which shows you either missed or disregarded my original post.

90% of your OP is a rapid-fire complaint about disloyal guildmates who leech, who steal or whatever else they do that griefs you. So, again, you're pointing out the flaws in us as people. Not in the game's systems. Purpose (as mentioned in the title) is being given very little attention and all your solutions focus pretty much exclusively on making sure you don't let in an undesirable individual. So no, I don't think I did 😄

1 hour ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Bottom line, me simply going off the principal of "Don't waste our time, and we won't waste yours." is objectively reasonable.

I wholeheartedly agree. I also dare to say that you have yet again pointed out that the issue is not with the game. But with the people. And again, your topic's title is misleading, as you don't care about the guild's purpose (clan, sorry!), but just about newbies not stealing from you the precious BPs.

The solution is incoming, from my point of view - this year or the next - with the new guild activities that DE keeps rethinking. Not that THAT will solve the problems you kept pointing out throughout the whole thread. Without a purpose, the guild is just a drive-through and - in my case - each time someone joins I tell'em exactly that ("dig in the labs, get what you need, stay if you like, go if you want"). As such, I'm a bit confused as who needs to grow up 😄

I can understand you getting carried away by the emotions caused by too many people flowing through your guild without contributing in the slightest to your guild's objectives. I'm guessing it's why you have almost entirely ignored the more important aspect of guilds (other than that clickbait mention in the title).

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

If we're going to be specific here, I never once said it was MY problem or DE's problem. I simply said the clan system is A PROBLEM - or simply flawed to be exact as I put it. Moreover, I never stated a "law" be put into place to "fix" peoples behavior. I stated that DE needs to add systems that REWARD and INCENTIVIZE TEAMwork. Reward loops tend to skew peoples mindsets for the better. A prime example of this, is you playing the game in general I'm willing to bet (mentioned earlier in reference to someone else). Also, the bad behaviors of a "few" actually seem to be MANY in my experience and hearing from others. The "many" you're talking about disheartening is most likely the new and/or casual audience that DE obviously panders to. To a degree this ok, but overall the pandering is hurtful. At the very least you have to call a spade a spade. Furthermore, more rigorous recruiting practices are A solution for sure. However, like I stated in my last reply, DE needs to add some ways to make this process EASIER. People benefit from working smarter - not harder.

I'm fully aware that DE can't read minds. I'm sure you know full well I'm not asking them to either. My counter to that is a call for an easy fix. If a potential leech can view everything my clan has to offer, we should be able to view a newly implemented clan history page of sorts of the potential member in question. I like to use business examples as you may have noticed so follow me on this. Let's view my clan as a business and a recruit that wants to join the company. There;s essentially no "resume" for us to look at other than a few trivial stats. You can have all the rigorous recruiting strategies and requirements that you want, but as things are now, you really have no idea what you're working with until they are already there potentially wasting any effort/time involved. Something as simple as a "clan hopper" mark (mentioned by someone else earlier I believe) or a clan activity log would help decrease such losses and help leaders/members better decide if a recruit checks out. 

Moving on to your next point. I agree for the MOST part. I make that abundantly clear in my first post. Overall, the community is a fault for gaming the system. However, what many don't want to look at is the creators of the system ( DE), remaining silent about it and seemingly choosing NOT to fix it due to the need to pander to such individuals. This is essentially the welfare example I used at least twice in this thread now btw. My point is that DE is inadvertently at fault for ENABLING such behavior and/or remaining silent. Please do not misunderstand tho, it is still a "shame on you" type of ordeal when referencing the community's hand in this.

In regards to my OP, my post wasn't merely a compilation of complaints. I brought up several examples of issues AND possible solutions for them. I'd also like to add that this is not about ME ME ME. It's about fostering a better COMMUNITY, which even you admit is messed up for lack of a better word. The PURPOSE I mention is simply to foster stronger bonds via jolly cooperation and interacting within the clan. That being said, my possible solutions since my 1st post have been geared towards this and has yet to change. Also, I'm not hiding the fact that NOT letting in undesirable individuals is a part of it. For example, If I'm running a trucking business, why would I hire someone that has no experience or even INTEREST in trucking. I'd argue that this contradicts your recruiting for the sake of recruiting statement mentioned earlier. With all this in mind, I find you DID misunderstand my point.

The topic is not misleading at all. Since the OP, I've been fairly consistent in my standpoint - the clan system is FLAWED. It does not REWARD and incentivize teamwork. Moreover, it PANDERS and ENABLES not only the leeching behavior I keep using as a prime example, but the "solo mlg what's the point anyway?"  mindset as well. If you can spot any inconsistencies in my arguments, pls cite them. One of a clan's major purposes is to foster teamwork. DE does little to nothing to incentivize it other than say "here are some things in some labs you can attain". Also, again, I have to point out this is not a me me me thing related to my precious BP's. I simply hate that the community seems to be a majority of leeches and/or charity cases. The more we simply hand out, the more of a disservice we're actually doing them and ourselves in the grand scheme of things.

