[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

[Internet_Toughguy]

First the build I used in testing. I ran the 3 Sorties (PC) today solo using a 0 forma build: Corrosive Projection, Transient Fortitude, Intensify, Streamline, Vitality, Fleeting Expertise (rank 4), Prime Flow and Primed Continuity. The sorties were Mobile Defense, Exterminate, and Survival. I mainly used warframe abilities instead of weapons. Ability feedback in order:

1-Enthrall: This ability actually felt very good. The fact that an enemy, once enthralled, would attack for me and attract fire (as well as convert other enemies into Thralls, and buff me apparently) made the 7 Thrall limit a non-event mainly. My main suggestion is that Enthrall should be castable while using his 4 (Danse), since you are very vulnerable while doing so. The ability was great for Mobile Defense and Survival, and situationally useful for Exterminate.

2-Mesmer Skin: This is a fantastic defense tool. Very powerful, but it is clunky in the same way that Chroma's 3 used to be. It is also his only real defense, since he has no armor, and average HP and energy. This skill should be recastable while it has charges remaining, like Chroma's 3 by default. It is too important to require a future augment for this function. A future augment could perhaps make the cast time instant, since it is very slow. My other suggestion is to make Mesmer castable while using his 4 (Danse), since you lose charges fast and cannot cancel 4 and duck into cover in time to (slowly) recast it. Thus you die alot.

3-Reave: This seems like a great skill, but I rarely used it due to energy cost that could better be spent on my 4th ability. Perhaps it should be a free or discounted energy cast while using the Danse.

4-Danse Macabre: This is a powerful skill, and I found it very useful, however I have some suggestions. First, it needs a few meters of vertical hit above your plane of sight. Many times there were packs of enemies being buffed by drones overhead, and it would not touch the drones. So I jumped to higher elevation, but that lead to another problem: enemies below you "usually" get hit, but not always. This targeting AI needs to be more forgiving in the vertical sense. Also, after using Danse, your run speed is set to walk speed, that is a bug. Energy cost was actually not so bad, since it is strong enough at Sortie level to be used situationally and still be effective, from my experience. Finally, add a targeting reticle while using Danse, to accommodate suggestion 1.

[OricSharp]

Not surprised. Da'Mac'n could last for ages with some simple setups (Rage/Adrenaline, Efficiency, Quick Thinking for a safety) and aggressive use of Reave.

[Raskol]

With good efficiency setup (5 drain/s), primed flow and arcane energize r3 its not that hard to keep spinning

but...

its not as fun as it was, i mean it was the only thing that could convince me to him - now its like rly meh frame, ill use him as often as titana or wukong 

[superpin]

4. Danse Macabre: I like this skill a lot, it's really flashy and fun to use. The increased energy cost doesn't stop me from using it because it's not a problem with max efficiency + primed flow. It doesn't have any weird scaling that requires high strength so mod slots isn't an issue. The overshield pickups aren't an important aspect of the skill i think, because I generally don't have time making thralls. Modding for range is weird; apparently it increases beam thickness, but that usefulness is unclear. Intuitively a thicker beam and a thiiner beam hit the same amount of enemies because they both need to collide with the enemy. This means there's no point using range if I only want to use Danse Macabre; I can go max duration and still get the full benefit of the skill. A suggestion to increase build diversity is to instead allow power range to increase the laser fan's angle, and make the lasers fan vertically. This way adding range will give the skill more vertical reach, making modding for range more meaningful.

3. Reave: Kind of uninteresting and rarely used by me, like Rhino charge and Tidal wave. Yes it can heal, but it's kind of hard to control. I would like it more of it's steerable like Wukong's Cloud.

2. Mesmer skin: It's an all right defensive ability, but because it is not duration based, it's easy to forget to recast. The charge display is kind of buggy, sometimes blanks out even though there are charges left. Cast time is kind of long, and it's hard to notice enemies that get stunned. The zero cost for Entrall is kind of negligible as well for any Revenants built for maximum energy efficiency.

