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Loyalty and Purpose


Dark.Chaoz.Bringer
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7 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The last portion is very confusing to me. At first, you state that individuals should not be rewarded. You immediately follow that up with they will be rewarded anyway via mission loot. Either that's a contradiction or I'm misunderstanding. Please clarify, I actually find this to be the second actual piece of legitimate input for a "fix" on this thread so far.

Clan alerts would be, in my mind, missions of various types (preferably not the same ones we run for everything else in the game, but rather something that would tie-in with the clan narrative) and they'd reward clan/dojo items, crafting mats and blueprints that you can get nowhere else, nor can you trade. Say, you'd mix a bit of spying - or a bit of sabotage - and survival at the same time. Based on the tileset, people would get blueprints for new building components, with a very small chance of the actual room plan. It could be a vestige of any of the factions or - even better - a new lab. Weapons/armors/arcanes, whatever that lab produces would need more incursions into that faction's controlled territory to get bits and pieces of information (like the cephalon scans). There'd be then the blueprint for the item itself that would require some other mats (that also drop exclusively in clan missions). Or they could require some type of batteries for whatever gear or maybe decorations that, again, are available only there (in the clan alerts). Crafting mats for whatever blueprint and/or the batteries could behave like argon crystals and be the only items that end up in the players' inventory, while everything else gets transferred directly into the guild's vault.

Now for personal rewards, you can toss in something (preferably not something that will resemble the 100001 copies of captura scenes like we have in (E)SO). It could be a noggle, a sigil, maybe even a sugatra - all with an almost demoralizing drop chance. I added this for the players that fit in a guild like an elephant in a cherry tree.

Ideally, this kind of alerts would get enriched when a guild themed relay rebuild event would come up (instead of random syndicates doing our work for us - seeing how the relay belongs to the tenno). It would have more substance (as the contributions would be way bigger than 5 struts and 1 scan quest). It would have a more pleasant landing area, with flags of various shapes and sizes showing the sigils of the guild that contributed the most (scaled accordingly to their actual size), while the top guild would have its colours and sigil all over the place, a trade room exclusive for guild members, where the taxes are halved and a small % standings buff on all syndicates tasks launched from within the syndicates' rooms in that relay. The invasion cycle would be accelerated and more serious, so that there's a higher chance for the relay to be destroyed.

Clan alerts would convert a portion of the affinity gained by participants into "credits" used to rebuild the relay. Daily conclave standings could also be transformed into currency during the construction phase (scaled so it's relevant, but without allowing for leeching or random other exploits that may be possible there).

Oh, and on the idea of clan-rebuilt relays, for the peace of those worried about leeching, the clan-room access key would only be acquired by those who have actively participated in a certain number of related tasks required during the reconstruction phase.

Loyalty and purpose achieved without the need for extra policing or background checks. Clearly though, this ain't gonna happen in our lifetime and, as it stand right now, any systems for enforcing loyalty or dedication towards a clan are superfluous, since there's very little incentive to actually join a clan (after one has already chewed through everything the dojo labs have had to offer).

 

7 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

More importantly, if it is the fault in the system and the developers created the system, how is it not their problem to fix?

Because, using your example, recruiting 1000 people a day to work in a giant factory by just parsing through their stats is certain to land you a lot of poorly qualified employees. You dedicate, during an interview, a certain amount of time for every candidate. Yet the guild recruiting is usually done in a "LF fresh meat! we have cookies!" kind of way. It's a system put in place by people wanting to grow their guild fast - maybe too fast - ignorant of what the consequences might be. It's the people's fault if their way of recruiting for their guilds fills their baskets with a serious bunch of bad apples. True though, the devs could limit the # of people a guild can recruit in a day to 1...5 based on the guild size or something like that. That would fix 2 problems. 1) It would probably stop the shifting of the blame from the rushy recruiter to the unqualified recruit. 2) it could be convincing the recruiters to be more careful in the people they pick to even interview in a day, let alone recruit - especially when the overlord (how you called it) is lashing them to grow the guild's size fast.
 

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2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Daily conclave standings could also be transformed into currency during the construction phase (scaled so it's relevant, but without allowing for leeching or random other exploits that may be possible there).

I agree with almost EVERYTHING you mention about clan alerts EXCEPT this. Conclave needs a revamp before we even mention that word again. Let's just stay silent on that aspect as to not give DE any ideas on how to make it relevant again without fixing it. I can most definitely get behind this premise as a whole tho. Very good input indeed.

 

2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Because, using your example, recruiting 1000 people a day to work in a giant factory by just parsing through their stats is certain to land you a lot of poorly qualified employees. You dedicate, during an interview, a certain amount of time for every candidate. Yet the guild recruiting is usually done in a "LF fresh meat! we have cookies!" kind of way. It's a system put in place by people wanting to grow their guild fast - maybe too fast - ignorant of what the consequences might be. It's the people's fault if their way of recruiting for their guilds fills their baskets with a serious bunch of bad apples. 