In the news of DE. maybe DE will add some more clan activities. Maybe they won't. The underlying issue still remains - a revamp is STILL needed. I do agree with the fact that dojos have essentially become drive thrus though. However, you immediately resort to hypocrisy and renege on your previous statement. You seemingly admit to recruiting for the sake of recruiting AND enabling the bad habits of the community you agreed existed prior. With all this in mind, I've come to believe you are either very young and/or confused. Your logic and standpoint seem flawed and weak.

Lastly, I'm not getting "carried away by emotions" as you put it. As I stated previously, this is not a ME ME ME thing. Moreover, I'm pretty sure the most important part of a TEAM based system is the TEAMwork part of it. This seems to harken to you own confusion yet again. More importantly, I'll leave you with the reality of the situation (more than I already have). Let's say I'm wrong in my ideas and solutions for the sake of the argument. Other than discredit my ideas, you (or anyone else so far except for like one person I think) have yet to either justify the current system OR propose a better solution. Seems very telling to me. 

 

[Himenoinu]

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I stated that DE needs to add systems that REWARD and INCENTIVIZE

not teamwork, but staying in the guild and gaining "ranks" before being able to leave the main hall. Restrictions, that is, because humans love them. It's what makes us better, more friendly towards each other.

 

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The "many" you're talking about disheartening is most likely the new and/or casual audience that DE obviously panders to

Example: Tera's bots. Not many. But enough to make a dent in the publisher/developer's image and finances. Solution implemented: all loot gets stripped from mobs. End result: disgruntled playerbase.
In our particular case, when there's no reason to even have a clan past the BP acquisition and architectural challenges, the solutions you propose - that make the game even more complicated at its basic level - will solve very little. Just imagine the frustration one would feel when, after waiting 12 hours to build the key, they'd have to go through yet more hoops and loops before actually enjoying any benefits whatsoever. I don't like to trade. Having the game force me to trade with my clan mates is annoying. Demanding of me to run X missions with other clan mates that are either doing something I don't like or things way beyond my MR is dumb. All this to get a Zephyr BP or whatever weapon that I'mma throw away 1 month later. . No, thanks!

 

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

There;s essentially no "resume" for us to look at other than a few trivial stats.

Because we can't check the player's profile. MR. Gear leveled, Missions played/aborted/failed. Time spent in the game. "Clans joined" would be half-useful, but without the whole background story of the person joining and then leaving/getting kicked, it's irrelevant. If one can't draw conclusions based on the current player information, one should refrain from recruiting altogether.

 

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

It's about fostering a better COMMUNITY, which even you admit is messed up for lack of a better word.

It is. The cover of anonymity brings the worst in us, apparently. But more rules, loops, restrictions and regulations won't make us a better community - just a few more happy overlords. It's here that I keep poking you over. It's not the rules or background checks that need to be implemented, but actual guild activities. Various types of, so various people could get together based on their activity preferences. You seem more interested in something else.

 

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The topic is not misleading at all. Since the OP, I've been fairly consistent in my standpoint - the clan system is FLAWED. It does not REWARD and incentivize teamwork.

2 things here. First, he clan system is old and all activities clan-related have been all but removed from the game. So no, it's not flawed, it's void - but only after one has finished the research and has built all there was to be built. Decorating rooms is little different than drawing lines on the wall in a cell, when that is the only clan activity one can get involved in.

2nd, you hammered all the things that incentivize a good and orderly behavior in confinement. Not teamwork. I do believe I said it, but repeating doesn't hurt: You don't need more tools in the recruitment process. You do need activities after that is completed. Your OP has nothing about solutions on that. Just on punishing your clan leechers, I've read nothing about stuff like guild raids, guild puzzles, relays rebuilding (coupled with a more intense invasion cycle), fishing/mining activities to make Cetus visually more appealing, syndicates themed guild tasks, etc.

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

However, you immediately resort to hypocrisy and renege on your previous statement. You seemingly admit to recruiting for the sake of recruiting AND enabling the bad habits of the community you agreed existed prior.