1. Entrall: It's ok.  Good for solo but unreliable in a team. Thralls get killed by team mates which is annoying, they are also hard to spot and can prolong a defense mission in the same way as mind control. In solo play it's a good defensive skill by distraction. 7 Thralls feels much better, and seeing them spread is nice.

 

I think Danse Macabre's is an outstanding skill compared to his 3 other skills. I would even say Revenant IS Danse Macabre, like how Ember IS World on Fire. I play this frame for that one ability, the others are just there.

The energy cost nerf for Danse Macabre doesn't do much to prevent players from spamming it with high efficiency high energy builds, but instead made many players crying about how he is useless now, etc etc. I think making something good and then nerfing it always leaves a bad taste, and it sticks like a bad odor.

His other 3 skills have uses but is overshadowed by Danse Macabre. They have some artificial synergy but that doesn't feel as good as the more organic synergy designs like Nidus's Larva -> Virulence combo.

Thematically I guess Revenant is kind of similar to an Eidolon teralyst. Entrall is similar to Terralyst's vomvalyst summoning skill. Killing thralls for health is kind of similar to consuming vomvalysts to heal up in the final phrase. Not sure about Mesmer skin or Reave though. Passive and Danse are siimlar to Teralyst as well. I think at this point it's too late to create new skills for Revenant, but on the slim chance that there is, there are other aspects of Eidolons to draw inspiration from: The big stomp that knocks back and the ground punch that produces tremors.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by superpin

[RS219]

Revenant is in quite a terrible position now if you ask me.

1) his cast animations for 2 and 3 are still obnoxiously slow,

2) Mesmer Skin feels like a reactive Iron Skin that doesn't last nearly as long,

3) Reave still does too little damage to uncontrolled enemies for such a high energy price (and good luck hitting more than 2 minions to make the most of it),

4) 7 is still too little for cheap expendable minion count, make it more like 10,

5) The increased drain on Danse Macabre is very punishing and NO WAY in hell am I going to cast Reave with it active (which, by the way, doesn't receive any discounted cost) and drain up all my energy even faster!

6) For a Warframe themed after Sentients (adaptive unkillable enemies) it's sad to see that he's actually very squishy with the bulk of his tanking capability in shields, with average armor and health.

7) His passive is crud because modded for shields, it's a challenge to get his shields depleted on normal missions anyway. It's basically just a Nova passive with a different trigger effect.

 

My suggestions:

1) Speed up casting times for 2 and 3,

2) Buff Reave to do a bit more damage to uncontrolled enemies AND reduce the energy cost!

3) Reduce the energy drain on Danse Macabre to 15 or something, and give Reave a 50% discount while DM is active,

4) Give Mesmer Skin more charges to fit closer to Iron Skin, or an invulnerability period of a few seconds when a charge is consumed (just like Simaris' armor-on-health orbs mechanic)

5) Change passive to making Revenant bleed DoT puddles on the floor as long as his shields are down or gain reduced damage to the most encountered damage types (like sentient fighters and shadow stalker). Reduce base shields, increase base health and armor. Maybe increase base energy too since his skills can get energy-hungry at times.

6) Make minions suffer from decaying health to eventually die (Shadows of the Dead drain mechanic) instead of losing enthralled status because a timer ran out. Still based on duration, so negative duration means minions die faster.

 

I REALLY wish the "ghost/vampire" thing wasn't forcibly tacked on an Eidolon-based frame.

Edited August 31, 2018 by RS219

[cursedmoon13]

In contrast to how most people seem to treat Revenant's 1, I like to think of it in a similar fashion to Spores. Yes, Spores, possibly one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Why? It all comes down to the spreading nature of the ability. When Enthrall is properly tuned (and properly used) I believe it should manifest as a wave, sweeping through the horde of enemies, turning friend to foe, and replenishing its numbers as your thralls disintegrate into pilllars of "fire". Being similar to Spores in this way, the ability needs a similar amount of tuning to work as intended*. Like Spores, you need the enemies to survive long enough to spread the affliction, else it fizzles, but you also need them to die, otherwise you end up with a sea of temporary allies accomplishing nothing. I have yet to try it after 23.6, but from feedback it sounds like it still fizzles out too quickly, but most of the proposed changes I've seen would push it too far the other way. Removing "friendly" fire it just becomes another Shadows of the Dead. A complete lack of a cap might lead to situations where every enemy on the map is an ally with no one to fight. Both would be boring. I still think the cap probably needs to be higher, and maybe thralls should be immune to AoE damage (like Zephyr's Tornadoes seem to be; seriously, fire a Launcher at them) and not targeted by certain auto-target abilities (world on fire, peacemakers, etc.) but it's definitely in the realm of tuning rather than sweeping changes.