I agree that most warlords DO recruit that way. This is why I made reference to the large "joke" clans that exist (probably before you joined this thread: not sure). This is usually the "happy panda bear fun time" clan ads you see. However, just as you said, I dedicate a certain amount of effort to recruiting. I actually take it more seriously so-to-speak. I DO NOT lure people in with the proverbial cookies. Our ads are pretty specific for what we want and what we're about. We don't even put the term "friendly" in the ads.When using said cookies, it IS the people's fault. Clans that DO NOT said cookies STILL run into some of the same issues. The system is most definitely flawed. Had there been an improved way to weed through the time wasters, there'd be a MUCH higher chance for clans and recruits to find stability across the board. As things are now, clan hopping is similar to that of h-oes changing clothes - done often for "cookies"/ smash n grabs. The only difference is that clan hopping has no negative  effects on the non team oriented people just gaming the system. It's the devs responsibility to say "Hey. This is a TEAM based system. If you're not interested in joining on or making your own to do the dirty work, STOP gaming the system.". However, they will never do that due to the need/want to pander to the casuals/noobs/on and off again leeches, in order to maintain and frequently cycle an audience for "numbers" sake.

3 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

True though, the devs could limit the # of people a guild can recruit in a day to 1...5 based on the guild size or something like that. That would fix 2 problems. 1) It would probably stop the shifting of the blame from the rushy recruiter to the unqualified recruit. 2) it could be convincing the recruiters to be more careful in the people they pick to even interview in a day, let alone recruit - especially when the overlord (how you called it) is lashing them to grow the guild's size fast.

 This is a good premise with bad implementation. The number of people recruited should remain uncapped. The number of clans people can JOIN SHOULD BE CAPPED to some degree. I do admit that your solution as is WOULD most likely have the effects you mention. On the other hand, this WOULD NOT solve the large pool of clan hoppers. My solution would make people that don't want to do the ground work for creating a clan take JOINING a clan more seriously. it would be more closely related to job hunting or opportunity shopping in general. That being said, I'd even go as far to say that I think my solution would get aspiring members to learn such valuable life skills. They'd actually do their homework on who their joining by joining a Discord, checking the clan forums, checking the clan's stats other than just research, etc. Since people couldn't just hop in a clan a day anymore, I think this would have either 2 effects on the community: 1) People looking to just game the system would opt out and go on about their business due to viewing the new system as "too much of a hassle". OR 2) People would get more serious about clans and wise to the "hey we got cookies" premise mentioned prior.

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2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I think this would have either 2 effects on the community: 1) People looking to just game the system would opt out and go on about their business due to viewing the new system as "too much of a hassle". OR 2) People would get more serious about clans and wise to the "hey we got cookies" premise mentioned prior. 

I suggest then that both sides need systems in place, just so both - the recruiters and the potential recruits - are more careful with their behavior. Restricting one side while allowing free reign to the other is bad, given the human fabric, as it can lead to other ways of abusing the system. Further more, you can't (or rather shouldn't) implement any restrictions or regulations on something that currently has so little meaning/purpose.

Now one of the simplest ways of doing that - pouring some purpose into the clans - would be to tie the syndicates to them.

  • Give'em dojo rooms whose blueprints the clan architects can purchase for the clan. I'd say, even better, also add a mission key for 50k standings that every member of the team needs to have equipped to access a storage room in the syndicates' planet node once a week (or in a mission layout similar to the Razorback's). Each player can contribute the materials obtained from the mission for the room's construction and the materials requirement will obviously scale with the clan's size (Each clan would need to donate an amount of materials equal to its maximum players capacity). There would be no other costs involved and once the contribution is complete, the room could be built instantaneously.
  • Give some % of extra standings when doing tasks for the syndicates the clan is affiliated with. Give that same % of the standings to the clan's reputation with those syndicates.
  • Make tiers of friendship just like with the players that require muuuch bigger contributions and as a primary result lead to a improved syndicate room (visually, increasing the room's size on the Z axis - so as to not require much more space around it at the initial construction - but requiring mats from the offerings and/or from the mission type described above to actually build it past a scaffold stage).
  • Secondary effect would be having syndicate tasks for the clan, that only increases the clan's standings with the syndicate (could still drop marks in the missions for the players to leech some benefits). The missions will always be of sortie level. They'd be capture, rescue, sabotages and assassinations, where the team would be often hunted by the enemy's zerg spawn (more than once/mission) - at adjusted levels. But also spy missions that would have a very small chance to reward dojo/clan blueprints on 100% stealthy C rotation runs. Excavations, survivals and defense (not of cryopods though) that reward small amounts of dojo/clan crafting mats for the BPs mentioned above (here, the chances of them dropping would increase with every full rotation by a small margin and every - let's say - 3 rotations there would be a chance for a BP that benefits the players (even just a cosmetic, like a syndicate skin for some weapon).
  • And obviously, tiered offerings that are clan specific, at pretty high costs (scaled to the clan's size) and are on a random rotation every fortnight (some materials and decorations). As the clan's syndicates' favor increase, the members would get access to certain syndicate specific gear or cosmetics that would be permanent (a Secura Lanka from Perrin, for example), but removed upon leaving the clan.
  • Purchasing offerings from one syndicate in a week would restrict access to the wares of the others. Players could still buy consumables that aren't available in the normal offerings (via the orbiter). Like a mobile shield/ammo/energy dispenser, syndicate representatives summoners, maybe a summoning stone for the zerg that they hunt their enemies with - things that could benefit long lasting missions. Maybe temporary syandanas (similar to the banners carried by medieval Japanese warriors) or skins for pets/sentinels that are removed when the clan makes a major transaction with another syndicate.
  • Based on the relays' layout, the clans could not affiliate with more than 3 syndicates (or with syndicates that are direct enemies of each other).