No I don't. I have no requirements. I didn't say why I recruited the people I did, just what I did not demand of them. "Players helping players" has to be a very alien and awkward concept to you though 😄 Still, to clarify, I took 2 people in 8 months (yeah, I'm not here since the invention of the wheel), because they were new and me and my lady wanted to help'em get into gear, both systems-wise and equipment. So, sorry, but I recruit for the sake of helping. I know, batsh!t crazy notion - that will NEVER foster a better COMMUNITY. 😉

 

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Other than discredit my ideas, you (or anyone else so far except for like one person I think) have yet to either justify the current system OR propose a better solution.

It depends on what you read from what people post. More precisely, what you understand. Twisting notions and statements to fit your narrative can go a long way to prove you right. Also, if I didn't manage to be clear in my statements before, I hope the 2nd point above helps. You become a better person and become invested in a team activity when people treat you well. Or you don't - maybe you're already perfect and the guild that just recruited you is not up to par - but in both cases the relation is terminated, with no hard feelings... or should be...

I disapprove of some of your ideas, the ranting is exclusively about the players and the solutions you propose - to fix the players - are making joining a clan undesirable - to the point where probably every new player would be just "Frell it! I'mma make my own clan!". Maybe Railjack will be clan-task. Maybe Venus will bring more clan challenges that a random group would have a much harder time overcoming. Those solutions won't fix your problem with peoplel stealing your BPs though 😛

[---RV---Maniac]

I would be happy with a warframe event that actually had leaderboards for clans to incentivize playing in it and work as a clan. Like top donating clans of each tier would appear on the list somewhere as a reward for their efforts. Like how the founders have their name placed on relays above where baro spawns. You could even have a top for alliances.

But nah let's make an event really rushed with a bunch of random stuff to do like we are just unlocking some crappy junction and have no leaderboards or clan involvement cuz nothing says community based like ignoring all of your clans and alliances in a warframe "event".

You could also track down leeches based on who actually bothered to contribute for your clan.

[Himenoinu]

On 2018-08-30 at 1:42 PM, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Pretty sure I made it abundantly clear that I just made a vague example of sorts. More importantly, I'm pretty sure I made it clear that running some missions together would be a start. In my 1st post, I hint at adding clan-specific alerts in the "system".

No, you did not. I know the OP is kind of a mess, layout-wise, hard to read, but going through it 3 times in a row, you do make some points abundantly clear, all true, just not "fixable" and you don't make it clear that the example is vague, quite the contrary. More importantly, I'm pretty sure you don't remember what you wrote. Or how you wrote it 😄 Because MR system for clans with running missions with a clan mate is not a "clan-specific alert". You phrased it all around the notion of coercion, hell-bent on restricting access to your hard earned valuables to the undeserving and while you argued onward against people pointing that out, you did systematically return to the same pimple.

You can't fix humankind. You just can't. It's broken beyond repair. Accept that our trashy nature slipped into the games we're playing at full strength and try to focus on things that can make this virtual environment more pleasant.

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

I'm not asking for mere "restrictions". It's more like asking for barriers to entry and/or actual GOALS rather than HANDOUTS (constantly). People are more likely to cherish things when they've earned them in some way. The reward loop in gaming remains a constant example of this fact.

Getting to the more shocking portion of your reply, comparing Tera bots to casuals/noobs in Warframe is not accurate at all. Also, if you view a system that rewards you with BPs on top of other stuff for something as simple as interacting with your clan mates as "hoops" or "complicated", I'm not sure what else to say. Specifically, I want to point out how you refer to my example of running x mission adding "possible too high of an MR requirement". Firstly, I DID NOT specify an MR requirement for clan missions. Secondly, that (and my other) propositions ARE NOT the end all be all. They are only ideas/possibilities I'm bringing to the table. More importantly, your unwillingness to do a simple task like  running a mission with a teammate UNLESS it benefits you immediately shows your selfish nature. 

In terms of the current player stats we can look at, I just want to point out that you mentioned MR as a useful stat to know. I would hope that you and I both know that MR means nothing in this game. I know many low MR vets on alt accounts and the like. The only useful part of stats I can agree on is the missions abandoned/completed portion. Other than that MR and all the other stuff tell you nothing about the person's true character. That being said, nothing can ever 100% tell you a person's "true" intent. All I ever asked for was more stats on the matter. There's nothing "complicated" about that and seems like arguably the quickest "fix" out of anything I brought up.

The clan system is void BECAUSE it is flawed. Clans should have been more than a BP hub from the start is my point.

2nd, All the things I mentioned that reward good orderly behavior are not related to "confinement" at all. If you view staying in a clan to receive some benefits (that would most likely be similar to the current login rewards) as "confinement", that says to me that you never liked your clan to begin with and have CHOSEN to stay for selfish purposes. Nobody's "forced" to stay anywhere they don't want to be or do anything they don't want to. My concept of just adding a little something on the side for those that are consistent is not "confinement" in any sense of the term. You also keep mentioning the need for clan activities, which is somewhat contradictory to what you said earlier. What good are those going to be for you when you admit that running clan specific missions (i.e activities) are essentially a bother for you? I for one have been advocating for such things since the OP, so I find this....interesting.