I may have more to say after I've played him a bit more.

 

*presumably, from how it's designed.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

When he comes out on PS4, he will be a great addition to my load out slot entitled "Meme."

[LightningsVengance]

So uh... Revenant's 1. I personally think it should either have a max of 20 Thralls when Rev hits rank 30 or scale with power strength for a max of 20. 20 is a good number because so long as allies can kill enemies (which is okay due to the fact you can have 20) then you're never going to have so many that the map is over run.

[wyrmwx]

I'm just saying that it's hard to have 7 thralls when some dude decides to kill them because it's fun.

Make thralls immune to ally damage.

[RS219]

2 minutes ago, Mexusorian said:

I'm just saying that it's hard to have 7 thralls when some dude decides to kill them because it's fun.

Make thralls immune to ally damage.

While you have a point it's a bad idea to make that the case. If thralls are immune to ally damage a revenant might be able to troll interceptions/defenses by holding enthralled enemies hostage - and he has no off button to deactivate enthrall.

Maybe make thralls have damage reduction against ally damage - 90% or something. No damage reduction against Revenant's own attacks. Also increase the minion cap to 10 or more since this ability merely affects existing enemies, not forcibly spawning new NPCs like Nekros ult.

Edited August 31, 2018 by RS219

[Waterbeacon]

Just now, Mexusorian said:

Make thralls immune to ally damage.

No, their uses come from being killed and occasionally healing, we don't need ally immunity, we need more ways to spread and create them, that said I would not be against a 33% damage reduction from allies

[wyrmwx]

Только что, RS219 сказал:

While you have a point it's a bad idea to make that the case. If thralls are immune to ally damage a revenant might be able to troll interceptions/defenses by holding enthralled enemies hostage - and he has no off button to deactivate enthrall.

Maybe make thralls have damage reduction against ally damage - 90% or something. No damage reduction against Revenant's own attacks.

You'd notice that the wave can finish with thralls, because they are now allies. I've tested that.

[RS219]

Just now, Mexusorian said:

You'd notice that the wave can finish with thralls, because they are now allies. I've tested that.

Hmm, sounds like a good change happened somewhere I didn't notice. What about interceptions then, could those still be held hostage by a troll?

I think 90% damage reduction should be enough, unless you're in a squad full of memestrikers.

[wyrmwx]

1 минуту назад, Waterbeacon сказал:

 a 33% damage reduction from allies

Ok, if you think that's what is needed, at least make it 70%.

I was so enraged when 3 matches a row some guy killed them, and I couldn't mist/ray for shields.

[Cyv001]

I only have visual feedback for now, but mesmer skin could use some more oomph with how it looks. Right now all I notice is the tendrils on Revenant's left shoulder, which visually fits sentients, but not functionally. That's my understanding at least, since those tendrils usually indicate a sentient trying to latch onto material in an effort to restore parts of itself.

Regardless, if the tendrils are here to stay, maybe it'd be better if they were more prevalent on revenant's body while the ability is active.

[wyrmwx]

4 минуты назад, RS219 сказал:

Hmm, sounds like a good change happened somewhere I didn't notice. What about interceptions then, could those still be held hostage by a troll?

I think 90% damage reduction should be enough, unless you're in a squad full of memestrikers.

I like your idea, actually.