I'll stop. It's too early in the day for daydreaming and - seeing how the chances of such things happening are slim to none - also unhealthy.

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11 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

I suggest then that both sides need systems in place, just so both - the recruiters and the potential recruits - are more careful with their behavior. Restricting one side while allowing free reign to the other is bad, given the human fabric, as it can lead to other ways of abusing the system. Further more, you can't (or rather shouldn't) implement any restrictions or regulations on something that currently has so little meaning/purpose.

That's fair. I'm all about equivalent exchange. Also, my idea was to implement the meaning/purpose, regulations, and overall revamp all in one go - just making that clear if I didn't before.

As far as all the clan changes you mentioned - YES YES and more YES!!! You may have just not only contributed to this clan issue in general, but given DE some framework of how to make syndicates good (or better depending on how you feel) again.

And don't give up dude. When there is a will, there is a way. Too many people have that defeatist mindset, which is why I think we're in this proverbial dump. I really do think that if more people were vocal, DE would listen to those that care vs. listening to the more currently vocal "whineres" and/or casuals if you will. I know I may come across as a jerk, but I assure you that much like Thanos (horrible example I know, but I still understand him), I DO care.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Dark.Chaoz.Bringer:

DE would listen to those that care vs. listening to the more currently vocal "whineres" and/or casuals if you will

Imo you are the "whiner" here.

Before i saw this topic, i never saw anybody complain about people being able to get the Blueprints without doing something for it.

And like you can see, there is literally no one that agrees with you so far, everyone who answered in this topic basically said that they dont care or are even willing to give stuff away for free, and even if they agree that there should be more that can be done in/with clans, it shouldnt be implemented in a way that you propose.

 

So, go mobilize all the people that are deeply hurt because someone takes their precious Blueprints without doing something for it, or just stop crying and accept the fact that no one agrees with you or cares about this.

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On 2018-08-30 at 6:48 AM, DreisterDino said:

I have said everything i wanted to say.

Clearly that was a lie. I couldn't resist lol.

41 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Imo you are the "whiner" here.

How is asking for improvement on a system whining? This is the feedback section. I've added constructive feedback.

43 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Before i saw this topic, i never saw anybody complain about people being able to get the Blueprints without doing something for it.

Just because people choose not to speak up about an issue, that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. More importantly, the blueprint fiasco was only ONE of the issues I mentioned so far.

46 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And like you can see, there is literally no one that agrees with you so far, everyone who answered in this topic basically said that they dont care or are even willing to give stuff away for free, and even if they agree that there should be more that can be done in/with clans, it shouldnt be implemented in a way that you propose.

I was never here to pander to people. I'm here to provide feedback in hopes that improvements can be made. Moreover, yes - most people did share the same mindset of not caring about such things. That being said, there's yet to be a valid counter argument. The only "argument" concerning free stuff has been just as you said - "I don't care.". Furthermore, I made it very clear in and since the OP that more than "stopping ppl from getting our precious bp's" was needed. I suppose the portion about clan alerts and what-not skipped your mind or you  just didn't care again. Also, like I explained to the last fellow - I NEVER said my possible idea for a solution was an end all be all. At, most it was a mere example of sorts of what I think would work. As I stressed already - this is the FEEDBACK section. I provided feedback - not THE final answer.

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

So, go mobilize all the people that are deeply hurt because someone takes their precious Blueprints without doing something for it, or just stop crying and accept the fact that no one agrees with you or cares about this.

This isn't about being "hurt" at all. It's actually quite the opposite. This is very much a passionate endeavor. Also, as I mentioned previously, this is much deeper than someone taking my "precious bps".So far, you've given no constructive feedback other than saying I'm wrong about x,y, and z. I'd even go as far to say that you are the one who is "hurt" here for whatever reason. @Himenoinu 's last post is an excellent example of actual feedback. Please actually bring something to the table. Don't just "attack" an idea. Counter it with what you think is a better one OR justify the system as is.

 

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Personal attacks while outside of ToS (basically) are our favorite weapon. I too have started by attacking not your ideas but your person - mostly out of a personal aversion towards those kind of systems that you were initially suggesting. Systems that can easily be both abused and avoided (which is why they usually lead to more player frustration). So there's that. "I don't like your suggestion so hek off!" is the easiest way to give our input. It's also the way we're reacting to pretty everything - from politics to policies - pointing out the bad stuff and going to be happy to have been a caring member of the society.

Now, I think that the main reason why people tend to do both things - that is demanding nerfs or other means of gating the player experience AND attacking the person askin' for this - is as simple as it is demoralizing. The nerf hammer seems to be the developers' favorite tool of fixing their game. Nerf drop chances, nerf abilities, nerf mods, nerf standings, nerf the nerf. And sometimes some nerfs are not necessary, but just the devs' tendency of pandering to some type of players or another (kinda like how Bioware decided to butcher every woman's face in ME:A to look good in the eyes of some portion of the population). And when that happens, the gamers will leash out against both. Leading to more resent. And as such, it's people's thought that these nerf (be they visuals or functional) should not happen on request, but rather based on the devs' own tests and observations (kinda like how they were happening in GW1).