Moving on, you are indeed very hypocritical. You state you do say why you recruit. So not giving a reason to recruit is still the same as recruiting for the sake of recruiting you said you DID NOT do earlier. Furthermore, asking for people to simply earn their keep is not DEMANDING in the least. By your logic, it seems you want me to just say "Hey. Join our clan. Don't do anything. Also, please waste our time.".On the notion of the "help" you mention. I still stand by what I said earlier. A handout every now and then is debatable, but when you keep rewarding without the "earning" portion, you're only doing them and the community a disservice. The chance that they'll attain any initiative decreases every time you "help" them. Your intentions are indeed good. However, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

The only one twisting words here is you it seems. My "narrative" you mention has been unwavering thus far. Furthermore, treating people well does not make you a better person or foster teamwork by itself. I'd actually make the argument that people that disagree, actually accomplish things together, and have mutual respect that turns into high respect does the that. You can treat people nicely just as much as those people can use and abuse you, or worse - you can turn the person you're "treating well" into one of the many charity cases.

On a final note, If I am making cans seems more undesirable, I say so be it to be honest. Some people don't need to be in clans. That's a sad fact. Now that I think about it, those same people who are viewing them as undesirable are most likely clan hoppers anyway. That being said, it's not like they're exactly IN a clan anyway. Also, I think it'd be a GOOD thing for such people to make their own clans and stop polluting the clans that actually want to get things done and/or be established long term. I'd wager that it'd do them (and everyone else) more good than harm, by instilling some sense of pride and accomplishment for actually having to earn things for themselves. Maybe the things DE have in the works WILL hash things out tho. Nobody can say for sure. What we do know, is that stopping people from leeching BP's is only one of many other issues with clans.

 

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

4 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

No, you did not. I know the OP is kind of a mess, layout-wise, hard to read, but going through it 3 times in a row, you do make some points abundantly clear, all true, just not "fixable" and you don't make it clear that the example is vague, quite the contrary. More importantly, I'm pretty sure you don't remember what you wrote. Or how you wrote it 😄 Because MR system for clans with running missions with a clan mate is not a "clan-specific alert". You phrased it all around the notion of coercion, hell-bent on restricting access to your hard earned valuables to the undeserving and while you argued onward against people pointing that out, you did systematically return to the same pimple.

You can't fix humankind. You just can't. It's broken beyond repair. Accept that our trashy nature slipped into the games we're playing at full strength and try to focus on things that can make this virtual environment more pleasant.

I can agree that the OP could've been laid out better, but saying it is hard to read makes you seem rather deficient. I admitted earlier (prior to you stopping by) that I do not frequent the forums and was ignorant of how things work and such. However, I'd like to clear this up now - My propositions mentioned in the OP ARE NOT and end all be all fix. This is why it's in the feedback category.....It's my feedback of what I've observed/heard in hopes of making things better.

Rest assured. I'm not trying to "fix" human kind. That's a fool's errand. At most, I want to influence the community down what I believe to be a more positive path. I do accept that our trashy nature has slipped into games. What I DO NOT accept, is the fact that we can't have a better way to sort those people out accordingly. Also, making the virtual environment a better place?.........Literally what I've been on about since the beginning....so yeah....

[Himenoinu]

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

You also keep mentioning the need for clan activities, which is somewhat contradictory to what you said earlier. What good are those going to be for you when you admit that running clan specific missions (i.e activities) are essentially a bother for you? I for one have been advocating for such things since the OP, so I find this....interesting. 

Imagine you'd log in and the rewards would be conditioned by you running 3 Defections, 3 bounties and 3 fissure missions. That the next day you'd be required to gather 50 iradite, catch 20 norgs and hunt down 5 ashen kuakas before receiving your 1 neurode 'login reward'. How does that sound to you?! Will it fit in with our behavioral response to rewards?
Compare this with the missions' alerts that we have, where you can opt-in, but then again, choosing not to run any doesn't give you a bad rep - not that day nor ever. It's the difference you can't or refuse to see, between optional and compulsory.

 

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I just want to point out that you mentioned MR as a useful stat to know.

I'mma point out that seeing the player's profile from gear leveled to syndicate standings is enough to get the idea that you want to have. "A person's true nature" falls into the "humanity is broken" category - in and out of the virtual space, so you shouldn't even bother questing for it 🙂

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

What good are those going to be for you when you admit that running clan specific missions (i.e activities) are essentially a bother for you?