Interceptions are fine too. You can prove it by putting a mark on an enemy, and enthralling them - it'll change from "enemy" to "ally"

Edited August 31, 2018 by Mexusorian

[Waterbeacon]

Another suggestion for changes

Passive: Revenants thrall cap in increased by 2 for each player in his squad

Enthrall: Increase base cap to 10. Give them 33% damage reduction to ally fire. Death will spread the affliction to the killer. Wider radius on death pillar

Mesmer skin: give each charge 1k health. Breaking charge will Enthrall killer. Stun AOE around killer 

Reave: Restores 20 energy for each thrall death pillar passed over and 10 energy for going through a thrall

Danse Macabre: decrease energy cost to 13. Charged fire allows you to aim and focuses beams into one beam. Charged fire also decreases movement speed by a further 50%

[wyrmwx]

1 минуту назад, Waterbeacon сказал:

Reave: Restores 20 energy for each thrall death pillar passed over and 10 energy for going through a thrall

So use energy to get less energy?

Also:

2 минуты назад, Waterbeacon сказал:

Enthrall: Increase base cap to 10. Give them 33% damage reduction to ally fire. Death will spread the affliction to the killer. Wider radius on death pillar

In a world where a single shot can kill a 135 corrupted bombard, that's too little.

[Klaleara]

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

The Thralls are there to distract and die. They aren't there to deal much damage except to spread the affliction.

I don't actually think the Thralls distract at all.  The only times my Thralls seem to die is from players, and enemies just run past them.  Which I'm okay with.  Preventing enemies from getting to me is a bad thing hte majority of the time.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Klaleara

[wyrmwx]

5 минут назад, Waterbeacon сказал:

Danse Macabre: decrease energy cost to 13.

ALSO

It was that way but it had to be nerfed because press2win

That's too little for such a powerful ability.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Mexusorian

[Waterbeacon]

4 minutes ago, Mexusorian said:

So use energy to get less energy?

Yes, have you played Nidus? Kinda like that. If you hit only 1 then it's not much but if you hit a bunch you end up with more energy then before. 

4 minutes ago, Mexusorian said:

ALSO

It was that way but it had to be nerfed because press2win

That's too little for such a powerful ability.

And I guess so. For this idea it either decrease energy cost or give Reave the energy shenanigans 

 

7 minutes ago, Mexusorian said:

In a world where a single shot can kill a 135 corrupted bombard, that's too little.

Also a good point, could possibly be done in a way that scales the resistance based on your current number of Thralls

Like if you have 1 then it's immune but if you have 10 then it's like 50%

[Sahansral]

1) Casting Animations are too slow. Especially for reave. 

2) Reave feels useless. Revenants's killing potential and mesmer skin are sufficient to let him waltz trough starchart without needing healing. On the other hand ff you get under heavy fire in high level messions, 5-6 seconds to heal up hust isn't good enough without further cc, damage reduction or another gimmick.

3) Seven Thralls feels better. But Revenant really suffers from them getting killed by allies.

4) Increased costs for danse or ok, I guess. Staying there all the time in spin-to-win-form was stupid.But is there a point not having the stronger mode always on? What's the advantage in spinng around in basic mode?

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Sahansral

[wyrmwx]

Только что, Waterbeacon сказал:

Yes, have you played Nidus? Kinda like that. If you hit only 1 then it's not much but if you hit a bunch you end up with more energy then before. 

And I guess so. For this idea it either decrease energy cost or give Reave the energy shenanigans 

 

Also a good point, could possibly be done in a way that scales the resistance based on your current number of Thralls

Like if you have 1 then it's immune but if you have 10 then it's like 50%

NOW I like it!

[cursedmoon13]

After some further gameplay with him, thralls also need to be broken from and immune to ally CC. A thrall held in Bastille is nearly useless.

3 is too expensive as is. Reduce cost if intended more for traversal, give some kind of energy restoration mechanic if intended more for combat a la @Waterbeacon's suggestion.

[wyrmwx]

Also, you know how you restore the timer after each enthralled enemy?

Well, when enemies enthrall eachother themselves, the timer doesn't replenish.

I think it should be changed up to "+1 thrall = +5 seconds" if the thrall is enthralled by your unit, but the timer is fully restarted if you entrall by the ability.