The other reason is also pretty obvious. It's easy for devs to answer a demand to nerf something that exists. It's not that easy to make a whole system like the ones I was suggesting.functional and integrate it in a game that is already quite complex, with plenty of fixes still waiting to happen. Rethinking the whole clan/syndicate activities - as good as it may sound - would require months of design, more months of testing, more weeks (at least) of major bug fixes... hell! just look at SO/ESO - and that was basically just a timed mode extermination mission happening in a defense-like arena.
 

7 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Counter it with what you think is a better one OR justify the system as is.

With the counter being taken care of, the above tries to find logical explanations to the attacks (both on ideas and their proponents) and the justifications for the system as it is has been previously given, but it boils down to a few things.

  • Clans as they are right now are a mere means of doing something in the game without actively grinding for whatever for a part of the playerbase, a means to ascend in MR and get some extra toys to play with for new players (which was my case) or the end result of players playing together for a while deciding to have easier way for forming up teams and organizing runs.
  • Among all the things that devs have (or should have) to look at, reorganizing the clans or syndicates (or both!) isn't really top priority, as much as some of us would like that to be the case. Enemy scaling, excessive grinding on some things, the permanent threat of a host migration, melee rework, Fortuna, story, might I say again the word that should not be named? Conclave activities (yes, Lunaro too, being a massive wasted fun potential) - all tend to be a more pressing matter than someone bailing out of a clan - with or without any loot from the lab. As such, people would argue against both the proponents of the clan fixes and the proposals, in an attempt to make sure that the more burning issues don't fall even further down the priority list.
  • Lastly, with so many things mentioned above on the to-do list, rethinking the clan mechanics to give them purpose might feel a lot more like SO or Khora (hell! even the current event to some extent) - a band-aid. "Band-aid'ing is bad", to paraphrase the grey warden Alistair. When such a thing goes live, people will, at best, "meh!" at it. The a second layer of band-aid will come - and feel like ME3's Extended Cut. Same "meh!", but all caps 😄
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14 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Personal attacks while outside of ToS (basically) are our favorite weapon.

This is a sad fact. I'm FULLY aware.

In reference to the nerfs mentioned, I just want to preface the rest of my response with the fact that I'm not necessarily calling for nerfs. I'm calling for reorganization and buffs if anything - an overall revamp if you will.With that out of the way, I'm aware of the dev nerf conundrum. I don't agree with that process either. Multiple nerfs and/or nerf pandering almost never seem to be the optimal solution. 

14 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

(kinda like how Bioware decided to butcher every woman's face in ME:A to look good in the eyes of some portion of the population).

NEVER speak of that "thing" again. We DO NOT speak of such.....evil.

The rest of your post here seems pretty spot on. It basically boils down to "They don't have time." and "There are bigger fish to fry.". Firstly, I'm not asking for Rome to be built in a day. I see no reason why a small portion of the team can't at the very least START working on the fixes mentioned thus far. This could take 6 months or so for all I care. It'd just be nice to know if they hit us up in a devstream and at least let us know they have heard us and are working on a solution vs. seemingly saying "Screw it. We don't have time.". Personally, I don't think time itself is a valid excuse for not improving when we're dealing with a product that has no known expiration date. Secondly, yes - there are PLENTY of bigger issues with Warframe. My counter to that is that this is the CLAN AND DOJO section of the feedback category. I'm pretty sure people can (or do hopefully) address them in their respective categories. With that being said, I'll happily bring up any clan issues (that I think exist) in the appropriate feedback section. Lastly, I just wanna say that ignoring the problem is never a valid solution either.

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Am 3.9.2018 um 12:20 schrieb Dark.Chaoz.Bringer:

This isn't about being "hurt" at all. It's actually quite the opposite. This is very much a passionate endeavor. Also, as I mentioned previously, this is much deeper than someone taking my "precious bps".So far, you've given no constructive feedback other than saying I'm wrong about x,y, and z. I'd even go as far to say that you are the one who is "hurt" here for whatever reason.

Ok, on the complete first page of this topic everything you talk about is people taking your hard earned Blueprints, everything you write revolves around this.

Yes, you threw the word "Teamplay" in a few times and you talk about "strengthen bonds" here and there, but you didnt explained what this should be.

The one time you explained what you think teamplay and strengthen bonds might be was this:

Zitat

On top of that, there should be some type of "checklist" (WITH rewards of course) that tell the newcomers help out in some way (helping another clan member in a mission, donating to some research, trading with a member, etc.) - simple stuff at least.

And i explained why this might not be a good idea or why i will not fullfill its purpose.

You say:

Zitat

Still curious to know other player's, other developer's, and DE's opinions. I'm also, VERY open to any counterarguments.

But when someone explains to you why something you say might not be a solution to the problem or that the problem simply doesnt exist in a way you describe it, that person becomes

Zitat

the other guy who tried to discredit my argument

 

 

You ask:

Zitat

I suppose that whole concept of me wanting to foster and encourage teamwork skipped your mind?

No, it didnt skipped my mind, me and another person replied to why "your way" of encouraging teamwork might not work.

Zitat

this is the FEEDBACK section. I provided feedback - not THE final answer.