Why you keep twisting my words is beyond me... I admit that mandatory activities for inconsistent rewards (like being able to stroll through a guild hall). are a bother.
On the other hand, though, if I team up in a guild with like-minded players - be it for 24/7 fishing, Lunaro matches or pushing the limits of the warframes - then I don't need the confinement of a clan ranking (that's based on randomly cycled daily tasks).

Compulsory clan dailies =/= clan activities. Both of us want a higher purpose for the clans (which isn't difficult seeing how the current does not exist). Past that though, you want loyalty through regulations, I want a naturally evolving team cohesion.

4 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

You state you do say why you recruit. So not giving a reason to recruit is still the same as recruiting for the sake of recruiting you said you DID NOT do earlier. Furthermore, asking for people to simply earn their keep is not DEMANDING in the least. By your logic, it seems you want me to just say "Hey. Join our clan. Don't do anything. Also, please waste our time.".On the notion of the "help" you mention.

On the notion of the "help" I mentioned, "Players helping players" really is an alien concept to you. I recruit for the sake of helping and I'm not even expecting them to stay too long since our clan was composed by 2 people - hence not much to do other than getting some BPs and some info before moving on to greener pastures. 
More important, my lady and I worked on doing all the research (bar Hema). It was fun and rewarding on its own each time a new BP was available to us. Our newest guild mate, however, is slightly unhappy that he has almost nothing to contribute to in the guild. So it's not really a handout - allowing new players access to your labs - but rather depriving them of the purpose the clans sorely lack overall.
By my logic I don't want you to say anything along that line. But rather "Welcome! Have fun!" If fun is to be had and the people's mindsets match, it's all that's needed. For everything else, there's the "kick" option.

Anyway, let's move past that, shall we?! And conclude that for control freaks a "# of clans joined" could be an added tool to the player's profile, but more importantly, a lot of clan-focused activities are badly needed outside of the dojo. Activities that, like the raids I never got to run, would require guild crafting, guild coordination and will reward guild related stuff (be it blueprints for special decorations, new rooms, etc) on top of some rare cosmetics and/or gear that would justify grinding them for a long time (kinda like the Mini-Dhuum from GW1).

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

I see you HIGHLY exaggerated my clan specific mission idea out of proportion. I never once specified if they were daily or not. If anything, that's more closely related to the loyalty system I first mentioned. The only difference is that I DID NOT and AM NOT advocating for something as menial as a "login" rewards be gated excessively. At most, I'm advocating that a tier list of sorts be laid out for what and how much a recruit can attain. The clan mission/alert system I have in mind should be optional for additional rewards and mandatory to unlock things already unlocked before joining and/or having a chance to be donated to.

Getting back to the player profile argument, I refer to what I stated earlier - you can NEVER 100% know what a players intent in general, BUT displaying the things I asked for would objectively IMPROVE the odds. I'd also like to add that saying I should not pursue finding something specifically requested is essentially saying we should just let anyone in. This is dismissing the goals and/or purpose clans in general unless they don't already don't have any to begin with.

30 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Why you keep twisting my words is beyond me...

I refer you to the following...

10 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Demanding of me to run X missions with other clan mates that are either doing something I don't like or things way beyond my MR is dumb.

Keeping in mind I simply stated run "a mission" with clan mates without specifying any MR requirement. These are your words not mine. I was not twisting them when I said you find running a mission with a clan mate is a bother to you unless it benefits you immediately. Your attitude in this portion is clearly geared towards selfishness rather than team orientation.

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

On the other hand, though, if I team up in a guild with like-minded players - be it for 24/7 fishing, Lunaro matches or pushing the limits of the warframes - then I don't need the confinement of a clan ranking (that's based on randomly cycled daily tasks).

Compulsory clan dailies =/= clan activities. Both of us want a higher purpose for the clans (which isn't difficult seeing how the current does not exist). Past that though, you want loyalty through regulations, I want a naturally evolving team cohesion.

As I sated time and time again, I never once specified if my ideas down to a T for clan missions and such. All I did was give vague examples such as run a mission with a mate, trade with a mate, sortie with a mate, etc., basically ANYTHING involving actually contributing and interacting with the clan a recruit "claims" to be interested in. Again, for the "unlocking" portion of things already earned by older members, the missions could be static and ongoing. An easy way to think of this is the junction requirements. The only difference is that these would require FAR less effort. There is nothing compulsory or "confined" about this. If you feel "confined" to a clan, then you were only in it for yourself to begin with - not jolly cooperation. I'm NOT calling for loyalty through regulations.  I'm simply calling for systems to be in place to make the concept of teamwork more appealing. I'm quite literally asking for more rewards in general all things considered.