You are right, it is the feedback section. And the concrete suggestions you made so far wont help the clan life.

Of course most people agree that "more purpose to clans" might be nice, but if you open a topic like this you should come up with suggestions.

None of the repliers "attacked you as a person", we were responding and talking about your suggestions.

Edited by DreisterDino
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8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Ok, on the complete first page of this topic everything you talk about is people taking your hard earned Blueprints, everything you write revolves around this.

I admit that I stuck with this as a consistent example of sorts. However, I did so, because I figured it'd be an obvious flaw to spot and hard to dispute. This has been the case thus far. Since you've been here seemingly since the start, I assume you've kept up with the banter. With that in mind, it's safe to say that you KNOW full well that this is much deeper than just my hard earned bp's. More importantly, this still doesn't discredit anything I've brought up.

Edited by Dark.Chaoz.Bringer
Mistake
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8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Yes, you threw the word "Teamplay" in a few times and you talk about "strengthen bonds" here and there, but you didnt explained what this should be.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I'm quite literally just trying to implement it in the most basic way teamplay is know. Teamplay - interacting with your team. More specifically, playing with your team. I honestly didn't think the notion of cooperation needed explaining....

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

And i explained why this might not be a good idea or why i will not fullfill its purpose.

I honestly do not recall any valid counter arguments made on your part, BUT I will go back and check later. If memory serves me correctly, I think your 'argument' boiled down to "Nobody else cares.", which didn't counter much of anything. I could even argue that your argument is bogged down by this much like you claim my argument is bogged down by my bits about blueprints.

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

But when someone explains to you why something you say might not be a solution to the problem or that the problem simply doesnt exist in a way you describe it

This overall concept is fine. I've had no problem with this. Also, if someone tries to discredit my argument, what is wrong with referring to that person as "that person that tried to discredit my argument."? This seems like a painfully accurate description given you replied much earlier and knew who I was referencing.

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

No, it didnt skipped my mind, me and another person replied to why "your way" of encouraging teamwork might not work.

Like I hinted at before, I know the other person did, but I do not recall YOU doing so. Again, I'll have to check a bit later. Moreover, I stand by the fact that it did skip your mind at the time. Only just recently did you admit that I mentioned the term "teamplay".

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

And the concrete suggestions you made so far wont help the clan life.

You JUST quoted me saying my idea IS NOT the final answer. There's nothing "concrete" about it. It's open for improvement or replacement by a better idea.

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Of course most people agree that "more purpose to clans" might be nice, but if you open a topic like this you should come up with suggestions.

None of the repliers "attacked you as a person", we were responding and talking about your suggestions.

Earlier on, you very boldly stated nobody agreed with me and left is at that. Now, you;re saying that people do agree with me on some things....you're very inconsistent. Furthermore, my ideas ARE suggestions. Also, when your only argument is "Nobody cares.", "You're just hurt.", "Nobody agrees with you.", etc, pardon me, but that IS attacking the person rather than the ideas in question.

On a final note, I still stand by asking you to BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE. Critique my idea rather than simply saying it's wrong because it's wrong OR come up with a better one. Also, justifying the system as is is still a thing. I don't agree with the latter, but if you can do it, by all means do so lol.

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33 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Also, justifying the system as is is still a thing

Alright. Here's another way of doing that justification:
If raids come back (well, when). If Conclave gets reworked so as it's not just the place you go to get a syandana or for completion's sake. If content become either more challenging or more fit for highly specialized team setups with a much higher quality loot - not only harder to get (like the Axi S3 seems to be). If syndicates missions become more specialized requiring teamwork. If Railjack comes in with both - rewards and teamplay focused game mechanics. If Fortuna brings these. If the DS gets looked at and revamped... Well, if any of the above would happen, the need for a clan would come almost naturally, without anyone touching any of its current aspects or improving it in any way.

This whole thing would only address the issue of member retention. I doubt anyone would argue against giving the whole clan system more purpose, against connecting it more with the game's universe and lore - even more so in the light of recent events (from Vay Hek's ghouls to the brief return of Space Mom, to whatever is brewing on Venus). The entirety of the Origin System is preparing for war, while the tenno clans are busy decorating their guild halls and running fashion contests in the relays. It doesn't click.

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I agree to a high extent. However, the issue here is that this isn't necessarily justifying the clan system itself. Moreover, this is a major gamble of IF that all is actually good anyway. This is more along the lines of working around the problem rather than nipping the problem itself in the bud. I'd still argue that the caln system would need a revamp tho, regardless if all that you mentioned is great. Alas, this is MY opinion mind you. 

With all that being said tho, I DO have HIGH hopes for all that you mentioned to be great. Also, you just gave me an idea. You know how we can have hoverboards in the upcoming update? Imagine if they add a phuking skatepark room or aspect in general to dojos. That would be as the cool kids say, lit.

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2 hours ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I agree to a high extent. However, the issue here is that this isn't necessarily justifying the clan system itself. Moreover, this is a major gamble of IF that all is actually good anyway. This is more along the lines of working around the problem rather than nipping the problem itself in the bud. I'd still argue that the caln system would need a revamp tho, regardless if all that you mentioned is great. Alas, this is MY opinion mind you. 

With all that being said tho, I DO have HIGH hopes for all that you mentioned to be great. Also, you just gave me an idea. You know how we can have hoverboards in the upcoming update? Imagine if they add a phuking skatepark room or aspect in general to dojos. That would be as the cool kids say, lit.

AHahaha! After all, you are a lot more interested in purpose than loyalty! it seems plausible to you too that enriching the array of activities with some that require coordination and teamwork could actually fix the clan retention problems without adding any clan-related rewards or incentives.

I do support the idea of adding more than just a skatepark to the dojos. But let's take it in order:

  • First and foremost - for me at least - while improved, the clan decoration mode is... unpleasant because of the way you place stuff. The way the objects jump all over the place as you change your view (especially in small rooms like corridors) is literally nauseating. Adding a visible pivot point in the placement phase along with an option of restricting movement on each of the axis (similar to the rotation one) would make the whole thing much more pleasant.
  • Second issue with the decoration mode is the feeling I get of being given triangular shapes that I need to fit through square holes. Because of the default style of the dojo's rooms not being rectangular in a cross section because of the areas where the walls meet the floor and the ceiling, dropping - for example - an orokin wall there will either make the room a lot more narrow or it will leave an elevation difference that we don't really have pieces to fit in. Long story short, the building blocks of the decorations palette don't fit with the default tenno geometry of the rooms. A solution here could be to have in the decoration menu an option to selectt the theme for the room between the 4 styles we currently have for decorations (tenno, orokin, corpus and grineer). Each theme could require faction specific construction materials along with some PoE/Fortuna ones and would put the room back into "building" phase for a certain amount of time. Likewise, removing a room style will have a "destruction" phase mechanic.
  • Probably a major improvement in the mood of the dojo would be the option of adding population to it. Just like we're adding fishes to our room's tanks, we could donate them to the rooms than have water, we could have a few added decorations that would allow us to make small pet areas where the clan members could donate both cub and adult kubrows and kavats, but not just fauna. Maintenance staff. Some Steel Meridian personnel in the chem lab, some Perrin Sequence in the energy lab, New Loka npcs in the bio lab. Be able to add some npc from all the factions throughout the big rooms that would walk and/or have a conversation or something. (Maybe a few Red Veil npcs trying to smash a cephalon terminal being caught by the Arbiters...)
  • Add a Simaris room and maybe a Cetus room with representatives from the Quills and Ostrons factions that either give task or trade. And while at it, maybe add another way of increasing the dojo's size (something like the reactors, that you can build more than one copy of). As for the skatepark, make it similar to the obstacle course architect room, when the time comes.
  • Thinking about it, the Ostrons are being besieged at all times by the grineer, sometimes also having to deal with the infested. The relays are periodically attacked by both corpus and grineer armadas. It doesn't feel right that the only faction that has only enemies has its bases left alone by everyone. How come no one ever charges against the tenno?! If the syndicates would be tied to the clans, then the 3 syndicates that the clan isn't working with could sent saboteurs or whole armadas against the clan. The sentients could also invade a clan's dojo every now and then - the higher the cumulated standings with the Quills of the members, the the higher the intensity and strength of the attacks. Clan members would have to both contribute materials to the dojo for reparations and to take part in either a mission similar to Armada ones, or run something similar to the Relay rebuilding event. New BPs would be available for the clan members to build - some dojo systems -and contribute. Rewards could be a room that increases the dojo's maximum size or room decorations from the invading faction. Clan members who didn't contribute at all to the defense would be automatically booted from the clan and those that didn't meet the quota would have their dojo key removed, receiving an automated mail with a new pricey blueprint they'd need to build to regain access to the dojo. Losing such an event would lead to a certain number of rooms being made inaccessible (under construction) or just destroyed.
Edited by Himenoinu
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I fully support all of those ideas. Sadly, as you mentioned prior, this may all just be wishful thinking, but DAMN would that be friggin sweet! I'd honestly compromise with DE and ask that they just add a simulacrom and syndicate console (like in our ships) rather than the relay rooms themselves. That way they can cling on to making relays seems relevant while giving players more choice in such matters.

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On 2018-09-04 at 5:21 AM, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

The rest of your post here seems pretty spot on. It basically boils down to "They don't have time." and "There are bigger fish to fry.". Firstly, I'm not asking for Rome to be built in a day. I see no reason why a small portion of the team can't at the very least START working on the fixes mentioned thus far. This could take 6 months or so for all I care. It'd just be nice to know if they hit us up in a devstream and at least let us know they have heard us and are working on a solution vs. seemingly saying "Screw it. We don't have time.". Personally, I don't think time itself is a valid excuse for not improving when we're dealing with a product that has no known expiration date. Secondly, yes - there are PLENTY of bigger issues with Warframe. My counter to that is that this is the CLAN AND DOJO section of the feedback category. I'm pretty sure people can (or do hopefully) address them in their respective categories. With that being said, I'll happily bring up any clan issues (that I think exist) in the appropriate feedback section. Lastly, I just wanna say that ignoring the problem is never a valid solution either.