47 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

On the notion of the "help" I mentioned, "Players helping players" really is an alien concept to you. I recruit for the sake of helping and I'm not even expecting them to stay too long since our clan was composed by 2 people - hence not much to do other than getting some BPs and some info before moving on to greener pastures. 

 It's just as I said in one of my recent responses. You're not simply helping them, but your intent IS inherently good. You're perpetuating the charity cases polluting the community. You are doing them a DISSERVICE in the long run. Helping is not an alien concept to me at all. The only difference between us is that I seek to build people up vs. handing out consolation prizes that match the grand prize so-to-speak. Think of it this way. IRL we have a lot of adult fully able bodied beggars. Everything you donate to them, they're less likely to become independent and actually do something about their situation. More surprisingly, we have "professional" panhandlers who just choose to game the system. This is much like the "leeches" in Warframe. That being said, you are inadvertently a part of the problem by helping perpetuate the problem itself.

56 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Our newest guild mate, however, is slightly unhappy that he has almost nothing to contribute to in the guild. So it's not really a handout - allowing new players access to your labs - but rather depriving them of the purpose the clans sorely lack overall.

If DE actually implemented the junction-like unlocking systems that call for TEAMwork  I mentioned, I can almost guarantee that new recruit would feel more grounded and crucial to the clan as a whole. Also, giving someone something for nothing is by definition charity (i.e. a handout), so you can't honestly debate that.....

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

But rather "Welcome! Have fun!" If fun is to be had and the people's mindsets match, it's all that's needed. For everything else, there's the "kick" option.

 I'd argue that if having fun is your primary objective, then your clan lacks purpose to begin with. In my experience, fun is the byproduct of having something to achieve. Moreover, it becomes a more appealing and bonding experience when implemented correctly. That being said, I'd argue that there'd be less of a need to kick people over and over had there been better systems and place and genuine like-minded people to work with in the 1st place.

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

Anyway, let's move past that, shall we?! And conclude that for control freaks a "# of clans joined" could be an added tool to the player's profile, but more importantly, a lot of clan-focused activities are badly needed outside of the dojo. Activities that, like the raids I never got to run, would require guild crafting, guild coordination and will reward guild related stuff (be it blueprints for special decorations, new rooms, etc) on top of some rare cosmetics and/or gear that would justify grinding them for a long time (kinda like the Mini-Dhuum from GW1).

In closing, warlords are being trying to be more responsible and efficient when asking for such things - not "control freaks" as you put it. You could not honestly look me in the face and tell me that adding this stat to a stat page WOULD NOT help at all. The goal here is simply efficiency. As far as everything else in this statement, I agree. HOWEVER, I think they need to heavily add incentives and activities that call for AND reward TEAMwork. It seems like every time you reference my ideas, you purposefully assume the worst case scenario disregarding the positives. 

[Himenoinu]

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Keeping in mind I simply stated run "a mission" with clan mates without specifying any MR requirement. These are your words not mine. I was not twisting them when I said you find running a mission with a clan mate is a bother to you unless it benefits you immediately. Your attitude in this portion is clearly geared towards selfishness rather than team orientation.

My negative attitude is aimed at the "demand" part. Not at the actual activity with the clan mates. State demands this of us, job demands that, etc. The only people that don't demand are friends. I like to play with friends, not with the state or with my boss 😉

2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

 I'm simply calling for systems to be in place to make the concept of teamwork more appealing. I'm quite literally asking for more rewards in general all things considered.

Yes, more appealing. we're disagreeing on a thing we both want - funny enough - in roughly the same shape and form. Clan activities. Only rewarding someone for doing the thing the clan is doing is not making whatever the clan is doing more appealing. Simply because it's the rewards that tickle the senses of the clan mates, not the activity itself. Create activities that requires a clan to participate (that is, no solo, no invite only, no friends only, no public, but clan only). Scale activity with the clan size - where small clans go in as few as 2 and XXL clans would need a team of 6 (for example). Everything oughta be focused on the activity with rewards being also focused towards the clan, not the individuals. Individual rewards would be received as part of the mission loot (as I was saying before, cosmetics of sorts - with the drop chance comparable to Condition Overload).

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

It seems like every time you reference my ideas, you purposefully assume the worst case scenario disregarding the positives. 

Because you seem to only see the worst case scenarios everywhere:

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

You're perpetuating the charity cases polluting the community.

Funny thing is, trusting no one ever leads to a very unpleasant experience. Some players might get the wrong idea, some might be motivated by your gesture. From there onward, it's just a matter of you deciding when enough is enough.