What you're suggesting, imo is more of a Clan issue. As in a Warlord issue. The problem lies not in the clan system, but in the Warlord's lack of attention to his own hierarchies. I founded my own clan, and have been picky with its members from the start, even running tryouts for new recruits. In that way, those who complete the five-part tryout get to feel actually accomplished for having been accepted, and thus, take it more seriously. They don't even have the ability to access the tech until their third rank. I also put up clan bounties to earn promotions. By bringing certain items to one of our warlords, (we have six, with a limit of ten, may seem like a lot, but we're all good friends and tend to stay out of one another's way when recruiting, promoting, etc.) they are given a single experience point, kept track of by us in a PSN message thread. 5 XP, and they rank up, earning new privileges, and with some ranks, new weapons and gear. 

Ex: Increasing your mastery rank by 1 nets you 2 XP, while turning in the current bounty item (Lex Prime BP or Reciever at the moment) gets you 1 more. Depending on their mastery, Ranking up could earn them Syndicate weapons or Primes. (Lex Prime is a frequent reward, as well as Braton and Burston Prime, unless the Clan member in particular prefers bows or throwing knives, in which case, we used to reward Hikou Prime, and still reward Paris Prime), that way they have real incentive. We've kind of tried to make our own game within the clan system.

As for improvements, I love what Himenoinu said about adding personnel and such. I want our dojos to be the new Relay, and I want relays gone, to the point where a clan is actually quite necessary, to ensure MAXIMUM LOYALTY lol. If our Clan Dojos were outfitted with everything the relays were, and the relays were simply deleted, gone, forever replaced, it would be a huge step in the right direction toward what I think clans ought to be.

Edited by (PS4)Private_Ventures
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This issue is most definitely a clan SYSTEM issue. In terms of recruiting, I point you back to the example I used in an earlier post of me hiring a teacher for little kids:

On 2018-09-02 at 8:58 AM, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Let's use another example here. Let's say I'm interviewing someone to teach little kids. I DON'T ask for a resume, background check, or anything of that nature. Me and this person just have a VERY detailed conversation. How do you think it's going to look when I hire this person and they commit an act pedophilia? This could of all been avoided had I had access to and used a resume/background check. My point here is that NO amount of conversation can trump stats. I can say and "fake it to make it" that I'm the best Street Fighter player in the world, but you'd be a sad viewer watching me at EVO lol. I am not exaggerating when I say numbers (or stats in this case) do not lie.

The main takeaway here is that anyone can fake it to make it. Meanwhile, statistics are set in stone and can tell much more about an individual than most believe.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

In that way, those who complete the five-part tryout get to feel actually accomplished for having been accepted, and thus, take it more seriously.

I admit that this style of recruiting is interesting, but given my last point above, it can still be all for naught anyway. My whole premise is to become more efficient in general - saving time and energy. Also, this could make things a lot more convoluted for everyone. We can skip the bs, see that we're on the same page, and get right into the nitty gritty. I figure we can do that with the information I asked for.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

They don't even have the ability to access the tech until their third rank.

I don't know of any rank that regulates lab or ascension access. If that's a thing, please enlighten me. From my knowledge, ranks just regulate permissions such as building, decorating, moderating, etc.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

I also put up clan bounties to earn promotions. By bringing certain items to one of our warlords, (we have six, with a limit of ten, may seem like a lot, but we're all good friends and tend to stay out of one another's way when recruiting, promoting, etc.) they are given a single experience point, kept track of by us in a PSN message thread. 5 XP, and they rank up, earning new privileges, and with some ranks, new weapons and gear. 

Ex: Increasing your mastery rank by 1 nets you 2 XP, while turning in the current bounty item (Lex Prime BP or Reciever at the moment) gets you 1 more. Depending on their mastery, Ranking up could earn them Syndicate weapons or Primes. (Lex Prime is a frequent reward, as well as Braton and Burston Prime, unless the Clan member in particular prefers bows or throwing knives, in which case, we used to reward Hikou Prime, and still reward Paris Prime), that way they have real incentive. We've kind of tried to make our own game within the clan system.

I do believe this is a decent system. However, this pretty much admits to the issue being a clan system issue by the fact that you had to create a new one yourself. I'd also like to add that you can't necessarily fault warlords for not doing such things. People have jobs, lives, kids, etc. The fact of the matter is that WE do not have time to fix DE's issues ourselves. More importantly, it's not a warlords' responsibility to provide everything in game for the rest of the clan in palce of the game itself. In my opinion, warlords are meant to GUIDE a clan to the rewards - not PROVIDE them. That being said, please note that I AM NOT against rewarding a clan. I just consider this more of a kindness ot bonus of sorts rather than a necessity or "fix" for non-existing game systems that do it. Farming rewards, ESPECIALLY for an entire clan, takes time that working people do not have. At that point, I wager that the warlords aren't even enjoying the game themselves and are essentially "working" another job at that point. If DE simply adds better systems or revamps the current one somehow, this can all be solved.

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5 minutes ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

I don't know of any rank that regulates lab or ascension access. If that's a thing, please enlighten me. From my knowledge, ranks just regulate permissions such as building, decorating, moderating, etc.

Tech limits prevent access to research, so by modifying hierarchies, you can really just allow them to wear the name of the clan, rather than immediately reap its benefits. Just Edit Clan Hierarchies and deselect Tech. Also Tactician, but that's pretty useless right now. Treasurer is another limit I keep on new recruits, so that they have to fund new decor themselves, rather than having access to vault resources.