Let's take an example here. Say there's a new player who's sorely lacking everything, from basic gear to mods, to knowledge of how this or that works. I'm gonna give him (or her... or it) a boost, by either just givin' access to our labs, or by donating a prime frame that is currently vaulted (even more so if that warframe would help us in the long run). From there onward, it's teamwork - chasing vaults, running eidolons - whatever's required to prep up the player. But the runs will be more enjoyable if the player doesn't bring an MK-1 Paris and Excalibur to Hades.
I helped the player be a more efficient team mate. Sometimes it can end bad. Sometimes it doesn't. Kick function still helps and I never regret offering help.

So yeah, focus on the actual game experience/activities not on means of policing the players. The activity itself has to feel rewarding, not just the loot at the end of it.

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

 I'd argue that if having fun is your primary objective, then your clan lacks purpose to begin with.

My clan had a purpose, as we created it upon joining WF. It was obtaining the blueprints. It's the only purpose the clan has currently. The whole purpose of playing the game is to have fun. Not to enroll in a virtual army with strict rules and regulations 😉

3 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

That being said, I'd argue that there'd be less of a need to kick people over and over had there been better systems and place and genuine like-minded people to work with in the 1st place.

I'd agree with you if you didn't prove you have your words with you. Systems like the ones you need help those who can't talk well - or those who don't know how to listen. Otherwise, you can mostly figure out on your own without any computer assistance if you share goals or intentions with another player. Yet you insists of artificial systems that handle the conversation's role for you, so that all you'd need to do then is to scoop up 3 clan mates and do whatever you're in the mood for. (Please note I'm exaggerating here for the fun of it).

Recruitment should never be done en-mass, yet somehow this is the preferred way of doing it all across the mmo-verse. It's the fault in the system. And it's not the developers' problem 😄

[Dark.Chaoz.Bringer]

19 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

My negative attitude is aimed at the "demand" part. Not at the actual activity with the clan mates. State demands this of us, job demands that, etc. The only people that don't demand are friends. I like to play with friends, not with the state or with my boss 😉

The issue here is two-fold. By definition, you are correct. Asking that you do something to unlock something is indeed a demand. However, I AM NOT advocating that this process be demand-ing. More specifically, i never asked that it require a TON of your time or effort. I gave very simple tasks as examples earlier. If you view the examples I mentioned or the process of unlocking things in general as demanding, it begs the question of how/why you progressed in any game so far. Secondly, you forget that in the grand scheme of things, a clan is a TEAM system. With that in mind, clans CAN just be the same people on your friends list, BUT in an efficient clan your clan mates are not JUST friends -they are your PARTNERS.

29 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Only rewarding someone for doing the thing the clan is doing is not making whatever the clan is doing more appealing. Simply because it's the rewards that tickle the senses of the clan mates, not the activity itself. Create activities that requires a clan to participate (that is, no solo, no invite only, no friends only, no public, but clan only). Scale activity with the clan size - where small clans go in as few as 2 and XXL clans would need a team of 6 (for example). Everything oughta be focused on the activity with rewards being also focused towards the clan, not the individuals. Individual rewards would be received as part of the mission loot (as I was saying before, cosmetics of sorts - with the drop chance comparable to Condition Overload).

 I agree with the first portion 100%, which is why I merely gave my own ideas/examples. As I said in my previous post, my ideas ARE NOT an end all be all. Clearly, my ideas are somewhat flawed, but the premise seems just thus far. Moreover, I do agree that the activities need to be fun. I thought that pretty much went without saying to be honest. There's a reason I never asked for a HEMA 2.0. The last portion is very confusing to me. At first, you state that individuals should not be rewarded. You immediately follow that up with they will be rewarded anyway via mission loot. Either that's a contradiction or I'm misunderstanding. Please clarify, I actually find this to be the second actual piece of legitimate input for a "fix" on this thread so far.

39 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Because you seem to only see the worst case scenarios everywhere:

Cite one. I only gave observations and facts so far. I haven't exaggerated like you at all, aside from some of the examples I used. You do it to the point where you just make hasty assumptions.

44 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Funny thing is, trusting no one ever leads to a very unpleasant experience. Some players might get the wrong idea, some might be motivated by your gesture. From there onward, it's just a matter of you deciding when enough is enough.

This is true. That's why I said that a freebie every now and then is debatable. On the other hand, this is also why I said continuously giving handouts is a disservice to the individuals in question.

49 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Let's take an example here. Say there's a new player who's sorely lacking everything, from basic gear to mods, to knowledge of how this or that works. I'm gonna give him (or her... or it) a boost, by either just givin' access to our labs, or by donating a prime frame that is currently vaulted (even more so if that warframe would help us in the long run). From there onward, it's teamwork - chasing vaults, running eidolons - whatever's required to prep up the player.

Like I said before, a freebie every now and then is debatable. The giving of knowledge and helping those via cooperation of them helping me help THEMSELVES is more what I agree on. My idea is to make people more independent, cooperative in team based activities, and experienced overall. You can give someone all the power in the world, but it's no use if they don't know how to use it or improve afterwards. They get lost and move on to the next "helper".

59 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

But the runs will be more enjoyable if the player doesn't bring an MK-1 Paris and Excalibur to Hades.
I helped the player be a more efficient team mate. Sometimes it can end bad. Sometimes it doesn't. Kick function still helps and I never regret offering help.

The "enjoyment" mentioned here is subjective. Saying the runs would be more efficient would a more accurate description. However, it is an objective fact that using the low tier weapons and working your way up helps players gauge themselves performance-wise much better than simply handing out a Tigris Prime or something to anyone that asks for it. I'd even go as far to say that this is what kills enjoyment of he game for most players. They start the game, get donated "OP-ness" (*insert whatever fits hear), get used to the OP-ness, then view anything else they get from that point on as garbage and not fun. Learning, growing, and achieving all play a part in the enjoyment factor. If someone still has the MK and starter frames at Hades, chances are they should not be there in the 1st place due to lack of exp - NOT gear that makes it more "enjoyable". I keep forgetting who made that quote, but it still rings true to this moment -  "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.". Trust me when I say I believe your intentions are VERY good.

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

So yeah, focus on the actual game experience/activities not on means of policing the players. The activity itself has to feel rewarding, not just the loot at the end of it.

Clans were MY primary reason for starting this thread in the clan feedback category. Clans are a part of the game experience. As far as clan activities are concerned, I gave some examples (not end all be alls). There's not much more I can do aside from doing DE's job for them. Furthermore I'm not asking to "police" players. I'm asking for ways to help clans better find what they are looking for and those looking for clans to find better fits. To paint a better picture, basically everyone my clan turns down would be better suited for your clan. We'd all have an easier flow of things, by decreasing the odds of us running into folks who do not share similar focuses. Everyone (wins most of the time) with my idea. Also, I do agree that the activities should be fun. THAT, however, IS DE's job. All I can do is give my examples and ideas. It's up to the people to have a discussion and DE to decide on if/how to implement any if at all.

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

Systems like the ones you need help those who can't talk well - or those who don't know how to listen. Otherwise, you can mostly figure out on your own without any computer assistance if you share goals or intentions with another player. Yet you insists of artificial systems that handle the conversation's role for you, so that all you'd need to do then is to scoop up 3 clan mates and do whatever you're in the mood for. (Please note I'm exaggerating here for the fun of it).

Let's use another example here. Let's say I'm interviewing someone to teach little kids. I DON'T ask for a resume, background check, or anything of that nature. Me and this person just have a VERY detailed conversation. How do you think it's going to look when I hire this person and they commit an act pedophilia? This could of all been avoided had I had access to and used a resume/background check. My point here is that NO amount of conversation can trump stats. I can say and "fake it to make it" that I'm the best Street Fighter player in the world, but you'd be a sad viewer watching me at EVO lol. I am not exaggerating when I say numbers (or stats in this case) do not lie. You seem to be confusing clan recruiting and regular team recruiting with the "just pick up and go" mindset. This is why I kind of wish there was a separate tab for clan recruitment and normal team recruitment. That a WHOLE other tangent tho lol.

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

My clan had a purpose, as we created it upon joining WF. It was obtaining the blueprints. It's the only purpose the clan has currently. The whole purpose of playing the game is to have fun. Not to enroll in a virtual army with strict rules and regulations 😉

You admit to what I stated prior. The process of obtaining the blueprints was fun. The fun was goal oriented and achievement based. Assuming you had little to nothing handed to you, you also bonded in your experiences with your mates. Simply put, the fun had was a BYPRODUCT of doing the things. Very rarely is a game meant to just be fun in and of itself. There are goals and achievements to be had. Furthermore, I am not advocating for an army with strict rules and regulations. That;s another one of your hasty assumptions. Personally, what my clan wants are dependable people and/or those willing to put in the EFFORT to become such people. If asking for people to be wiling to "git gud" as they say is wrong, then I do not want to be right.

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

Recruitment should never be done en-mass, yet somehow this is the preferred way of doing it all across the mmo-verse. It's the fault in the system. And it's not the developers' problem 😄

Recruitment should be done to any volume a clan wants. It all depends on a multitude of factors, so it varies if that's efficient or not. That being said, whether or not that is the preferred way is irrelevant. More importantly, if it is the fault in the system and the developers created the system, how is it not their problem to fix?