 

I'm on console btw. I notice you're a PC player. I doubt they're very different though, aside from you guys getting cool stuff first 😉

Edited by (PS4)Private_Ventures
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56 minutes ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

If our Clan Dojos were outfitted with everything the relays were, and the relays were simply deleted, gone, forever replaced, it would be a huge step in the right direction toward what I think clans ought to be.

Not gone. Having similar purposes - forming for conclave and whatnot, meeting the arrogant bugger, allowing the running of Simaris bounties for the lone ninjas, behave as trade hubs (also for clanless players) and, further more, be the vector for clan-linked relay invasions, destructions and rebuilding (in case of a failed defense). The invasion cycle can't be shifted exclusively towards guilds, as it's a global routine/mechanic.

Also, if they added the relays and they furthermore added even some rebuilding event that (while needing a bit more fine tuning) can be tied in with the invasion cycle, I think that the relays are just like clans. Lackin' proper purpose and functionality. When raids were taken away because they weren't performing up to par, people weren't all happy. I wouldn't be happy with the relays gone because they can be a great addition to the game's activities with a bit of care and attention and I'm pretty sure that upon removal, they won't be put on a backburner somewhere, but completely out of mind.

Making clans a lot more desirable and relevant doesn't require removal of other features. Just fine tuning to start off and then a rather long stretch of content drops toward this goal 🙂

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19 minutes ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

Tech limits prevent access to research,

Woah there buddy! Last time I checked, that role only allows people to START research themselves. Pretty sure anybody can still OBTAIN bps and stuff by default. Either that is a new thing, the description in-game is not accurate, or you are sadly mistaken. I'm gonna check it out shortly tho. Also, don't worry. We're all console peasants at some point. Jk jk, I just couldn't resist a polite jab. Much respect Tenno brother from another space mother.

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1 hour ago, Dark.Chaoz.Bringer said:

Woah there buddy! Last time I checked, that role only allows people to START research themselves. Pretty sure anybody can still OBTAIN bps and stuff by default. Either that is a new thing, the description in-game is not accurate, or you are sadly mistaken. I'm gonna check it out shortly tho. Also, don't worry. We're all console peasants at some point. Jk jk, I just couldn't resist a polite jab. Much respect Tenno brother from another space mother.

You gotta be kidding me. They could access the labs the whole time?! I MISUNDERSTOOD THE WIKI? THEY'VE HAD LAB ACCESS?

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1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

Making clans a lot more desirable and relevant doesn't require removal of other features. Just fine tuning to start off and then a rather long stretch of content drops toward this goal 🙂

See, though, I don't just want them desirable and relevant... I want them deadly, exclusively necessary. But that's just me being a psycho Warlord. Then again, I'd love to see exclusive cosmetics and such for high-ranking clan members, just as sort of a pride thing.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Private_Ventures said:

See, though, I don't just want them desirable and relevant... I want them deadly, exclusively necessary. But that's just me being a psycho Warlord. Then again, I'd love to see exclusive cosmetics and such for high-ranking clan members, just as sort of a pride thing.

Unless the future WF content is highly tactical and challenging, "exclusively necessary" can only occur via relevant pvp interaction ('cause, you see, all them monsters out there are really good... punching bags which don't really hit back). And relevant pvp interaction leads to a Conclave discussion... or a thousand of them.

Tying the clans to the syndicates and the invasion cycles would make'em necessary for a full gaming experience, without punishing the lone ninjas out there (seeing how most of the loot they wouldn't get would be pretty much clan focused). Talkin' here about the 2 walls of text I've dropped on the previous page.

Another way that they could be more sought after would be a buff mechanic:

  • 5 to 40% more affinity, more credits or more loot, with an also variable duration of 30 to 90 minutes.
  • They would be utually exclusive buffs whose non-reusable blueprints would require some serious investment of rare materials (be they items dropped from assassination missions, from the C rotations of various aras (Mithra, Mot, Characol, Oestrus, Taveuni, etc) and a certain amount - that would obviously increase with the clan size, but also with its rank -  from an item available to purchase from syndicates for a paltry sum of 20k standings (say Perrin and Meridian would give the credits one, Suda and Loka the loot one and the other two the affinity one), so that no one warlord would be too happy to dedicate all his/her time to farm them alone (yeah, they shouldn't be already available in the game), Ideally every cartridge type would require different ingredients.
  • The blueprint could create a cartridge of sorts that would be inserted in the dojo in a new tenno structure with 2 energy bars - one that depletes after each use of a cartridge and recharges in 3 hours out of which 1 hour would be required for he device to cool off and one that depletes after 3 uses and it takes 12-18 hours to recharge upon depletion . It would spool up for 15 minutes and then activate the buff.
  • The clan rank would incrementally increase both the buff and its duration up to 60% of max, and the clan size the other 40%.

This would give your really high-ranking clan members something more than just some exclusive cosmetics. Of course, those could also be offered - the cosmetics - but maybe not based exclusively as much on rank as on monthly contributions to the clan (both in time and resources) and maybe even more fun, have those exclusive cosmetics be temporary and automatically rewarded every month. Syandanas or landing craft skins and, as a permament reward, a sigil who'd be static and dim if the owner is no longer being "employee of the month", but animated and brighter when he/she is.

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